Ford Techs, my windstar is not happy again.

[frkelly74]

Last time I had a repair project on my old Ford Windstar I got absolutely zero help from the Ford fan website, and zero help from the dealer, but From here, this site, I got a lot of encouragement and some sound advice. So here we go again. This time, I was driving to Kalamazoo in the rain and thinking how nice the old car was running and I hope it stays that way. well there was a big puddle and I hit it and nothing happened right away. But in a few miles the engine began to miss and run noticeably rough. then the check engine light started to blink. The light has been on for about 60000 and I have become accustomed to it, but it has never blinked before. So I got home and intermittently the light would steady and the engine would smooth out. I took it to Auto Zone to have them do their free test and right away the person said your battery is low , you need a new battery, which I knew was nonsense. there is plenty of power to start and the alternator is putting out 14.7 volts and can keep the battery charged. Besides it was new last spring.. So we went down the list of codes of which there were 24, most of which had to do with the antilock brakes and oxygen sensors. I wasn't concerned about those right now, I wanted to know about the engine missing. Finally it was discovered that cylinders 1 and 3 were misfiring. So I figured that the wires which were old must have gotten wet and were leaking. so I replaced the plug wires and this produced no change in the running of the engine. Is the next step replacing the coil module? Can that have fried from getting wet? Thank you for your trouble in advance.

[6bg6ga]

First of all places like Auto Zone have cheap analyzers that are famous for faulty codes. Don't trust them because they will have you replacing everything under the sun. Twenty four codes? I seriously doubt it. Engine missing after going thru deep water... yes, water will short out the plugs and or coil or both. It has been known to crack coils..been there in the company Ford van. Yes, missing will throw a code.
Replace the spark plugs also.

I lost coil packs two or three times in the Ford van simply because the AC dripped water on the coils and they developed a crack and then started to miss intermittently.

[s mac]

It could very well be the coil, also could be the spark plugs. Does it miss at idle, on a pull, cruise? A flashing check eng light does indicate misfire in progress. s mac

[frkelly74]

I did get the idea that the sales person thought they had a live one. " Look at all these codes" they said with a smile on their face.

It misses at idle, it misses worse under acceleration.

So it isn't unreasonable to go ahead and replace the coil pack? I really dread trying to remove the plugs from the engine block. I have heard horror stories about aluminum blocks and iron plugs seizing and messing up threads. I am getting so I can remove the cowl pieces in about 10 minutes.

[badbob454]

its been a while , if it has a distributor cap remove it and let it dry out , cant remember if the windstar has one or not , quit mechanicing several years ago

[454PB]

Faulty oxygen sensors can cause rough running. I'm not familiar with Windstars, but O2 sensors are usually mounted on the lower exhaust manifolds and could be affected by water.

[gmsharps]

Depends on how may miles you have on the plugs and the quality of the plugs that were installed. I have gotten 100,000 miles on a set of double platinium plugs and just after that time I started getting some missing on acceleration and plulled the plugs and I'm surprized they lasted that long. Cheap plugs do not last that long from what I have expierienced. If you change the plugs put a small bit of antisize on the threads and that will help a bit to prevent plug seizure.

gmsharps

[MtGun44]

It's likely the ignition, if it has a distributor, start with cap and rotor, then plugs. Bosch platinum plugs are cheap insurance,
last 100K for certain and are not expensive. Could be the coil, but I'd leave it last. If distributorless, does the code say
where the misfire is? Should be one cyl if it is just a plug, or a pair that share a coil unit if it is the coil, many coils feed
two sparkplugs - one is active the other fires at the same time which is on the exhaust stroke, irrelevant, it is called
the "waste spark", just keeps from needing more coils or a distributor. If the coil feeds two plugs, the two plugs
on the bad coil should look different from the ones that are working properly, perhaps oily or cruddy.

Bill

[Bullshop Junior]

I would say replace the coil. 1-3 should run as a pair from the coil doing that "waste spark" thing. Im not good at explaining. If i had it in front of me i could fix it.

Most of the winstars i have seen have the v 6 3.0 engine. If its new enough it will have s coil for each cylinder. The old one will have the single coil, witch if its causing the misd would make it miss on a pair of cylinders. I think on the 3.0 the pairs are 1-3, 2-5 and 4-6

[facetious]

That sounds just like what happened with the wifes Escort. It was a bad coil pack that was sorting out in side or some thing like that. A new one and it was good to go.

[robg]

spray on some wd40 on ht leads & distributor cap it might help ,if its got carbon leads replace with copper ones .that used to sort out my old capris<mercurys>

[6bg6ga]

Ok, take a look at what happened. You went thru water and it started missing. Throw away the WD40 and put on a new distributer cap and wires and plugs. Then see if it still misses and if it does replace the coil packs. You need to solve the problem and replacement of the cap, rotor and such is the proper way to cure the problem. One more thing...do not buy the cheap parts store cap because they are a iffy fit. Replace with an original Ford cap that will fit better than the aftermarket **** out there. Replace the spark plug wires with the EXACT factory replacement again available at the Ford garage. Aftermarket wires generally are an extremely poor fit...been there done that. Due to emissions and laws concerning emissions I highly recommend NOT using solid core copper wires. There is a reason for such wires and one is your radio and your neighbors radios and TV's.

Now, back in the 60's with the hot cars it was an accepted thing to replace the carbon wires with solid core wires. People didn't care if their spark plugs only lasted 3-5K miles or it the went thru caps and rotors like butter. The newer engines and engine control systems are designed for specific parts for a reason.

Now, the little parts stores do not have scanners that work well with OBDI or OBDII or OBDIII. They use a cheap little $100-150 scanner and it gives poor and questionable results that CANNOT be trusted. The actual factory scanners that GM and Ford have are extremely expensive and do not give a bunch of unusable error codes. Unfortunately the only way you can obtain 100% results would be to take the car to the ford garage and have them scan it. Having used such scanners along with the junk ones over the years I can attest to the fact that taking the car to the Ford garage can be a lot cheaper than replacing the list the junk store had.

Spark plug removal... the spark plugs were installed with anti-seeze compound on the threads and they will come out fine. When installing new plugs coat the threads with anti-seeze lightly and screw them in. Done deal.

[6bg6ga]

Forget about the oxygen sensor because that isn't the problem as you discribed it. Proceed with cap,rotor, plugs, and wires and then access operation.
If problem is still there the coil /coils have been damaged...replace. After this is all done access operation in both open loop and closed loop operation.

[vkopf]

I would second the oxygen sensor. I have a Windstar with 191,000 + on it. Had similar issues with missing and the flashing engine light. The oxygen sensor was bad which caused the exhaust system to overheat resulting in the flashing light.

[6bg6ga]

I would second the oxygen sensor. I have a Windstar with 191,000 + on it. Had similar issues with missing and the flashing engine light. The oxygen sensor was bad which caused the exhaust system to overheat resulting in the flashing light.


The fact that the engine was running fine before hitting the water kinda rules out the oxygen sensor. The flashing engine light can and will occur when the engine has been subjected to extreme miss condition.

The oxygen sensor malfunction in your car caused it to run lean and throw a code. It did not however cause the exhaust system to overheat. An overheat in the exhaust system will result from the cad convertor being plugged or partually plugged. Have seen them glow RED from a bad cad convertor. I can asure you that a faulty oxygen sensor will do the following. The engine will run rich, run lean. surge up and down from rich to lean but it will not cause an exhaust system any damage or heat up.

[6bg6ga]

With respect to engine lights..... anything can throw a code so to speak and the code can last for a while. Had a code from a bad gas cap which didn't go away after reset but returned. Took a OBDII scanner to come up with a gas cap code. The cheap scanners gave about 10 different problems none of which was correct.

Did I mention that I was a certified Tech in the past?

[SawmillJack]

It's likely the ignition, if it has a distributor, start with cap and rotor, then plugs. Bosch platinum plugs are cheap insurance,
last 100K for certain and are not expensive. Could be the coil, but I'd leave it last. If distributorless, does the code say
where the misfire is? Should be one cyl if it is just a plug, or a pair that share a coil unit if it is the coil, many coils feed
two sparkplugs - one is active the other fires at the same time which is on the exhaust stroke, irrelevant, it is called
the "waste spark", just keeps from needing more coils or a distributor. If the coil feeds two plugs, the two plugs
on the bad coil should look different from the ones that are working properly, perhaps oily or cruddy.

Bill


I would say replace the coil. 1-3 should run as a pair from the coil doing that "waste spark" thing. Im not good at explaining. If i had it in front of me i could fix it.

Most of the winstars i have seen have the v 6 3.0 engine. If its new enough it will have s coil for each cylinder. The old one will have the single coil, witch if its causing the misd would make it miss on a pair of cylinders. I think on the 3.0 the pairs are 1-3, 2-5 and 4-6


That sounds just like what happened with the wifes Escort. It was a bad coil pack that was sorting out in side or some thing like that. A new one and it was good to go.

I drove my Windstar through a large puddle not long after a major tune-up and the exact same thing happened. The coil pack on the Windstar is placed as to virtually guaruntee it will get wet if you drive like a normal human being. The coil pack shorted out and my son a Ford salesman at the time told me they were noted for that problem. I replaced the coil pack and didn't go boating any more, end of problem.

[Bullshop Junior]

I drove my Windstar through a large puddle not long after a major tune-up and the exact same thing happened. The coil pack on the Windstar is placed as to virtually guaruntee it will get wet if you drive like a normal human being. The coil pack shorted out and my son a Ford salesman at the time told me they were noted for that problem. I replaced the coil pack and didn't go boating any more, end of problem.

Need to put some 55ga drums on it so it floats better.

[tengaugetx]

If your van has coil packs on each spark plug rather than a central coil I would pull one and three and have them tested. I work at a Ford dealer (sales side) and we don't wash engines because of the problems associated with water and the coil packs. Send me a PM if you have a question I can help with.

[dagger dog]

If the MIL "malfunction indicator light" is flashing , the computer is sensing a misfire bad enough to harm the catalytic converter, if you replaced the wires and plugs, you probably have a bad coil pack, we "my boss and myself" replace Windstar coil packs on several cars a month, it's a common repair.

Yours should be a six tower pack and it's probably jumping fire across a couple of the terminals but make sure you replace the plugs first , especially if they have never been replaced, even platinum plugs wear out and can cause wire and coils to be stressed and break down, so protect your new wires and coil pack by replacing them.

# 1 3 5 are in the back 2 4 6 are behind the radiator in plain sight. #1 plug can be accessed through the steering rack hole in the right side of the wheel well it's easier with the wheel removed.

Some times you can take a spray bottle "windex" and spray the coil pack and that will start the misfire, if it's dark enough you can see the spark if it's jumping to ground, and some times even hear it snapping. But most of the Windstar coils I have seen go bad do it internally.

Don't worry about seized plugs those are common to the Triton V8's and V 10's

BullShop Jr has the ticket with the waste spark system and is probably correct on his 1-3 pairing.

[facetious]

When it went out on the wifes car it was a dry summer day. Just driving a long and bam started running like ****.

[dakotashooter2]

I find it sad that most of the dealer techs are so dependent on the electronic diagnostic equipments they can't develop any independent thought. I was having trouble with my dodge and had it to the dealer twice and they couldn't figure out the problem. I mentioned it to my buddy who does some part time work for a local mechanic and he told me right away what it was just based on my description of the problem. He told me thats a common problem and those sensors go out at about 100k. I had to wonder why a dealership mechanic didn't know that.

[6bg6ga]

I find it sad that most of the dealer techs are so dependent on the electronic diagnostic equipments they can't develop any independent thought. I was having trouble with my dodge and had it to the dealer twice and they couldn't figure out the problem. I mentioned it to my buddy who does some part time work for a local mechanic and he told me right away what it was just based on my description of the problem. He told me thats a common problem and those sensors go out at about 100k. I had to wonder why a dealership mechanic didn't know that.

Dealer techs are taught to use diagnostic equipment to pin point the problem efficiently and effectively. No customer wants to pay for parts that a independent thinking tech threw at the problem not knowing what the hell the problem was. It takes both the knowledge to evaluate the scanner findings as well the mechanical experience to solve some of these problems. The dealerships do want the customers to return in the future therefore the diagnostic analyzer is used eliminating a major portion of the guess work bill.

[dagger dog]

Test not guess !

[s mac]

I would also like to agree with 6bg6ba, being a Ford dealership tech, not to defend bad diag, but today's veh are very complex and many times require a computer to access information. Many times experience will aid a diag , but there is always something we haven't encountered coming thru the door. Please be patient. s mac

[dagger dog]

A little on OBD II codes, this system started 1996, all cars sold in the US has to have generic On Board Diagnostic capabilities. The codes are 5 digits, 1 letter 4 numbers, the letter designates which computer ,P= powertrain B=body, and there are letters for others, depending on the make and model .

Generic codes will have a 0 for the first number so a misfire on # 1 cylinder will read P0301, misfire on #3 will read P0303, P=powertrain computer, 0= generic OBDII code not specific GM Ford or Chrysler info. 3= the ignition system, 01= misfire on cyl. 1.

Some cars sold here have up to 12 or more cylinders so a P0312 would tell the reader that thre is a misfire on cylinder 12.

Misfire is a loose term for that specific cylinder not being able to produce the power of the other cylinders, the computer does an automatic cylinder rpm drop test.

So a P0301 could be a bad spark plug, spark plug wire, cap, rotor, the crank or cam sensors, (which can be in the distributor or engine block mounted if applicable) individual coil if COP (coil over plug) ,coil pack if it's a DIS (distributor-less ignition system), low compression,(burnt valve, worn rings, hole in the top of a piston) the driver which is, an internal switch in the computer that controls the switching of the coil to that cylinder. Loose or broken wiring between the components, bent sensor brackets, and those are just a few.

A manufacture model specific scanner is capable of reading problems with the climate controls, powertrain , body wipers automatic door openers, folding foot rails, wireless throttle system moon roof, convertible top etc.,etc. They have bi-directional controls where the mechanic can operate these systems and a lab scope so he can see the pattern and compare it to a good sensor (if that's what causing the problem). They can run into the $10,000 range.

So when a customer comes in my shop and asks about the "Magic Box" that can fix his car, I tell him the "Magic Box" will get me in the state then I have to find the county, the city, and the block where ball park is located".

The Federal government made the manufacture release a certain mount data by law, power train, emission controls, SRS = airbag seatbelts= (supplemental restraint system) and ABS= (anti-lock braking system) , the rest the manufacture sells to independent groups that make scanners once the model year goes out of warranty.

Generic P0400 codes are emission codes, catalytic converters, evaporative systems (gas cap loose) EGR= exhaust gas recirculation, and RARLEY cause any poor performance .

So give the mechanic a break, yeah I know some of them might be unethical, but find one you can trust and give him your business, he will do his best to take care of your problem.

[frkelly74]

Winnie is happy again. I want to thank everyone who gave information and encouragement to me and even those who posted the more cryptic remarks, so I could sort this problem out. I replaced the plugs with autolite double platinum and the coil pack because the 1 and 3 plugs came out brown instead of white like the other 4. misfires were indicated in those cylinders from the free testing also. She is running like a champ now, until the next thing goes haywire. Special thanks to 6bg6ga, s mac, gmsharps, mtgunner44, bullshop junior, dagger dog. They were especially helpful. And thanks to everyone else as well. I propose that there should be an auto repair section at castboolits, When you want to do something yourself , who better to ask for help from than someone who actually has experience doing it themselves. I love castboolits.

[s mac]

I hope they last you a while, but don't put Autolite plugs in again, Motorcraft is the way to go. {Not Bosch either}. s mac

[dkf]

Same company that makes the Autolite plugs make the Motocraft plugs. If you compare the two side by side there is a another clue there. I have used either Motorcrafts or Autolites on every Ford I replaced plugs on. However I do prefer the MC because of the nickel plating on the std platinum plugs. I agree on no Bosch though, for the most part they are junk.


OP. You should still get the DTCs read by a shop that has a good professional quality scanner. You could have other issues besides the misfires. I don't know what year you have but there are TSBs out for rust issues. These issues have lead to Ford buying back some Windstars. This only pertains to vehicles in the rust belt. Honestly the Windstar vans do not have a very good reputation. I would suggest getting into something else when you can.

Also if you did not replace the plug wires it is a good idea to do so if you plan to keep the vehicle for a while.

[frkelly74]

We got the rear axle replaced under recall. It was cracked where the control arms attach. We got some kind of reinforcement contraption glued and bolted on the front sub frames because of corrosion under the recall also. We also had the transmission rebuilt and I have put a rebuilt rack and pinion under it. The thing about a car that has problems is that you learn your way around it pretty soon. It is just a matter of what is next as far as I am concerned. Remember though, we have got 210000 miles on this wagon, that is not too unreliable from my perspective. I thought Autolite was Ford, or a Ford company.

[dkf]

We got the rear axle replaced under recall. It was cracked where the control arms attach. We got some kind of reinforcement contraption glued and bolted on the front sub frames because of corrosion under the recall also. We also had the transmission rebuilt and I have put a rebuilt rack and pinion under it. The thing about a car that has problems is that you learn your way around it pretty soon. It is just a matter of what is next as far as I am concerned. Remember though, we have got 210000 miles on this wagon, that is not too unreliable from my perspective. I thought Autolite was Ford, or a Ford company.

Sounds like you got a decent amount of service out of it. I just figured I would mention the recall because it is a safety issue. A guy on another local gun forum got his bought back by Ford because it was not repairable. A relative of mine got a lemon of a Windstar which he eventully unloaded. I always thought the Windstar was a nice looking vehicle but Ford cut some corners and made some stupid decisions on them like they did on some other models. Anything to save a penny.

I don't really know what Fords affiliation is with Autolite however I know they were recommended replacements in manuals years ago. All I have had is Fords same with my family. I do the repair work and maint on half a dozen of them and they have all seen Autolite plugs at one time or another.

[TXGunNut]

I thought Autolite was Ford, or a Ford company. -frkelly74

It WAS, now it's a Fram company. There aren't many companies that actually make spark plugs these days but Motorcraft plugs are made to the latest Ford specs.

[MtGun44]

I have had many years good service from Bosch, currently use Bosch platinum and get 100K or more
on a set. Frankly, I have not seen any particularly bad plugs out there. I get good service out of
the OEM plugs on new cars, but replace with Bosch platinum when the time comes.

You broke the code when you found two plugs that looked different that shared a coil unit. That is
the proof. Glad you sorted it out.

Bill

[dagger dog]

Most name brand platinum, iridium, in general plugs that can go 100,000 miles, will do so. There are some specialty plugs, double even triple ground electrode types that need to be replaced with the OE plugs, and can cause some problems if you change types.

Bosch,NipponDenso,NGK, are all of good quality and I like to use them in the imports and try to replace with the OE brand. The same with the domestic, GM=Delco Ford=Motocraft Chrysler= Champion.

With the latest design engines that have variable valve timing, split plane manifolds, most are labor intensive to replace spark plugs, some have to have the upper plenums of the intake manifolds removed to access the plugs and minium labor times start at 2 hours X the shop labor rate demands the use of the best plugs you can afford.

Those brands mentioned above and Autolite, I have replaced by the thousands, if a customer doesn't want to spend the few extra bucks to use the OEM I usually recommend Autolite for the price point.

I can count on my hands and toes the warranty replacements I've had to do ,due to an electrically or construction defective new spark plug.

That experience runs from 1976 to 2013 and from the original air cooled Beetle, Mazda rotary engines, Porsche 911's ,Jaguar V 12, to the run of the mill soccer mom's Chyrsler mini van, and dads Ford F150 4.6 L V8 , and the kids, Honda Civic and Toyota Yaris.