Adapting milsurps to scout scope-

[Bert2368]

I have just got a Leatherwood/Hi Lux LER scope and one of the replacement rear hand guard mounts for Garand made by Fulton Armory. I like what I've seen so far.



http://i559.photobucket.com/albums/ss31/Bert2368/Mobile%20Uploads/photo.jpg (http://s559.photobucket.com/user/Bert2368/media/Mobile%20Uploads/photo.jpg.html)

I'm interested in setting up my '03 Springfield similarly- And possibly the K-31 and M-96 Swede. My eyes grow old...

Has anyone got experience with the Brenshok mounts and/or S&K mounts for these rifles? And whatever other no drill, no stock modification scout scope mounts for milsurps are out there??? The old B-Square #18432 for the '03 is gone but someone else may be copying it?

How good in your experience are any of these against loosening under recoil? What did you REALLY need to do to keep them on in regular use, locktite? Baling wire?? Welder???

With a small scope and lowest possible rings, how high did your cheek weld end up? Did you need an add on cheek piece to get a stable position using these with the original military stocks?

I hope to spend as little time as possible "reinventing the wheel", any practical experiences with these types of mounts that can be shared on this type of project would be appreciated- I've found bits and pieces of info while searching here & on other websites, getting a wide range of real world experiences documented in one place would be useful for others going down the same road.


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(edit)
Super scout rail: Doesn't require permanently modifying the rifle, doesn't get in the way of loading the clip or ejecting the brass.

http://www.fulton-armory.com/handguardrearsuperscoutrail.aspx

Leatherwood 2-7x32 extended eye relief scope:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/761874/leatherwood-hi-lux-atr-long-eye-relief-scout-rifle-scope-2-7x-32mm-2-plex-reticle-matte

Here's a collection of WWII M1 Garand marksmanship training films- Starts with how to use that sling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoZ_usoFVSc&feature

[PointandClick]

I don't have any personal expereince with it (my K31 should show up tommorrow!), but the St. Marie clamp on mount seems to be pretty highly regarded for the K31. It does place the scope off center to the right, however.
http://www.swissrifles.com/~swiss-sights/

[opos]

Look at SK mounts...I got no dog in the fight but have SK mounts and no hassle...no drilling and tapping and for me...no zero change or looseness issues...I'm in the process of buying one for my Garand (old and tired eyes)...

[leadman]

I have an SK mount on my K31. It made the scope sit up too high so Jim in Phx milled the top of it at least a quarter inch, probably more. It is ok now especially with the Boyd's laminated stock I fitted to it.
One of the members here, The Dutchman, made a scope mount for my 1891 Arg. Mauser that sits the scope as low as possible. I don't know if he is making these but he did have quite a few models.
Both have been very secure with no loosening or shifting of zero. Stay away from the aluminum scope mount sold by CDNN for the Mosin Nagant rifle. It shifts around quite a bit as the aluminum bends from the tightening of the screws.

[Lead Fred]

I bought every scope mount available for my Garand.
Everyone got sent back.
Still using the NM irons

[303Guy]

It shifts around quite a bit as the aluminum bends from the tightening of the screws.These things need to be bedded on epoxy or Loctite or something hard before tightening the screws.

I had a one-piece see through mount for my mini-14 which had one screw in the front piece and one in the rear. It had to be bedded on epoxy before tightening the screws and that thing never moved with all the action slamming taking place under it. It was high which I liked with the short stock. It gave me a chin weld with my head up straight. I never missed with that rifle.

[leadhead]

I have a Brenshok mount on my K98 and it is rock solid. You can still use
the open sights under it if you want to. And best of all... no drilling or tapping.
Denny

[JRR]

I have the SK on one of my Mausers. Solid and easy to instal.

[chuebner]

I have a Darrell's K31 mount I modified to fit my Swiss G1911 and an S&K for a K31 and Finn M39. All mounts are rock solid. I also use Loctite on all the screws.

[Bert2368]

Thanks everyone!

Things I'm still curious about- What scopes did you end up being happy with, what height/type rings worked well and what did the eye relief end up really being? How high did the line of sight through your scopes end up? And did you need to add a strap on cheek piece with the military stock to get a stable cheek weld?

Looked at member "the Dutchman"'s site, some mention of lowering everything as much as possible there.

http://dutchman.rebooty.com/karlina.html

And here's something that isn't on line, the Brenshok mounts price list as of October 2013. Dan can be reached at dano5058@hotmail.com for questions or order information, he has been very helpful and quick to reply.



Brenshok Product Mail/Internet Prices - *Oct, 2013


SCOUT SCOPE MOUNTS:

Enfield*•*#1 Mark3, 2A - $75 (special order)

Finnish*•*M39 - $75

Mauser*•*Israeli FN - $75 (special order)

Mauser*•*K98, K98k - $70

Mauser*•*Checz CZ/VZ-24, Yugo M24-24/47-M48,
****Turk 38 , Argentine 1909, Other FN style - $60

Swedish Mauser*•*1896 & 96/38 with dial - $65

Swedish Mauser*•*1896 & 96/38 with slider - $70

Swiss Schmidt Rubin*•*K31 - $60

Swiss Schmidt Rubin*•*K11 - $70 (special order)

Mosin Nagant*•*M38, M44, M91/30, M91/59 - $50

Mosin Nagant*•*Polish Trainer (3/4" screws) - $50


TRIGGER. BLOCK:

Trigger Block: Mosin Nagant including Finn - $30


Special order models require $20 deposit to start work. *Normally takes up to three weeks to complete. *We will contact you if there is a delay. *Please provide phone number and/or email address. *Orders that must be shipped are $7 shipping/handling.

[DanM]

The NCStar 2-7X pistol scope has perfect eye relief for scout mount applications. Actually a bit short for 'arms out' pistol shooting but just right for a scout. As for quality, USUALLY they are fine. One that I received had a crooked reticle which I sent back and they replaced it quickly. I have not broken one yet, but obviously they can't have the durability of a Leupold, Burris, or other more expensive scopes. Be aware that most regular pistol scopes will have too much eye relief to get a full sight picture in scout applications. I have an SK mount on my M95 steyr which is a kicker and also on an M48 and both are fine....DanM

[MT Gianni]

How about a 95 chilean small ring? Anyone making decent ones?

[Larry Gibson]

I adapt Weaver, Leupold, Redfield and Burris bases to fit (Spanish Destroyer, Swede M38 Scout and M91 Argentine scout). I also use factory scout bases where practical (M1 Carbine, AR, M94 Carbine and FR8)

Larry Gibson

[IROCZ]

I have had the Brenshok mount with a Hi Lux on my M48 for about 6 months and several hundred full power 196 Yugo rounds and countless handloads and am very pleased with it. It is very solid.

[AMraider]

I have several Brenshock mounts and cannot say enough good things about them and Dan's knowledge.

jeff

[chutesnreloads]

Have a S&K with the cheap chinese scope they sell on a M48 I'm very pleased with.It does require more of a jaw weld than a cheek weld but it is still quite accurate and holds zero solidly.Have a '96 I will do same with plus possibly a add on cheekpiece.No complaints with the S&K mount.

[Larry Gibson]

Adapting a scout scope to a milsurp is fairly easy as we see. However, simply putting a scout scope (or intermediate eye relief scope) on a rifle in a forward position does not a "scout rifle" make. Unless the scope is mounted correctly it is just an aid to sighting more accurately and not to the quickness of aiming that is fundamental to the scout rifle concept.

On a true scout rifle the ocular lens must be as low over the front receiver ring as possible. allowing the eye to instantly see through the scope as it is mounted/shouldered. If you mount the rifle and then must move your eye/head up/down or back and forth to find the field of view the scope is not mounted for true scout rifle use. There is a world of difference in quickness and sighting ability between a simply forward mounted scope and a true scout scope mounted correctly. It's why we see many times the scout rifle concept is pooh poohed because the "test" was done with a scope simply mounted forward (usually with way too much height) and not truly mounted as a scout scope should be.

Nothing wrong with a forward mounted scope to aid shooting if that is what is wanted. Just noting it is not a true scout scope set up that way is all.

Larry Gibson

[mark2935]

Bullseye, Mr. Gibson. When properly set up, when properly understood AND practiced; the scout scope system is fast and accurate. (especially with the three point scout sling) You will not get "lost in the scope" nor get "telescope" eye. Google Scout rifle forum under P-Scout rifles. There is more information concerning scope bases and rings.


Mark#35

[Mike 56]

I have three rifles with scout scope setups. I have Darrell's mounts on a M44 and a 91/30 and one of Dutchmans mounts on my M39 all of them have NcStar scopes. All of them work really well. With my old eyes i need more of them. I think i am going to put one on my 50 cal side lock black powderrifle next.

[Bert2368]

all of them have NcStar scopes. All of them work really well. With my old eyes i need more of them.

Which NC Star scopes are you using?

I was thinking about getting another of the Leatherwood/Hi Lux LER scopes, but the price went up about 50% since last month!

[Mike 56]

One is a 4x32 pistol scope the other two are 2-7x32 the eye relief on the 2-7 has more ajustment than the 4x. They both both worked well for me.

[Artful]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/rowdyfisk/Misc/th_0612112302.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/rowdyfisk/media/Misc/0612112302.jpg.html)

[Hang Fire]

Adapting a scout scope to a milsurp is fairly easy as we see. However, simply putting a scout scope (or intermediate eye relief scope) on a rifle in a forward position does not a "scout rifle" make. Unless the scope is mounted correctly it is just an aid to sighting more accurately and not to the quickness of aiming that is fundamental to the scout rifle concept.

On a true scout rifle the ocular lens must be as low over the front receiver ring as possible. allowing the eye to instantly see through the scope as it is mounted/shouldered. If you mount the rifle and then must move your eye/head up/down or back and forth to find the field of view the scope is not mounted for true scout rifle use. There is a world of difference in quickness and sighting ability between a simply forward mounted scope and a true scout scope mounted correctly. It's why we see many times the scout rifle concept is pooh poohed because the "test" was done with a scope simply mounted forward (usually with way too much height) and not truly mounted as a scout scope should be.

Nothing wrong with a forward mounted scope to aid shooting if that is what is wanted. Just noting it is not a true scout scope set up that way is all.

Larry Gibson



Larry you are dead on as to scope selection and mounting.

When I made up this scout rifle over 20 years ago, I borrowed some of the design from an Israeli 98k sniper I once saw. The cheek piece riser allows for instant acquisition of target, if the scope should fail in the field, the use of poor boy aperture sight is utilized by merely sliding cheek forward and down, which then aligns with the sight. Over the years muscle/eye memory positioning has now become second nature without thought

http://hstrial-rchambers.homestead.com/Mauser_Scout_op_800x448.jpg

As pics are worth thousands of words, here is link to give complete visual concept.

http://hstrial-rchambers.homestead.com/early.html#

[Larry Gibson]

Hang Fire

Excellent! A very fine example that there's more than one way to skin the cat.......in this case you adapted the stock to the scope height....well done.

Larry Gibson

[Mike 56]

This video has helped alot setting up scopes. http://youtu.be/COoXVpGfXQE

[HBAR2989]

I have two SK mounts. One one my M-48A, and one one my M39. I sent them my M39 since they did'nt make that mount at the time. They used it for the pattern, and got my rifle back quickly, plus the price was right on that one. Both mounts are solid and have not moved a bit. They are good people to deal with.

[garymcgehee52]

I have the S K mount on my Finn 39 and love it, rock solid. I did have to add a leather cheek piece to the stock to see through the scope properly.

[Mike 56]

Here's a pic of the mount Dutch made me.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/12/05/bu6y9eny.jpg

[uscra112]

My K31 with an old 2.5x Bushnell Phantom. Mount is a modified Phantom block intended for black powder rifles. Sets the scope axis as low as it can go. A K31 is much too long to be called a "scout rifle", but this lets my old eyes see what's going on out there. The Phantoms were pretty good scopes - Japanese made, and very rugged. 2.5x is about right, IMHO. More power would just slow down initial acquisition. Lastly they still show up on auction sites for $50, often in NOS condition with original box.

90393

[Bert2368]

I'm looking at rings to mount a 30 mm tube scope on the K31 with a BrenShok base now-

Some mfg.'s list a height measurement, many just have "low, medium, high".

Compounding my confusion, some who bother to give a measurement list height to bottom of tube, some to centerline of tube.

I find many versions of instructions for DETERMINING the height needed, but no cross manufacturer/product line list of rings by true height...

http://www.mil-rad.com/scope_ring_calculator


Is there anywhere on the Internet a single table of various brands/models of scope ring height true measure above rail??? Kind of like the ever useful powder burn rate table!

[Hang Fire]

I have just got a Leatherwood/Hi Lux LER scope and one of the replacement rear hand guard mounts for Garand made by Fulton Armory. I like what I've seen so far.

[URL=http://s559.photobucket.com/user/Bert2368/media/Mobile%20Uploads/photo.jpg.html][IMG]http://i559.photobucket.com/

And possibly the K-31 and M-96 Swede.

I scoped my K31 with a St. Marie clamp on mount, no D&T and works great.

http://hstrial-rchambers.homestead.com/publishImages/early~~element87.jpg

[DanM]

FYI....There is another useful, low cost, scout scope out there now. Made by AIM SPORTS, it is a 2-7X, with a 42mm front objective and uses 30mm rings. It is a full size scope, about 11.5" long, with about the same eye relief as the NCStar 2-7X. The NCStar would have to be called a compact size scope in comparison. I just put one on my 1891 Mauser using an SK mount which went right on in about 5min. This one is obviously brighter than my NCstars, but it should be, as it is larger and heavier with bigger glass. It does seem well made, but only time will tell as to durability. The rings that come with it are see through and too high for a cheek weld on the 1891, but the rifle shot very well with it on my first range trip using new, untried loads. I just received some low 30mm rings yesterday and will install them asap. I gave only $51.88 shipped for it on fleabay. Seems like a good, low cost, option for a scout scope.

[Bert2368]

Yup! Got one from Opticsplanet.com for just about the same price. They screwed up the ad copy there and claimed it was also an illuminated scope... But I'm going to keep it and try it out anyhow.

[DanM]

Yup! Got one from Opticsplanet.com for just about the same price. They screwed up the ad copy there and claimed it was also an illuminated scope... But I'm going to keep it and try it out anyhow.

So whatcha gonna mount it on?

[Blammer]

there's a guy selling S&K mounts on Surplus rifle, he has 3 of them for $125, Quite the deal when they are $75 each from S&K.

I have an S&K on my Yugo M48a and love it.

[Ben]

Here are a few pics of my Turk K Kales 1944 , 98 Mauser, 8 X 57 mm " Scout Rifle ".

Rifle Cost $60 ( 10 yrs. ago ) + a $45 Bold Trigger, a Williams rec.sight, a new ramp front sight,and a $12 scout scope base. Considering the minimal amount of money that I have in the rifle, - - - - it is a deadly accurate rifle. Mine doesn't have a 10 round detachable box magazine like the Ruger Scout Rifle , but mine doesn't cost $850 either.

I removed the rear sight sleeve and mounted a Weaver 92-A scope base ( originally intended for a Thompson Center pistol )directly to the barrel.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1477242441/weaver-top-mount-scope-base-92a-thompson-center-contender

If you are curious as to how I mounted the scout scope base to my barrel ?....This is how I did it , this link takes you to a slide show, click the arrows on the left and right to advance to the next photo :

http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/Ben35049/slideshow/Scope%20base

I believe this system is many times stronger than scout scope bases that use the rear sight sleeve.

I do not like the looks of the rear sight replacement scope mounts that fit into the rear sight sleeve on the barrel. It places the scope far too high for my taste. I like the scout scope as low as possible. Being forced to lift your head from the stock to be able to see through the scope is something that I wanted to avoid.

Here is a photo showing the height of mine :

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/001-95.jpg

An added advantage to the low mount system is when going back to my receiver sights, the base isn't seen at all. So, I get the best of both worlds, optics / metallics with a quick removal of the scope in the field if I need to do that.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/003-86.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/522463.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/PICT0008-15.jpg



Considering it was my 1st day out with the newly modified rifle, and also not knowing which loads the rifle would like, I was impressed with this group.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/unnamed-1.jpg

[DeanWinchester]

That is awesome! I've come to expect nothing less from you.

[Ben]

Obviously , 72 years ago , the German Army during WW II was way out ahead of all of us today who like the " scout rifle " forward type scope mounting system.

The K-98 with the ZF-41 scope.

http://i1155.photobucket.com/albums/p545/Ben35049/Capture_zpsa36327f3.jpg

[30calflash]

Thanks for the heads up on the Weaver mount, Ben. It could help get a few other project scout rifles in the works. I picked up a weaver 92A mount at the LGS yesterday. When I got home I tried it on an 03A3, which it fit pretty well, and a #4MK1 which it was not a good fit. Barrel diameter a little small on the enfield for that mount. We'll take a look how it fits some other rifles soon.

[Ben]

Thanks for the heads up on the Weaver mount, Ben. It could help get a few other project scout rifles in the works. I picked up a weaver 92A mount at the LGS yesterday. When I got home I tried it on an 03A3, which it fit pretty well, and a #4MK1 which it was not a good fit. Barrel diameter a little small on the enfield for that mount. We'll take a look how it fits some other rifles soon.


Keep us posted with your progress.

[madsenshooter]

Started out to be about a Garand, looks like we got lot of others now, so here's a mount that works pretty good on a Krag. Made by Kraghaus. http://www.kraghaus.com/ I wouldn't put a scope that weighed a whole lot more on it than this el cheapo 2x7x32, the two original sight screws is all that holds it. Eye relief works out pretty good, as mentioned above for the NC Star, this wouldn't make a good pistol scope. I later found some Bushnell rings that were lower, the ocular bell clears the receiver by about 1/8".

[JRR]

I purchased an unfinished 6" rail from Brownell's. Machined the bottom to perfectly fit the Turkish Mauser's barrel. Drilled and tapped the mount and barrel for four torx screws.

Target is 15 shots @ 100 yards from a sandbag rest with 200 gr. cast.

http://i43.tinypic.com/2ma4x1.jpg

[Ben]

JRR ,

I'd say you've got that one dialed in ! !

Good shooting.

Ben

[Bert2368]

Set up the K31 with the BrenShok mount and el cheapo AIM 2-7x42 EER scope this weekend.

Added 1 1/2" of foam + slip on pad to butt, another 1/2" of foam + M1A strap on pad to get proper cheek weld. Over 1.5 lb. of stuff stuck onto the rifle and near 2" LOP increase, the foam and rubber over that steel butt plate does wonders if you're shooting in a T-shirt...

On 2X, fast target acquisition as it should be for "scout" mount. At 7X, good for 300 yards or better off the bench or prone.

This is good enough for load development, but there's some room for improvement- I'd like to find a base/ring combo about 3/4" lower than this ended up, and the scope ended up 2" too far back for charger use.

http://i559.photobucket.com/albums/ss31/Bert2368/photo-180.jpg (http://s559.photobucket.com/user/Bert2368/media/photo-180.jpg.html)

http://i559.photobucket.com/albums/ss31/Bert2368/photo-181.jpg (http://s559.photobucket.com/user/Bert2368/media/photo-181.jpg.html)

http://i559.photobucket.com/albums/ss31/Bert2368/photo-182.jpg (http://s559.photobucket.com/user/Bert2368/media/photo-182.jpg.html)