Seat deeper or shoot ?

[farmerjim]

I have cast about 500 Lee c457-500-f ( they are 19 BHN and weigh 477 to 480 grains not 500 ) and coated them with green Hi-Tek and GC and sized to .459. Loaded with 39 grains of IMR 3031. C.O.L. for varies in load tables but the shortest is 2.540 which is what I have.
This length is pushing the Boolit about 1/8 inch into the lands in my 45-70 Handi-Rifle.
It is easily pushed in with my finger, but I do feel the resistance. I think that I need to seat them deeper so that they are just off the lands even though it is much shorter than the shortest recommended C.O.L.
8674386744

You can see where and how shallow the boolit is hitting in the attached picture, but to seat much deeper will have almost the entire boolit in the case.

[fouronesix]

If that smokeless load is within published data try it like that. I could run get a manual or two and check but that is up to the loader.

That bullet, by the way, is a bore rider so the whole parallel portion of the nose forward of the front drive band can be and maybe should be in the lands. That is the definition of a bore rider.

That 19 BHN is a little too hard for me but it won't hurt to try them and see how they shoot.

[farmerjim]

Thanks, It is one grain above the starting trapdoor load in one table, and 1/2 a grain below the starting load in another trapdoor table. It is 7 grains below a modern max load.
I will go shoot it now and get back with results. If I don't get back by tonight, It was no good.
FJ

[nanuk]

Have you slugged your Handi? Mine is fat at 0.455+/0.459+.

[farmerjim]

1. No I have not slugged the Handi. I know I should, but I am not getting any leading.
2. Three shots. 1 was 2.54 C.O.L. 3 was trying 2.65 and not being able to chamber the round after crimping, then seating to 2.54 while shaving lead all the way. 2 was back at 2.54.

I used HI-TEK on the boolits instead of lube in the grooves. This probably made the nose too big to be a bore rider. I never thought of this, but the 2.54 C.O.L seems to work.

86758

[fouronesix]

A few things to try, however that group is pretty darn good!

Drop down in hardness to about 11-12 BHN. Use a soft lube in the grooves. Don't crimp. Seat the bullet out until the front drive band contacts the end of the throat- that should put most of the nose up into the lands.

By reducing hardness, the cast diameter will be a little smaller as will the nose diameter. It will also allow the bullet to obturate a little more. By using a soft lube and with a little softer alloy the bullet nose should enter the lands a little easier.

No reason to crimp for a single shot. All you need is to take any flare or bell out of the case mouth after seating. To do that... Either pull the seater die out a little so the crimping shoulder in the die doesn't make hard contact with the mouth but just enough to size the mouth back to same diameter as the neck. Or pull the seater die out so there is no contact with the mouth then, once the bullet is seated, lightly run the whole round back up into the sizer die, by feel, to take the flare or bell out. All that does is put a very light taper crimp on the whole bullet and should help in easier chambering as will the softer alloy and lubing the grooves with a softer lube.

[farmerjim]

I have had this gun for about a year and a half. I got it to hunt in our primitive weapons seasons here in Louisiana.
I have a small field in the woods out behind my house planted in ryegrass. The longest shot that I have in that field is about 50 yards. This was a good thing because until the three shots on the posted target, my best group had been over 6 inches and some have been over a foot. Nothing I tried worked, I thought I would have to accept this poor performance. I will try your suggestions and see if I can match or improve some more on this load.
I will have to cast some softer alloy and get a .459 die for my Herters lubesizer. I switched to the Lee sizing when I started using polymer coatings instead of lubes. I find them to be much cleaner and faster to produce, but it will not work properly on this bore rider because it covers the entire boolit and makes the nose too large to slide into the barrel.
The Boolit that got crimped was a goof on my part. I was trying to adjust the die to just take the flair out of the brass and overdid it. I seated it deeper so I could shoot it and save my hard to get 45-70 brass. (easier than pulling)
I should also cast a pure lead boolit while I am at it and slug the gun before I order a .459 die if the .458 one I have will work fine .
Thanks for the help, education , and suggestions. It is much appreciated.

FJ

[Goatwhiskers]

Yer doin' purty good, Jim. Seems that polymer coating is working out just fine. GW

[farmerjim]

It appears that this load patterns well, but even with a starting trapdoor load on this 500 grain boolit it kicks like a mule in the Handi Rifle. I have a bruise on my right shoulder from just three shots. None of my other bullets kicked this much. I may try a Trail boss load and see if kicks less and still holds a decent pattern.
Are you going to hunt primitive weapons season Sat.?

[popper]

Interesting - I tried the H-T green in 30/30 (no GC), worked OK @ ~1300, went south @~ 1500. No leading, just gunk in the bore. How many coats did you use? My RD CB just engraves, you can see the slices on a round but still no leading.

[farmerjim]

I used 3 coats of the H-T green with the standard catalyst. The book had the 39 grains of IMR 3031 pushing the boolit at ~ 1300 to 1400. I did use a GC . I will try some without in my refinement testing on this load, but for now all I need is a few to hunt the Primitive season. One thing about a 500 grain boolit is you don't have to push it fast to have a large amount of energy. It won't shoot flat, but out to 100 yards it doesn't matter much.
I have some of the copper H-T and 2 extreme catalyst coming today and will also try them.
Are you still working with putting copper into your alloys to make them tough and let them be shot faster? I just got some Babbitt and want to try it plus adding the Cu with copper sulfate.