Wc 860

[twotoescharlie]

knowing that you have to use a full case, and that it burns dirty,was wondering if anyone had tried to use a filler or if it is feasible to do so.
I bought this powder because it was cheap and have only tried in a couple of cartridges. 8x57 mauser and 8x56 steyr. it went bang in both and had fair accuracy with cast boolits. haven't had much experience with surplus powder but am willing to learn.
been reloading close to 50 years, but you ain't never too old to learn something new.

regards
TTC

[Ricochet]

Yeah, lots of people have used fillers with it.

[Maven]

ttc & Ricochet, I've used at least 16lb. of WC 860 and found that fillers didn't improve "cleanliness" in .30-06-sized cartridges or those closely akin to it (e.g., the 8 x 57mm) with 1 exception: the 7.65 x 53mm Arg. Mau. By reducing the powder charge to 43 - 44gr. and adding 1cc. of poly- filler + a MAG. primer, I got excellent accuracy with a 195gr. CB as well as pristine cases. Neither chronograph data nor target results indicated any meaningful difference when I tried a poly- filler in the '06-based cases, so I stopped using it and saved myself an extra step. Instead, in the '06 and its relatives, including the 7.5 Swiss, and 8 x 57mm, I use 48 - 49gr. 860 with a MAG. primer and a CB that's at least 175gr., but NO filler of any kind. Hope this helps!

[Ricochet]

Yeah, I said that lots of folks have used fillers with WC860, not that I use them. I don't think, personally, that WC860 is generally suited to applications where a full case isn't the proper charge. It's its own filler.

[Buckshot]

..............WC860, WC872:

6.5x55 Full case, 140gr Jacketed. 2700 fps 24" bbl, burns clean.
140+ gr cast, 34.0gr loose or dacron, very accurate 1550 fps 29" bbl, add a couple grains for shorter bbls. Dirty with some unburned pdr in bore and case.

7x57 Full case, 175gr Rem C-L, 2450 fps very accurate, burns clean (design ballistics).
170+ gr cast, full case 2400 fps accurate, clean.
170+ gr cast, 42, 44 grs 1775 fps, accurate. Some unburned powder but not bad.

8x57 Full case, 240gr cast, 1950 fps, 29" bbl, very accurate, burns clean.

35 Whelen Full case, 358009 accurate, mod velocity, some residue
3.0gr 4198 booster, burns clean, 1950 - 2000 fps

444 Marlin Full case, 310 cast is a waste of time. Filthy. Haven't tried a booster but should respond.

45-70 Full case most any cast is a waste of time. Dirty.
Booster charge 1.0 to 5.0grs 4198 over primer and fill with WC = clean burn, BP type velocities.

...............Buckshot

[twotoescharlie]

thanks Buckshot, you da man.


TTC

[James C. Snodgrass]

My experience has been about the same.I have had better luck if it is heavily compressed.I use it in 458 Lott,375JDJ,338 win mag,30/06,35Whelan.All with the heavist boolits I've got and it aint bad I do use mag caps. The only thing in J-word stuff has been 270WSM with a 140 win failsafe over 82grs Igot over 3300 fps and 3/4 MOA. I did use a bp drop tube to get it all in and a lot effort to seat .

[9.3X62AL]

+1 to Buckshot's info regarding WC-860, which I stole shamelessly from him.

My results--

6.5 x 55/140 grain Hornady #2630--full case of WC-860 (55.0 grains) gave 2475 FPS in Ruger 77R's 22" barrel. The twist rate in this barrel is 1-9", so it may not conjure up the pressure the mil-spec 6.5's do with their 1-7.5" pitch. VERY accurate, and entirely adequate for deer.

45-70 w/405 grain Lee plain base--6.0 grains of IMR-4198, followed by 44.0 grains of WC-860 for 100% load density in R-P cases. W-W hold slightly less powder, reduce by 2.0 grains of WC-860. Results are 1300 FPS from 22" Ruger #1 barrel, VERY accurate.

[Jim]

I always wondered about putting a kicker under 860 in the .45-70.

[TCLouis]

I have a bunch of 870 left and need to do something with it.
I do get somewhere in the 24-2500 range with 140s coated projectiles in the 6.5X257 as I remember it, but I have several times more powder than what I will use the rest of my life in the 6.5.

I don't have a 8 mm heavier than 176 grains, 30 cal above 150, but maybe the 45-70s (378 grainer is max there) are a possibility.

What say ye, merry band of slow burner experts?

[Ricochet]

From the Olin data sheet I had, the relative burning rates of WC860, WC870 and WC872 are 82, 81 and 80 respectively. Very, very close, so that I'd regard them as interchangeable in most cases. Lot to lot variation might account for as much or more difference than the differences in their nominal burning speeds.

[JohnH]

In my M44 (7.62x54R) I'm using Lee's 312-185 over 55 grains 860 with 2 grains of 3031 as a booster lit with CCI 250 primers. Since I"ve scoped the rifle it gives me nice 1 1/4" to 1 1/2" groups and clocks 1860 FPS. Burns clean enough.

I use the same boolit and booster with 35 grains 860 in my 30-30. Don't know the velocity, but it shoots real nice and burns clean.

I also use 62 grains, no booster, in my 25-06 under 120 grain FLG's, clocks 2700 fps and shoots into 3/4"

28 grains in 223 with M193's (55g FMJBT) shoots under 1" but is DIRTY, don't know velocity haven't tried with a booster charge. With a booster, it could be a nice cast boolit powder in this cartridge.......kinda makes ya go Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm....................

[redneckdan]

just a little preliminary info. I loaded up .3 cc of H335 under 20gr of WC860 under an unchecked lyman 55gr flat point in a .223 rem. It went bang and burned clean in my super 14 barrel. no accuracy info yet.

[Ricochet]

Just a heads up. I was down at Widener's yesterday and saw jugs of a surplus powder I'd never seen, from Saint Mark's Powder Company, with "226" on the label. Widener's calls it SM226. It's a pistol powder. The store guy told me "It's just a little hotter than HS-6." They want $82 for a jug of it.

[felix]

Prolly for 9mm, but rejected because of being a little too warm? Sounds good to me, anyway. I have never used HS-6, so are we talking another Unique, such as UniversalClays? Maybe this powder is more like UniversalClays. ... felix

[Ricochet]

Dunno, I just ran across it and haven't bought any.

I posted this as a new thread, but it somehow got appended to WC860.

[BCB]

From the Olin data sheet I had, the relative burning rates of WC860, WC870 and WC872 are 82, 81 and 80 respectively. Very, very close, so that I'd regard them as interchangeable in most cases. Lot to lot variation might account for as much or more difference than the differences in their nominal burning speeds.

I know this is an “Old Hat’ subject…

I have done a search for WC-860 and WC-872 to compare burn rates if used in a 7mm Remington Magnum…

I have friend who is using WC-872 in that cartridge with very good success…

His supply is nearly diminished…

I have some WC-860 and I was wondering if the same consensus of burning rates compares to the post I just quoted…

Thanks…BCB

[felix]

Yeah, they would interchangeable with a large bore, but maybe not for a small one when the amount is considerable like 50 or more grains (energy). I would chrono each load with the one being used less 10 percent. Pay attention to ES as most significant because of the close rating of each by Olin/WW. ... felix

[wiljen]

Unless you got a lot of powder that was rejected for being too fast for the original application, it should be impossible to get too much 860,870, or 872 in the 7mm Rem Mag Case with any reasonable weight bullet. Having said that, start low and work up as lot to lot variation in the surplus world is considerably larger than in the canister grade stuff. If it is a typical lot of any of the listed powders, you can expect a full case with a magnum primer to yield about 2600 fps from a 24" barrel using 154-160gr jacketed.

[roverboy]

I've got almost 16# of WC860 and have used some of it to load .30-06 with 180 gr. Hornady Spire Point and Win. LR mag primers. I can't remember the load but it was lightly compressed and shot ok but, burned a little dirty. I'm trying to get geared up for casting. I've got a Ideal 311375 mold that's 168 gr pointed. Probably not heavy enough to get good ignition, but it may work ok with a mag primer. If and when I get going with the cast I'll let everybody know how it goes.

[leadman]

I have used 860 and 872 in the 7mm Rem Mag. There is a defininte difference in burning rates of my 2 powders.
80grs of 872 with a 140gr Nosler give just over 3,100 fps and fantastic accuracy. Never got a good load with the 860.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I have used it a lot in the 7MM/06. 51 GRS.was best in my rifle w/ Lyman 168gr. cast.
By the way that is not a full case load.
Got same results w/ 48grs. & a tuff of Dacron filler, but cleaner.:Fire::Fire:

[Linstrum]

Some lots of WC872 burn as fast as WC860 and some lots of WC860 burn as slow as WC872, but those two cases are not typical. I use WC860 in my LAR Grizzly single shot .50 BMG rifle and I have substituted WC872 for WC860 in it, and of the several lots of those two powders I have, the WC860 is significantly faster than WC872 IN MY .50 BROWNING. I have also used a lot of WC860 and WC872 in .30-06 and 7.62x54R Russian, and in those two smaller calibers I see NO DIFFERENCE. In .30-06 and 7.62x54R Russian I use a full case of either with a small booster over the flash hole consisting of about 4 grains of IMR4895 or other similar burn rate single base rifle powder. Do not use a ball powder or very small stick powder that will sift into the main charge. Using a very slightly compressed load is helpful, I just top off the cartridge and then compress the charge by pushing it down with the boolit, usually a 180 grain .309 Lee with gas check. The booster charge makes the powder burn clean, without it the barrel and cartridge are just full of "mummies" or scorched powder grains. The booster totally cleans up all the mummies.

A warning about magnum cartridges, please do as Wiljen suggests and even though a full case in the 7mm mag is probably okay, be sure to start off small and work up! I had a real close call in my 6.5mm Swede with WC872. I was going to just fill up the 6.5 Swede case and go for it, but my little red warning light in the back of my mind said: "YOU STUPID IDIOT! WORK UP ALL LOADS REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU HEARD!" I'm glad a heeded my own warning because the bullet diameter to case volume ratio of the Swedish Mauser puts it squarely into the magnum category and I would have damaged my rifle with a full case of WC872 or WC860. In other words, even though there are many cartridges, like the .30-06 and 7.62x54R Russian, where a full case is totally safe, there are others where a full case equals risking losing your face! Work up all your new loads, you will not regret spending the time to develop your own safe loads.

By the way, I have three rifles that are 1/2 minute of angle shooters (about 1/2-inch at 100 yards). Two are military surplus rifles well over 55 years old. Of them, the most accurate rifle is a 1936-dated Finish-rebuild Mosin-Nagant m91/30 with a 1942 dated Tikkakoski barrel, and with it my most accurate load is a full case of WC860 over 4 grains IMR4895 with a regular large rifle primer, topped off with a Lee .309 180 grain wheel weight boolit with a gas check. I have no idea what the velocity is out of its 31-inch barrel, but I don't get any leading using a good boolit lube.

Have fun, but be safe, too! That's what it is all about.

[doubs43]

A warning about magnum cartridges, please do as Wiljen suggests and even though a full case in the 7mm mag is probably okay, be sure to start off small and work up! I had a real close call in my 6.5mm Swede with WC872. I was going to just fill up the 6.5 Swede case and go for it, but my little red warning light in the back of my mind said: "YOU STUPID IDIOT! WORK UP ALL LOADS REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU HEARD!" I'm glad a heeded my own warning because the bullet diameter to case volume ratio of the Swedish Mauser puts it squarely into the magnum category and I would have damaged my rifle with a full case of WC872 or WC860. In other words, even though there are many cartridges, like the .30-06 and 7.62x54R Russian, where a full case is totally safe, there are others where a full case equals risking losing your face! Work up all your new loads, you will not regret spending the time to develop your own safe loads.

Excellent advice. While in my experience one cannot stuff enough WC-860 into a 38-55, 40-65 or 45-70 case to create excessive pressures - unless you use too much fast ignitor powder, like a double charge - it's entirely possible in some cases. One such is the .405 Winchester and while working up loads for it, I quickly realized that it was a different animal than the other three cartridges. Use normal load development precautions and don't assume anything. It'll keep you safe.

[Fishman]

Wideners is selling these for $49 right now with no hazmat if you buy six.

[smokingguns]

Prolly for 9mm, but rejected because of being a little too warm? Sounds good to me, anyway. I have never used HS-6, so are we talking another Unique, such as UniversalClays? Maybe this powder is more like UniversalClays. ... felix


how much to hot?
would it work for 40sw/10mm?