Blackhorn 209 or BlackMZ data?

[badgeredd]

Has anyone tried either of the title powders in cartridge ammunition? I know black powder can be loaded in many cartridges, but I am interested in these 2 newer powders and their potential in BP cartridges in particular. I don't care at all for Pyrodex and it's associated crud/corrosion issues.

Edd

[Don McDowell]

Have used loaded quite a bit of 209 for the wifes 45-70. You don't need any fouling control with it, but you do need to clean up soon after shooting and don't use a water based cleaning solution. The cases clean up alright but from time to time will grow some white fuzz in the primer pockets unless you use something like lemishine in the thumblers with the ceramic media. Also using the Hornady ultrasonic cleaner and solution seems to keep any stange stuff from growing on the cases. I visited with the folks at Western a bit about the case thing, and they didn't offer any answers. Maybe boiling in vinegar or such would be a good route to take with those cases.

[badgeredd]

Thanks Don. What primers do you use? Can one use a full case like a guy would with real BP? I just need a starting point, but I assume (maybe dangerous?) that one needs to compress the powder and would think that standard rifle primers would do the job ok.

Edd

[Don McDowell]

Been using federal 215's. I'm not sure with regular primers you'ld get good ignition. Don't compress. Just enough to make firm contact with the wad/bullet. May need to use filler such as pufflon.
Check the online load data.

[johnson1942]

dons right, the 209 powder works great. it is the only blackpowder sub. that shoots as accurately as real black. it is 15 percent stronger that real black. also if you use a weaker primer as you may already have a large stock of them, just do what muzzle loader shooters do. put 10 grains of real black under the 209 powder powder,it will go off well. it also wont hurt accuracy.37 grains of reloader 7 is a good powder for a nice big cast boolit. its bulky,accurate and clean and lower pressure. i believe don has mentioned before of his wife shooting 1000 yards with the 209 powder and how accurate she was on the target. in the future i plan on building a underhammer muzzle loader just for 209 powder. why that instead of real black. because to obtain it,it is only 15 miles away instead of 125 miles away and it is just as accurate. have fun

[Don McDowell]

I've found blackhorn pretty expensive to shoot , after we used the 2 cans she originally won... Cost per round is the same or a little more than swiss. It does shoot very well when you hit the sweet spot load.

[M-Tecs]

I just started using it. I am really liking it. Cabela's had it on sale for 24.95 and I got 10% off for military discounts. I purchase 8 of the 10 oz. bottles. I wish I had purchased more.

Never used BlackMZ.

[Don McDowell]

Cheapest way to buy the stuff is in the 5 lb. jugs.

[johnson1942]

Don: can my local hardware special order it that way or do i have to order it from the manufacture?

[badgeredd]

From the Blackhorn 209 website:

"Blackhorn 209 is designed to work with standard 209 shotshell primers. For the best results, we recommend the following brands:

CCI 209M
Federal 209A"

Since I am using the powder in a cartridge, I figured there may be a difference in what is NEEDED to light off the synthetic black. Obviously a 209 primer isn't what is necessary.

The recommended load is 81% of the cartridge capacity in 45-70 or 30.4 grains. Is that the capacity of the case without regard of the bullet seating depth? Doesn't seem right as they recommend a dacron filler. I also want to try it in my 43 Spanish roller and would prefer to get the charge lighter and work up to what shoots well with BP pressures. On line data isn't available for the roller.

Thank you Don for your help. If all seems to work well, I'll likely get a big jug for the grandsons to play with. Regular BP is fine, but not as readily available around here. Pricing is higher for the Blackhorn, but I can get it without making a roadtrip, so it works out to be pretty close in price considering the fuel cost. For just plinking loads the Blackhorn sounds like it might be viable as far as performance and the somewhat easier clean-up in a cartridge gun, particularly if the boys are shooting!

I use Holy Black in my front loaders, but for the inlines the boys use and cartridge guns, I feel the 209 may be a better option for myself.

Edd

[badgeredd]

I see a lot of assumptions stated on the web but I haven't found any real data or 1st person accounts about the powder. I use a fair amount of Alliant powders so I am curious about the FACTS pertaining to the BlackMZ. It may well be a repackaged powder as some claim, but it may also be a re-vamped powder with more thorough testing behind it.

Edd

[Don McDowell]

Edd I wouldn't use that Blackhorn in anything but a modern rifle. If you look at the data they provide there's not many of those loads they recommend for trapdoors.

Have you thought about ordering in blackpowder? You can get anywhere from 5-50 lbs from Powder Inc or Grafs right to your door..

[M-Tecs]

Blackhorn 209 cartridge data http://www.blackhorn209.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/b209blackpowdercartridgedata.pdf

I have never loaded it in a cartridge round so I cannot comment. I am using it in my inlines for hunting. I have limited experience with it but it has provided exceptional accuracy with little to no cleaning issues. For BP only inline muzzleloaders it has become my go to powder.

What I can tell you is that it is accurate and the cleanest of the subs that I have used. When hunting if I have a sidelock it will use real BP. When I go inline I want as modern as possible. In my Savage 10ML II that is straight smokeless (5477 or 4198). In my BP only inlines that will now be Blackhorn 209.

I see limited use in a cartridge gun. Mostly I use real BP but if I need a large number of shots without cleaning I would use Blackhorn 209.

Most of my load development has been for BPCR or muzzleloader were I have ample cleaning opportunities. When I shoot my original 1873 Winchester 44WCF accuracy goes south after 10 or 12 rounds. For that type of usage Blackhorn 209 may be a good choice.

What I can tell you is that it lives up to its claims. I have found no surprises or issues with it.

[Nobade]

This might help - they have data for some cartridges here.

http://www.blackhorn209.com/load-data/

-Nobade

[Don McDowell]

Don: can my local hardware special order it that way or do i have to order it from the manufacture?
Your local dealer should be able to order it that way, if not check with Powder Inc, and Grafs.

[badgeredd]

Edd I wouldn't use that Blackhorn in anything but a modern rifle. If you look at the data they provide there's not many of those loads they recommend for trapdoors.

Have you thought about ordering in blackpowder? You can get anywhere from 5-50 lbs from Powder Inc or Grafs right to your door..

Yes I have thought about ordering in a good supply and will likely do so when I have more money than month left.

The main reason I was looking into the Blackhorn Cartridge loads was to do exactly what M-Tecs mentioned when my grandsons are here shooting. They love the big guns when they shoot rather light loads and the load they show for a 405 grain bullet would be perfect. I should have read the PDF file before I asked the original question as there wouldn't have been a need for the question. Thanks a lot guys for the info.

Edd

[M-Tecs]

Power Valley has it in stock but you have the HazMat fee also.

http://www.powdervalleyinc.com/

BH209-05 * BLACKHORN 209 5 LB $187.50

It gets pricy. For the big guns rated for smokeless my go to powder for fun cost effective light load is Unique. The Lyman 45th Edition is a great reference for these. No fillers require, accurate, fun and very cost effective.

Unique will be about an 8th of the cost of Blackhorn 209.

ALLUNI-08 * ALLIANT UNIQUE - 8 LB. Out of Stock $106.80

Like I stated I really like it but at 120 grains volumetric 84 grains actual in my BP only inlines it’s 50 cents a shot just for powder.

http://www.powderinc.com/catalog/order.htm

KIK from Powder Valley 25 or 50 lb. lot: $13.70 per lb. Price includes shipping and hazmat fee.

[Don McDowell]

Yes I have thought about ordering in a good supply and will likely do so when I have more money than month left.

The main reason I was looking into the Blackhorn Cartridge loads was to do exactly what M-Tecs mentioned when my grandsons are here shooting. They love the big guns when they shoot rather light loads and the load they show for a 405 grain bullet would be perfect. I should have read the PDF file before I asked the original question as there wouldn't have been a need for the question. Thanks a lot guys for the info.

Edd

Edd I've figured the cost per round in my wife's rifle and Blackhorn costs as much or more than Swiss everytime the thing goes off..
As much as I abhor trailboss for use in rifles, it might just be the best option for the grandkid loads.

[oldred]

Never tried the Black MZ but the BH 209 worked quite well in my slightly larger 45-90 using a cast Lee 500 gr. As has been mentioned it IS more powerful than real BP, volume for volume there was a very noticeable difference between the 209 and the Goex FF I was comparing it to so I would definitely not recommend just filling a case like using BP but if you stick with the published loads you should be ok. 42.6 grains in loadings (45-90) using their data yields right at 28,000 psi with the 500 gr slug and a 98% case fill, I tried a couple of compressed loads like I would have done with the Goex and the pressure was obviously well above the 28,000 psi level as compared to the published load. I know this is for the 45-90 and not 45/70 but I thought the comparisons I did to similar BP loads might be of some help to you for comparing how this powder performs in a cartridge loading, it was a very good shooter too as well clean burning but good as it is it's a bit spendy compared to other powders.

[badgeredd]

Well guys, I sent an enquiry to Alliant about using Black MZ in cartridge ammunition. They replied with some limited data. I'll post it here for those of you that may be interested.

Alliant Powder
Black MZ Cartridge Data

38 Special (Federal brass, Fed 100 primer)
125 gr RNFP lead 16 grs @ 826 fps
158 gr RNFP lead 15 grs @ 773 fps

357 Rem Mag (Federal brass, Fed 100 primer)
125 gr RNFP lead 19.5 grs @ 913 fps
158 gr RNFP lead 19 grs @ 905 fps

44 SW Special (Federal brass, Fed 100 primer)
200 gr RNFP lead 25 grs @ 920 fps
240 gr RNFP lead 22 grs @ 869 fps

44 Rem Mag (Federal brass, Fed 150 primer)
200 gr RNFP lead 27.5 grs @ 1043 fps
240 gr RNFP lead 27 grs @ 995 fps

45 Colt (Federal brass, Fed 150 primer)
250 gr RNFP lead 26.5 grs @ 878 fps
300 gr RNFP lead 26 grs @ 824 fps

45/70 (Federal brass, Fed 210 primer)
350 gr RNFP lead 53 grs @ 1503 fps
405 gr RNFP lead 49 grs @ 1364 fps

A firm crimp on the bullet is recommended.

I hope this data is useful to someone who has wondered about using it in BP cartridges.

Edd

[DaveCampbell]

I have tried BlackMZ and found it a bit hotter than black powder, volume-for-volume. In my .44-40s it translates to about 50 to 75 fps more velocity than real black. Now I load it in brass shotshells for CAS. It really is hydrophobic. I've left my shotgun a week or more before cleaning it and had no issues with rust. Of course, I live in a relatively arid climate, but a friend in Virginia deliberately left his gun for a month and found no rust in it.

That said, except for the shotgun, I still prefer real black powder.

[oldred]

That's quite interesting about the lack of rust, I did the same thing with a junky old in-line ML I had here (didn't care if the dang thing rusted or not) using BH 209 and after about a month, probably closer to three weeks, there was no rust at all. If I had done the same with T7 or Pyrodex it would have been a real mess, I have no doubt about that since I found out years ago what that stuff will do!


I did notice an odd discoloration of my brass when using BH209 does the BlackMZ have any bad effects on brass that you might have noticed.

[DaveCampbell]

I noticed a white residue on the brass shotshells, but it comes of easily in my ultrasonic cleaner.

[bigted]

I can identify the Blackhorn 209 but don't know a thing about the Black MZ. sounds like a fun powder to try but would like to find out a bit more about the Black MZ powder. will Google it but can you fill me in a bit?