Which one would you buy? [Archive]

No_1

11-05-2013, 09:04 AM

The Winchester is nice but it is a 110 year old survivor and being a 110 year old survivor means there may be existing conditions that you will not be aware of until you strip it to parade rest for a thorough cleaning and even at that point you are not sure what you have until you pull the trigger on a loaded round. If there are problems they could be mighty expensive to repair which may become even more expensive depending on the availability of parts.

On the other hand, the Rossi is built using a proven pattern and is tough. I currently have 2 and would buy more. The first is in 38/357 and it feeds smooth as a Winchester. The second is in 44/40. I have only shot it once but with a good cleaning I believe this one is as nice as the first.

The question I would ask my self would be do I want a guaranteed shooter or a possible project?

missionary5155

11-05-2013, 09:34 AM

Greetings
Anyone can buy a new "this century" Rossi. But come across a fine old caliber .38 that does not cost both arms and 2 quarts of rich red stuff is far between water holes.
Should you decide not to buy the Winchester I will. Let me know...
Mike in Peru

clownbear69

11-05-2013, 09:43 AM

The Winchester will only go up in price.

Rossi are like Glocks, everyone has one except me

M-Tecs

11-05-2013, 09:56 AM

The Winchester will continue to go up in value. The Rossi willing drop in value after use.

UNIQUEDOT

11-05-2013, 11:20 AM

Definitely the Winchester! you can always pick up a Rossi and much cheaper even than you quoted on the 44-40.

OverMax

11-05-2013, 11:21 AM

Personally I wouldn't buy either. So it now becomes a matter of your preference OP. You said early on you were leaning so tell us here which way?

starmac

11-05-2013, 02:01 PM

I would rather have a picture of the winchester than the rossi. lol Just kidding, but for me it would be the winchester, hands down.

fordwannabe

11-05-2013, 02:01 PM

Uh WINCHESTER for about the same money, not even a second thought.

smkummer

11-05-2013, 04:06 PM

RCBS makes a correct bullet mold for the 38-40 with a crimp groove. The original Lyman mold had no crimp groove as it was supposed to be full of black powder so one just crimped on the ogive. Works for revolvers but not modern lever rifles with less than a full case of smokeless powder. Yes, if the Winchester shoots it is a no brainer.

jcwit

11-05-2013, 05:44 PM

I'd go with the Winchester.

BUT

Winchester hands down, It has already outlasted the Rossi.

Ya, by 3 years. Winchester 1886. Rossi 1889.

Besides I just dont like third world firearms

Don't think I'd place Brazil into the 3rd world category.

williamwaco

11-05-2013, 05:53 PM

I agree with No 1.

BUT!

I would buy the Winchester anyway.

If you don't like it, you will find a worn out Winchester will be easier to sell than a brand new Rossi

MattOrgan

11-05-2013, 05:58 PM

If the bore is decent in the Winchester you won't be sorry. I wouldn't concern myself with increasing values, just enjoying the better rifle for handling and shooting. .38-40 is easy to load for and the easiest bullet mold is the Lee .40 175 TC tumble lube bullet for the 40 S&W. Crimp in the top micro groove. Very accurate at about 1,000 fps tumble lubed in 45/45/10 a couple of times. Feeds smoothly from the magazine. Buy the Rossi next year :-)

bandit7.5

11-05-2013, 06:30 PM

Winchester hands down, It has already outlasted the Rossi.

Besides I just dont like third world firearms

makes me cry to say this but winchester is becoming a third world firearm company

bandit7.5

11-05-2013, 06:32 PM

Winchester hands down, It has already outlasted the Rossi.

Besides I just dont like third world firearms

makes me cry to say this but winchester is becoming a third world firearm company........ but i agree with MattOrgan on the ..............38-40 being easy to reload for

FergusonTO35

11-05-2013, 06:53 PM

I would buy the Winchester largely because that Rossi is overpriced. Brand new they are alot less than $580.00 around here. My local shop had one in .45 Colt with octagonal barrel for less than $500.00 the other day. What's that ugly medallion or whatever on the side of the Rossi in the picture?

sparky45

11-05-2013, 06:55 PM

Last week I purchased a NEW Rossi 92 in 44-40 SS with a 24" Octagonal barrel. $449.99 total cost including shipping and transfer fee. That was a no brainer. Goes well with my 38/357 Rossi 92.

HighHook

11-05-2013, 07:08 PM

Dont buy the Winchester! There is a disease that follows these. When you put it your safe it is all alone. It wants the company of all the other calibers with octagons, fancy sights and etc. Just take the cheap way out and buy the Rossi. lol...

K-Rod

11-05-2013, 07:12 PM

smokeywolf

11-05-2013, 07:13 PM

MarkP

11-05-2013, 08:18 PM

Somebody school me if im wrong but thats a Rossi SRC Puma isnt it? I have one in 44m & 38spl/357mag. It was my understanding they stopped making the Puma's (Cat Medallion) back in the early to mid 90's?

Yes I have one in 44 mag not sure when they stopped selling them; I would trade mine for a Win in 38-40 + a few hundred $'s any day. My Puma medallion was gone when I bought it back in about 1991. Bought it in a parking lot of a gun store; they only wanted to give him $100 for it he wanted $150. It does have pretty decent walnut on it.

I would get the Winchester as others have said that is very pricey for the Rossi.

jcwit

11-05-2013, 10:43 PM

makes me cry to say this but winchester is becoming a third world firearm company

Japan is a 3rd world country? Ya right

K-Rod

11-05-2013, 10:55 PM

Yes I have one in 44 mag not sure when they stopped selling them; I would trade mine for a Win in 38-40 + a few hundred $'s any day. My Puma medallion was gone when I bought it back in about 1991. Bought it in a parking lot of a gun store; they only wanted to give him $100 for it he wanted $150. It does have pretty decent walnut on it.

I would get the Winchester as others have said that is very pricey for the Rossi.

If you go by the Blue Book (which I know is subjective) an older Rossi SRC model 92 Round barrel Puma lists for $895-$600 from 100% to 90% condition.

The older Puma's with the Cat medallion though not a Winchester, shouldn't be confused with a newer Rossi M92 when it comes to value.

starmac

11-05-2013, 11:57 PM

Japan is a 3rd world country? Ya right

Japan doesn't make all winchesters, M70's are now made in a South American country, iirc Brazil. It would be nice if they were all made in THIS country though.

jcwit

11-06-2013, 12:27 AM

Japan doesn't make all winchesters, M70's are now made in a South American country, iirc Brazil. It would be nice if they were all made in THIS country though.

As would a whole bunch of other stuff. But then can the masses afford it?

I would not call Brazil a 3rd world country.

Lead Fred

11-06-2013, 12:36 AM

Ya, by 3 years. Winchester 1886. Rossi 1889.

Don't think I'd place Brazil into the 3rd world category.

1903 & 2010 are not 3 years a part.

Every firearm Ive ever seen from Brazil or Italy ARE Third world CRAFTSMANSHIP

When the followed the name Taurus with the word "Bull" they got it right

jcwit

11-06-2013, 01:00 AM

1903 & 2010 are not 3 years a part.

Every firearm Ive ever seen from Brazil or Italy ARE Third world CRAFTSMANSHIP

When the followed the name Taurus with the word "Bull" they got it right

Winchester as a company was founded in 1866. Rossi was founded in 1869.

As far as craftsmanship, that is an opinion and subjective at best.

Just as saying EVERYTHING from china is trash, much as I regret to say.

starmac

11-06-2013, 01:21 AM

When did rossi, start making the 92?? That is what I took it as he was saying. I have never owned a rossi of any kind, but I see threads here everyday about buying new ones and putting decent stocks, ordering videos on how to get them to work right. I doubt the brazil M70's are selling any cheaper than they when they were made here, and I know the jap levers aren't, and jap labor costs more than ours per hour.

fouronesix

11-06-2013, 02:04 AM

Never owned or fired a Rossi so, I probably should disqualify myself from advising you. But, can't resist; the Winchester will almost certainly appreciate. The Rossi? Don't know. Although you can rarely go wrong acquiring a Winchester, if your patient, you can probably find one that's in a little higher condition.

smokeywolf

Same here. Own or have owned a bunch of old Win lever guns but never owned a Rossi-- and likely never will.

It's hard to tell, relatively, how many Winchesters in better condition are available in Australia. Two ways to look at it. Neither of those guns are collector types. So get either one and shoot the snot out of it. Or hold out and with a little more money, patience and luck get a Win 92 in better condition and with a better bore. As far as caliber, there is not much real difference between a 44-40 and a 38-40. Both are excellent in revolver or carbine, so that should be of no consequence.

One final thing that is just my opinion so take with a grain-o-salt. Every time I look at any gun, I've learned to look past the "shine and new". I look at the details of the finish. Rossi guns just seem to look like they've spent a bunch of time on a sander and/or buffer where wood to metal fit is "blurred"- obviously for eye appeal. I know that's very subtle but should not be confused with proper inletting/mating first then flat filing the two surfaces together.

BruceB

11-06-2013, 02:15 AM

[QUOTE=Lead Fred;2463780]

"Every firearm Ive ever seen from Brazil or Italy ARE Third world CRAFTSMANSHIP."

I might agree on Brazilian "craftsmanship".... but ITALY? You're swinging a very wide brush there. Have you never seen a Beretta? A Perazzi? GOOD Italian guns are very good indeed, and are often created with a large dose of taste and artistry in the bargain.

On the original topic..... Winchester all the way, no question.

smokeywolf

11-06-2013, 02:18 AM

Winchester as a company was founded in 1886. Rossi was founded in 1889.

As far as craftsmanship, that is an opinion and subjective at best.

Just as saying EVERYTHING from china is trash, much as I regret to say.

I'm a little confused. Or, maybe I just don't know the technical definition of "founded". But, in 1867 the incorporators of Winchester Repeating Arms Co. met at the then office of New Haven Arms Co. to send out a notice of the first stockholders meeting.
In 1869 Winchester's stockholder list showed that there was a total of 4,500 shares of stock and that Oliver F. Winchester held 2,040 of those shares.

Can you explain how several hundred thousand firearms with barrel addresses saying "Winchester Repeating Arms Company" were produced prior to the company being "founded"?

smokeywolf

andym79

11-06-2013, 07:59 AM

Well I just couldn't resist; to me there is something synonyms with lever action and Winchester!

Hope I made the right call, one things for sure rifles were made better (to last) in 1903 than they are today.

jcwit

11-06-2013, 11:24 AM

I'm a little confused. Or, maybe I just don't know the technical definition of "founded". But, in 1867 the incorporators of Winchester Repeating Arms Co. met at the then office of New Haven Arms Co. to send out a notice of the first stockholders meeting.
In 1869 Winchester's stockholder list showed that there was a total of 4,500 shares of stock and that Oliver F. Winchester held 2,040 of those shares.

Can you explain how several hundred thousand firearms with barrel addresses saying "Winchester Repeating Arms Company" were produced prior to the company being "founded"?

smokeywolf

Here you go, please note paragraph 4 from this link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_rifle

jcwit

11-06-2013, 11:35 AM

Side note here.

Brazilian craftsmanship. Mitutoyo has a precision tool plant located there. Some there must know what they're doing.

Yes the U.S.A is a great country, no doubt about it, and we used and still do make high quality goods.

BUT, we are not alone in this world making quality goods, check where most digital camera's are made, not here, where are the highest quality watches made, not here, where is the highest quality .22 ammo coming from, not here, where are most electronics made, not here.

The list goes on and on, not putting down American manufacturing, but these are the facts.

smokeywolf

11-06-2013, 01:30 PM

Here you go, please note paragraph 4 from this link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_rifle

Guess you're going to have to hold my hand on this one. I see references to the Volcanic, the Rocket ball and the 22 rimfire; nothing about Winchester being founded in 1886.

smokeywolf

cbrick

11-06-2013, 02:07 PM

A fine example of American history, nostalgia and the beginnings of 125 years of lever gun tradition.

Maybe it's just me but I cannot imagine what the question may be or where any question could come from.

Rick

K-Rod

11-06-2013, 02:54 PM

Here you go, please note paragraph 4 from this link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_rifle

Im not sure what wikipedia has to say but the book I have on the history of Winchester says that in April 1857, Oliver Winchester & John M. Davies bought the bankrupt Volcanic Repeating Arms Company & re-named it New Haven Arms Company. In 1866 Benjamin Henrey felt he wasn't getting paid enough for his part & tried to get the Connecticut legislature to award him the New Haven Arms Company. Oliver Winchester stalled it & re-organized the company & named it Winchester Repeating Arms Company. Thats also the year the first Offical Winchester rifle was manufactured. The Model 1866.

John Allen

11-06-2013, 03:05 PM

No choice, the winchester.

jcwit

11-06-2013, 03:41 PM

Im not sure what wikipedia has to say but the book I have on the history of Winchester says that in April 1857, Oliver Winchester & John M. Davies bought the bankrupt Volcanic Repeating Arms Company & re-named it New Haven Arms Company. In 1866 Benjamin Henrey felt he wasn't getting paid enough for his part & tried to get the Connecticut legislature to award him the New Haven Arms Company. Oliver Winchester stalled it & re-organized the company & named it Winchester Repeating Arms Company. Thats also the year the first Offical Winchester rifle was manufactured. The Model 1866.

Im not sure what wikipedia has to say

So click on the link and you will find what Wikipedia has to say.

Opps I typed 1886 & 1889 in both cases, will correct to 1866 & 1869. Thanks

jcwit

11-06-2013, 03:47 PM

Guess you're going to have to hold my hand on this one. I see references to the Volcanic, the Rocket ball and the 22 rimfire; nothing about Winchester being founded in 1886.

smokeywolf

Typed in the wrong decade, I corrected it. correct years are 1866 & 1869.

smokeywolf

11-06-2013, 03:52 PM

Typed in the wrong decade, I corrected it. correct years are 1886 & 1869.

Want to try that one more time?

K-Rod

11-06-2013, 03:59 PM

I honestly don't look too much into what Wikipedia says. Anybody can input stuff there & a lot of times, I have found the info to be wrong. It may or may not be in this case but I didnt bother looking. I just read it in the book I have.

I think smokey was just trying to say that there was a lot of Winchester rifles manufactured prior to the 1886 year you mentioned in your original post. A lot of rifles can be manufactured in 20yrs.

smokeywolf

11-06-2013, 04:08 PM

My info came from Harold Williamson's book, "Winchester the Gun That Won the West"

smokeywolf

K-Rod

11-06-2013, 04:27 PM

http://www.amazon.com/Winchester-Repeating-Arms-Company-Development/dp/0873412850#reader_0873412850

Heres the book I have. Its a great read & recommend it to anyone thats interested.

Im sorry if all of this has de-railed the thread. I have both Winchesters & the older Rossi Puma's. Though I agree that the value of the Winchester will continue to increase, I have been very fortunate (if you base it on the majority of opinion) to own two great older Rossi rifles. I wouldnt sell any of them & I will continue to purchase both makes (Older Rossi Puma's) if the opportunity presents it's self.

If it were me, being that the Rossi is a Puma, I'd buy both & be one happy camper:bigsmyl2:

smokeywolf

11-06-2013, 04:42 PM

Don't know Mr. Houze personally, but had the honor and pleasure to speak with him over the phone a few years ago. He was engaging, knowledgeable and helpful.

K-Rod

11-06-2013, 05:29 PM

Don't know Mr. Houze personally, but had the honor and pleasure to speak with him over the phone a few years ago. He was engaging, knowledgeable and helpful.

That has been my experience with most of the "Winchester" folk that I've talked with. I picked up a 2 digit Winchester model 92 16" trapper in 44-40 this year. I called Winchester about it & my call was transfered to Glenn, the Winchester Historian. We had a great conversation about my Trapper & other topics. He was polite, knowlegdeable & passionate about Winchesters in general. He went so far as to call the Cody museum & got me some information about my Trapper that would've cost me $75 if I had inquired about it. Just an all around great guy & it was a pleasure talking with him.

Theres something relaxing about a Winchester. Some of my fondest moments in the winter time I can recall involves an Old Winchester, an oil rag, a nice fire in the fireplace, a good bottle of Whiskey & my Blue Heeler Bailey laying on her bed next to my chair.

jcwit

11-06-2013, 05:49 PM

Want to try that one more time?

Just did! HELP, HELP!

FergusonTO35

11-06-2013, 07:37 PM

I still say that Rossi is overpriced at $580.00. My LGS has a brand new 92 in .44 Magnum with full octagon and curved buttplate for $499.95. I examined it today: the action is smooth, the blue is even and attractive, and the wood to metal fit is at least as good as the New Haven made Marlin 1895 next to it.

fouronesix

11-06-2013, 07:49 PM

MarkP

11-06-2013, 08:12 PM

If you go by the Blue Book (which I know is subjective) an older Rossi SRC model 92 Round barrel Puma lists for $895-$600 from 100% to 90% condition.

The older Puma's with the Cat medallion though not a Winchester, shouldn't be confused with a newer Rossi M92 when it comes to value.

Yes the older Rossi is nicer much nicer than the newer versions I have seen on display. I would say pretty close to being on par with my post 64 M 94's.

andym79

11-06-2013, 10:03 PM

I don't know if either rifle was overpriced. I think prices are a little different in Australia.

I also think judging by the number of the older Winchester lever carbines that seem to be in Australia, the biggest factor would be condition- specifically bore condition.

All no matter as the Winchester was purchased- not a bad choice really as the premium value and history favors the Winchester. Now to get it shooting straight. The 38-40 is a very good, easy to live with round.

Neither is overpriced here, firearms are between 25 and 75% more expensive than the States deepending on make and model!

I couldn't speculate as s to how many old 1892 there are here, I think they were popular. The one I have purchased is vary from the best cosmetically but it does appear (fingers crossed) to have a good bore!

I will posted more pictures when I get it 7-10 days time.

Now we are talking about shooting it, do you think it wise to get a gunsmith to check it over before I do? I didn't with the 1913 Carl Gustav!

In addition what are good load for the 38-40? The new edition of Lymans cast reloading manual doesn't include the 38-40! The 1980 version has loads for unique, red dot and green dot. I might give traillboss a go (made some rather sweet target loads in a 30-30 and 45-70 using it), I am never really keen on using powders that are very easy to double or even tripple charge!

fouronesix

11-06-2013, 11:52 PM

Both the Win 1886 and the Win 1892 are very strong lever actions. With the 92 being designed for short carbine/pistol rounds I can't imagine any safety issue. The regular Lyman Handbooks and the Lee manual do have 38-40 loads listed as well as IMR Cowboy Action data and the Hodgdon data center at this link: http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

The thing is to get the bore cleaned up after you get it and slug the bore to see what the dimensions are. Although you may be restricted in attempting to get a regular mold to drop much larger than the standard groove diameter. I have several originals in Win 73, 92 and Colt SAA. They all shoot the traditional flat base, round nose, flat point 180 gr fairly soft alloy bullet sized to .401 extremely well.

I've used Trailboss, Unique, 2400 and 5744 in the 38-40. Best results seem to be around 800 fps. I keep the velocities and pressures fairly low so I don't have to worry about mixing ammo with the Colt revolver and have standardized all the ammo around Trailboss loads at about 800 fps (carbine vels). Not because the Win 92 can't handle a bunch more pressure but because that has proven to be a very accurate load and the pressure is well within what the Colt can handle.

TXGunNut

11-07-2013, 07:07 PM

That seems to be a good price on the Winchester compared to what I'm seeing. I think you could buy both for what I've seen Winchesters selling for here. I've gotten good reports on the Puma, seems like they've gone up a bit.
If I were buying it I'd jump on the Winchester but I don't recall reading what you are planning on doing with the rifle. Also don't know what cartridges you prefer. Come to think of it, I'd probably be happier with both.

Speedo66

11-07-2013, 08:54 PM

[QUOTE=andym79;24651
In addition what are good load for the 38-40? The new edition of Lymans cast reloading manual doesn't include the 38-40! The 1980 version has loads for unique, red dot and green dot. I might give traillboss a go (made some rather sweet target loads in a 30-30 and 45-70 using it), I am never really keen on using powders that are very easy to double or even tripple charge![/QUOTE]

I've been using TrailBoss in my original '73 38-40 and it likes it just fine. Just about impossible to double load it. Light load of 5g with a Missouri Bullets .401 cast 180g round nose flat tip bullet seems to be quite accurate, and feeds perfectly. I was hitting bowling pins at 60 yards (55m.) with regularity. If you're looking for a punch in the shoulder though, look elsewhere. With the weight of the '73, you can barely feel it go off.

shdwlkr

11-07-2013, 10:02 PM

Well a few weeks ago I was in my LGS and was asking if they ever got in any winchester mdl 94's in 25-35 and they handed me two one priced around $800 and in sad shape and the other was priced at $1600 and in really nice shape.
looked both over really good and made a decision and am not sorry about my choice.
Yes I like winchester have for almost 50 years now and yes I have sold, traded way to many and makes me sick today to see what I could have if I had hung onto them.
My first winchester 94 was made in the early 1900's and like a dope I traded for something newer that went down the road a few years later. I paid maybe $100 or less for the first one so many decades ago.