Lee 125-grain FN Bullet for Marlin 1894C -- Accuracy Problems

[Jeff82]

I've been using the Lee 158-grain RNFP bullet in my Marlin 1894c sized to 0.359", but have been getting only so-so accuracy at 100 yards. This round shoots better with harder lubes, but then leads up. With 50/50 alox and beeswax I have no leading, but accuracy is significantly diminished. I'm pushing these rounds to about 1,300 fps.

I was thinking of trying the Lee 125-grain FN at about the same velocity as an alternative. Can anyone give me some advice.

I'm trying to keep my shots within an eight-inch circle at 100-yards firing supported with ghost sights adn old eyes.

This same Lee 158-grain RNFP cartridge is very accurate when fired from my Ruger Blackhawk at 25 and 50 yards.

Thanks,

--Jeff

[williamwaco]

No advice. - Don't know. Should work with the 50/50

I hate hard lubes. You might try pushing it a little harder with the hard lube but they generally work ok at 1100 fps or higher ( In my 9mm )

I get 6" at 100 yards with that same bullet ( 158 RFP ) sized .358 using 50/50 from my Thompson Contender.
I get the same size groups with 3.5 gr Bullseye and 11.6 grains AA9

[TCFAN]

I am using the same boolit in my 94C tumbled lubed with 45-45-10.Boolits are as cast and they drop from the mold at .359-.360. Accuracy is good enough to stay on a 6 inch steel plate at 100 yards using a red dot sight. The boolit is loaded in 38 special cases with 3.5 grs. of Bullseye.
If I want to go faster than this load then I use a gas check mold.Usually a 358156 lubed with BAC. Never have had any leading.......Terry

[FergusonTO35]

What kind of accuracy do you get at 50 or 75 yards? Remember, by the time your boolit reaches the target at 100 yards it has slowed down alot from 1300 fps. If I were you I would try adding a plain base gas check and push them a bit harder. My own 1894c with the same boolit gas checked with 13.6 grains H110 will print 2" at 60 yards no problem.

[Jeff82]

I haven't tested 50-yard accuracy from the Marlin in a long time. I'm planning on testing this next, since others have told me that this bullet out of a 1894c should give 5-shot group of under two inches when shot below 1,300 fps, and when pushed harder will give poorer grouping. Others have told me that they didn't get really good 100-yard accuracy out of the 1894c without gas checking.

[badguybuster]

Have you tried them with gas checks to avoid the leading?

[Jeff82]

I haven't tried gas checks yet. I'm trying to avoid using them, but I may have to break down and try them.

[30calflash]

From what I've heard (not tried) is that longer barrels can't handle high velocity with plainbase as a revolver can. They may run out of lube before they exit the barrel. Frank Marshall mentioned this in TFS from years past.

Maybe a bullet with more lube capacity or being the velocity down. Gas check would help.

[Jeff82]

I think that's exactly the problem. Even with hard lubes my revolvers have never had a leading problem. The lube I'm currently using does the trick, but for whatever reason it reduces accuracy and increases the number of flyers.

[FergusonTO35]

I use LLA applied thick to the grooves and bearing surface and Lyman Black Magic pan lubed with excellent results in my .357, .30-30, and .45-70 lever rifles. Both seem to work equally well. I also use gas checks in the .357 and .30-30.

[Larry Gibson]

Simply pushing them to fast for the alloy. What is the alloy? Back the ones you have off to 950 - 1050 fps and use a fast powder such as Bullseye.

Larry Gibson

[Jeff82]

The alloy I'm using is 3.5%/3/5% SB/SN low temperature annealled to a BHN of about 10.5 to 11.0. Interestingly, when I've backed down the velocity, 100 yard accuracy has tanked. If people hadn't indicated that they were getting 6" groups with 3.5grains of Bulleye, I would have thought that the reduced charges I tried just didn't have enough legs to keep things together at 100-yards.

I think I'll try testing this cartridge at 50-yards as suggested above, since most of the information I've seen on the Lee Cowboy bullet is in reference to 50-yard accuracy.

I'm currently on my 17th iteration for this cartridge. I'm beginning to wonder if I just have a bad barrel, since nothing really seems to follow logically.

Here's what I know:

1- Best performance is with a diameter of 0.359.
2- When using Universal powder accuracy is best near the recommended maximum loading.
3- Hard lubes give the best and really very good accuracy, but lead the barrel.
4- 50/50 beeswax/alox fixed the leading problem, but accuracy drops by about 20% from the all-time best load.
5- Increasing the BHN caused a loss of accuracy when using hard lubes. I haven't tried this yet with a 50/50 lube.
6- Decreasing the BHN with 50/50 lube and reducing velocity has reduced accuracy.

I'm purely guessing as to my next step. Perhaps larger targets!

[williamwaco]

Jeff,

Sounds like an enigma wrapped up in a conundrum.

I don't think it is the barrel length.

I have a Winchester and a Ruger .357 rifle both with 20 inch barrels.
Neither of them leads with soft bullets at 1700 fps ( BNH 8-10) Lubed with either LLA, or 50/50
I normally size .358 but .357 works fine for me too.

I am surprised that nobody has advised you to look at the muzzle for a "lube star"
If you are running out of lube, there will usually be a grey wash on the face of the muzzle crown. If not, there will be a coating of bullet lube, usually in the shape of a star oriented on the rifling grooves.

86565

In my experience leading is ofter caused by undersized bullets, especially hard undersized bullets.
I don't think your .359 sizing is undersize but you have already tried everything else

I would try .360 or unsized.

[FergusonTO35]

You might also try water dropping a batch of boolits and see if that changes anything. The extra surface hardness might give the rifling the extra grip it needs. It's an easy way to get some "free" hardness.

[gundownunder]

To eliminate a shoddy barrel try factory ammo. My Marlin will shoot better than 2 moa with factory ammo.
With 158gr cast I couldn't keep 5 shots on a dinner plate at 50yds with any kind of powder.
With a 180gr cast I can get about 3 moa with the slower powders like 2400, and 4227.
I usually cast with range scrap which is pretty hard at our club due to all the hard cast commercial bullits in use there.
For lube I use 1/3 beeswax, 1/3 liquid alox, and 1/3 lithium grease. Leading starts to occur after about 200 rounds.

[Jeff82]

I've thought about running some factory ammo through the carbine. It would at least be a basis for comparison, and I need some extra 357 brass anyway. Besides I wouldn't feel too badly if the accuracy of factory ammo was no better than my homemade stuff.

[Dave18]

having played with a marlin 357(ballard rifling), it seems to like the larger diameter and heavier bullets, when ranch dog was around, a lot of his data solved my accuracy issues, keep thinking my bullets were 360, and were 170grs, tumble lubed gas checked, just thrown together they shot right with my jacketed 158s at 100yds average groups of 2-3 inch, depending a lot on me holding still, on a good day 2-2 1/2 groups were the norm off a bench, with a old weaver 3x scope,

hope this helps on ideas,

need to dig that stuff back out again ;-) and make time to go shooting again, this working 7days a week BS is getting old,

[Groo]

Groo here
Try some Lee Alox, this lube works differently as it is on the areas that contact the bore.
Normal lube needs to melt to fill the gap between the bullet and bore, the first bullet lubing for the next in line etc.
Do not clean the bore , learned this from the .22lr target guys, you need about 10 shots to condition the bore to your lube.
If you clean, 10 more shots, I am working on trying a patch with Alox on it to "pre lube" the bore ????
You may need to go as big as .360 or as cast [tumble lubed] as marlins tend to have large bores.

[Jeff82]

I'd have a 0.360 die, but my bullets drop from the mold at 0359. Maybe a heavier bullet. Thanks for the advice.

[FergusonTO35]

LLA can work very well in rifles but it must be applied thicker than just tumble lubing. I like to brush the grooves and sides of the boolit with a q tip, let it dry for a day, then add another coat. I think the key is to coat every part that touches the bore.

[9w1911]

anything under 1000fps in my 1894c no gas check
1000+fps = gas check

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

A buddy had a Marlin .44 mag with micro-groove rifling. It ate every cast bullet I loaded for it. Usually just range scrap sized .430, with whatever lube I had in the mid-1980's. All plain based bullets from Lee molds. No TL. No problem even with the top end ones going 1850 fps.

I would not hesitate to do some fire-lapping. It usually helps most guns, and can't hurt really.

[yeahbub]

You could try "soft gas checks" (card wad and lube cookie). Charge the case, insert card wad and cut a lube cookie with the case mouth from a .080-.100 thick sheet of boolit lube, seat the boolit and you're in business. If your loads are at or near maximum, though, it would be wise to reduce them and work up due to the reduction in powder space. This is an easy way to have plenty of lube and get that lube star even if the grooved boolit won't hold enough for the longer barrels. Also it's not on the boolit, but under it and is easily shed on exit. I use 541 for this, 5 parts beeswax, 4 parts vegetable shortening and 1 part canola melted together and cast into the outside flat bottom of a butter cookie can. They have a depth of .080 or so and make a very convenient mold. They will shoot a leaded barrel clean when cast have been pushed too hard or some unknown alloy leaves a lot behind and is way more fun than scrubbing it out of there. This also works on cap-and-ball revolvers and was one of Elmer Keith's methods of keeping them accurate though I don't know what his lube was.

[FergusonTO35]

Wow, good tip!