Crazy results with Lee REAL's

[SeabeeMan]

My dad has been bugging me to cast up some Lee REAL bullets for him to try in his CVA Optima, so we finally did Friday night. This afternoon we went to shoot them and had some crazy results that I'm hoping you guys can help us figure out. The are with 250 and 320 50 cal REAL from pure lead (x-ray shielding and cable sheathing) with 100-120 grains of 777 and lubed with bore butter. The gun is on and shoots 2-3" groups with 290gr? powerbelts. Conditions were 10mph wind from the back and roughly 40 degrees.

Shots 1 & 2: 50 yards, 250gr REAL's & 100gr 777 were 2" high/1" left and 1" high, 1" right, so we figured we'd move right to 100 yards. He was surprised how clean the barrel was so no brush

Shot 3: 6" left/10" low
Shot 4: 6" left/ 10" high
Shot 5: 6" left/0" high

What the heck? Switch to 320's with 120gr 777

Shot 6: 12" left/18" low
Shot 7: 13" left/18" high
Shot 8: 12" left/0" high

We would have never found the impacts if it hadn't been a nearly new backer board and all the other holes were most likely from 22's. Normally vertical stringing would say slow down and let the barrel cool off, but that usually creeps upward, not jumps up 3' and then levels off. Plus it was a cool, breezy day and we were going down range between shots, more than enough time to stay cool. Where do we go from here? We also noticed that while they aren't impossible to start, the force needed deforms the nose a bit. We are going to look for a different starter tip to fit these better and if nothing else, drill one out and make it with hot glue or JB weld.

[aspangler]

Try reducing the powder charge. You may be trying to push them to hard. Happened to me just last week.

[Squeeze]

yep, try a lower charge, maybe start with 80 grn next time and see how it goes

[Green Lizzard]

i like 80 grains and a walters wad, but mine is a 48 twist

[SeabeeMan]

He's going to go back out tomorrow morning and I'll post results. Thank for the advice.

[mooman76]

Pushing them too hard in too tight a twist and striping the Reals. Like others said try lowering the charge and using an over powder wad.

[johnson1942]

green lizard is right. 80 grains or less and a walter wad and things should be better. with the amount of powder your useing your in the powder charge area of paperpatched bullets. also if you make the habit of one nice damp patch followed by two dry ones you can really test those bullets with the reduced charge. cleaning isnt hard once you get used to it. after the first shot this method doesnt make the barrel put away clean but keeps the barrel semifowled and the same from shot to shot.usually you best accracy is from a barrel like this both in muzzle loader and black powder cartridge rifles. have fun

[Rattus58]

My dad has been bugging me to cast up some Lee REAL bullets for him to try in his CVA Optima, so we finally did Friday night. This afternoon we went to shoot them and had some crazy results that I'm hoping you guys can help us figure out. The are with 250 and 320 50 cal REAL from pure lead (x-ray shielding and cable sheathing) with 100-120 grains of 777 and lubed with bore butter. The gun is on and shoots 2-3" groups with 290gr? powerbelts. Conditions were 10mph wind from the back and roughly 40 degrees.

Shots 1 & 2: 50 yards, 250gr REAL's & 100gr 777 were 2" high/1" left and 1" high, 1" right, so we figured we'd move right to 100 yards. He was surprised how clean the barrel was so no brush

Shot 3: 6" left/10" low
Shot 4: 6" left/ 10" high
Shot 5: 6" left/0" high

What the heck? Switch to 320's with 120gr 777

Shot 6: 12" left/18" low
Shot 7: 13" left/18" high
Shot 8: 12" left/0" high

We would have never found the impacts if it hadn't been a nearly new backer board and all the other holes were most likely from 22's. Normally vertical stringing would say slow down and let the barrel cool off, but that usually creeps upward, not jumps up 3' and then levels off. Plus it was a cool, breezy day and we were going down range between shots, more than enough time to stay cool. Where do we go from here? We also noticed that while they aren't impossible to start, the force needed deforms the nose a bit. We are going to look for a different starter tip to fit these better and if nothing else, drill one out and make it with hot glue or JB weld.
Way too much powder and way too much twist .... It's a poor bullet in its normal function, but we use them with kids at about 30-50 grains. I size them to .503 and they load straighter I think and thus more accurately but a tight twist is too much for it with any kind of a heavy load.

[Lead Fred]

I will never understand why peeps waste so much powder, even the crappy fake stuff.

[Boerrancher]

The other thing to consider besides lowering the powder is to make sure your seating pressure is consistent. The projectile should just touch the powder charge with the slightest amount of pressure. Seating pressure can change the point of impact by as much as 4 inches at 25 yards on some of my rifles. That translates out to 20 inches at 100 yards.

Joe

[725]

You guys beat me to the punch: 70 or 80 grs powder, consistent loading pressure. Two biggies.

[Omnivore]

I'll reinforce the idea of using an over-powder wad also. I don't understand why, but it tightened up my 50 yard groups a lot. I still get terrible results with the REALs at 100 though, from a 48" twist barrel, using (I forget now) either 80 or 90 grains Goex 2F and a Wonderwad. The patched ball is still my go-to projectile for hunting, and it works out to 100 yards or better.

Lee has claimed that the REAL bullets are good for "Magnum" loads (which I take to be at least 100 grains and probably more). Maybe they should come over and show us.

[tomme boy]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?139407-Range-day&highlight=tomme+boy

Here is a link to how one of my BP rifles shoot at 100 yds. 80grs. of 3F. They do not like to be hot rodded. And they shoot better with a overpowder wad.

[fouronesix]

i like 80 grains and a walters wad, but mine is a 48 twist

That's the recipe I found for the Maxi 30-40 years ago (can't remember exactly) and have never been able to improve upon it. Spent huge amount of range time with a scope mounted T/C 50 cal "Hawken" exploring every variable I could think of. Since then have played with various other solid base conical designs in various MLs including a brief "fall to the dark side" with a 50 cal 28" twist inline. But the general formula seems fairly consistent.

So, agree with most all the other posts on this. Back off the charge, maybe clean between shots, use pure lead, lube with a soft lube and try an overpowder/base wad.

Interested to hear about results.

[curator]

I use the Lee 320REAL and 75-80 grains of FFg with excellent accuracy in my CVA Wolf. I also put a .50 hard-felt wad between powder and boolit. Works almost as well with 70 grains of 2F triple 7 or Pyrocrap RS. Accuracy deteriorates with more powder.

[Kylongrifle]

First post here so Hi..Anyway I tried Lee reals in my encore just for fun..I shoot mostly traditional muzzleloaders but I occasionally like to hunt with my .50 encore..It shoots very well with about anything Ive tried in it..Mostly power belts over 100 grains..I tried Lee 250 grain reals over 70 grains and 100 grains..It was just all over the place..Now to be honest I fully expected it..the 1-28 twist is a bit to fast for such a short conical..

[roverboy]

I use the Lee 320REAL and 75-80 grains of FFg with excellent accuracy in my CVA Wolf. I also put a .50 hard-felt wad between powder and boolit. Works almost as well with 70 grains of 2F triple 7 or Pyrocrap RS. Accuracy deteriorates with more powder.

I see your not a fan of Pyrocrap either. I like Goex and will sometimes use Triple 7.

[mooman76]

First post here so Hi..Anyway I tried Lee reals in my encore just for fun..I shoot mostly traditional muzzleloaders but I occasionally like to hunt with my .50 encore..It shoots very well with about anything Ive tried in it..Mostly power belts over 100 grains..I tried Lee 250 grain reals over 70 grains and 100 grains..It was just all over the place..Now to be honest I fully expected it..the 1-28 twist is a bit to fast for such a short conical..

Try an over powder wad and it should shoot allot better.

[NSP64]

Well???

[Kylongrifle]

Your right twist isnt everything but it means something. Ive personally had better results from a 1-48 barrel with conicals than I have with 1/32 or 1/28 but thats just me. Every gun is different, especially with frontstuffers.None of my guns like the r.e.a.l's much to be honest..They all like the maxi balls and great planes bullets better as far as conicals go..Though my Kentucky with its 1-66 twist likes PRB's better by a wide margin. I normally start at about 50 gr's and work my way up to see what it likes best..I can get marginal groups with almost anything in any of them but I generally stick to what shoots best. I shoot real BLACK in all my guns except the encore..

[nanuk]

....also if you make the habit of one nice damp patch followed by two dry ones you can really test those bullets with the reduced charge. cleaning isnt hard once you get used to it. ...

what I do, is take a patch, wet it on my tongue, and with a 50cal jag, push it with strokes, about 10" each increasing my depth... down to the bottom. I then stroke about 5-7 times then work my way back up.

then I flip that same patch over, and repeat without wetting.

then, pour powder, stuff some dacron fluff (about the size of a lemon) and seat a boolit. I seat them fairly hard.

works for me.

also, I NEVER use pellets anymore, only PyroCrap, (only powder readily available locally... black is non-existant)

pellets are very inconsistant, often not one pellet not even firing if the boolit went in with little resistance.

I've tried a combination of 50gr/30gr to get the weight I wanted, and still ended up with using loose....

always wanted to try T7 but can't afford it, as I have to drive a ways to find it.

[Newtire]

I used 60 grains Pyrodex P in my TC Hawken 1-48" twist with the short REAL .50 cal. and anything over that, the groups really went South. I was using maxi-lube by T/C and no overpowder wad. I have a .58 cal. CVA Mountain Rifle now and dread thinking about shooting those big mammas. I am going out this Friday though with some round balls and 80-90 grains 2F black and see what happens. Would like to take that thing out deer hunting next fall.

[SeabeeMan]

He still hasn't made it back out to the range. I just picked up a Knight Bighorn so hopefully I'll be able to try something this weekend.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

I would go all the way down to 50 gr of powder and fire 3 then 55 firing 3 then 60 , 65 ,70, 75 , 80 , 85, 90 I bet before you get to 90 you find a nice group at 25 yards , when it then falls apart go back to the best group and move to 50 yards most muzzle loader deer come withing 75 yards , most deer i have ever shot were within 75 yards. but most of the woods i hunt you can't see much further

I have a 1:28 that shoots 320s or 250s with 60 gr but 90 is all over the place

and a 1:48 that thinks 60-70gr is nice also

a 320 gr 50cal will punch right through a white tail deer even at 60 or 70 gr of powder without any problem

I use 3fg black

[Whiterabbit]

your results match mine. I gave up on the REALs. they work for some folks with my exact gun, but not me! I'll just shoot the sabots.

[Lefty Red]

I have shot REALs out of every twist and noticed:
1) anything over 80grs of T7 or 70grs of BH209 is a waste.
2) a lubed over wad is a must.
3) anything over 100 yards, at the range, and I feel like I am pitching a softball!

My Omega loves 45 cal bullets and sabots, but I really want to use a Minnie or Ballet or REAL to take a deer.

Lefty

[Kylongrifle]

I have shot REALs out of every twist and noticed:
1) anything over 80grs of T7 or 70grs of BH209 is a waste.
2) a lubed over wad is a must.
3) anything over 100 yards, at the range, and I feel like I am pitching a softball!

My Omega loves 45 cal bullets and sabots, but I really want to use a Minnie or Ballet or REAL to take a deer.

Lefty

Just curious but have you tried maxi balls in your omega?