Soft Lube for a .45 ACP 1911

[Fluxed]

I'm having a little trouble with lube build up in the chamber in a 1911 pistol. Its got a Kart barrel, head space is good, throat is correct and the chamber is big enough at the front end. (I cast the chamber with cerrosafe). I'm using White Label Carnuba Red which works great as a lube but the slight build up at the front of the chamber keeps giving problems with the gun not going fully into battery. A build up of the hard lube is the problem, I think. Is there a softer lube that might be trouble free for 150-200 rounds? I'm thinking of going to an old standard 50/50 type lube.

What does your experience say?

[ShooterAZ]

White label BAC is much softer. It is a blend of 50/50 and Carnuaba Red. I use it a lot in 45 ACP, and in the warmer months I blend it with CR to stiffen it up a little. Plain old 50/50 would be softer as well. Either one works fine for me.

[Iowa Fox]

The Lyman 452460 is the bullet that goes through my 1911 95% of the time. I started with the old standard 50/50 and it worked well but it was kind of sticky. I also used a lot of speed green which worked well but a little sticky. I don't mind sticky normally but with the 45 acp you normally have a big pile of them as the 1911 eats bullets so everything gets a little sticky. The best lube I have used for the 452460 is the stuff Wayne Doudna used and was selling at his Custom Cast Bullets operation. Unfortunately I can't seem to find out what it was and Wayne seems to have vanished. The lube flowed so easily through the Star with just a hint of heat completely filling the lube groves, wasn't really sticky when you had a big pile of bullets, and did a first class job of low smoke and gave reliable action of the pistol. I'm thinking about trying some of the magma lube next just for the 452460 bullets. I have other sizers set up with Carnuba Red, Speed Green, LBT Blue, and 50/50. They all do an excellent job for certain bullets and applications. I hate loading up a new lube in a sizer just to find out I don't care for it.

[Ed_Shot]

I'm not having any problems using White Label 2500+ in .45 ACP or any other pistol or rifle for that matter. It is supposedly only slightly stiffer than BAC.

What boolit are you using for .45 ACP?

[Larry Gibson]

+ another for trying BAC or the 50/50 lube.

Larry Gibson

[ultramag]

I'm using the BAC as well in a couple different .45 ACP's with tight match grade chambers and have never had this issue either. I'd been thinking about trying the Carnuba Red on my next purchase. Zero problems with BAC, just wish I could toss the lubed and sized bullets in a container and not worry about the lube ending up messed up.

[wv109323]

I use the White Label Carnuba Red in my .45 ACP and don't have a problem. I also have a Kart barrel that I shoot Bullseye Pistol with. I really do not suspect the lube is your problem. Make sure your loads will easily drop into and out of the chamber( with the barrel out of the gun).
A few things I would check before changing lubes are:
Brush and clean the chamber two or three times with solvent.
Bullet Crimp, It should be .469 -.470. Hold two of your loaded rounds up beside each other with the sides touching. You should be able to see the "V" that the side by side crimps make at the mouth of the cases.
Extractor Tension/Problems- Make up some dummy rounds,load them in the gun, and hold the slide as it goes forward to slow it down. See if there is resistance when the head of the case slips up under the extractor. Also look at some fired cases to see if there is a mark where the extractor is hitting the base of the case. If the extractor is too long it can hold the slide out of full battery.
Next thing might be the magazine. I recently had a magazine that released the round too early and the rear of the case was too high to feed into the chamber. Number your mags to see if the problem is associated with one mag.
Going with a softer lube will not hurt. I don't like a soft lube in hot weather. It is kinda messy.

[MtGun44]

Probably not the lube. You are taper crimping to .465-.470 at the case mouth
as a separate operation, right? Possible too long LOA, too.

Bill

[Fluxed]

I'm shooting the H&G 34 at .452", 4 gr. VV310. Loaded, taper crimped ammo is .469. OAL is OK, throat is correct. Gun has + .002-.003 head space. Extractor is good, mags are good, gun works fine until it gets dirty, about 30 rounds or so. I can push the slide home with my thumb when it fails. If I eject the loaded round, its got a hard sticky grease ring (a dirty black version of CR lube) around the case mouth area (on the brass, not the bullet). Its the grease ring that is causing the bind. The cartridges are clean and shiny when loaded.

I'll try some with a tighter crimp and a bit more powder. I am using mixed range brass so I'll check for fat/thick necked cases. I wonder if its just not quite hot enough to seal the case against the chamber. But, its not really all that mild a load.

Keep the suggestions coming, and thanks.

[btroj]

Try a softer lube. You could melt down the CR you have and add a teaspoonful of Vaseline per stock for starters. See if that helps. Go slow and add a bit more if it isn't quite soft enough. I bet a teaspoon per stick will do the trick quite nicely. It might get a bit gooey in the heat but it will run fine.

[bruce381]

Me I have 2 KART guns and both run fine with a .471-.472 tapper crimp i kinda like the case a little larger at the chamber end kinda helps to "center" it?
SAECO #69 sized .4525 and lubed with BAC

[knifemaker]

I would think that your problem is more about why are you getting a "hard sticky grease ring" at the front of the chamber. Are you failing to bell your cases enough and when you seat the bullet the case wall mouth is scraping lube and leaving it deposited at the end of the case mouth?
My match gun has a Kart barrel and I also use white label BAC or 2500 and never had the problem you are having. Take a look at your case and see if during the seat process if the case mouth is pushing lube to the front of the bullet. You may also be scraping a wee bit of lead.
While testing my match gun for reliabilty, I used it in 3 matches with out cleaning and with pratice rounds that was over 400 rounds and did not encounter your problem or any other problem.
Somehow that hard lube is getting to the front of the case mouth and should not.

[Fluxed]

Nope, I'm belling enough and there's no crud at the case mouth, no shaving. That would be too easy to fix! I did write this above: "The cartridges are clean and shiny when loaded." And I'd think that 3-400 rounds would be a reasonable number for 100% function before any cleaning was mandated.

I sure agree with this:
"I would think that your problem is more about why are you getting a "hard sticky grease ring" at the front of the chamber."

It was about 50 degrees today, that might cause any lube build up to be harder than normal.

[Lead Fred]

I keep all that good wax for me rifles, the 45 get X-Lox

[thehouseproduct]

I run equal parts paraffin, beeswax, and Vaseline and it seems to run just about anything ok. Tough to live size when it drops below 50 but otherwise fine. More than a bit smokey.

[btroj]

CR doesn't flow as well in cold as many other lubes. I too find that it creates a somewhat gummy residue when temps begin to drop. I have had some problems in my 1911 with the same sore of thing. After a few hundred rounds the chamber gets sticky, and gummy. Every so often the slide fails to go fully forward due to this. It is very temp dependent.

I eliminated it by changing lubes. I could have just as easily modified the CR with some Vaseline. This would help reduce the stickiness but more importantly it changes the viscosity of the lube, makes it flow better. CR is a great rifle lube and it works in handguns but it does have a few issues, this is one of the them. I also find it doesn't do well in colder temps.

I have moved on to other lubes.

[jmsj]

Fluxed,
Felix World Famous Lube (FWFL) is not a store bought lube but it is what I use. With my cast bullets sized .4525"and taper crimped to .470"-.471" I really don't get any leading. I recently finished shooting about 350 rounds of H&G 130's over 4 grains of BE out of a newly built gun and was able to clean the bore using 2 patches over a jag. I just pushed the 2 patches over the jag through the bore and it was clean. The gun was functioning perfectly before cleaning. This kind if performance is what I expect from FWFL in target type loads.
Good luck, jmsj

[jonk]

I can't say enough good things about felix lube, though I switched to BAC for most of my needs when I used up the Felix stuff. That said, I recently got 2 sticks of 50/50 for free and popped one into the lube sizer. Any of the above work fine; though to be honest, I usually just tumble lube for most handgun bullets.

[Lights]

I mix 1 stick of BAC to 1 /2 stick of CR. It has worked great in my Ed Brown match barrel.

[Fluxed]

Fluxed,
Felix World Famous Lube (FWFL) is not a store bought lube but it is what I use. With my cast bullets sized .4525"and taper crimped to .470"-.471" I really don't get any leading. I recently finished shooting about 350 rounds of H&G 130's over 4 grains of BE out of a newly built gun and was able to clean the bore using 2 patches over a jag. I just pushed the 2 patches over the jag through the bore and it was clean. The gun was functioning perfectly before cleaning. This kind if performance is what I expect from FWFL in target type loads.
Good luck, jmsj

Yep, that's what I'm looking for. I'll check out FWFL.
What I'm doing now is all good but for the hard lube build up.

What about Simple Green or Simple Lube anyone?

4 oz's beeswax [by weight solid]
4 teaspoons of white petrolatum [vaseline]
2 teaspoons of two stroke oil [i use cd-2]
2 teaspoons of atf [i use dexron]
you can add 1/8th teaspoon of lanolin if you wish.

[ShooterAZ]

It works. I made some of it when I first started casting. How to make your own lube is a good thing to know. You will probably find that you will come out $$$ ahead by just buying some BAC. That is... if you can get it. I heard that White Label had a fire at their shop. My wife wasn't real happy with me when I was making lube...I "borrowed" some of her measuring cups:)

[Char-Gar]

I ran 1/4 million rounds of cast bullets 1911 handguns with no problems that could be traced to bullet lube.

I used a home brew of beeswax soften with enough Vaseline to work in a Lyman lubesize machine. Probably about 65/35 (wax to Vaseline).

It really is quite easy to get a 1911 pistol to run well with cast bullet handloads. I sorta scratch my head at the various accounts I read here and other places about folks with these kinds of problems.

[Fluxed]

I ran 1/4 million rounds of cast bullets 1911 handguns with no problems that could be traced to bullet lube.

I used a home brew of beeswax soften with enough Vaseline to work in a Lyman lubesize machine. Probably about 65/35 (wax to Vaseline).

It really is quite easy to get a 1911 pistol to run well with cast bullet handloads. I sorta scratch my head at the various accounts I read here and other places about folks with these kinds of problems.

Yes, that's been my experience as well.
So I was surprised to run into this little hitch.

[TXGunNut]

My 1911's have stock Colt barrels, LLA keeps things going for longer than I'm willing to keep shooting.

[44man]

Been busy, haven't posted much but I need a few minutes rest.
I don't think it is the lube either. Lube really has a few functions, to keep fouling soft so the next boolit can push the bore clean, to prevent leading and a change in lubes can change accuracy.
I use Felix but CR and a lot of others work fine. I hate Alox as everyone knows but 50-50 will work.
Does lube seal gas? I don't think so, it does in an engine with low compression and rings but the ring is what does the job, they just need lube. That is not 15,000 to 60,000 PSI. So like a ring, the boolit must seal. Remember the piston going up has lube but when the gas goes off, there is no lube from above the piston except what was left on the cylinder walls.
Working lubes for years has shown a vast difference in accuracy between them. I even use Felix in rifles, see no sense in a hard lube but a little more hardness might be right for conditions like hot weather.
Something else is going on.
LLA will lead my big bore revolvers BAD and even the .357 hates it. My one .44 has not had the bore cleaned in 3 years, still deadly accurate with Felix. Alox might work with fairy loads in short barrels but I was pestered by a guy to load .38's. Gave him good stuff to start but tired of it. I made his last batch with LLA and he has never come back.
I have to think leading is the problem because I never seen a lube buildup but have seen ash from a lube burning behind the boolit. It is different then powder carbon. Carbon can be a diamond or graphite. It can lube or cut, be strong or weak.

[btroj]

CR left a waxy, gummy mess in the chamber of my 1911. In cooler weather I would get poor clambering as the round was slowed on entering the chamber.
I changed lubes and nothing else, the problem went away.

Felix lube won't cause this problem, I can assure you of that.

[ShooterAZ]

I have not had any problems, but I don't use straight CR. In the summer, BAC is too soft & messy, so I mix 3 parts BAC with 2 parts CR for a tad harder lube. In winter BAC is all I use in 45 ACP.

[22 rifle]

i like the old nra alox/beeswax lube,been working good for a lot of years now.there's a lot to say about something that has been proven over time.i guess that i'm old fashioned but i don't mind the stickiness so much when it works good and really helps prevent leading.

[Char-Gar]

I am a simple minded sort. IMHO there are only two kinds of lubes, those that work and those that don't work. If you are using the latter, change to one of the former.

I have never used any bullet lube that requires a heater, never! In fact I don't have a lube heater. Over the years I have used several bullet lubes and never had one give me the problem which is the subject of the post.

[grampa243]

I use Ben's Red in my 45ACP change the amount the wax to the softness you want.

[Fluxed]

Shot some more today with a bit more powder and a much heavier taper crimp. 75 rounds with no problems - just a little build up of lube in the chamber when I cleaned it. I'm going to try a softer lube next to see if there is less build up.

[GL49]

Hmmmm. I've always loaded my .45acp with COWW cast boolits sized .452, CR lube, taper crimped to .471, (taper crimping done on the 4th station of my 550 as a separate operation), brass sorted by headstamp and # of firings, using a load midrange between minimum and maximum in the loading books, and have not run into your problem. And like 44man, I don't clean my barrels much, only about every 4th or 5th trip to the range. That would be every 850-1000 rounds through a Springfield, a RIA, or a Norinco. Every once in a while my Norinco will eject a case straight back and it'll go down the front of my shirt, wish I could solve THAT problem by changing lube.:grin:
Next time I see my buddy, Roger, I'll ask him if he's had any problems with his 45, I've cast and lubed a couple thousand of the same boolits for him. I know he's taper crimping to .471 also.

[paul h]

It works. I made some of it when I first started casting. How to make your own lube is a good thing to know. You will probably find that you will come out $$$ ahead by just buying some BAC. That is... if you can get it. I heard that White Label had a fire at their shop. My wife wasn't real happy with me when I was making lube...I "borrowed" some of her measuring cups:)

I contacted White Label and they have bac ready to ship. They didn't loose all their inventory and I believe they've replaced their equipment and are back up and running.

Great folks and great lube.

[ACrowe25]

Bac works for my 1911/200 swcs

[bobthenailer]

I also have 2, 1911s with Kart NM barrels and 4 others with other makers NM barrels and use carnuba red with no problems .
After fitting the barrel did you hand ream the chamber with a finishing reamer ? as most match barrels that ive have experince with (2-Kart, 2-Nowlin, 2- Clark barrels) were slightly short chambered , they might be fine with jacketed but hang up with cast.boolets . the reamer may also just change the lead angle slightly which will help with cast going in all the way .

[Ol' Butch]

The problem may be bullet seating depth, not the lube. Seat bullet with the straight Bore bearing area out of the brass about the thickness of a thumb nail. Bullet then sets head space.

Remove and clean barrel and check seating depth to see that finished rounds drop in flush or just a below end of barrel hood.

Adequate flare, bullets .0005 to .001 over groove dia, 3.5 to 4.2 grains Bullseye powder, correct seating depth, taper crimp in a separate operate operation to .470. Recipe old as the hills and found on every Bullseye firing line, because it works.

No magic, seems to work about any lube, BAC, 50/50, the hard blue commercial stuff. A 1911 don't need much lube. I only fill 1 groove of the Lyman 452460 and never find any more than a wisp of lead just in front of the chamber.

[Bigslug]

Shot some more today with a bit more powder and a much heavier taper crimp. 75 rounds with no problems - just a little build up of lube in the chamber when I cleaned it. I'm going to try a softer lube next to see if there is less build up.

Just started reading this thread and it sounded like a taper crimp issue from the outset, and it sounds like you've got that under control. A couple of experiences of mine you might find helpful:

I used to work with a retired Marine who was on the pistol team back at the Dawn of Time. He found that the average .45 bore brush, while fine for the actual bore, was a tad small to properly clean the chamber. What he found to work was to use the mouth of a fired .30 carbine case to scrape residue out of the front of the chamber. I've found .38/.357 brass to work well in this role as well.

My agency's SWAT team uses 1911's, and for a time, we were using Winchester's Win-Clean for the little indoor training we do with those guns. Winclean wraps the jacket from the back of the bullet forward to eliminate the possibility of lead being vaporized by powder gasses. The result of this process is a truncated cone bullet with a small amount of exposed lead (5BHN pure, as best I can tell) at the nose. Due to some bizarre combination of gun, ammo, or (I'm guessing) timing of the magazine feed lips, the bullet would leave a small streak of lead at the 12:00 position of the chamber where the tip of the bullet impacts prior to nosing over to the horizontal. After about 30 rounds, this streak built up enough to where we were seeing feeding issues until a mag of hardball was run, or the bore was snaked or otherwise cleaned (Winchester was kind enough to swap us for straight hardball). I've not seen or heard of this phenomenon anywhere else, but it's worth keeping in mind as a variable if using softer alloys and conical-style boolits.

If you're running hardball-spec loads, It's my personal feeling that full-size 1911's run a little happier with 18.5# recoil springs in place of the standard GI 16# - a little softer on the recoil and a little better at getting recalcitrant rounds up the ramp.

[geargnasher]

Bottom line: USE A SOFTER LUBE.

I can't remember the last time I cleaned my Kimber's barrel or chamber, and I have an SA that I'm not certain I EVER cleaned. CR is just too hard for the pressures and stays at the end of the chamber (together with powder fouling) after the case is ejected. I had this gummy issue with the .40 when I used CR in it, fixed it by blending with BAC to soften it up. What happens is the space between the case mouth and end of the chamber is filled with lube blown from the groove as the pressure builds and the case expands, possibly even before the boolit moves out of the case. If the lube is too hard for the "system", or if it doesn't melt quickly enough, it won't get purged out of the chamber completely and will cause the gummies in 10-30 rounds.

No need to make Felix lube for the ACP, just make any of the simple lubes like Simple Lube, Speed Green, Vasi-Bee, Lithi-Bee, or just use BAC like has been mentioned my many people above. I even used Emmert's lube for a while in my 1911s just to see how it held up. It did fine.

Gear

[btroj]

That Gear, is a fact. CR leaves a sticky, gummy residue. I think that is why it gives cold barrel flyers below 50 degrees. You can feel the stickiness on the gun, the cases, and your hands.

I have found that about any soft, gooey lube works well. Hard lubes do well as they don't leave much residue at all.

[Fluxed]

Shot a bunch more today, still with CR. At this point I can say that the hard taper crimp seems to have cured the problem. It was just barely above freezing today, no problems. Next batch of boolits I make up I'm going to a soft lube anyway to get away from the heater. Otherwise, CR is a very fine lube.

[geargnasher]

CR IS a very fine lube, just not for what you're using it for.

Gear

[avogunner]

i like the old nra alox/beeswax lube,been working good for a lot of years now.there's a lot to say about something that has been proven over time.i guess that i'm old fashioned but i don't mind the stickiness so much when it works good and really helps prevent leading.

Same here. I've been using NRA 50/50 for my .45acp cast for many (many) years now with zero problems.