Advice for loading with the Round Ball.

[newcastter]

I am looking for some good advice from you knowledgeable shotgun reloaders/casters.
I want to dive into loading the Round Ball. I currently cast and load the LEE 1oz drive key with success but I want to venture into the round ball arena. I guess the biggest advice I need to start with is what size mold should I go with? Do I need to slug my barrel to determine size? I will be shooting it out of a Remington 870 express Rifled barrel. The next bit of advice I would need is on the wad/card combo to use or can I use a standard shot cup wad? Thanks in advance and please ask any important info I may have left out.
Ben

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Good morning NewCastter, you have two choices:
1. Lee .690" RB in wad a cheap choice at $18+ change for the mold but the RB is a bit tight and you will need to choose wads like Fed 12C, Win. WAA 12 F114 or even Fed 12S3 purple ones and check for accuracy.
2. Lyman .678" RB mold that is a good size for RB in wad but costs almost $90 to 95 with handles.
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/690RBmolddifference_zpsa9fba2fb.jpg (http://s232.photobucket.com/user/Dantebeowulf/media/690RBmolddifference_zpsa9fba2fb.jpg.html)

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/678Roundballwadfitjpg.jpg (http://s232.photobucket.com/user/Dantebeowulf/media/678Roundballwadfitjpg.jpg.html)

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/BPILB12with678and690RB.jpg (http://s232.photobucket.com/user/Dantebeowulf/media/BPILB12with678and690RB.jpg.html)

You will need a .125-16 ga and .125-20 ga nitro cards from Circle Fly to give your RB a solid foundation based on the wad you use as some need 16 ga while other 20 ga.

Go ahead read my post here:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?150140-VdoMemorie-Blazing-Sabot!
Get a pot full of hot coffee and dive into my post and if you learn some thing from it let me know!
You to will owe me a cup of that hot coffee.

" A happy man is one who loads his own slugs and burn's powder at the range" - Super Blazing Sabots!

"An inventor fails 999 times, and if he succeeds once, he's in.
He treats his failures simply as practice shots. ~ Charles F. Kettering

Best regards,
Ajay Madan
Super Blazing Sabots
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[longbow]

Where to start...

Okay then rereading "rifled" eliminates a few things ~ and a lot of my advice!

I haven't done a lot of rifled gun shooting so can't offer specifics. I have shot 0.735" RB's in rifled Remington 870 though so will offer that up.

I had good success with one of my better smoothbore loads using 0.735" RB's cast from ACWW. What had worked well in smoothbore also worked well in the rifled gun:

- Fiocchi 12 ga. 2 3/4" hull
- Winchester 209 primer
- 38 grs. Blue Dot
- plastic gas seal cut off a shotcup
- hard card wad column setting ball to good crimp height
- 0.735" ball (casts at 0.736")
- roll crimp

The load is based on Precision Rifles published Piledriver slug load which wasn't real specific on components but used "any straight walled hull", 36 to 44 grs. Blue Dot. 610 gr. slug, pressure at 44 grs. was 12,500 PSI which seems steep to me. I found that 38 grs. produced enough recoil to keep my attention so did not venture past that. I wound up dropping to 36 grs. which wasn't bad to shoot in a light gun. No pressure signs at 38 grs. I just had no desire for more recoil.

The gun was a rifled Remington 870 with 0.727" groove diameter so the balls were considerably oversize. A recovered ball showed good engraving from the rifling. Accuracy ran about 2" at 50 yards off the bench. I think the gun and load would do better but I was punch drunk by that time, and shooting a light gun with heavy trigger and hard rubber recoil pad so wasn't doing my best.

What has worked best for me in smoothbore is round ball in a shotcup with at least 1 nitro card wad in the bottom and a small scoop of COW under the ball. Good loads here give me 3" to 4" at 50 yards using either o.662" or 0.678" ball.

Also producing the same accuracy is the 0.735" ball load above. It also worked well in the rifled gun.

Not sure of round ball/shotcup combos for rifled gun but depending on wads, 0.678" RB should be a good candidate for use in shotcup. 0.662" ball needs a thick petal steel shotcup to get decent fit and I have been told with thick shotcups they work well in rifled guns. I have a few steel shot wads and some Uniwads that Hogtamer sent me and the 0.662" RB is a perfect fit with them in smoothbore.

You might find it easier to go with the 0.735" RB as moulds are available from Lyman. 0.735" is oversize for sure but there is so little bearing area they swage to groove diameter easily. Before I ever shot one from my smoothbore I use a mallet and dowel to see how much effort it took to get the ball through my 0.729" barrel and the answer was very little ~ one light bop and it was moving easily so I didn't worry about it after that.

So after all that rambling:

- You should slug your barrel to find out what you have got then decide on RB in shotcup or full bore RB. If RB in shotcup then you have to sort out fit so that petals grip both rifling and ball but do not shear so that may take some trial and error.
- Commercial mould selection for shotcup as far as I know is:
- 0.662" (needs thick petal shotcups and/or patching)
- 0.678" (fits many standard shotcups well with snug fit in smoothbore so should work for rifled gun)
- 0.690" (too large for most shotcups but some have success with these ~ look for posts by TRG3)
- full bore slug from groove diameter to 0.735" (Lyman makes 0.735" RB moulds and Jeff Tanner will make whatever size you want for not a lot of money). You don't want too much over groove diameter but a couple of thou would be good.

One benefit (in my opinion) of using slugs/balls of 1 oz. to about 1 1/4 oz. is that there is a lot of load data available. Once you get over about 1 1/4 oz. to 1 3/8 oz. there is limited load data readily available. There are a number of heavy slug shooters out there developing loads like Ed Hubel, Greg5278, turbo1889 and a few others so they would be your best source for heavy slug load data.

Also, search VDOmemorie or SuperBlazingSabots, Ajay has posted lots of good info on fit and loads for slugs and balls.

Not sure if you are aware that developing loads for shotguns is not like like developing loads for metallic cartridge guns so I will reinforce the safety issue. All the components matter and can affect pressure SIGNIFICANTLY in shotshell reloading. Just a change of primer or hull can raise pressures several thousand PSI. Use published pressure tested data to be safe. Substituting equal weight slug/ball for shot or equal weight slug/ball for slug is generally considered safe as slugs and balls generally develop less pressure than shot loads due to less bore drag.

Sorry, kinda long but I hope that helps.

Longbow

[longbow]

Hah! Ajay beat me. I type too slow and "talk" too much!

Ajay, does that brush wad/ball work in rifled gun? I mean does the rifling actually spin the ball? it looks like the edges of the cup are below the middle of the ball and the balls are under bore size. I would have figured you would need a full shotcup so the petals grip the ball.

Just curious.

Longbow

[jmort]

Hah! Ajay beat me

It is such a problem to have, a whole lot of great information from great members.

[newcastter]

Awesome advice guys thanks!!! I would definatly be using a Lee mold. And I would be hoping to lean towards the cheaper side however I would be willing to spend a few bucks on some specialty wads if I have to. I already have 16 and 20 gauge nitro cards I currently use under my Lee Drive Keys.
Ajay, what type of wads are those on the last picture you posted? And are there any advantages or disadvanteges of having the ball in contact of the riflings or in a wad where the pedals would be in contact with the rifling?

[longbow]

If you plan on using the Lee 0.690" ball mould then I think you will find limited shotcup selection that will give good fit. BPI does list a shotcup for 0.690" RB and I believe it has thin petals but I have not tried it.

I find 0.690" RB is too large for any shotcups I have tried so far. The brush wad Ajay shows should work fine in the rifled barrel but if the ball does not engage the rifling then you will not get a spin on the ball so will likely just get "smoothbore" accuracy. Teflon or other wrap might take up the slop and engage the rifling. Some folks have posted about success cloth patching round balls into the hulls too (muzzleloader style). I figured the patch wouldn't stay with the ball leaving the hull but again have not tried that one and they say it works so the proof is in trying it out. 0.690" RB would need about 0.020" cloth to patch to groove diameter.

When you ask about advantages/disadvantages of ball or wad contacting rifling:

- ball engraving in rifling will give a positive spin so should give good accuracy but if the ball is not lubed you might get leading
- wad petals engraving should eliminate leading but ball/wad fit is important ~ petals may shear if too tight or ball may not get a spin if too loose

Longbow

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello NewCastter, those Brush wads are only good to look at when it comes to rifled barrel, like my brother Longbow said above are better off with a full shot cup so the petals will grip the ball and the rifling will do its own magic of spinning.

Based on the measurements above you will need the Win. WAA 12F 114 for the .690" RB.

Until you actually try them its very hard to predict as to how your barrel will work with that combo!

Hey brother JmorTimer, your package with 5 molds and various other samples of wads, RB, SPW, BLS-12 with 320 gr bullets etc was shipped Thursday and hopefully you'll get them by Tuesday, just be careful how you open the box. Its jam packed!

" A happy man is one who loads his own slugs and burn's powder at the range" - Super Blazing Sabots!

"An inventor fails 999 times, and if he succeeds once, he's in.
He treats his failures simply as practice shots. ~ Charles F. Kettering

Best regards,
Ajay Madan
Super Blazing Sabots
BlazingSabots@Gmail.com
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We all, who take slug loading seriously are a dedicated family, who have taken it upon ourselves to perfect our tech. We experiment to find better techniques and share our knowledge.
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-Elite Group of Slug Shooter's
We all, who take slug loading seriously are a dedicated family, who have taken it upon ourselves to perfect our tech. We experiment to find better techniques and share our knowledge.

[bikerbeans]

Longbow,


quote from longbow
"The load is based on Precision Rifles published Piledriver slug load which wasn't real specific on components but used "any straight walled hull", 36 to 44 grs. Blue Dot. 610 gr. slug, pressure at 44 grs. was 12,500 PSI which seems steep to me. I found that 38 grs. produced enough recoil to keep my attention so did not venture past that. I wound up dropping to 36 grs. which wasn't bad to shoot in a light gun. No pressure signs at 38 grs. I just had no desire for more recoil."

I am shooting a FB 600 grain boolit over 44 grains of Blue Dot in a 6 pound gun and you are correct about the recoil, it is stiff. I would backoff the powder but when I do my groups open up, my bad luck I suppose. Plug in the numbers in a recoil calculator and it is in the mid 60 lb-fts range, pretty much the equal of my 458 Win Mag.

BB

[newcastter]

Well it seems my only option on the cheaper side with a Lee mold is the .690 so I will be going with that. I will test out with different hull and wad combo's as I already have a ton. I am an avid trap shooter so I have alot of components at my disposal. Thank you guys for helping me out here. This thread wont die yet I will be ordering mold in a week or so and cast some balls and I will be back with more questions I'm sure. I am sure I could help others when I am done too. I am mostly hanging out in the swaging section but this as starting to becoming a favorite of mine......

[longbow]

Let me take a look in my BPI slug loading manual and I will find the wad they recommend. I will post the wad number when I find it. I suspect it is intended for smoothbore but as long as fit is reasonable it should work in a rifled gun as well. They do seem to be a bit tighter in groove diameter than nominal 0.729" for smoothbores.

if you can't get a good fit then maybe cutting petals off and using Teflon wrap would work. I'll mic my Teflon but I am guessing it would take at least two wraps to make up 0.040".

Hmmm, another option is to make, or get made, a sizer. I would go simple and just bore a piece of round bar to about 0.685" then make up a punch and use a hammer to pop 0.690" round balls through it. You could make one to fit a press too. Sizer diameter can be tailored to your choice of wads and your gun's groove diameter. That would make a narrow "belt around the ball so you would just orient the belt when slipping the ball into the wad. If you have to pay for a sizer to be made that might not be cost effective. I have a small lathe so just make what I need.

Now I have to ask ~ why the interest in round ball when you are already shooting the Lee Drive Key Slug? Just curious.

Longbow

[newcastter]

Now I have to ask ~ why the interest in round ball when you are already shooting the Lee Drive Key Slug? Just curious.

I really dont know, I seem to have to have a challenge every so often and this seems to be a good one as I already have most of the components. I will eventually use the Drive Key or the Round Ball for hunting Whitetail when I decide which one I can tweak to get the best performance. I have a very bad addiction with what started as "reloading" that led to casting that introduced me to swaging has me always looking for the next project and/or challenge to work on and when I heard things like Bonecrushing or Devistating Hits with the round ball I couldnt resist I have to try it.
I hope that explains it. My name is Ben and I am a castaholic.

[longbow]

Okay Ben we understand. We have all been there... are still there... whatever...

I just took a look through the BPI manuals I have and find two references to wads:

- LB12 which is the style of brush wad Ajay has a photo of so not the best for rifled gun
- HCD24 which is the Helix Cushion Driver 24 and it is a shotcup so I have to think that it is a decent slide fit in smoothbore and that should mean it is a somewhat tighter fit in a rifled bore so should be worth trying.

That's all I've got... except, "bikerbeans" ~ OUCH!

Longbow