off to the smith...

[okietwolf]

This morning is a trip to a backyard smith that is an underling of the first guy I ever had black powder work done from. Going to have the chamber cast and slugging done today. Hope the measurements show I am headed the right way. Thinking the bore in the Armi is a little snug and may need to go smaller than .451 to start with. What do ya'll reccomend as a jacket lube now that rooster is so hard to find? For the cookie Im using two wads punched from a milk carton and T/C maxi lube.

[Don McDowell]

If your are using a lube cookie you don't need to lube the paper.

[bigted]

if indeed you have a 'snug' chamber and a reasonable bore measurement then you have a nice sounding setup. you say Armi? pictures of the beast is gonna be asked for so ill start the train rite here ...

photo's please.

welcome to the forum. I hope your rifle is all you hope and that you can get it to deliver for you. lots of great advise here and im bettin the old salts ...[TAKE THAT DON]... will steer you in the rite direction. :drinks:

[John Boy]

Did you look here for Rooster Jacket?
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/746916/rooster-jacket-waterproof-bullet-film-lube-and-paper-patch-lube-16-oz

[fouronesix]

Hmmmm

[okietwolf]

back from the smith... great guy.. chamber cast shows .450" lands and .4575" in the grooves leaving for about .004" deep grooves per. but one groove in a thou shallower than the others. Good news is the bore cast at the udder end shows a .006" choke and the shallow groove deepens to match. Biggest suggestions....change from Goex to Swiss and more lube in the cookie. maybe something more stable (harder) than the T/C MaxiLube

[okietwolf]

photos will come in a bit... trying to get the phone and puter back to speaking terms

[okietwolf]

8630586306
ArmiSport 45/120 1874 Sharps Quiglely added the rear and globe front sights

[bigted]

looks like a nice rifle ... hope she shoots for you. thanks for the photo's.

[okietwolf]

sofa it does, and seems to be getting better. now if I can finger out the right recipe to feed'er I think "we" could be very happy togather

[Don McDowell]

Ok first we need some load details, then we can get into the common switch powders myth, and the nonsense about thicker grease cookies...

[country gent]

Don is an old hand at this and was very helpfull to me. I dont do 45-120, my big un is 45-90. You should give SPG lube a try. and theres several you can make yourself. Emmerts improved is good and easy to make.
Emmerts Improved
50% beeswax
40% crisco
5% canola oil
5% anahydrous lanolin
Melt beeswax and crisco in a double boiler and add lanolin and canola oil ix and "cook" for 10 mins or so to insure complete mix. Cup Cake tins with foil liners make good molds.
I have warmed a little bit on my finger/thumb and wiped onto patched bullet. Iuse this lube for both grease cookies and grease groove bullets. I think JoJoba oil replacing the canola might be an improvement also.

[okietwolf]

First off, sorry for not jumping right on this, just got the laptop straightened back out.

ok Mr. Don, load details for my best todate results.... Norma brass, Federal #215 primers, 110gr FFg Goex, 550gr Buffalo Arms PP 451 bullets wrapped twice with standard writing paper, ending at .4595 or 460. two milk carton wads with around 1/16" of T/C maxi lube between them. Paper unlubed and trimmed close to brass length, chambering issues.
Since the smith trip, I have realized I need to go a little smaller. My next rounds will be based around same bullets, wrapped in #25 onion skin. Same 110gr of FFg, and primers. Maybe resizing bullets down to .450 before wrapping, and a hard paste wax to paper for water/dust resistance. Same lube cookies, because it's what I have on hand, and seems to work sofar, maybe a little more. No leading, BUT, no lube star either.
Next big thing is a compression plug build to get squeeze the same in all the rounds.
Mr Brown, my local smith that's into smoke poles, suggested a few things like breech seating and just filling one case over and over. Im not so sure about that one. Realize the positives, but am leary of the human screw up factor the presses help remove. I'm also leaning towards baby steps since I have already made significant advances from 6' groups to 6" lol.

[Don McDowell]

Leave the 215 primers in favor of a regular large rifle primer. Good idea to try and size those bullets down altho going to .444 or .446 will likely yield better results. Hop down to the local art/office supply store, take your calipers with you and find some 8 or 9# tracing paper that is only around .018 or smaller thick. The stop by the health food store and get a bottle of jojoba oil if you're dead set on lubing the patches.

[okietwolf]

not set on lubing patches... just looking to protect rifling as much as possible, rather shallow. Got the mag primers back when couldnt find many others lol. Will look into thinner paper, and new fingers, the #25 is hard enough to work wet...lmao. As for the .444-.446, will try. need to order a sizer die set, maybe start with one of the little Lee sets, cheap enough to experiment with until I decide what works best.
And will try putting a newspaper underpowder wad as well.

[okietwolf]

the canson 25lb tracing paper calipers out at .0015" so that should be ok right?

[Don McDowell]

That canson should work.
Don't worry about "protecting the rifling" you can't shoot enough paper to ever harm the rifling. Main reason to "lube" the patches would be for fouling control purposes, and be sure not to use anything that affects the integrity of the paper. That's where the waxy stuff like spermicetti and jojoba oil come into play with paper patches.

[okietwolf]

86684

Here are some of the 550's patched with the tracing paper.
How bad they look?

[bigted]

I will attempt to describe my patching procedure;

tools required are ... small waterproof container ... a dishwashing sponge ... sharp knife ... plastic or wood loading block ... flat waterproof surface.

without going into the steps for arriving at the rite shape and size of paper I will jump rite into the ROLLING procedure that I do. maybe im doing something a bit wrong and can be corrected ... or on the off chance im doing it rite then I will be happy.

1- take your container and place the sponge in it and put enough water to settle up 1/2 way on the sponge after it absorbs the water.
2- take a patch and with your fingers hold it under water on the sponge for just long enough to soak the paper. [I patch soaking wet]
3- now take the wet patch and put it down on the flat surface in front of you with the pointed portion in the right side pointing directly at you.
4- place your boolit on the wet paper with the nose pointed also to the right in direction and in a place on the paper where you want it and square with the edges.
5- take your very sharp knife and slip it under the pointed section of the patch and lift it and "flip" it over the boolit so that the pointed section is along the nose/ogive point of the boolit.
6- now after "sighting down the right paper edge to ascertain that it is straight with the whole patch I roll the whole thing with a tight rolling action that partially pulls the patch along as it gets rolled on the boolit.
7- now I pick up the patched boolit and I turn it as I press the "tail" overhang of the paper thus ensuring that the bottom is in a twisted looking affair.
8- now I put the boolit/patch in the loading block with the base down and as I put it down on the base in the block I also twist it slightly to the right.
9- repeat till you have the amount of warpped boolits you desire and with this loading block with your patched boolits I install them in the oven with the temp set at 200 degrees... I then start the heat in the oven and when the oven is heated to the 200 degree heat I turn the oven off. then allow to set in this heated oven for around 1/2 to 3/4 hour. they will "bake" onto the boolits and snug down nice n tight.

when "done" I allow to completely cool after turning over the patched boolits so they set on their nose and the base is now UP. when completely cool they will be ready to use/load.

just my system ... don't know if it will help ... maybe I can be corrected if I do something a bit off.

[Don McDowell]

You need to get the patch to the same spot on the ogive, when you have long and short like in the picture it will give you a bunch of verticle . Same with the bases, if you should have the same amount of paper folded over on the bases.

[okietwolf]

wrapped higher and lower in experimental stage in groups of five to see where the rifle likes. Should do more than five of each I guess. I just grabbed a few from the foam box as a looksee. I am thinking I should make a rolling template when I find out what works. as for drying, the wife would prefer not using the oven, so I use an old westinghouse roaster. next project is to find a few 7/8 -14 bolts and a few nuts to build a powder compression die and a swaging die for projectiles.

[Gunlaker]

Pay close attention to Don's responses. He and others like Rick Mulhern, Dean, and Kenny W. really know their stuff. Follow their advice and it just works.

A lot of people make loading paper patched bullets seem a lot more complicated than it should be. I've never lubed a patch, nor have I seem better results by going to thick lube cookies. I use a .125" cookie and it works very well with .444" and .446" bullets patched to bore diameter. You definitely want to make your patches more consistent, and with zero wrinkles. After that figure out a wiping routine that works for you and you'll likely be amazed with the results.

Chris.

[stocker]

I roll my patches on a 12" piece of laminated flooring. I put wide masking tape down the length of the flooring. Take a boolit and lay it on the tape. With a sharp pencil make a mark at the base line, the nose, and the spot on the nose you want the paper to wrap up to. Use a square and extend the pencil marks full length of the tape. Lay your wet patch so it lies along the mark where it wraps onto the nose. Set your boolit on the patch to fit between the base/nose lines. I went to my fly tying kit and got my home made dubbing needle to lift the corner of the patch up onto the nose. Then roll and complete as previously described. I don't oven dry them just let time do its work. But if I needed some in a hurry that's a good idea. I wrap several calibers and simply lay on new tape and mark new lines when I switch boolits. I have lots of flooring scraps and will undoubtedly increase my clutter by making dedicated rolling boards (one day).

[okietwolf]

Liking that idea. Might take a piece of plywood and put a vertical along the leading edge to keep the boolit rollin straight.

[Dan Cash]

back from the smith... great guy.. chamber cast shows .450" lands and .4575" in the grooves leaving for about .004" deep grooves per. but one groove in a thou shallower than the others. Good news is the bore cast at the udder end shows a .006" choke and the shallow groove deepens to match. Biggest suggestions....change from Goex to Swiss and more lube in the cookie. maybe something more stable (harder) than the T/C MaxiLube

With one groove deeper at the muzzle than the breech sounds like you are going to have blow by from the point at which the groove deepens and leading like crazy. Regardless, if one shallow groove followed to the muzzle, the bullet would exit the muzzle out of balance and land off the line of sight/fire. I would go back on the dealer and get a rebarrel.