Lyman 358429 Keith SWC 357 design

[detox]

I just purchased one of these double cavity 170gr moulds and casted a few for my S&W 686 357 magnum. I measured all bands and the front band measures smaller .354, middle band measures .358 and band at base measures .359. I thought all three bands were supposed to measure the same...especially in the longer 686 cylinder. Was this current mould designed to be used in shorter cylinders also. What do you think?....bad mould?
http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/bullet-casting/mould-details.php?entryID=13

I have not shot boolit yet...it may shoot good. I will call Lyman on Monday and ask why front band is so small in diameter.

[bhn22]

Did you buy a new, current production mold? Does it have the squared lube groove as shown in the picture, or is it rounded? Elmer almost got in a fistfight with Lyman when they reduced the diameter of the front driving band, and also shortened it. BTW, this was done to allow the bullets to easily enter the chamber throats of certain revolvers that commonly had tighter throats than S&W, and tighter barrel bores as well. I thought this had all been changed back to the original design a few years back.

[Bret4207]

I think you're going to have to talk to Lyman. That may be their design now.

[Char-Gar]

Lyman has changed this design numerous times since it left the brain of Elmer Keith. This is just one more change.

This bullet was designed for the 38 Special round and is one of the very best for that caliber. When loaded into a 357 Magnum case, it becomes a "maybe so-maybe not" kind of affair. In a Smith and Wesson cylinder and the bullet is crimped in the groove provided, it is too long for the cylinder. In such a case the bullet will be crimped over the top of the body. This decreases the case capacity and powder charges will need to be adjusted accordingly.

Decreasing the diameter of the top driving band won't decrease the length of the bullet which is the issue with Smith and Wesson cylinders.

In a Smith and Wesson 357 Magnum, there are better bullet choices available.

[fecmech]

Lyman has been making the front band .355 for 40 years that I know of. My understanding was that a full size front band gave problems in some revolver throats so they made it smaller. I have a 4 cav Lyman from about 1970 with the dreaded round lube groove and .355 front drive band. It is unaware that it cannot shoot accurately and averages 3-4 moa @100 yds out of my levers at 1650 fps and slightly less than 2"@ 50 yds out of my Ruger GP at 1250 fps. It is IMO a good all around design.

[Larry Gibson]

What alloy?

Larry Gibson

[yancey]

Last year one of my friends at work was given one of these molds in two Cavity and in return gave it to me. I finally did some casting with this mold about two months ago and found it was one great mold for the 38 special. The front band came out 355 , middle band 358 and the base was 359. ( This is an older mold)

[bhn22]

I was apparently a bit too obscure on the reason for the reduced front band. Keiths original design didn't fit most prewar Colt throats, plus the bullet was difficult to chamber if you had very much powder fouling in the throats in any revolver. And yes, the original nose was too long for N frames and magnum brass. Lyman did some strange things to the original design to make it more versatile. None of them really did the design any favors as far as I'm concerned.

[detox]

This mould is new with a manufactured date of 6/13. I poured these using my RCBS Pro Melt bottom pour. Alloy is between Lyman #2 and Hardball. I also have some linotype alloy to fill mould a little better. I took all measurements using a micrometer and wrote down for you to see in picture.

Interesting comments BTW. This is the first i have heard about the front band being smaller on purpose (one size fits all). I am a little disappointed because i thought the larger/wider .358 front band would fit my 686 perfect. I do not like the idea of smaller/narrower .355 front band rattling inside cylinder because of loose fit.

Heck...maybe it will shoot good anyway.

[detox]

This is what i thought measurements were supposed to be before ordering the 358429 mould.

[detox]

I received the one that resembles these drawings best. I am going to cast a few using linotype alloy and see how much bigger the front band gets. According to these drawing front band should be closer to .356 in diameter.

[Clay M]

I have one I just bought recently in the four cavity. I have not had a chance to cast any bullets with it as I have been too absorbed with hunting. Will try it soon and see. I am not too concerned about it being a tapered bullet. I am sure I will be able to get it to shoot with some charge of 2400.I bought it to shoot some metallic silhouettes.

[detox]

Today I casted a few using the ladle and linotype alloy. The front band changed very little... average diameter .3544". Linotype makes the purdiest boolit with nice sharp edges and very easy to cast with. I will try these with 2400 powder.

Boolit weight using #2 alloy: 163.2gr
Boolit weight using Linotype: 155.1gr

[Clay M]

I use my Lino sparingly. I usually use four or five pounds of WW and one pound of Lino. Just enough to make the bullets fill out and cast easy.They are hard enough I don't need to water quench,and are not as brittle as pure Lino.

[bhn22]

.354-.355 is about all I got out the the many different generations of 357 Keith molds I tried. NOEs version is closer to Keiths original design than Lymans is/was. I think the dimensions in your Lyman drawing above are for the cavitys dimensions, not the finished bullets dimensions. The cavity dimensions would be slightly larger than that of the finished bullet. Lino does make it look easy sometimes, doesn't it? I hope they shoot for you as good as they look.

[Love Life]

They'll probably shoot well.

[detox]

I think the dimensions in your Lyman drawing above are for the cavitys dimensions, not the finished bullets dimensions. The cavity dimensions would be slightly larger than that of the finished bullet. Lino does make it look easy sometimes, doesn't it? I hope they shoot for you as good as they look.

Yes those are cutter/cavity deminsions. Bullets will allways cast smaller than cavity deminsions.

I casted the linotype versions using a higher pot temp of 750-800. I think i will get less shinkage and slightly larger bands if i casted cooler 650-700 degrees

[detox]

Today i casted a few of these using a cooler 600-650 melt temperature, but boolit size was still about the same....354-.356" at front band. Boolit weights are the same using 650 vs. 800 melt temp. Linotype is probably the easiest and most forgiving alloy to cast with. BHN is 22 using Saeco BHN tester. These should make good magnum loads. I will also use softer #2 alloy also to compair accuracy.

BTW i got good mould fill @ 600 degree melt temp using the Linotype alloy. Boolits have nice sharp edges and look and weigh exactly the same as boolits cast at 800 dgrees. No frosting at 800 degree melt temperature.

[detox]

All bands on my RCBS 150gr Keith boolit measure the same .359. So when i size...all bands get sized. Allthough front band is a little narrower than Lyman design.

[GP100man]

NOEs are 359+ on all bands ,heres 1 run thru a 358 die , ya can see they`re full dia.
All my Lymans throw 355 front bands except 1 IDEAL SC it throws full bands but has a rounded lube groove, so they must have changed the groove very early ???


http://i746.photobucket.com/albums/xx110/GP100man/102_1250-1.jpg (http://s746.photobucket.com/user/GP100man/media/102_1250-1.jpg.html)

As ya can see the NOEs nose is shorter for the S&Ws N frames.

[bhn22]

I'd still like to get my hands on one of the original Ideal 173 gr molds from the late '20s. I know there's one out there, just waiting for me.

[detox]

NOEs are 359+ on all bands ,heres 1 run thru a 358 die , ya can see they`re full dia.
All my Lymans throw 355 front bands except 1 IDEAL SC it throws full bands but has a rounded lube groove, so they must have changed the groove very early ???
As ya can see the NOEs nose is shorter for the S&Ws N frames.

Does the NOE seem to shoot better than the Lyman ? Thanks

[lotech]

I bought a new Lyman #358429 about twenty-five years ago. It cast undersized bullets (wheelweight) that never shot well in any gun. I had it opened up, top to bottom, to .359" by Erik Ohlen. He did an excellent job and bullets cast in this mould now shoot well at either .358" or .359". However, it remains a second to H&G #51 bullets.

[bhn22]

Which brings up the option of sending the new Lyman mold to Erik and having the front band corrected.

[kevmc]

Just bought 2 2-cav molds 358429's off ebay......
Curious what they will throw........
One marked 358429AW the other 358429CW....
It'd be nice if there was a source to let us know that a 358429AW would throw XXXXXXX.
My understanding is that the AW or CW after the 358429 was the cherry or cherry maker's number.....?????

[detox]

Today i tried first the 358429 boolit (linotype and #2 alloy) in my S&W 686. This boolit was the worst performing boollit i have ever tried in this gun. I tried three different powders 2400, Unique and Tin Star...none of these would group inside 1 foot at fifty yards (yes one foot). Velocity was around 1100fps. Barrel was not leaded eather.

Next i tried the RCBS Cowboy 158gr and it shot verygood...some of these groups were 4" and under.

Believe it or not, the RCBS 147gr 9MM boolit was the best performer of the day with a couple groups under 3"... 5.5 gr Of Tin Star was used with a velocity around 1000...these fall from mould at .358 diameter.

Today I did not shoot the RCBS 150gr Keith boolit, but it has grouped LOTS better than the 358429 in my gun.

I think the 358429 mould's front band needs to be opened up to .3600" to shoot best. Ellmer was correct

[detox]

The Lyman 158gr Cowboy boolit shoots verygood in the 686. This boolit fits cylinder and against cylinder forcing cone verywell when loaded to instructions from Lyman loading manual. I have shot 4" groups at fifty yards with this one.

To get good groups at fifty yards requires a very steady sandbag rest and a good shooter.

I have shot 3" groups at 100 yards with the 686 using jacketed Hornaday boolits.

[detox]

Here is target shot with other boolits listed. I did not include target from 358429 except one flyer from target that was set below this target.

[detox]

Here is gun

[fecmech]

Have you shot any magnum level loads such as the 13.5/2400 or 15/296??

[detox]

Have you shot any magnum level loads such as the 13.5/2400 or 15/296??

No this was my first test using this boolit. Maybe a softer alloy would help using lighter 11gr 2400 load. Maybe higher magnum velocity will help when using harder cast.

[kevmc]

I believe the 358429 responds to higher velocities..........mag loads.

[paul h]

I've never been able to make a bullet that doesn't want to shoot shoot accurately by finding some magic powder combination.

My suggestion is lap out the mold to make the front driving band .359". Why try figure out some magic load incantation when its a 10 minute job to make the mold what it should have been from the factory.

[kevmc]

first mold recv'd was 358429CW front band casts at .355 others at .357.........50/50 PB/#2

[GP100man]

Yes in my GPs the NOE boolit is the Bs knees.

Have`nt had time to bench em ,but braced up theres no problem ringing a 8" gong at 50

Ran a couple over the chrony at 1180 fps.

[kevmc]

"My suggestion is lap out the mold to make the front driving band .359". Why try figure out some magic load incantation when its a 10 minute job to make the mold what it should have been from the factory".

I've tried to lap out the 358429CW mold I've got......more than 10 minutes for me, and it's not there yet.....
Using boolit cast in cavity...drilled/tapped...turned slow with 320 lapping compound....
Any Tricks??

[paul h]

I cast the bullet in the mold, drill the base and tap 10-32 and drive a 10-32 capscrew in. Cut off the head of the screw. Chuck the headless bolt with bullet dangling off the end in a drill press. Put a small dab of 180gr clover compound on the bullet. Close the mold around the bullet and power up the drill press quickly then power it off. Clean excess compound off the mold haves. Close mold around lap again. Put a c clamp around the mold haves. Start up the drill press and then tighten down the c-clamp enough to be sure the mold is fully closed. Count to 30 seconds and turn off press. Open up mold, blast cavity with carb cleaner. Repeat preocess with 320 gr. Do the same to the second cavity.

I've done that to several 050 molds and I can assure you you're mold will drop 0.002" larger than it did before lapping. Just don't go crazy with the c-clamp, it's purpose is just to keep the mold haves closed.

[kevmc]

I cast the bullet in the mold, drill the base and tap 10-32 and drive a 10-32 capscrew in. Cut off the head of the screw. Chuck the headless bolt with bullet dangling off the end in a drill press. Put a small dab of 180gr clover compound on the bullet. Close the mold around the bullet and power up the drill press quickly then power it off. Clean excess compound off the mold haves. Close mold around lap again. Put a c clamp around the mold haves. Start up the drill press and then tighten down the c-clamp enough to be sure the mold is fully closed. Count to 30 seconds and turn off press. Open up mold, blast cavity with carb cleaner. Repeat preocess with 320 gr. Do the same to the second cavity.

I've done that to several 050 molds and I can assure you you're mold will drop 0.002" larger than it did before lapping. Just don't go crazy with the c-clamp, it's purpose is just to keep the mold haves closed.

Thanks for the reply!!!
It's on tomorrow's to-do list!!

[detox]

I just received my mould back from Erik Ohlen. He opened and widened the front scraper band to match diameter of other bands. I hope it shoots better. I will try different alloys, velocities and powders.

[kevmc]

I just received my mould back from Erik Ohlen. He opened and widened the front scraper band to match diameter of other bands. I hope it shoots better. I will try different alloys, velocities and powders.


Looks Great!!
Please let us know how it shoots!!!

[Bigslug]

Lotech and Detox: I would be very curious as to the weight of boolits dropping out of your Ohlen-modified molds. I've got a 4-cavity 2012 production that has the skinny front band and it casts lighter than the advertised 170 grains. I ended up buying the NOE version with the HP pin option (in solid form it DOES cast 173 grainers, dangit!), but I might send out the Lyman for modification in the interest of not having pins to deal with on the SWC's. . .

[detox]

Lotech and Detox: I would be very curious as to the weight of boolits dropping out of your Ohlen-modified molds. I've got a 4-cavity 2012 production that has the skinny front band and it casts lighter than the advertised 170 grains. I ended up buying the NOE version with the HP pin option (in solid form it DOES cast 173 grainers, dangit!), but I might send out the Lyman for modification in the interest of not having pins to deal with on the SWC's. . .

Mine cast at 164gr using Lyman #2 alloy. Ohlen widens the front band slightly by cutting closer toward crimp groove. This moves front band closer to forcing cone in cylinder (less bullet jump / less free bore). I am still waiting to shoot it. I will let you know if accuracy improves...it could not be any worse than before.

BTW these Lyman moulds rust very easily. My newly modified mould started rusting just 1 hour after casting setting on kitchen table indoors. This is about the third time this has happened. Be sure to oil your mould while it is hot before storing.

[lotech]

Bigslug: I probably weighed them at one time, but don't recall the number; don't have any cast at the moment.