new .45-70 question

[irishtoo]

went to the range this morning. took 10 roundball loads and 30 boolit loads. the roundball are .445 w/ 40grs 3f goex, 1/2" fiber wad, .012 linen patch with 50/50 beeswax/ oliveoil lube. the boolit loads are r-p once fired brass, rem large rifle primers 9 1/2. goex 3f, 68.5 grs dipped with lee spoon, lee 405gr fphb soft cast boolit, used as dropped, pan lubed, necks sized to .460. no crimp. th roundball loads at 25yards 8 went into one hole with 2 fliers. (using sandbags) the boolit loads = one hole at 25yds. at 50 yards one inch. at 100yds one inch and 3/4. put 35 rounds thru the gun in one hour. wiped every 5 rounds. very little fowling. no leading. push a patch thru mirror finish barrel. BUT.............the last 5 rounds opened up to a 4 inch group, no stringing. checked the gun, no loose screws (ok maybe one) whats up with that? barrel heat up? i used a consistent hold. the gun is a winchester/miroko 1885 24inch barrel with a leupold 2x7 scope. set a 7power. understand i am a hunter, not a 1000yd shooter, but a 4 inch group from a new gun is just too big. suggestions? questions? gun? load? scope? also aside from the rounds today i put 40 rounds of r-p factory loads thru it two weeks ago. irishtoo

[Don McDowell]

Going to guess your roundball loads filled the bore with lead, and then it just kept piling on until you ran out of ammunition.

[bigted]

just to be sure what your saying here ...

round ball load consists of ...

1- .445 inch round ball wrapped in .012 linen lubed patch ... as in cloth correct?
2- 40 grains of 3f GOEX powder.
3- 1/2 inch fiber wad over powder.
4- Remington cases primed with rem 9 1/2 primers.

your boolit loads were ...

1- same cases and primers.
2- LEE 405 grain hollow base lubed with same as round ball lube.
3- 68.5 grains GOEX 3F dipped with a LEE dipper.

so you say your roundball loads did great and were shot first ... then followed with your LEE boolit loads and they ran good with the exception of the last 5 rounds that opened up into a 4 inch group ...

is this the skinny of your perplexing spread? kinda hard to follow the original post with so much info in so little a written package ... maybe spread the info a bit with different paragraph's concerning the two different load specs and group sizes.

anyway as to your question if the above is the sequence of stuff that happened ...

maybe you did get some leading as Don suggests ...

maybe the fouling in the shallow grooves finally built up to a point that there was no proud rifling to grab the boolit.

maybe your lube is a bit lacking for the end of the barrel or ...

maybe your the fouling or leading happened in the first 4 to 8 inch's of the barrel as a result of gas cutting past the boolit ... didn't read about an overpowder wad to protect the thin LEE skirt in the hollow base of that boolit.

just a couple thoughts on your post. don't mean to be cutzy with my punctuation comments ... however ... thought I would attempt to show how it is a bit easier to follow when separated a bit ... no harm intended.

hope you figure out what went wrong and are able to cure it as these rifles are a great ...[my estimation]... hunting rifle capable of taking anything they get pointed at with the best load. easy to carry in the brush and lite enough to carry all day long with ease ...almost as lite and easy as my Ruger #1.

[irishtoo]

ok, i had to ask my daughter how to make paragraphs. the roundball loads were wrapped in linen, so in theory no leading there. at the range, the barrel was wiped every 5 shots and checked. i saw a mirror finish barrel with sharp rifling. on to the boolit loads.
r-p brass, 68.5 grs 3f goex dipped with a lee spoon compressed , remington primers 9 1/2, lee 405 gr fphb used as dropped, pan lubed, 50/50 beeswax olive oil lube.
they did fine up to the last 5 rounds. i dont think its the load. gun was checked, nothing loose. leupold 2x7 scope set at 7 power. sandbag rest using a toe bag.
at 100 yards the groups were 1 and one half inch, till the last five, they went into a 4 inch group, no stringing. then i ran out of ammo. your right no wad. when i entered this post it didnt stay as i typed it, guess i need a typing lesson also.

[bigted]

Irish ... try this. do a complete cleaning of your rifle to include very tight patch's soaked in shooters choice. do this several times with a scrubbing action back and forth each time. do not dry patch between the shooters choice soaked patch's. take a careful look at each patch and see what ... if anything is coming outta your barrel.

the green color will indicate copper wash
grey color will indicate lead
dark and black color is blackpowder fouling

keep it up till there is NO COLOR on any patch as it comes out of the barrel.

then reload some of these same blackpowder/Lee loads that went into the 1 1/2 inch groups for 5 shots. repeat exactly what you did the first time and see if you can repeat the sudden enlargement of your groups. at the moment you see them get bigger then stop shooting and examine everything carefully. repeat the TIGHT shooters choice patch's and see if per chance you get some color outta your barrel ... the lead will look like little slivers on the patch in my experience.

hope this helps as I know exasperation and the tightly shut doors it seems to present. good luck.

[irishtoo]

ok ill will give that a good try and report back in about a week thank you

[Lead pot]

If you shot all of those copper jacketed factory loads through that rifle you probably have a copper lined sewer pipe for a bore and it will not shoot a decent group using a lead bullet till you get it all scrubbed out. I'm surprised you did not mention key holes.
And good luck using that hollow based Lee bullet.

[Don McDowell]

With that lube you're using, wiping every 5th shot probably filled the bore with lead. It takes an awfully good lube to go 5 shots without blowtubing or wiping.
Another possibility your load fell apart, or you started flinching, or slapping the trigger.
As Ted says with a good solvent soaked white flannel patch if it comes out the other end of the barrel with any color on it except the color it went in with you have a fouling problem of sorts.
A patched soaked in turpentine will show you whether or not there's lead in the barrel someplace.

[EDG]

>>> i dont think its the load.<<<
Try wiping between shots after you get your bore cleaned.
I doubt it is your rifle.

[CanoeRoller]

There are a number of possibilities here. The fact that things were ok until the last few rounds means the basic load is probably ok for hunting, so the question becomes, "What happened at the end?"

Three issues might be:

Your scope went bye-bye.
Your lube gave up the ghost.
You began to loose control of the rifle.

If your next group is bad, you might want to check your scope.

The lube you used is a bit iffy, if the temperature at the range rose during your shooting session, or if the loaded cartridges were left in the sun, your lube might have begun to melt while in the cartridge, leaving your barrel too dry, so fouling may have messed you up. You should try a stiffer lube. A good starting place would be 5 parts beeswax, 4 parts crisco, and 1 part vegetable oil, this will be a stiffer lube that what you have now, and a bit more heat resistant.

35 rounds of 45-70 in an hour is quite a few in a hunting weight rifle. Was your shoulder getting tender toward the end? It takes very little change in shooting stance to start to open up a group. I am not talking about flinching so much as making little adjustments to take the pressure off a spot that is starting to become irritated.