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joeb33050
11-09-2007, 10:32 AM
I'm looking for additions or corrections, and of course, all opinions are welcome.
joe b.


HOW TO SEARCH FOR ACCURACY
This article describes an importance-ordered set of the things we can and must do to get a rifle to shoot accurately with cast bullets.
It is not going to explain how to do any of these things; only when, in what order, to do them. In the background is the element of cost; it's always there but seldom mentioned.
So we start with either a new or used rifle that we want to get going with cast bullets.
The first step is to acquire a notebook in which everything, yes everything about the rifle and what is done with it is written down.
A rifle must have sights that allow the shooter to shoot accurately.
For young persons with good eyesight interested in hunting or generally less precise shooting, open sights or peep rear and blade front sights may be adequate, telescopic sights are much better.
For precise shooting, good quality aperture front and rear sights are threshold sights; and telescopic sights are in virtually every case, better.
With a new rifle, make sure that:
There is no obvious bedding or barrel problem
Sights are mounted solidly and correctly
Screws are tight
With a used rifle, make sure that:
There is no obvious bedding or barrel problem
Sights are mounted solidly and correctly
There is no damage to the muzzle crown
Screws are tight
The barrel is clean, no copper or other fouling is in there
New rifle barrels may be "broken in" by the new owner. Since instructions and opinions abound and conflict, this is the shooter's call.
With either a new or used rifle we need to know the twist, to measure the groove and if possible the bore dimensions at chamber and muzzle ends, and to slug or make a cast of the throat. We also need to find out if there are tight or loose spots in the bore, and may need to fix such spots.
Testing a rifle for accuracy requires a solid bench rest on a sold bench, and a good chair or stool.
The target used must work for the shooter-target types, shapes and styles affect group size.
When the above is done or ready, it is time to select one or more starting loads from published sources such as reloading manuals. Here we select a set of cartridge cases, bullet, alloy, diameter, lubricant, primer, powder, charge and OAL.
Depending on what is or can easily be made available, several combinations of powder, charge and bullet may be prepared and used for testing.
Vary powder charge weight in half grain increments.
Chamfer the mouths of the cartridge cases and always "bell" case mouths.
Visually inspect the cast bullets and recycle those with flaws.
Always clean primer pockets
Always brush or clean inside case necks.

Intermission
I test at 100 yards, five shot groups, five groups to a test, group sizes and average recorded. Two or three foulers and ten shots = two five shot groups are shot in about a 15 minute relay, followed by a target-change period of 10-20 minutes. All in reasonable-not perfect and not blizzard, conditions.
The group measurements mentioned below are average group sizes for bolt action or single shot rifles of about .30 caliber with telescopic or aperture front and rear sights, tested per the paragraph just above.
If you test in a different way, the group sizes mentioned below may not apply to your testing, but the remainder of this article applies.
Now back to our show.

In this phase of accuracy testing the "Tic-Tac-Toe" chart method, or "Ladder Testing" may be of value.
It is my experience that using recommended loads from reliable sources, with reasonable bullets and powders and primers and lubricant, that average group sizes of 2" or less are fairly easily obtained by varying the powder, charge or bullet. If the best average group sizes that result are over 2 1/2", there is probably something wrong with the rifle.

Now to get from 2" to 1 1/2" average groups.
What do we change next?
The things we CAN change are legion. The things we SHOULD change are limited somewhat by costs, but should follow a reasonable scheme that works.

Second Intermission
There are a number of things that can be done that probably won't help get from 2" to 1 1/2" group averages but that may help later in getting to very small groups.
I do the following because I've got the time and tools on hand:
Select ~100 cases with the same headspace, from the same lot if possible
FL size, fire and trim to length
Uniform Primer pockets
De-burr flash holes
Turn case necks
Weigh and segregate cases by weight
Weigh and segregate bullets by weight, keep those +/- .5 grains, recycle the rest or use for flyers
Now back to our show.

Changing the bullet, diameter, powder and charge will get us down to 1 1/2" groups with some more testing. Read anything available about who's doing what with cast bullets, the powders and bullets used.
Keep the barrel from overheating, cooling methods are available.


Getting from 1 1/2" groups to ~1" groups is tough.
Based on the CBA National records over several years, competitors average around 1" over the classes. Means that those who shoot in each of the four classes, all told, average about 1". Averaging 1" with cast bullets is tough.

Here are the things that can be done to reduce group size below 1 1/2":
If you haven't done it yet,
Select ~100 cases with the same headspace, from the same lot if possible
FL size, fire and trim to length
Segregate bullets by weight, classes of .5 grains
Vary bullet diameter in .001" steps
Vary the alloy, harder is almost always better
Vary OAL in .005" steps
Anneal case necks
Try different barrel cleaning methods and frequencies
Check and fix cartridge concentricity


Here are the things that can be done to reduce group size below 1":
Change primers
Get "better" (Lapua, Norma) brass
If you haven't done it yet,
Uniform Primer pockets
De-burr flash holes
Turn case necks
Weigh and segregate cases by weight
Get cartridge case length closer to chamber length
Vary the lube
Vary the number of lube grooves filled
Vary OAL in .002" steps
Control bullet weights to .2 gr.
Control powder weights to .1 gr.
Orient cases and bullets in the preparation and shooting steps



A Warning: It takes a lot of shooting to find and verify a small change in accuracy-in group size. Simple and easy to use statistical tests are available. (Add references)

sundog
11-09-2007, 10:50 AM
Second Intermission - Select cases with same head space.

How do you do that?

joeb33050
11-09-2007, 11:31 AM
Second Intermission - Select cases with same head space.

How do you do that?

Typo, should read "headstamp"
Thanks;
joe b.

sundog
11-09-2007, 12:33 PM
Joe, pretty good list of things to do. And there's prolly some stuff that can be added. Here's a comment that doesn't really have a lot to do with all the mechanics.

Some of the folks that I've seen give up on shooting cast aren't really that good a shooter anyway, and if they are it is a resources issue for them - mostly time. Or, they somehow become convinced that their jacketed match or hunting bullets are far superior to cast boolits. In which case I remind them that the American Bison was killed almost to the point of extinction with..., you guessed it, cast boolits. And black powder. Usually their response is something like, "Well that was different." "How so?" says I. That usually gets a change in topic.

Not everything on your list is a requirement for every accuracy search. For example, my "walk around in the woods" lever gun is only minute of beer can and the mixed head stamp brass has never been flash hole deburred. No problem, deer at fifty yards are sure first round hit point of aim. Accuracy objective accomplished.

I don't agree with your assessment of ladder testing, but that's what makes all this interesting. If you're really into this cast boolit shooting stuff though, you develop some very individual techniques. Are you or I or anyone else right or wrong? Performance counts.

Here's one other thing. Prove your load over time and environment. If it's not repeatable, it's a flash in the pan.

Maven
11-09-2007, 04:07 PM
Joe, I've no problem with the steps/procedures mentioned, but will suggest partial FL sizing (assuming the same rifle) since it allows the case to self-center. Also, for greater concentricity (little runout) at a bargain price, why not use a Lee collet die set? Lee Loaders are almost as good for this as well, but glacially slow. I also have a couple questions about primer pocket uniforming and neck turning. First, although I "uniform" all my primer pockets (even for the SKS), is there much evidence that it makes a difference (accuracy) in rifles with "standard" chambers? Second, is there anything to be gained by turning necks in standard chambers if you're not radically reforming your brass? While I've done it for my '06 and it looks kind of neat, I've never seen an improvement attributable to it.

joeb33050
11-09-2007, 07:17 PM
Joe, I've no problem with the steps/procedures mentioned, but will suggest partial FL sizing (assuming the same rifle) since it allows the case to self-center. Also, for greater concentricity (little runout) at a bargain price, why not use a Lee collet die set? Lee Loaders are almost as good for this as well, but glacially slow. I also have a couple questions about primer pocket uniforming and neck turning. First, although I "uniform" all my primer pockets (even for the SKS), is there much evidence that it makes a difference (accuracy) in rifles with "standard" chambers? Second, is there anything to be gained by turning necks in standard chambers if you're not radically reforming your brass? While I've done it for my '06 and it looks kind of neat, I've never seen an improvement attributable to it.

Paul;
Does partial FL sizing = neck sizing? Where, at which of the 3 tiers, insert it???
Lee collet dies are covered in the book, as are Lee loaders. I don't know that they increase concentricity, do you? I had trouble with a Lee collet die set, but they're covered in the book.
I do not know of ANY evidence that primer pocket uniforming, neck turning, flash hole deburring, and a lot of other possible things increases accuracy, but lots of good shooters do these things, once you own the tools these steps are free and easy, and I don't think they can reduce accuracy.
Particularly under 1" there's a lot of luck involved, and sometimes a lot of money.
I'm interested in placement of changes in the 3 tier hierarchy.
If a lever hunting rifle, maybe no need to go beyond the initial tier.
(I use Lee Loaders for several calibers of rifle, I think I can get them to size less and work easier and work brass less than dies-which I also have.)
More help needed.
Thanks;
joe b.

Maven
11-09-2007, 11:04 PM
Joe, Partial FL resizing uses FL dies, but not screwed down to touch the shell holder. The idea is to leave ~1/16 of the neck unsized so as to allow the loaded round to center itself in the chamber. Neck sizing dies, with the exception of Lee collet dies, bushing dies and Wilson hand dies, apparently don't work the case necks much, but don't support them either, which results in more runout than we'd like, say .003" - .008" v. .001" for a collet die and ~.002" - .003" for a Lee Loader. Partial FL sizing may belong in the 1.5" category for 'scoped rifles. Btw, I do this for most of my rifles (i.e., those that I don't have Lee collet dies for), including lever guns and my SKS, but I can't say that it improves or detracts from accuracy. It seems to extend the life of my brass though.

Pat I.
11-09-2007, 11:45 PM
What I think is important and a fair way to set up a good shooting load in no particular order. Use a Redding Bushing Die with a button no more than .003 under loaded neck diameter, seat the bullet so it's a jam fit in the throat, use a known accurate load such as 11 or 11 1/2 grains of Unique or something other people say shoots well in the cartridge you're shooting, play with both quality and quantity of lube, and probably one of the most important of all forget your bias against using a wind flag or two and stick something out in front of you to see which way the wind's blowing even if it's a piece of surveyor's tape tied around a stick.

Turning necks for a factory chamber would seem counter productive and while I'm a firm believer in indexing the bullet in the throat and keeping the cavities segregated, and do it, a lot of guys would faint at the idea of putting a punch mark in a mould so that part can be skipped.

Char-Gar
11-10-2007, 07:56 AM
Maven.... I have read your post on partial sizing several times and still can't make it work in my head.

We start with the goal of keeping the fired brass as close to full chamber fit as possible to keep the bullet centered in the throat and start it straight down the barrel.

When you partial size you will reduce part of the case body which degrade the fit to the chamber and hope to compensate for that by keep part of the neck unsized.

When you neck size only, the case body is a full custom fit to the chamber and if the neck is not cocked in the sizing and seating of the bullet, everything should be straight.

Bottom line is I can't see how partial FL sizing offers anything over neck sizing in terms of accuracy. Providing of course our dies produce straight ammo and the chamber, throat and bore are all dead straight. If our dies are funky or the chamber or throat cocked with the bore, we are in a world of hurt (accuracy wise) from the git go.

Take care and keep em in theX-Ring

I have partial sized full snort condom loads for decades to give a better case fit to the chamber and still be certain the rounds will chamber in the field. It is very helpful in rifles with springy actions like leverguns.

Maven
11-10-2007, 05:46 PM
Chargar, Regular neck sizing dies DO allow the already fire-formed case to remain fitted to the chamber, but the neck is unsupported as it is resized, leading to more run-out than you'd get with a collet die, a bushing die (RCBS & Redding), or a Wilson hand die. I partially FL length size brass for any of my rifles that I don't have, can't get, or don't want to spend $$ for collet or bushing dies for. If I'm really ambitious, I'll de-cap as a first step, partially FL size without the expander ball/decapping stem in the die, and expand the necks via a Lyman M die. However, I don't think this step alone either upgrades or degrades accuracy. Testing brass resized FL v. partial FL v. collet or bushing sized in the equivalent of a Ransom rest for rifles would be one way to tell since I'm really not that great a shooter. Not to change the subject, but I think segregating CB's by cavity and indexing them, as per Pat I's suggestion, is probably the better way, especially for production rifles.

joeb33050
11-11-2007, 06:17 AM
I'm not following this. I've neck sized in dies by leaving the die above the shell holder a bit, you can see the neck size and adjust the die up and down. The die doesn't touch the rest of the cartridge until the die is way down, touching the shello holder or below to take care of spring.This isn't moving us forward, I think that for a bolt or SS tight gun that we all? neck size and don't fl size, at least I do. It's a matter of lazy.
If this is about something I forgot in the series of steps, let me know. Remember, this ain't about HOW to do things, it's about WHEN.
When do we tell the searcher to lap his locking lugs? Isn't this in the <1" area?
BTW, this is up on the CBA site and they love it as written, NO comments or criticism to date!!!!!!!
????
joe b.

Char-Gar
11-11-2007, 08:45 AM
Joe..Maven is advancing the idea that a case neck sized in a neck sized die has the body unspported and therefore it is possible for the neck to be cocked in the sizing process increasing run out (lack of straightness). If a case is partial sized, the case body and neck are held in aligment and strightness is improved...at least that is the theory.

This theory may or may not be true, it all depends on the quality of the die. If a high quality die is used, the difference is accuracy, if any, won't show up on the targets we shoot, until we reach the highest level of accuacy if there. There is no reason for anyone with a high quality neck sizing die to get rid of it and go to another, unless they just like the theory. Brass life, if that is important is yet another issue.

I agree with Maven that others factors, such as bullet selection and indexing are far more important in what we are doing.

Bass Ackward
11-11-2007, 09:19 AM
This theory may or may not be true, it all depends on the quality of the die. If a high quality die is used, the difference is accuracy, if any, won't show up on the targets we shoot, until we reach the highest level of accuacy if there.


Also depends on the quality of the chamber you fire formed your brass in too. This is an ultra biggie that can be self defeating. If everything is dead nuts, then the neck sizing often will be superior.

I prefer partial sizing also. This allows the bullet to contact the lands, the bottom of the neck to support the case (back of the bullet cause I'm not choking), and back at the bolt face. Essentially, you get a three point contact that establishes alignment if a chamber is not perfectly aligned with a bore or maybe a little outta round or what ever. Then the bullet can get started straight even though pressure is going to contort the case to the chamber again anyway. Often this can offer the best option for resizing.

Maven
11-11-2007, 11:57 AM
"Maven is advancing the idea that a case neck sized in a neck sized die has the body unspported and therefore it is possible for the neck to be cocked in the sizing process increasing run out (lack of straightness). If a case is partial sized, the case body and neck are held in aligment and strightness is improved...at least that is the theory."

All, I'm not advocating any theory regarding neck sizing, but merely stating what I've read (and seen in cut-away photosof neck dies) a number of times and have found by actually measuring case runout in that RCBS gizmo. E.g., I have a Lyman FL die set (ca. 1983) for my 8 x 57mm Mau., but I got tired of lubing & then removing case lube from the cases. Thinking a neck die would at least solve one problem, I ordered a standard Redding neck for the 8 x 57mm. Just for grins, I measured runout of fired cases (I have only 1 8 x 57mm rifle.) v. those FL sized in the Lyman die with the expander ball decapping stem loose in the die (to allow it to center) v. the Redding neck die with & without expander ball v. a Lee Loader (too much time on my hands?). Guess what? The Ly. FL die exhibited ~.001" runout v. ~.005" - .008" in the Redding v. ~.002" in the Lee Loader. Unfortunately in a fit of pique, I tossed the little used Redding die into the trash.

Collet dies, bushing dies (Redding, RCBS, maybe Hornady) and Wilson hand dies are different since they support the case neck and should produce little runout, but I didn't want to or need to spend more $$ when my FL (8mm) die was producing almost the same result via partial FL sizing in a standard chamber. To reitierate, I'm not advancing any theory, just trying to (a) avoid the investment in additional equipment and (b) trying to get my rifles (milsurp & production) to perform better, or if you prefer, as accurately as possible.

One more point, but on a different subject, i.e., "when" to do things. After reading Ric Bowman's article in the current Fouling Shot (#189), and having a bunch of once-fired LC '67 brass to prepare for my .30-06, I tried turning the bases to true them so that they were flat (I hope) against the bolt face. If you have a Wilson or C- H trimmer, which is a clone of the Wilson, this is easy to do, and perhaps overdo if you don't pay attention. This may be something to consider when you're seeking the last bit of accuracy from your rifle and don't have match brass available.

Char-Gar
11-11-2007, 09:34 PM
Maven... I am sorry if my use of the word "theory" was offensive to you. I didn't intend it to be. I am reluctant to label any persons experience as fact, because a little time on this board will reveal lots of folks whose experiences are at variance with the experience of others. All I am willing to state about my experience is that it is my experience. I have had my experience shoved back down my throat too many times to stick my neck out and call it fact. I tend to play it on the safe side and label the opinions and conclusions based on my experience as theory.

Again.... I didn't mean to diminsh your experience and your opinion by the word theory. Sorry..

Maven
11-12-2007, 12:25 PM
Chargar, No offense taken as I hate to generalize from personal experience too.