New to Autos - Have ? about 9mm going into battery

[outdoorfan]

I've never played with bottom feeders before, and I have my friend's Latti 40 9mm and am trying to work up a load for it.

I am using the Miha 125 grain HP. 50/50 alloy at 8-9 bhn, sized at .359 (cause that's what I have and figured I'd try that first).

I'm not getting any leading. Barrel is squeaky clean after trying 3.8, 4, and 4.3 grains of Unique. AOL is 1.13 because that's what a couple other people tried and works in there guns.

*I didn't remove the bell from the the case or crimp it in any way after seating the boolit.

Here's the problem. The gun is not consistently going into battery. Meaning, even when I close the bolt with a live round in the chamber, it doesn't always set the trigger up to fire the pin. So, I might try to manually pull the live round and manually close the bolt on the next round. And sometimes that next round won't fire either.

The other thing that's happening is sometimes the round is hanging up and won't chamber unless I force the bolt closed.

So, I wonder if not removing the bell on the case has anything to do with this, and also if I need to shorten the AOL a bit to perhaps make them feed better and allow the bolt to fully close and go into battery?

Am I on the right track? My friend said it feeds factory stuff fine.

[RED333]

I think you are going to have to remove the "bell" to get the round to chamber.

[outdoorfan]

I think you are going to have to remove the "bell" to get the round to chamber.

That "bell" is barely perceptible when running my finger over it, but I know that sometimes .001-.002 can make a difference,.

[500MAG]

Are you noticing this more with a specific one of those Unique loads or are they all giving you the same problem? When the round fits into the chamber and doesn't require you to force the chamber to close I would think that the bell isn't an issue. I have had similar problems with inadequate loads and no crimp. I apply a very light crimp to the point that you can barely tell it's there by eye.

[outdoorfan]

Are you noticing this more with a specific one of those Unique loads or are they all giving you the same problem? When the round fits into the chamber and doesn't require you to force the chamber to close I would think that the bell isn't an issue. I have had similar problems with inadequate loads and no crimp. I apply a very light crimp to the point that you can barely tell it's there by eye.

Thanks for asking. All three load levels seemed to be quite bad and inconsistent. I had first hoped that as I tested the higher pressure loads, things would change for the better, but they didn't.

Another thing was I noticed quite a wide ES in velocity. Maybe that has to do with the crimp?

Accuracy was decent at 25 yards with the 4 & 4.3 grain loads.

[robertbank]

Your cartridges are simply to long. Reduce your OAL to 1.10 and do just remove the belling. If you can hardly feel your bell then you aren't belling it enough and will from time to time shave a lead bullet. This can affect accuracy but more often result in a wrinkle on the case mouth that will prevent the load from chambering. All you have to do is set your crimping die so it just removes the bell leaving you with a flat case. Friction is more than enough to hold the boolit in place.

You can over think this problem...but don't.

Take Care

Bob

[outdoorfan]

Your cartridges are simply to long. Reduce your OAL to 1.10 and do just remove the belling. If you can hardly feel your bell then you aren't belling it enough and will from time to time shave a lead bullet. This can affect accuracy but more often result in a wrinkle on the case mouth that will prevent the load from clambering. All you have to do is set your crimping die so it just removes the bell leaving you with a flat case.

Take Care

Bob

Sounds good. I will try just that. Thanks for the advice!

[MtGun44]

Seat boolit deeper and/or taper crimp tighter.

Bill

[BNE]

Concur with Robertbank. Just taper crimp, or at least make the wall straight.

[outdoorfan]

Alright. Thanks guys. Hopefully that fixes it.

[LeMat]

*I didn't remove the bell from the the case or crimp it in any way after seating the boolit.


Why not? I only ask because I'm curious to know why one wouldn't do this.

[PS Paul]

I would think that not crimping the case, especially in 9mm, could potentially drive the boolit deep into the case (with the cartridges in the magazine) under recoil and cause potentially high pressure spikes?

Of all the calibers I load, I am most cautious about this effect due to the inherent high-pressure of the
9mm round. This alone seems the most important reason for crimping, let alone consistent feeding/cycling.

I hope this helps and doesn't make things more complicated.....

[Bzcraig]

I would start with published load data and not use what someone else said works in their guns. Paul's absolutely right about possible pressure issues from not crimping. Your OAL shouldn't be a problem. Have to tried dropping one of the loaded rounds into the barrel aka the 'plunk test?'

[skykingjohn]

i has trouble like that with my kahr c9 and made a tool to see how long i could have a shell COL .sorry i tried to type what it is and how it works but am to tired to get it right will wright it tomorrow and post it here it works and is free

[outdoorfan]

I would start with published load data and not use what someone else said works in their guns. Paul's absolutely right about possible pressure issues from not crimping. Your OAL shouldn't be a problem. Have to tried dropping one of the loaded rounds into the barrel aka the 'plunk test?'

I did try the plunk test. The best that I could tell the cartridge dropped all the way in and came back out easily. However, when I chambered a dummy round by working the bolt, that created enough pressure on the nose of the boolit to engrave the front band of that boolit into the lands. Due to the soft alloy I'm using it was no problem to pull the bolt/boolit back out, but nevertheless that's the reason I was wondering if I shouldn't make the AOL a little shorter.

[outdoorfan]

*I didn't remove the bell from the the case or crimp it in any way after seating the boolit.


Why not? I only ask because I'm curious to know why one wouldn't do this.

Just lazy. I knew it wasn't correct. I have the Lee die set, and I didn't want to use the FCD, as it sizes the soft boolit down even more than it already is by the case tension. And I don't like the idea of seating and crimping at the same time with the seating die.

I have now removed the carbide from the crimping die, so I will use that to crimp (remove bell) in the next test.

[scattershot]

Well, none of the things you mentioned by themselves might cause problems, but when taken together they add up to one big headache. The .359 boolits themselves may cause problems, but probably won't (proper boolit would be .356). The OAL is a biggie, as is the failure to remove the bell from the case mouth. Go back and reseat the boolits, taper the case mouth properly, and you shouldn't have any more problems. Little things mean a lot, in this case.

[robertbank]

I would think that not crimping the case, especially in 9mm, could potentially drive the boolit deep into the case (with the cartridges in the magazine) under recoil and cause potentially high pressure spikes?

Of all the calibers I load, I am most cautious about this effect due to the inherent high-pressure of the
9mm round. This alone seems the most important reason for crimping, let alone consistent feeding/cycling.

I hope this helps and doesn't make things more complicated.....

When using cast boolits, bullet set back is a non issue with the 9MM. Case friction will hold the boolit in place. Typically lead boolits are sized .356- .357 for the 9MM. I load about 12K rds a year using lead 9MM boolits and have never experienced boolit set back over the last 20 odd years in the 9MM using cast boolits.

Take Care

Bob

[9.3X62AL]

Agree with Scattershot here. These particular boolits have shown that they need deeper seating via their hard contact and engravement into the rifling origin. That might be OK with bolt rifle applications, but it will mess up autopistol feeding comprehensively--as you have noticed. I share your view that seating and crimping cast boolits in the same die step is inadvisable. You really should use a more pronounced belling to seat boolits with less damage, then use some form of crimping to at least straighten out that flare.

[Bulldogger]

I'll throw this out, and maybe it's not applicable and I'll get yelled at; your explanation sounds exactly like what was happening with my brothers AMT M1911. If the cartridge didn't get pushed up enough by the mag spring, and let the slide push it out of the mag into the chamber without the ejector grabbing it, i.e. the case rim rim was ahead of, not behind and grabbed by, the ejector, the pistol wouldn't go into battery and no amount of pushing could get it into battery.
In his 1911 this is because the ejector is a solid piece of steel, it doesn't snap back and forth over the case rim, it relies on the mag spring to slide the case rim up into the ejector notch during feed.
My brother's 1911 had a weak mag spring, which was not pushing the last round or 2nd to last round upwards quick enough to get it into the ejector slot before the round stripped and entered the chamber.
This 1911 also forbids the "drop test" for chambering for the same reason, the ejector can't slip over the case rim because it's solidly mounted, not spring loaded.

If your pistol has the same style of solid ejector, it might be experiencing the same problems.

Otherwise, I side with the other's comments about belling. You might compare headstamps on those that will/will not feed, one brand might have a slightly larger case dimension at the bullet interior seating point, and the bell is a little bit larger by 0.00something and it's just enough to hang up. The same can be said for seating depth, 0.00gnat hairs more can be too much if the out of battery fire prevention alignment is kicking in.

Bulldogger

[outdoorfan]

I shot it again today, and except for one small hiccup, it ran 100%.

1.11 AOL was still too long. It performed better, but once I dropped in down to 1.080 (to make sure the forward drive band was completely inside the case) it ran great.

Only real problem now is that this gun has fixed sights, and the 4 grain load (which was quite accurate) is hitting way low and somewhat to the right at 15-18 yards freehand.

Even the hotter charges were still hitting too low. I suppose a heavier boolit might work, but I don't think I want to go to the trouble.

[9.3X62AL]

In this case, I would be likely to adjust the sights to center for windage (if possible) and not worry too much about elevation. The sorts of targets that autopistols are intended for--two-legged varmints and goblins--are usually taller than they are wide, so there is more margin for error with elevation than with windage. Just sayin'.

[outdoorfan]

In this case, I would be likely to adjust the sights to center for windage (if possible) and not worry too much about elevation. The sorts of targets that autopistols are intended for--two-legged varmints and goblins--are usually taller than they are wide, so there is more margin for error with elevation than with windage. Just sayin'.

I'm pretty sure the front sight is on a dovetail that can be drifted. Good idea. And yes, he'll have to be okay with it hitting 6 inches low at 15 yards.

[Rainier]

Hi outdoorfan - just read through this thread and there's been some great advice given. A couple of points that might be worth mentioning. First the 9mm "headspaces" on the mouth of the cartridge so be sure to check the case length with the "plunk" test in your gun. Second, because a 9mm "headspaces" on the mouth of the cartridge it's been my experience to not "crimp" the case but just close the bell.
As far as adjusting sights, depending on the trigger, it may be the sights are closer then you think and it could be a trigger control issue. I know when I first started shooting Glocks the mush bang trigger had me hitting the target low and right most of the time. It took me a fair number of rounds to get used to a Glock trigger then things seemed to settle in.
It sounds like you've worked out most any problems you might have had but thought I'd throw my two cents worth in.

[RED333]

Glad you got the feed issue worked out.
As far as Point Of Impact, well practice, adjust what you can and practice some more.

[outdoorfan]

Hi outdoorfan - just read through this thread and there's been some great advice given. A couple of points that might be worth mentioning. First the 9mm "headspaces" on the mouth of the cartridge so be sure to check the case length with the "plunk" test in your gun. Second, because a 9mm "headspaces" on the mouth of the cartridge it's been my experience to not "crimp" the case but just close the bell.
As far as adjusting sights, depending on the trigger, it may be the sights are closer then you think and it could be a trigger control issue. I know when I first started shooting Glocks the mush bang trigger had me hitting the target low and right most of the time. It took me a fair number of rounds to get used to a Glock trigger then things seemed to settle in.
It sounds like you've worked out most any problems you might have had but thought I'd throw my two cents worth in.

That's great advice. Thanks! I am only removing the bell and not actually crimping.

As to trigger control, that is also good advice. Some of that movement could very well be me, as I know I couldn't hold it perfectly on target with that fairly heavy trigger.

[Rainier]

Trigger control with a heavy pistol trigger can be a challenge to "master". I don't know how familiar you are with shooting autos so if I'm chewing cabbage you've heard before forgive me. It's been my experience helping a few very experienced rifle shooters get familiar with auto pistols that the tendency is to want to get a perfect sight picture and then get on the trigger. Sadly, with such a short sight radius you have to teach yourself to slowly apply trigger pressure until it breaks and startles you. The front sight will seem to be moving all over gods creation but when the thing goes bang magically you hit where your aiming. I'm no "expert" by any stretch but have often observed newer auto shooters looking for the perfect sight picture, jamming the trigger and hitting low right - PM me if you wanna know how I know that to be true :)
Good luck and have a bunch of fun!

[robertbank]

I'm pretty sure the front sight is on a dovetail that can be drifted. Good idea. And yes, he'll have to be okay with it hitting 6 inches low at 15 yards.


Frankly I would not do anything until I was sure it is the sights that are the problem. The load you are using should be bang on with your gun. If bullets are hitting low then I would suggest it is you not the gun. Get someone who you know to be a very good shot and let him/her try the gun off a bench set up before you do anything.

Glad to hear the gun is running OK now.

Take Care

Bob

[MtGun44]

Bulldogger -

I presume you actually mean "extractor" not "ejector".

Bill

[outdoorfan]

Thanks, guys. I have shot this gun off the bench and off-hand. Both times it hits low, but much worse off the bench, which is normal when the barrel is resting on the support.

I shoot double action revolver so I have okay trigger control. The group I shot at the 4-grain charge level was under 2 inches, which tells me that I likely am not screwing up the trigger control too bad.

Thanks for all your input.