Opinion of newer Winchester levers

[osteodoc08]

Went by my LGS and they had a new Winchester 1892 in 45LC. It was a saddle ring carbine style. I enjoyed the handling of it. I don't mind the tang safety. The rebounding hammer was different and reminded me of my Sigs.

What's the concensus of these newer Winnies?

Looking to pick one up next spring as a range and fun gun with the possibility of using it for hunting if the urge strikes to use it.

[pietro]

.

The quality, fit & finish of the Miroku-made (Japanese) "Winchesters" are the very best ever offered on those rifles, excepting the rifles put out by the old Winchester Custom Shop in New Haven.

You'd have a pretty good chance of getting struck............ ;)



.

[osteodoc08]

I'm familiar with the Mirokus. Have 3 between my father and I. While I agree they are better, I can't find any locally and prefer to look a gun over prior to dropping money on them.

[JayinAZ]

I just got an 1886 and the fit and finish are great. I need to put a peep sight on it though, my old eyes just can't do those buckhorns anymore. I think it will be pretty accurate once I've done so, my first round of test loads looked promising even without being able to obtain a good sight picture.

[osteodoc08]

I've found the Miroku 1886 much easier to find than the 92s. I'll just keep looking for a Miroku for now and let this one collect dust and it no one buys it over the next few months, I'll be able to make a better deal.

[pdawg_shooter]

Went by my LGS and they had a new Winchester 1892 in 45LC. It was a saddle ring carbine style. I enjoyed the handling of it. I don't mind the tang safety. The rebounding hammer was different and reminded me of my Sigs.

What's the concensus of these newer Winnies?

Looking to pick one up next spring as a range and fun gun with the possibility of using it for hunting if the urge strikes to use it.

Winnie ???? Isn't that the sound a horse makes?

[williamwaco]

I don't know about the "Winchester Custom Shop" but I have owned original Winchester model 92 in .25-20, .32-20, 44-40, and a .357 Magnum conversion.

I now own a "Made in Japan" Model 92 in .357 Magnum.

The "Made in Japan" model is significantly higher quality in every respect than the originals.

[Dan Cash]

If this thing has the rebounding hammer, you will be sorry.

[osteodoc08]

If this thing has the rebounding hammer, you will be sorry.

Can you elaborate why? Just curious and eager to learn.

[robertbank]

I don't know about the "Winchester Custom Shop" but I have owned original Winchester model 92 in .25-20, .32-20, 44-40, and a .357 Magnum conversion.

I now own a "Made in Japan" Model 92 in .357 Magnum.

The "Made in Japan" model is significantly higher quality in every respect than the originals.

This in spades! For one thing they are made using modern CNC equipment by folks with talent on how to use the equipment and care about what they produce.

Take Care

Bob

[Canuck Bob]

I bought a 32-20 long barrel Winoku 92 Take Down model. The gun is a gem. I like tang safeties and the rebound hammer has performed flawlessly but some do report light primer hits. The fix is simple, here is a link from the forum. The system illustrated matches my 92. I decided to wait until my warranty ran out and have yet to do it as it turned out to be a non-issue for my rifle. Mine was not drilled for receiver sights.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?12077-Winchester-Miroku-1886-Rebounding-Hammer-Fix-Tutorial

I am very pleased with my rifle and I had to pay extra to get it imported at the time. My 1950s 94 is a well loved rifle but it does not compare in fit and finish but it is a wonderful rifle. One thing, my 24" barrel 32-20 is quite barrel heavy with the long octagon barrel and small hole. The little 92 action levers smooth and 32-20 is a joy to shoot, very cast friendly. In fact my factory ammo is a lead bullet!

[KCSO]

About one of every 3 Winchester rifles with the rebounding hammer has problems with light primer strikes and verticle stringing. I don't know how many of these I have had to either modify or tune to get reliable ignition. The 1886's seem to be the worst. Personaly i would rather have a rifle with a little less fit and finish that went bang every time.

[FergusonTO35]

My 2002 Winchester 94 had the rebounding hammer and it positively smashed primers. Had an awesome 3 pound trigger pull too. Unfortunately it looked like it had been assembled and finished by a caveman. My Dad's Browning BLR is made by Miroku and is top notch in every respect, I don't think FN Herstal could've done better.

[wcavasos]

This is interesting. Some people really like them and others seem to think that 33% of them will be junk. I can't wait to find out which category mine fits into. I think I'll have a chance to find out tomorrow.

[NSB]

I've bought five 45-70s over the last three years. One is a Win/Miruko High Wall and another is a Win/Miruko 1886. Of all the guns I've ever owned, and that's a lot of guns, these two have been my absolute favorites. A little pricey but worth every penny in my opinion. If, and I say "if", you have a problem with light primer strikes due to the rebounding hammer, it's an easy fix. Most of the griping about the rebounding hammer is really a complaint about having a tang safety and nothing else. The same BS you hear about the Marlin cross bolt safety. Get the Winchester and enjoy shooting it. My High Wall shoots MOA consistantly and the 1886 will do five shots in 1.3-1.5" at a measured 114 yards on a regular basis. Not too shabby for a lever gun.

[Kull]

The "Made in Japan" model is significantly higher quality in every respect than the originals.

I'll agree with this. I have a Miroku made 1886 in 45-70 and it's obvious to anyone that it's a very well made unit. Function wise I have no problem with the rebounding hammer other than it makes the action cycling sound a bit different from the original. I like a tang safety, my first rifle was a Ruger M77 so it's familiar.

[robertbank]

. Most of the griping about the rebounding hammer is really a complaint about having a tang safety and nothing else. The same BS you hear about the Marlin cross bolt safety. .

Truer words were never spoken. I have the Marlin 336 with the crossbolt safety. It is convenient and affects nothing. Just a safety feature there to use or not.

Take Care

Bob

[MtGun44]

My 1886 Extra Lite is a BEAUTIFULLY MADE pain in the butt. The redesign for the
rebounding hammer and locked firing pin made it extremely unreliable and inaccurate
due to very inconsistent primer strikes. The 'warranty station' warned me that I would
not see the gun for 3 months and they wouldn't change anything. I modified the
rebounding hammer (hammer is dramatically lightened to use the thumb safety) and
reworked the locking firing pin and have it semi-reliable. Beautiful but marginally
useful, I plan on building a new solid firing pin one day to try to salvage it. I may even
add some weight to the *** hammer to try to get it back up to proper John Browning
weight. IMO, a great Browning design nearly ruined by idiot modern 'lawyer engineers'
and extremely well made by Japanese manufacturers.

Anybody that says the tang safety is a fake problem is uninformed a best. I think this the
perfect location for a safety, and if it didn't RUIN the reliability, it would be a wonderful
thing. Sadly, it is an idiotic design and takes a VERY LARGE amount of energy out of the
hammer blow by both massively lightening the hammer and substantially shortening the
hammer spring effective stroke. Add in a locking firing pin that also absorbs a bunch of the reduced
hammer blow and you get inconsistent ignition and 18" tall by 2" wide "groups" at 100 yds with loads
the produce 1-2" round groups with my Marlin. The rebounding hammer and locking firing
pin are absolutely junk. Firing pin indentations are very shallow where my Marlin has wide
and deep firing pin hits.

As to the Marlin crossbolt safety, the comment was made - "It is convenient and affects nothing" -
Sorry sir, this is baloney. It affects the ability of the gun to fire when the trigger is intentionally
pulled when hunting.

I lost a shot at a really nice impala when the stupid crossbolt safety in my Marlin Guide Gun
was accidentally engaged. I don't particularly like the looks, but the issue is that it can be
accidentally engaged and will not stop the hammer from falling, and making a VERY loud
click that will scare away the game. Looks, again, has nothing to do with the fact that it is
a problematic design in a hunting rifle. If it blocked the trigger or somehow prevented the hammer
from falling, it would be OK with me. I am not opposed to safety devices that WORK and do
not make the gun less useful. As it is, it is a PITA shot-wrecking noisemaker.

And NO, original Winchester 1886 parts will NOT fit.

Bill

[Kull]

Holy cow Bill. Mine is an extra light and I have never had any reliability issues. Also had one of my best groups ever, as in extremely surprised when I seen the target, with that rifle.

Edit: After some searching I feel lucky. Fair amount of threads here and everywhere involving misfires.

Found a post from 2010 where a guy called Turnbull up and they did removal of the tang safety, welding and modification of the hammer for half-cock.

[robertbank]

My 1886 Extra Lite is a BEAUTIFULLY MADE pain in the butt. The redesign for the
rebounding hammer and locked firing pin made it extremely unreliable and inaccurate
due to very inconsistent primer strikes. The 'warranty station' warned me that I would
not see the gun for 3 months and they wouldn't change anything. I modified the
rebounding hammer (hammer is dramatically lightened to use the thumb safety) and
reworked the locking firing pin and have it semi-reliable. Beautiful but marginally
useful, I plan on building a new solid firing pin one day to try to salvage it. I may even
add some weight to the *** hammer to try to get it back up to proper John Browning
weight. IMO, a great Browning design nearly ruined by idiot modern 'lawyer engineers'
and extremely well made by Japanese manufacturers.

Anybody that says the tang safety is a fake problem is uninformed a best. I think this the
perfect location for a safety, and if it didn't RUIN the reliability, it would be a wonderful
thing. Sadly, it is an idiotic design and takes a VERY LARGE amount of energy out of the
hammer blow by both massively lightening the hammer and substantially shortening the
hammer spring effective stroke. Add in a locking firing pin that also absorbs a bunch of the reduced
hammer blow and you get inconsistent ignition and 18" tall by 2" wide "groups" at 100 yds with loads
the produce 1-2" round groups with my Marlin. The rebounding hammer and locking firing
pin are absolutely junk. Firing pin indentations are very shallow where my Marlin has wide
and deep firing pin hits.

As to the Marlin cross bolt safety, the comment was made - "It is convenient and affects nothing" -
Sorry sir, this is baloney. It affects the ability of the gun to fire when the trigger is intentionally
pulled when hunting.

I lost a shot at a really nice impala when the stupid crossbolt safety in my Marlin Guide Gun
was accidentally engaged. I don't particularly like the looks, but the issue is that it can be
accidentally engaged and will not stop the hammer from falling, and making a VERY loud
click that will scare away the game. Looks, again, has nothing to do with the fact that it is
a problematic design in a hunting rifle. If it blocked the trigger or somehow prevented the hammer
from falling, it would be OK with me. I am not opposed to safety devices that WORK and do
not make the gun less useful. As it is, it is a PITA shot-wrecking noisemaker.

And NO, original Winchester 1886 parts will NOT fit.

Bill

Bill having an IQ over 80 I have no trouble not engaging the safety when I want to shoot. Kinda like with most guns that come with a safety. For those visually or mentally disadvantaged I concede taking the gun off safety or putting the safety on when one shouldn't have it on could present some difficulties.

Would it not be just as easy to sell the gun and buy one that meets your requirements. If you dislike cross bolt safeties why buy a gun with one. Seems to me there are a lot of choices out there. There are a lot of ways to raise your blood pressure and aggravate yourself. Why make owning a gun one of them?

I have to add safeties when applied prevent the gun from firing, seems to me that is why they are there. Nothing new there, did you expect them to perform a different task? Applies when you are hunting or just plinking at the range.

Take Care

Bob

[flint_knapper]

Just make it like it was MEANT to be made, pull it and put a delete in it, or one with a ring on it.
Some will boohoo it, I like them and I won’t make smartassed remarks about how superior I am if you don't.

http://beartoothmercantile-2.myshopify.com/

[Gunlaker]

I have owned two and still have one. Neither had issues with misfires. The '94 in .30-30 did string shots vertically a bit, but to be honest I didn't spend much time on load development. I still have the 1886 Short Rifle and it's a nice rifle.

Chris.

[MtGun44]

I don't appreciate the rude "IQ over 80" remark, sir. Making personal attacks
is the sign of inability to take part in a polite and reasoned discussion.

So - to simplify. I have a Marlin because it is a nice rifle, unfortunately it is not available
without the stupid crossbolt. Essentially all other safeties prevent the trigger from moving or
if it does move, it is obviously disconnected and most importantly THEY MAKE NO LOUD
NOISES if the safety is accidentally engaged and the trigger is pulled.

Losing a game animal on a limited time hunt in a foreign country is pretty frustrating. I have
deactivated the crossbolt and use the half cock which is perfectly safe and makes zero noise if
forgotten. The reason I did not expect the crossbolt to be engaged is that I NEVER engage
it intentionally and have no idea how it was accidentally engaged.

The tang safety on the Win is not a problem at all, very ergonomic. Unfortunately it made my
rifle nearly useless, which I do object to. The problem there is that this rifle is quite difficult
to modify back to the original reliable Browning design.

Bill

[robertbank]

Bill just an observation. It is hardly the guns fault if you leave the safety on particularly when it is so easy to put off.

You put the safety on and you have to take it off if you want the gun to fire. I highlighted your comment you made. If yyou read it again I think you wil lsee the irony and humour in the sentence. Imagine an òn safety preventing the gun from firing, that is actually the way it is supposed to work.

Take Care

Bob

[cbrick]

I don't appreciate the rude "IQ over 80" remark, sir. Making personal attacks is the sign of inability to take part in a polite and reasoned discussion. Bill

Kinda what I thought and from a mod no less.

What hasn't been brought up in this thread and should have been the very first thing mentioned. Winchester fired every employee at a factory well over 100 years old. Many of them and their families had never worked any place else, many are still looking for work. I guess they should feel all warm & fuzzy knowing that a Japanese now has a job. Winchester had a union contract that said if they shut down the plant they would not release new rifles from overseas for two years.

The argument that the quality is higher now because of better machine tools and better craftsman doesn't hold water, plain BS. The American employees made exactly what the company wanted them to make and did so with the machine tools the company gave them to use.

They put the American workers out on the street and shipped the jobs to Japan and then increased the price by what 300%, 400%. If the company thought the rifles would sell at the new inflated price why didn't they invest in new modern machine tools right here and produce a better product right here and keep a proud American tradition a proud American tradition? Better I guess to start a new proud Japanese tradition.

When the new Jap rifles where first coming out I examined them & their new price tag at the SHOT Show. I don't care what type of safety or hammer they have I wouldn't have one of them if somebody stuffed it up my hieny. Let the Japs buy them!

Rick

[Kull]

When the new Jap rifles where first coming out I examined them & their new price tag at the SHOT Show. I don't care what type of safety or hammer they have I wouldn't have one of them if somebody stuffed it up my hieny. Let the Japs buy them!

Rick

Thanks for your two cents on a rifle you only seen once at a show.

[cbrick]

Thanks for your two cents on a rifle you only seen once at a show.

I think you missed the point about 200%.

It's not if I saw it once at the SHOT Show or if I had never seen it. Maybe if you re-read the post you might pick up something from it. Well, maybe not huh?

Rick

[NSB]

I think you missed the point about 200%.

It's not if I saw it once at the SHOT Show or if I had never seen it. Maybe if you re-read the post you might pick up something from it. Well, maybe not huh?

Rick

Rick
I read it twice. Sounded like a rant to me. I got nothing out of it. If you don't like the new Winchesters, don't buy one.

[cbrick]

Of course you got nothing out of it NSB, how possibly could you? It wasn't after all YOUR job that went to Japan was it? And we all know that is all that matters right, it wasn't you & to h*ll with the other guy, that guy means nothing. Families loosing their homes means NOTHING cause it wasn't you.

Anyone that feels this is a rant against the rifles quality needs a reality check.

Rick

[robertbank]

The tragedy of folks losing their jobs, being dislocated is not lost on anyone here. Been there personally, done that. It isn`t unique to the firearms industry. Nor is it the fault of the Japanese workers or company who benefit from modern infrastructure in place located in Japan.

Having been involved in Commercial Banking most my adult life I would suspect the management at Winchester in the US did not have or have access to the capital to invest in new machinery nor a business model that would produce a profit if indeed the capital was found. While the firearm industry has had a good run lately, it hasn`t been driven by hunting rifles or shotguns both of which seem to last lifetimes when looked after. It has been Black Rifles and polymer pistols as you likely know better than I.

Remington took over Marlin and closed the old Marlin plant. Why, because they can maximize the use of their in place equipment that produces hunting rifles in a shrinking marketplace.

The alternative to the consolidations is to see all production cease and move to areas where new underutilized equipment awaits.

None of this takes away from the hurt felt by those who find themselves without work in their former jobs but it is a reality that has been around for a very long time. Get the best education you can and be prepared to have to re-invest in education more frequently then ever before and try to get along for the brief period of time you are above ground.

Not wanting to buy a Japanese rifle made 70 years ago is not the answer nor is refusing to buy a new Winchester made in Japan. The worker over their just might be buying a computer product made with American engineering or parts.

Take Care

Bob

[Ramjet-SS]

Use the crossbolt safety as designed cock the hammer and run only with the safety and that issue disappears. Heck your bolt guns are cocked and you run the safety why is the lever gun any different? because you choose to run it differently. Not trying to be jerk here but run the gun that way and you will not have the issue you described. (This is in response to the post a few above.)

But in all honesty I prefer to buy an American made Henry rifle over the Brownings or Remlins owned by some huge investment from and made primarily overseas. But thats me to each his or her own.

[cbrick]

Nobody HAS to buy a new lever gun, it's a choice not a necessity and there are other choices that can be made. A new lever gun isn't the mortgage payment or clothes for the kids, it's a desire. Anyone that chooses to buy one from an American company that chooses to ship all jobs overseas leaving an entire town nearly in bankruptcy is thumbing their noses at families loosing their homes.

I don't care if it's the finest, most precisely made firearm ever. That has nothing to do with it, I made my choice and as I said, I wouldn't have one if somebody stuffed it up my hieny. If Americans would stand up for American jobs there would be far fewer employed Japanese, Chinese, Indians etc. and far more employed Americans.

The only other choice is to decide "I want" so screw that family that lost their house, it's not my house or my family. Screw that town that lost it's primary employer, I don't live there and "I want".

How do people like that sleep at night? Oh yeah, it's only about them.

Rick

[Dryball]

wow...so much for a friendly discussion. I love my '86. I love it so much that I sent it to Turnbull for removal of the safety and new hammer (non-rebounding) with a true half- cock. Not a bad price, either, for all the work to be done.

[NSB]

Winchester is just a name that's been traded and sold. Winchester didn't move to Japan. The parent company sold the brand and someone else had guns made in Japan under the Winchester name. This story isn't as simple as some make it out to be.

Dryball, I got mine done about two months ago. Turnbull does outstanding work. It's one of the nicest guns I own at this time. My second favorite is my Win/Miruko 1885 High Wall Anniversary model. I didn't buy it for the gold lettering, I bought it to shoot and hunt with. Just happened to have the barrel length and recoil pad I wanted on the gun. Winchester makes too many special editions to count on any collector value so I just shoot it.

FYI: In 1980 Olin Corp sold the Winchester plant in New Haven to its employees. They ran it for nine years before going broke. It wasn't sold and moved by the parent corp as implied above. It just couldn't compete and make a profit as it existed in New Haven. The brand was sold to two other corporations, one of which is Browning. Browning now is the parent company for Winchester guns sold in the U.S.

[gandydancer]

Don't like the cross bolt safety on a marlin 336? Replace it.

http://www.longhunt.com/storelh/index.php?route=product/product&path=88_93&product_id=224:D

[robertbank]

Well that eliminates the guilt I was beginning to acquire for buying a Ithaca shotgun made in Japan 42 years ago.

Take care

Bob

[birch]

I have one of the Miroku 92's in .45 colt and it is one of my favorite guns. I have never had one problem in any way, and it shoots one hole groups at 50 yards.

Also--It has a soul, which is way more than I can say for the current crop of "American" companies producing firearms. The fit, finish, and attention to detail is outstanding. I would buy one of each model of Miroku made Winchesters if I had the cash to do so.

Browning only produced one firearm of its own devises. The Belgians (FN) and Japanese (Miroku) made browning"s name in the firearms industry but people buy under the Browning banner (saltwood anyone).

People would rather buy trash for little money than spend the bucks for quality. The Ruger American is a perfect example. They are guaranteed MOA and sell for around 350 in my neck of the woods. Bang for the buck?--Yes. Quality?--They seem to work? Soul?--not so much.

By the way, if anyone is interested in a fine "New" bolt gun, check out the new Winchester, I mean FN, I mean Browning model 70's!! I have a friend with a 30-06 featherweight and it is one fine piece of craftsmanship and quality. Damn Belgians and their foreign ways.

[cbrick]

Well NSB, we'll see what you have to post once it is your job sent overseas and the pad lock is being placed on your home. Everything is warm & fuzzy when it's someone else.

Rick

[NSB]

Well NSB, we'll see what you have to post once it is your job sent overseas and the pad lock is being placed on your home. Everything is warm & fuzzy when it's someone else.

Rick
Been there and done that. I've lost two jobs to plants moving to Mexico and one engineering job lost to the economic downturn in 2008. I got other jobs pretty quickly and didn't spend any time crying about it. What does that have to do with Winchester? You need to learn the history of Winchester and know what you're talking about. Everything you're saying is incorrect. If they couldn't make a profit in New Haven, and the plant was at that time employee owned, what do you think should happen? The Miroku guns are Winchester branded names only. Just names.
Oddly enough, one of the companies I worked for that moved to Mexico was located in New Haven, Ct. also. Nothing to do with the shooting industry though. Something in the water?

[Dan Cash]

Can you elaborate why? Just curious and eager to learn.

Impact on the primer is reported to be weak resulting in failure to fire. This is what I have read and I do not one one of these contraptions. I do have a rebounding hammer shot gun, a 1950 vintage Mossberg which was my first real gun. It works but it has a main spring built for a man.
I have handled some of the rebounding spring, tang safety Winchesters and I believe the reports are true.

[robertbank]

Well NSB, we'll see what you have to post once it is your job sent overseas and the pad lock is being placed on your home. Everything is warm & fuzzy when it's someone else.

Rick

Rick the employees you are worked up about owned the company and couldnt make it work. The jobs did not move to Japan, a company bought the rights to the name and that company is now producing Winchesters on equipment that was already in Japan by workers who were already employed in Japan. Last time I looked Japanese workers have a higher average wage than exists in the US so it is not a case of cheap labour taking American jobs.

This has been going on since the industrial revolution. I own a Toyota Avalon made in St. Louis, MO, designed by American designers, made by American workers by a Japanese company. A company I could, if I chose to buy shares in.

We live in a world economy where the days of going to school once in your life time is over. Rather than refusing to buy a product made in another country, why not support government initiatives to provide funds for adult re-education and be prepared to pay for it through higher taxes if you are concerned about your fellows.

Canadian companies are the largest customers for products made in 39 of your lower 48 States. How many of those products do you think would be purchased by Canadian consumers if Americans refused to buy Canadian made products. The reverse is also true.

If the employees could not generate a profit making Winchesters the business closes. That is the first lesson in a free marketplace. Para recently moved all their production of pistols to South Carolina from Toronto. The Toronto workers lost their jobs and had to move on. Should I now refuse to buy American made products just because someone at Para made a business decision. I do not think so.

Take Care

Bob

[Ramjet-SS]

Bob,

I think every American should think about supporting American made products and buying local so also stimulate the local economy and support American workers. Not saying Union saying American workers of all kinds. It is choice but also know the holding company of Browning is faceless group of money grubbing profiteering investors you know the kind who buy companies and put themselves above everyone else.

Nope I will buy Henry rifles great family owned company making a fantastic product and Customer Service second to none.

Got nothing against Japan or their workers or India and their workers but I will support and root for the Home Team.

[robertbank]

Fair enough but it is not always possible and buying the best quality - price trade off keeps everyone honest and ends up being the best for the economy.

Take Care

Bob

[KirkD]

I've had three different Miroku-built lever guns and all were beauties. The best one, which I still have, is the Browning 1886 saddle ring carbine 45-70. It was built like the original .... half cock safety, no rebounding hammer and no tang safety. I have heard of the rebounding/light primer strike problems, but the two Miroku Winchesters did not suffer from it. If you can get your hands on a Browning 1886 Saddle Ring Carbine 45-70, grab it.

Regarding where I buy stuff from .... I will not pay the local boys down the road to build a shoddy product. In this day of international competition, there is no excuse for an American or Canadian company to build second rate stuff. There are still first-class American shooting-oriented companies to buy from. Shiloh Sharps is one of them. Turnbull Restorations is another. When it comes to bullet moulds, I have been very pleased with Accurate Moulds, another American company. When it comes to quality lever guns, however, it is hard to beat the Miroku made Brownings and Winchesters.

[robertbank]

I've had three different Miroku-built lever guns and all were beauties. The best one, which I still have, is the Browning 1886 saddle ring carbine 45-70. It was built like the original .... half cock safety, no rebounding hammer and no tang safety. I have heard of the rebounding/light primer strike problems, but the two Miroku Winchesters did not suffer from it. If you can get your hands on a Browning 1886 Saddle Ring Carbine 45-70, grab it.

Regarding where I buy stuff from .... I will not pay the local boys down the road to build a shoddy product. In this day of international competition, there is no excuse for an American or Canadian company to build second rate stuff. There are still first-class American shooting-oriented companies to buy from. Shiloh Sharps is one of them. Turnbull Restorations is another. When it comes to bullet moulds, I have been very pleased with Accurate Moulds, another American company. When it comes to quality lever guns, however, it is hard to beat the Miroku made Brownings and Winchesters.

+1

Bob

[Kull]

Well said KirkD.

[451whitworth]

KirkD speaks my lingo. My Miroku/Browning 1886's, 1892's, 1895's reproductions from the '80's are the cats pj's. I don't own any Henry's but I've seen alot of real nice wood on them for such an affordable firearm.

[Lead Fred]

When I was getting into levers, I spent months researching Winchesters. This is what I figured out.

94s come in three lots 1963 and older, 1964-1980, 1981 and newer.

Pre-64 is the way to go, I now have a 1949. I had a 1967, and tho it worked perfectly, it was hollow sounding, the parts were not as nice as the pre-64s, it was a very good rifle.
My bud has a 1971 94 in 44mag. Ive got to replace a bent hollow roll pin, and jewel some to smooth the action out.

I was told by 100% of all the Winnie folks never to buy any 94 newer than 1981. The are all junk. Between the lawyer CBS (cross bolt safety) & the side eject, problems abound.

Ive owned several Marlins, with CBS, and have removed them all. As far as I know, no one ever made a CBS removal kit, like they have for Marlins.

[Dryball]

Gandydancer, thanks for the info on the CBS replacement...I never knew they existed and just ordered one!

[winelover]

Being left-handed, I hate the cross bolt safeties. I never engaged it, as a result. Once, in a hunting situation, I found that it had engaged. Here is my non-permanent solution.


86505


Winelover

[robertbank]

Winnelover excellent solution thanks. I see you have a peep sight mounted. Who made that one.

Take Care

Bob

[FergusonTO35]

Love the snap ring idea, I'll remember that. Henry is a great company, I really need to buy one of their .30-30's someday. My H001T is sweet, one of the few rimfire rifles that actually fits me.

[winelover]

Winnelover excellent solution thanks. I see you have a peep sight mounted. Who made that one.

Take Care







Bob



X-S Sights

Winelover

[KirkD]

Speaking of first class American-built quality, if you want to put a tang sight on your new lever gun, I would highly recommend http://www.montanavintagearms.com . I received one of their tang sights a couple months ago and it is a beautiful precision instrument. I am mounting it on my Browning SRC 45-70 lever gun since my old eyes can't focus up close enough anymore to sharpen up that front sight. The tang sight solves that problem.

[Canuck Bob]

Speaking of first class American-built quality, if you want to put a tang sight on your new lever gun, I would highly recommend http://www.montanavintagearms.com . I received one of their tang sights a couple months ago and it is a beautiful precision instrument. I am mounting it on my Browning SRC 45-70 lever gun since my old eyes can't focus up close enough anymore to sharpen up that front sight. The tang sight solves that problem.

Kirk I am very interested in your review of that sight. I'm glad to hear you got it ordered in. Is it windage adjustable, I could never quite figure that out from the pics?

[North_of_60]

I have a Model 1895 Japchester that I traded for. I love it. I hadn't even heard of a Miroku before that. The tang safety was most likely designed by lawyers because the only thing it adds to the gun is aggravation. But like many others have said here, just learn to live with it.

As far as the rebound hammer goes I have not had a bit of trouble or a single misfire due to it. But then I'm kind of a wimp, at -20 I just quit shooting. It may be a problem if I need to shoot it when is gets cold. I may try it this winter. If I do I'll report back.

Al

[Canuck Bob]

Please confirm something. Didn't the safety and rebound hammer source from the pre-Miroku era. I thought the last series of US owned Winchester produced rifles were outfitted this way. I've never handled a late AE but always thought this of the 94AE.

[fecmech]

I've never handled a late AE but always thought this of the 94AE.
My .357 94AE from the early 2000's was a rebounder.

[FergusonTO35]

My 2002 94 had a rebounding hammer and push button safety.

[shdwlkr]

first I have had real winchesters made here in the old USA which no longer exists, Japan and a lot of other places around the world.
I buy what fits my needs don't care who makes it as long as they understand firearms, good design and functionality.
As to the lost of firearm makers here look at stock holders, bean counters, suppliers and to some extent workers, the last being the real pawns in the whole deal.
The firearms industry in this country is really risky place to be just look at Henry Repeating Arms and how hard they are fighting to just stay in business and how long they have been this game.

Fighting over why we have to buy a firearm with a name that used to be made in America is silly, just look how we don't make anymore it is all driven by profits and greed has nothing to do with desire or should we stay or go.

Winchester is only a name now for a firearm that resembles what was once made here, one of the issues was that new machines cost ex dollars and Japanese could make the same thing for x dollars less per firearm and no capital expense by the parent company here only purchase of a company name and that was a one time expense.

The reality is today most business decisions are based on what the bean counters say should be done to generate profits to the share holders and they have no problem dumping whole company and the workers if they can make some bucks off the deal.

[WinMike]

......Japanese could make the same thing for x dollars less per firearm and no capital expense by the parent company.....

I'm not sure Miroku makes them cheaper....they're just better. I bought my first in the '90s when I collected almost all versions of Browning's low wall (22 Hornet, .223 Rem, .243, .260, .357 Mag. I missed out on the .45 Colt) I've sold all but a couple, but in the meantime, they shot well, were accurate, and were very well made, with good-looking wood that fit well. I'm sure that didn't hurt the re-sale value, which was higher than what I paid.

If I wanted a low wall in the early-90s, what was my choice? I believe Browning's re-issue was the only one at the time. There certainly weren't any US-made choices.

And I hate to bring up the automobile issue, but Canuck Boy and Robertbank, I'm thinking of boy-cotting Canada.....except my Chevy pickup and my wife's new Lexus were both made in Toronto. Maybe next year.....:kidding:

[shdwlkr]

Where the japanese saved cost was in labor expense and already having the newer tooling to make firearms.
Miroku has been making firearms for a very long time they know how to put together what the customers wants. Howa is another firm over there that does very good work if you are willing to pay for quality.
Vehicles my car has parts from at least two countries and maybe more
My truck is branded US but a lot of it was made in Canada and else where

[robertbank]

WinMike that is trade for you.

I bought my Toyota Avalon a while back - best car I have ever owned BTW - made in St. Louis, MO by American workers who know how to put a car together. The N.A. auto industry has been fully integrated since the 60's. You can't buy a N.A. built car without some or all parts being made in either Canada, Mexico or the U.S. While Mexico is the late commer to the industry, Canada/US auto production goes back to the origins of the industry in N.A.

Take Care

Bob

[osteodoc08]

Wow. Some strong opinions on the subject. I guess I should stick to my Marlins.

So is there a "fix" for the light primer strikes associated with the rebounding hammers? I'm really trying to make sure I don't get a lemon. Is there a way to test it before purchase?

[robertbank]

Wow. Some strong opinions on the subject. I guess I should stick to my Marlins.

So is there a "fix" for the light primer strikes associated with the rebounding hammers? I'm really trying to make sure I don't get a lemon. Is there a way to test it before purchase?

The guns are designed to work properly. One light strike repeated 1000 times is not a 1000 light strikes. Even if you could test fire the gun what would it prove. It fired when you tested it? No guarantee it will fire the next time. If the guns overwhelmingly did not work they simply would not sell or be reported on so favourably.

Take Care

Bob

[rbuck351]

American jobs are being lost overseas primarily because of US Govt regulations and taxes. You want to blame somebody, look in the mirror. We are the ones wanting to punish big business with taxes and fines because they make to much money while not thinking about the fact that the taxes and extra costs to the company from regulations are just passed on to the consumer in the form of higher prices on goods. We drive off business and complain because they leave. Drop all taxes on business ( you're paying them anyways ) and back off on a bunch of the stupid regulations and the gun companies and others will return. US companies can make anything as well as anybody anywhere but, throw in a bunch of taxes and expensive to meet regulations and the price of goods goes up or in some cases make it impossible to even open the doors. Just try to drill for more oil in Alaska and see what happens. The feds will shut down your drills before you really get started. You don't think so, talk to Shell Oil. Regulations shut down a well in the Gulf of Mexico a couple of years ago after capping it from a blow out. It was, when cemented in, what they wanted when it was drilled, a finished well ready to produce. You can try to blame this on the consumer if you want but the reason business is going overseas is because of the extra expense of taxes and regulation.

[TXGunNut]

Plenty of blame to go around for lost American jobs, from the consumer all the way up (down?) to the president and everyone in between including corporate boards, shareholders, guvmint agencies and the economy in general. No need to discuss that here. I happen to enjoy gazing upon the Miroku rifles just can't bring myself to buy one.

[Canuck Bob]

Wow. Some strong opinions on the subject. I guess I should stick to my Marlins.

So is there a "fix" for the light primer strikes associated with the rebounding hammers? I'm really trying to make sure I don't get a lemon. Is there a way to test it before purchase?

Check out post #11 for a link. There is other sites, I'll try and search them.
Here you go, it includes instructions and a link to another site.

http://reloadingandlevergunning.blogspot.ca/2007/02/winchestermiroku-86-mods.html

[WinMike]

I guess I should stick to my Marlins

go over to the Marlin forums and ask yourself if you really want to buy a new Marlin....or "Remlin," as they say.

[tygar]

OK what have I missed??

Did Remington buy Marlin or what's going on?

I have been reading this line because I have been interested in a .454 & a .375 levergun & have been trying to get info on it. While researching it, I have seen lots of stuff going on about levers in general.

I have had lots of levers since my first one in the 60s & have never had a lemon. Some have shot very well & others not so well, but all were made good. Wins, Marlins, Savage, Browning plus 22s & others I can't remember.

I currently only have 2 CF levers, Marlin .450 from early 90s & Savage 99 30-30 from the 20s. Both shoot JBs well, but so far I have only got the Savage to shoot good with cast & only the 130sp.

So I really want to know how the quality of the current lines of levers has deteriorated or are some OK & some not.

I just emaild Rossi to see if they can customize a 92 in .454 & or do a Rio Grande in .454 or .460.

I am also going to look at the possibility of converting a Marlin into a .460/.454 or .500,

Any of you have any experience or ideas on that conversion?

BTW I don't like the bolt safety on the new Rossi & don't mind the tang safety on Wins/Brownings. Have them on lots of shotguns & double rifles. Half cock is fine for a hammer lever. The lever safety on the Savage is fine also but not any better than a tang safety & probably slower to use.

So I'd like to hear more about the problems with current levers or old ones for that matter.
THanks
Tom

[DEVERS454]

I love my jap-win 1886 takedown. Its 45-90 and brutally accurate with both black powder and smokeless loads.

It took a whole summer of trial and error to find both those loads that work best, but, I don't regret the final resuts. I keep 240rds of each load squirreled away and play with the rest.

But, I would never pause to buy another one if funds appeared.

One day I will send it off to Turnbull to have the rebounding hammer disappear and have it color case hardened. Maybe remove the jap markings, but, they are not the enemy. I made peace withthat long ago when I bought my subaru and traded in my ford. Not a single regret about that either.

[double8]

I still can't quite get used to calling a Japanese Miroku a Winchester......I've owned and still own some fine "Winchesters". My 1902 1886 Extra Lightweight 45-70 Winchester is just a great piece of what American made rifles used to be.

[robertbank]

Well we never called the Conn. made Winchesters Olins. ;) Just Winchesters made in a different place.

Take Care

Bob

[WinMike]

Little over a hundred years ago, John Browning got into a tiff with Winchester, and took his Auto-5 design to FN Herstal, in Belgium. Didn't seem to affect Auto-5 sales too much, nor were there racist complaints about FN's subsequent production of Hi-Power and Citori ("...them dang Belgies"? ....actually, I'm a little mystified about what shortened perjorative comment one would use vis-a-vis Belgium, but I'm sure there's one somewhere). Of course, the internet didn't exist then, so if there were complaints, there's little or no record. [smilie=b:

And yes, the day after Christmas, 2007 (Happy Holidays!), Remington bought Marlin and subsequently moved production from N. Haven, Conn, to Kentucky. Internet chatter, mostly on marlinowners.com is that lever actions produced after that move were poorly constructed, with tooling issues and poor stock fit. Posts on the same forum have lately reported that quality has improved, but one should inspect a new purchase carefully. :neutral:

[double8]

Don't know about the levers, but the RemLin 795 Semi .22 that I bought was a *** and left shortly after.

[North_of_60]

So is there a "fix" for the light primer strikes associated with the rebounding hammers? I'm really trying to make sure I don't get a lemon. Is there a way to test it before purchase?

I ran 16 rounds through my Model 1895 Miroku 450 WCF a few days ago at 0 degrees F and never had a "light primer strike". All 16 rounds went boom.

I have put over 300 rounds through this rifle so far and never had a in issue using CCI Large Rifle and CCI Large Rifle Magnum primers.

I don't know what you could do to test it before hand.

Al

[DougGuy]

Ok somebody send me a Miroku made Winnie model 92 in .45 Colt or .44 Magnum and I will get back to you in say 2yrs and report faithfully on how it shot and how many deer it took down and how far they ran (in feet and inches). :bigsmyl2:

[Loudenboomer]

I don't have a dog in this fight but I have a Japchester 86 extra lite and did have lite primer strike problems. All was well with the mild weather shooter until the buck I wanted showed up on a 9 degree Minnesota morning. I applied the rebound fix mentioned on a previous post. Took care of the problem. Lightened the trigger pull and now hits the primers hard. The slab side always shot well but now I can trust it.
P.S. That buck is on my avatar killed a while later with my mod 70 FWT 30-06

[303carbine]

I just bought an 1886 Winchester in 45-70, I passed on a half dozen Remlins to get the Winchester. I have had a lot of the original Marlin 45-70's and liked them a lot, the quality sucks now and they are still made in America. Being made in America doesn't assure quality.
I am disgusted with the poor quality of the new Remlin's, I have seen them with crooked and missing sights, no loading gate, poor wood fit and the list goes on.

[ofreen]

Being left-handed, I hate the cross bolt safeties. I never engaged it, as a result. Once, in a hunting situation, I found that it had engaged. Here is my non-permanent solution.


86505


Winelover

Few things are more satisfying than an elegant solution.