A black virgin

[Limey]

Help!.....I'm a black powder virgin....

I have been shooting smokeless for 30 years and have always cast and reloaded my own. Sadly, there has alway's been too much month left at the end of the money so I have alway's had to find way's to make my shooting cheaper and casting and reloading my own was the way to go.....plus, you always knew what you were letting off!

Anyway, I have just bought my first BP gun....it's a Pedersoli 45/70 Sharps replica and I want to get some BP rounds loaded up and test it.......

My question is.....is it safe to use my Lee powder dumper/measure to dose out the black stuff into the brass?......I do not want to blow the house up!.....if no, what are your suggestions please?

The powder I have bought to start up with is FFg.

Safe shooting

Limey

[EDK]

There are a lot of "horror stories" and "old wives' tales" concerning black powder, static electricity, measures and the combination of all three. Some people even get excited about plastic products like funnels, but SWISS comes in a plastic container similair to most smokeless powder containers.

In the interest of caution--and better ammunition!--I use a set of LEE dippers and weight each charge for my SHILOH SHARPS 50/90. Rifle ammo isn't usually produced in the same quantity as pistol ammo, so there isn't much reason to use the powder measure anyhow. You'll also probably be using a drop tube to "settle the powder" plus an over powder wad and a compression die.

You might want to go to shilohrifle.com/forums, goexpowder.com or one of the other numerous black powder shooting sites. Get a copy of Mike Venturino's SHOOTING BUFFALO RIFLES OF THE OLD WEST (autographed if you buy it from him) or Randolph Wrights LOADING & SHOOTING PAPER PATCH BULLETS, A BEGINNER'S GUIDE. The Wright book is profusely illustrated and covers basic loading as well as paper patch.

You're in a vastly different reloading style with black powder and its various nuances and quirks. Do a lot of research. There's a lot of people willing to help and offer their opinions and experiences. BUT the key word is OPINIONS. I'm learning what works in the "Big 50" every time I load for and/or shoot it, but it may not work in your gun or a different caliber.

Good luck :castmine:

[yeahbub]

Not to worry, Limey. I pre-measure Black through my Lyman powder measure routinely for muzzle loading competitions and have no problems IF I disassemble the measure after metering the powder to blow out the fine dust that gets in those tight places. If not, within a few days, the measure will be stiff to operate rather than effortless. It can be easily cleaned out, but I try to never let that happen - I have other things to load. A few squirts of dry graphite into the mechanism prior to reassembly increases the consistency of the measure as well. Enjoy!

[montana_charlie]

I normally check this form section daily, but the title of your thread assured that I would look in. I spent most of my Vietnam Vacation on top of a mouintain with the same name.

I wish that "Can I use a Lee measure?" was the only question I had...when I decided to load for BPCR.

The thing about the 'other' questions is, once you find an answer - the answer itself usually generates another question.
CM

[Limey]

Boy's,

Thank you for your prompt replies and suggestions.

I have also just heard back from the Lee factory directly...........their e-mail said, and I quote:

'You can not use black powder in any of the Lee Powder measures. The powder dippers would be ok for black powder.

.....so, I guess it's proceed with caution if you are already doing this.

I guess I will be shopping for some dippers and I am looking forward to loads of happy (frustrating?) hours of experimentation getting my new gun shooting well.

Also thank you for the URL's about single shot rifles....I am off there now!

Safe shooting

Limey

[KCSO]

For your dipper cut off a 45-70 case and solder on a handle. My Pederoli really like 68 grains of Elephant FFg and a bees wax and bear oil lubed Lee 405 hollow base. Normally 12-18 shots w/o cleaning and with the factory iron sights it will shoot under 3" all day long.

[13Echo]

I have a friend using the Lee powder measure for his black powder and it does well even though Lee does not recommend it. Considering the measure does not shear powder, or cause metal on metal sparks there is little reason to think it is not safe. Numerous tests have shown static sparks will not ignite powder. I wouldn't hesitate to use one but you have to make your own decision. But, as long as you have scales, you can get by without a measure, it's just bloody inconvenient.

Have you dies, and have you a way to compress the powder charge, what mould do you have and what is your alloy, and what are you going to use for lube?

Jerry Liles

[montana_charlie]

"You can not use black powder in any of the Lee Powder measures. The powder dippers would be ok for black powder."

Lee's lawyers made them say that.

I use a Redding No. 3 to throw black powder charges.
The measure is made of steel parts...which can make sparks.
The hopper is made of plastic...which can take on a static charge.

I am not worried one bit.

CM

[wills]

I use an RCBS, and am still here. You might take a look at

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/sparks/sparks.html

[The Double D]

All the reloading tool folks for the 40 years I have been reloading have always warned not to use black powder in their tools. Black powder is made by remote control. "I pre-measure Black through my Lyman powder measure routinely for muzzle loading competitions and have no problems IF I disassemble the measure after metering the powder to blow out the fine dust that gets in those tight places." The black powder makers pack there product in special non sparking containers...

I Think it's high time to get this one resolve...where are Jaime and Adam when you need them?

[Wayne Smith]

They did it! They couldn't generate enough heat to create an explosion, either. At least, not with any reasonable process. Of course they did prove that BP explodes when ignited, but that static electricity won't do it.

[Limey]

In response to 13Echo's questions about what other kit I am using, here goes!:

What dies?.

They are Lee, I already load 45/70 for my Marlin Guide Gun....(I use this for hunting the local wild boar and deer).....it is a 4 die set now as I have added the Factory Crimp Die.

How do I compress the charge?

With smokeless I am actually short loading the brass....I use 26 grains of Tubal 2000 which is a French powder.....(max load for this powder/bullet weight combo is 46 grains......my load is point of aim out to 70 to 80 metres which is the typical hunting range over here as it is all driven game onto the guns by hunting dogs) I use cotton wool as an over powder packer....works a treat and the confetti effect down range is amusing!......I am assuming that when I am loading BP that if the charge needs compressing won't the bullet do that for me as it is pressed into the case?........please put me right if this is a bad assumption.

Mould Type?

It is the Lee 405 grain hollow base.....I have never had any problems with the skirts blowing off when using smokeless

Alloy type?

Straight wheel weights dropped straight into cold water


Lube type?

Lee Allox.........has worked great up to now with my smokeless loads.....maybe not good enough for BP to keep the crud soft.....advice please.

I have gathered together all the makings to make Felix Lube.....just not got round to making up a brew yet........


I shoot on a shoe string budget....(you probably noticed the Lee theme going on!).....so apart from swirling or finger application I have no other lube applicating method......in the old days when I used to shoot back in England before all the legitamate shooters had their guns confiscated as a vote winning ploy by Tony Blair, I had a Lyman lube/sizing tool.....it was a fabulous bit of kit but it is long gone now and currently too expensive for me to replace.....maybe one day.


Also thanks for the tip about making dippers from 45/70 brass....I have thought about that....or alternatively I thought about using copper plumbing pipe....that way I don't have to 'waste' any of my brass!


A couple of hints and tips to share with you all:

Lube your spue plates with the copper grease you can buy in auto shops for lubing exhaust manifold nuts......works a treat

Lube your brass for re-sizing with wax furniture polish....preferably containg bee's wax.....works great and smells good....my current batch is lavender scented!



Safe shooting one and all

Limey

[nitroproof]

An adjustable measure available anywhere muzzleloading supplies are sold would work too.

They are usually made of brass and adjustable in 5 or 10 grain incraments. Check the charde against your powder scale.

[WBH]

Read Mike Venturino's book "Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the old West" and Paul Matthews book on Black powder Cartridge rifles. Both are invaluable in speeding up the learning curve.

[13Echo]

Wheel weight bullets may be hard enough to compress the powder charge without distorting the bullet, especially if it doesn't require much compression. If you plan on using relatively large charges (60 to 70grs) it is likely that the bullet will deform. You can cast a bullet out of a very hard alloy like linotype, run it through a sizer down to about .454 or .452 and use it to compress the powder in the sized case, otherwise a compression plug would be a good idea.

The Lee 405 gr hollow base is one I use in my Trapdoors and it is a good bullet. It tends to cast large (about .460") which may or may not be a problem in your chamber. Alloy for BPCR is usually rather soft around 30 or 20 to 1 lead to tin. Wheel weights will work but may not be ideal. I would let them air cool rather than water quench. They'll certainly get you started.

Lube for black powder is different from most smokeless lubes. Alox lubes and lubes with mineral oils or waxes frequently result in a tar like deposit in the bore. Most shooters use various mixtures of beeswax and vegatable or animal oils. A common one is half and half beeswax and olive oil. I'm using 6parts beeswax to 4 parts peanut oil to 2 parts lanolin by weight. There are many, many more recipes and commercial versions available. Felix lube will work but I suggest you substitute castor oil for the mineral oil and skip the half hour cooking step. Felix lube has a rather high melting point and doesn't do well for pan lubing which is the best way to lube your bullets.

You'll also find a blow tube is handy to keep powder fouling soft when shooting. A good book on shooting and loading BPCR would also be a good idea but there are useful intructions on the web. Go to this url http://www.ssbpcrc.co.uk/SubFrameSet.htm click on Guns and Ammo, go to the bottom of the page and load "introduction to BPCR loading" . There are many other things you'll eventually acquire or make if you get hooked on black but you have the basics and just need to put it all together and get to the range.

Jerry Liles

[Buckshot]

................Hey Limey, a warm welcome to the board! Ya know, people have been loading and shooting BP loaded loose down the muzzle, and in cartridges for WAY longer then there has been smokless powder. The first 'Yeah But' is the recognized fact that without a doubt they had a MUCH wider array of truly superb BP's to choose from and use then we do today.

They had various grades of powder designed for muskets, shotguns, pistols, small medium and large bore rifles produced by a myriad of companies. Competition for market share kept these companies searching for a better product. There were few larger towns and villages that did not have a local powder mill, and many there were international companies doing business worldwide.

Maybe the lack is better for us as it simplifies things immensely. So far as I know there are only 4 companies producing BP. You have Goex, Swiss, Schuetzen (German) and a company in Hungary I think it is. Too bad about Elephant in Brazil as they were keen to please the end user. Another thing too is lube and wads. All they had to use were natural products. Wads were of plant fiber or fur derivative. Lubes were also of plant, animal or insect (beeswax) extraction.

All said, those folks did some pretty fancy shooting, and at some pretty fancy ranges too. We have better manufactured guns and made of materials far beyond the capabilities of even the most advanced maker then. Our tolerences are now measured in fractions of a thousandth of an inch.

For BPC I'd not use any petroleum based lube as it isn't really compatable with BP. There is nothing in BP or it's fouling that is insoluable in water. That's all you should need to clean your rifle and cases of fouling and excess lube. Possibly a bit of liquid soap to make the water wetter to help clean, and maybe a bit of heat to make the mix a bit more energetic :-).

BP by it's nature is an inefficient propellant. A large percentage of it's mass is ejected from the muzzle as smoke, sparks and other particles, plus much is left as fouling on the interior of the bore. Unlike smokless powder it has a very small amount of enegry per grain weight of powder. Another difference between BP and smokless is that BP burns about as energeticly loose in a pile on the ground as it does in a rifle barrel behind a boolit. Smokless on the other hand requires consistant pressure to burn, and will even go out in some situations.

Some match winning competitors scale all their charges. Some of the same type folks don't and throw their charges. Part of winning is your confidence in your loads, and due to BP's nature I think those scaling each charge do it for the peace of mind more then anything else. One more grain of 4350 in a 30-06 is going to get you another 50 fps but one more grain of BP isn't going to do much for ya.

If you do a lot of reading about loading for the BPC rifle you'll find out there are a mass of contradictions. For one instance take primers. Some say to use the hottest primers you can find, so for some time it was Federal LRMP and Winchester LRMP's (with Fed's more favored) for this crowd. Then you had others saying you wanted a 'softer' primer. They seemed to favor Remington's output. You also had folks putting a piece of paper across the primer hole inside the case. It kept powder out of the primer and was also supposed to soften the ignition flame.

You also have the "Compress the powder till it comes up solid" crowd and you have the "Send it through a drop tube and load" bunch, or similarly the "Vibrate it down and load" faction.

Old original BPC loads have been disassembled and you'll have both types. One of each I recall was some 43 Spanish ammo captured in Cuba and it was 20 years old then. When some of it was shot 70 years after that, most went off. Rounds broken down found the powder charge to be a solid mass. On the other hand some factory Sharps cartridges had their charge pour right out after the bullet and wad were removed. Different philosophies, or.................?

I think it will come down just trying methods that others have used with success using our limited range of powders. You can use comparable brass, primers, wads and lubes to those used way back when, but the powders available and loading methods will have to be experimented with. See what the winning shooters are using and try them. Change one thing at a time and keep good records.

We had a hot BPC silhuette guy I knew at our range. He bought only the best equipment. I had an 01 FFL during this time and received several of his rifles and they were all first coach. One Tuesday he was hunkered over his rifle shooting. I mentioned to another guy that I see John is here practicing. The guy laughed and said that John was working up a new load. I'd seen John's shooting before and 200 meter groups off the bench would cut 2.5" or less. Why work up a different load?

A bit later John came storming up all red faced. Apparently he'd run out of powder (he'd been using Elephant 2Fg and 3 Fg mixed) and had ordered more. Alas and alack it was a different lot. His 2" 200 meter 5 shot groups had turned into 6 & 8 inch groups :-) He was steamed. He said he'd probably spent $75 in long distance phone calls trying to buy more of his previous lot, but no one who had any was willing to sell any of it. Poor John, sigh.

..............Buckshot

[Limey]

Blimey!....and I thought BP shooting was going to be simple (and hopefully cheap....fat chance of either I reckon!).....I justified buying this new gun to SWMBO by telling her it would be cheaper to shot than the beautiful, much regreted but necessary trade-in of my late, Winchester 9422 in WMR.

Thanks to Buckshot for the new URL to go and visit....it's been added to 'Favourites' already!

What is a blow tube?.....how does it work and how does it make barrel crud softer/easier to clean out?....what are they made of?....can I make one out in my shed?

Do you need to clean your brass differently if they have been used for BP?....I currently clean my smokeless brass in a vibrating cleaner

Using FFG, what are folks using as a typical 45/70 load with a 405grain bullet......the BP I have is made/supplied by Nobel and they are quoting between 2.5 and 3 grams....that's between 38 and 46 grains.........I have seen people quoting 60 grains and more for their 45/70 loads!.......currently our range only has 200 metres to shoot over but we are working on getting this up to 300 metres......so I will be loading to punch some holes in paper targets at these ranges and do not need to knock over elephants!

I currently use a Marlin Guide Gun in 45/70 for hunting.......I have been told that my brand new Pedersoli Sharps replica can take smokeless up to a threshold....I have also seen loads of smokeless quoted so I guess it's true.......anybody else in here shoot smokeless OK?......I am looking for some re-assurance to this question so I can load up some rounds that will be shootable in either of my guns.

There must be some other Pedersoli shooters in here....any hints or tips on how to look after the gun and things to look out for please?, thank you in anticipation for your advice and recommendations.

Spent yesterday afternoon casting....I was working two moulds, my Lee 45/70 and my Lee 38/357....I have a beautiful, blue 6 inch Python....it was made in 1980 but I bought it second hand and you'd swear it was brand new......and I listened to the new Eagles album...(twice, and it's a double album!....it was a long session.... but I got a lot of bullets made!)......'Long road out of Eden'....now, I am an Eagles fan but this new one is so different to their last album.....sounded more like a blend of Bruce Springteen and the Beach Boys to me.....what do other folk think about it?.....maybe it will grow on me....I need another casting session!


Anyway, I've wittered on far too long....

Safe shooting

Limey

[nitroproof]

Limey~

A blow tube can be something as simple as a peice of brass or plastic tubing inserted in the chamber a blow a few breaths to keep the fowling soft.
Running a damp patch between shots with a cleaning rod works well too.

As for lube, SPG is the most popular commercial product, I'm sure someone can come up with a home made recipe for a BP lube. If you don't have lubricator-sizer simply pan lube with a once fired/cut off 45/70 shell to cut the boolits out of the lube.

Wads- I make all my own with proper diameter hollow punch. I use coffee can lids (LDPE) or cardboard tablet backing. I also use one or two discs cut from newspaper to prevent the wad from sticking to the bullet bottom.

Loading BP cartridges can be as simple or complicated as you wish to make it.

Most importantly is to deprime and wash your cases as soon as possible then rinse them out and put them in the tumbler if you have one.

[montana_charlie]

What is a blow tube?.....how does it work and how does it make barrel crud softer/easier to clean out?....what are they made of?....can I make one out in my shed?
Yes you can make one.

The typical store-bought blow tube resembles a 45/70 case that has it's head drilled out to accept a 'barb', and a piece of tubing is placed on the barb.
In use, the device is placed in the chamber after a shot, and you blow moist breath into the barrel.

Fill your lungs deeply, then produce a long, slow, lung-emptying stream to get the most moisture into the fouling in the barrel.
Most will use a set pattern of breaths (perhaps three or four) between shots, with the number being based on the current humidity and temperature.

The purchased blowtubes often have an O-ring near the mouth of the 45/70 case to prevent moisture from blowing backward into the chamber. A wet chamber is not a good thing.

My blow tube is simply a length of surgical tubing which is a close (but not tight) fit in the chamber. Pressed fully forward, I get no moisture in the chamber.

Do you need to clean your brass differently if they have been used for BP?....I currently clean my smokeless brass in a vibrating cleaner
Most will drop it in a jug of water (with a small amount of liquid detergent) shortly after firing. Many will even deprime the cases before the soak. At home, a hot rinse will remove most of the fouling from inside the cases...but brushes, rags, and ultra-sonic cleaners are often employed.

Tumblers (of both types) are regularly used for final cleaning.

Using FFG, what are folks using as a typical 45/70 load with a 405grain bullet......the BP I have is made/supplied by Nobel and they are quoting between 2.5 and 3 grams....that's between 38 and 46 grains.........I have seen people quoting 60 grains and more for their 45/70 loads!.......currently our range only has 200 metres to shoot over but we are working on getting this up to 300 metres......so I will be loading to punch some holes in paper targets at these ranges and do not need to knock over elephants!
Generally, a particular charge of black powder is chosen, not for it's knockdown capability, but for it's accuracy with a given bullet.
The cartridge designation "45/70" means ".45 caliber/70 grains of powder". That was the 'standard' load when the cartridge was in common use, but that cartridge was loaded with a 500 grain bullet for use in 'rifles'. The 'carbine' load used a lighter bullet and lighter charge...and it's recoil didn't knock carbine-equipped cavalrymen off of their horses.

People who use Swiss powder usually don't compress it very much, while those loading Goex feel that heavier compression is necessary for a proper burn.
I can't even guess where Nobel powder ranks in that area.

My advice is to fill the case with enough powder that the level is a just a tiny bit higher in the case than the base of a fully seated bullet. Compress the powder (this very small amount) when seating the bullet, and try that load to see how the gun likes it.

For comparison, load a second batch of cases with (perhaps) five grains more powder than the other charge, and tap the case on the bench about ten times to settle the powder. Use a 'settled' charge that fills the case to the same level as the first batch. Again, seating the bullet firmly on the powder column will compress it a small amount...but not enough to deform your bullet.
(By the way, when I say 'five grains' I am speaking of a scale-weighed quantity. If you use a volume measure, you'll have to adjust your thinking to fit.)

If the heavier charge gets you better results, continue to increase the amount of powder until you get the performance you desire. If that means you must compress the powder enough to deform your bullet, Track Of The Wolf (dot com) sells a compression plug that fits in your Lee neck expander die. The price is around three dollars.

I currently use a Marlin Guide Gun in 45/70 for hunting.......I have been told that my brand new Pedersoli Sharps replica can take smokeless up to a threshold
The Pedersoli Sharps will safely handle any factory-loaded 45/70 ammunition.

There must be some other Pedersoli shooters in here....any hints or tips on how to look after the gun and things to look out for please?
Your rifle has one of the best match-quality barrels currently produced. Keep it clean, and free of lead build-up.
If you shoot copper-jacketed bullets, clean out all of the copper fouling before shooting lead alloy.

A bullet diameter of .460" will probably fit well in your chamber.

If wheelweight metal is your choice, the softer you can make those bullets the better they will perform when black powder is the propellant.
CM

[Limey]

Wow!....guy's your feedback and knowledge is amazing, thank you for educating me in the mysterious ways of BP.

This stuff about Blow Tubes and moisture is incredible!......who thought of this?.......is this a recent thing or did the original users of these guns back in the year 18 dot invent it?.....

And the vastly array of different cleaning rituals!.......just how did those people back then cope?.....or maybe they didn't and that's why you don't see many originals in really good condition now.......

....what have I done?.....I've entered into a strange new world.....and, and, I'm liking it!......thanks again guy's for your patience with my endless daft questions and current state of ignorance.

Safe shooting

Limey

[13Echo]

Limey,
what we are doing today is a reflection of how it was done 100years ago. If you've ever watched the movie Quigly Down Under you'll notice the hero blowing into the breech of his rifle after shooting. A blow tube is a lot more convenient. If you don't blow or wipe the fouling will sooner or later become hard and accuracy will go to ---, well it won't be accurate and cleaning will be difficult.

The bullet you are using, the Lee 405HB, is a copy of the Springfield 1873 bullet, the original for the 45-70. The carbine load was 55grs of powder with the bullet seated so a firm crimp could be placed over the front band on the bullet. It's still a good load. My friend's Trapdoor prefers 60grs of FFg to give best accuracy. It's a good starting point. We have shot as much as 70gs with this bullet with good results and this would probably be a better hunting load. The bullet should not be used with wads because of he hollow base so make darn certain you clean any lube off the base so it doesn't contaminate the powder. Heavier bullets tend not to require a crimp to get a clean burn of powder with the 530gr bullet I'm using in my 45-90 not even needing neck tension. One more thing - do not leave an airspace between the base of the bullet and powder charge when using black.

Pan lubing is easy. Place the bullets upright in a flat bottom pan. Melt the lube in a double boiler (keeps from overheating the lube - Felix lube with the soap additive will require more heat and is easy to scorch) and pour it into the pan until the lube grooves are covered. As the lube cools you'll eventually notice the lube pulling away from the edge of the pan. At this point turn it over and dump the intact cake out onto a thick, folded towel. Turn the cake back over with the bullet bases down on the folded towel and push on the tips to break them free from the lube cake. Piece of cake. Now if the lube cake is still too warm it may break up and if too cool it may do the same - takes a bit of practice but once you've done it once you'll know just what to do. A lot easier than using a "cookie cutter" to core out each bullet.

Cleaning is easy. Use the blow tube then push a patch wet (not sloppy wet) with plain water (or Perrier in France) from the breach. After the third patch the fouling should be out unless you've let it get hard. Follow with dry patches and a good gun oil and you're done. Check the bore again the next day. The reason you see so many originals in good condition today is because this simple cleaning procedure worked. When smokeless came along and shooters stopped using water as a solvent salts from the corrosive primers stayed in the barrel and the barrels rusted.

The Pedersoli is a strong rifle and will take even hot loads of smokeless in the 45-70 without a problem but it is so much more fun with black. My Long Range Rifle is giving 1 to 1.5" groups at 100yds and 2.5" at 200 just with iron sights, black powder, my own cast bullets, and homemade lube. Yours can, and will too and it is not necessary to be as anal compulsive as the really committed target shooter to get good results.

Jerry Liles

[nitroproof]

Limey~
Back before smokeless came along it was just called "gun powder". The same stuff was used in muzzleloaders, cannons, shotguns to pocket pistols to elephant rifles. Only the granulation size varied.

There we a bunch of manufacturers each with their own secret variation on sulphur, saltpeter and charcoal formula. The best of the Black Powders from yesteryear were probably superior to anything on the market today.

When Black was the only powder cleaning riturals were a fact of life. Since sulphur was so corrosive a good scrubbing was necessary to prevent pitted bores. The early primers were also corossive. Many guns got pitted bores because cleaning rituals required for black powder were abandoned when smokeless came along, the primer residue ruined many rifle and shotgun bores due to ignorance about the primers.

[martinibelgian]

Craig,

A little correction - it is NOT the sulphur that is corrosive. You need to clean a BP rifle because powder combustion will produce salts as residue that are hygroscopic, and will absorb humidity. And wet residue in contact with bare steel, yes, you guessed it... Nothing to do with the sulphur. You are spot-on about the primers though.

[Buckshot]

............One of the best Sporting grade powders back in the late 1800's was made in England by Curtis & Harvey and was their Orange Extra. It was a moist burning powder. It was produced with alder root charcoal and a byproduct of it's (the powder's) combustion was water. It produced a softer easier fouling to shoot through. To my knowledge the Swiss powder is the only one on the market that does this.

For quite a long time there was only one source of BP in The U.S. and that was DuPont. The oldest company in N. America still producing the same product. They sold off their BP operation and it became known as Goex. I really don't know how good or bad DuPont's product was as I certainly didn't know what I was doing or trying to accomplish when I used it. The excitement about BP in my early years was the Civil War centennial. There were no real BPC sports, but you did have the Civil War re-enactors.

There were the NMLRA who sanctioned matches for various disciplines, and then there were the mountain man and the "Roondyvooers" :-). I don't know how Goex started out, but by the time I was paying attention, when BPC silhuette got going in the early 90's it was apparently pretty bad stuff. I recall comments what it was made with fertilizer grade potassium nitrate, sulpher, and possibly the charcoal came from old pallets. As the only game in town you used it or went without.

Folks who were interested said all they wanted was to make stuff that would go off and to keep from blowing up their works, which seemed to happen with alarming regularity. Then Petro Explo organized and began importing Elephant brand BP from Brazil. It wasn't very good at first but the best thing was that they wanted to provide what the shooters were wanting, and they tried to be responsive to the need. Goex had some competition, and began to flounder around trying to upgrade their product.

I don't believe Goex had much of a technical dept because they hadn't needed one before but now the heat was on. At some point in there, Swiss BP became available also. Rumer had it that part of the reason the Swiss powder was so good was because of the creosote content of their charcoal. Instead of switching from their charcoal produced from old pallets (or whatever) Goex added creosote to the powder somewhere in the process. Didn't work out the same, and produced fouling that required a cold chisel to remove.

Then you had the German and the Hungarian BP entries to contend with. While I haven't bought or used any recently, word is that Goex has been making some pretty good BP. At one time Swiss BP was only a couple bucks more then Goex or Elephant (Elephant is now gone). Now Swiss BP costs dang near what smokless powder costs. Goex has come out with a cartridge grade to compete with the Swiss 1.5Fg and it too costs a ton. Regular Goex is still fairly inexspensive (comparatively).

Elephant was a softer less energetic powder, and compared to Swiss it wasn't very dense. A measure set at 75 grs would throw right at 75 grs of 2Fg Elephant. The same volumn charge of Swiss 2 Fg would give close to 80 grs of powder. Swiss also has glazed powder grains, not prone to breaking down further in shipment. Guys used to buy screens to sift out all the 'fines' as they'd end up with a good quantity in the bottom of the cans of Goex.

People do all kinds of things. Like that guy I mentioned previously who mixed Elephant 2 & 3Fg powder together. I suppose straight 3Fg was too hot and 2Fg wasn't hot enough. The big bugaboo with BP is fouling. So the thrust and where all the work goes is toward how to minimize it, or in some way lessen it's negative effects on following shots. Like using hotter primers, gobs of lube, grease cookies, wads of various and sundry thickensses and materials, and smokless powder atop the primer as an energizer. Paul Matthews even tried vitamin E gelcaps under the boolit :-)

Certainly we don't have exclusivity to BP fouling even though they had better stuff back then. Custer's troops had difficulties with it, although some of that may have been the soft copper cases used at first. I don't know what issues HM troops had at Rourke's Drift, but they sure fired enough ammo!

Shooting BP sounds like a resounding PITA and to me the only onerous part is cleaning the brass. Actually the rifles clean to bare metal in 1/10th the time it takes for smokless and jacketed bullets. If I were to get really serious about BPC shooting I'd pick a powder that people were using, ditto lube, primer, wads, and a common useable boolit design (vs a custom mould) made for BP useage. Then begin. After some use and familiarity I would experiment with one thing at a time, and while doing so I'd keep good notes, noting temps and humidity and even how I felt that day.

It's like that old saying, "How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time".

................Buckshot

[wills]

http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/index.php
http://goexpowder.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=15
http://groups.msn.com/BPCR/messages.msnw
http://groups.msn.com/Schuetzen/messages.msnw
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/BP-L/
http://bpcr.net/index-a.htm
http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewforum.php?f=35
http://www.wyomingschuetzen.com/
http://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/yabb.pl
http://www.jouster.com/cgi-bin/martini-henry/martini.pl
http://gunboards.com/forums/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=14

[nitroproof]

Craig,

A little correction - it is NOT the sulphur that is corrosive. You need to clean a BP rifle because powder combustion will produce salts as residue that are hygroscopic, and will absorb humidity. And wet residue in contact with bare steel, yes, you guessed it... Nothing to do with the sulphur. You are spot-on about the primers though.

I stand corrected, thanks...

The Sulpher is what gives Holy Black that unique smell. These days I shoot mostly Hodgdon's Pyrodex Select. I have about 5 pounds in my stash. Now that stuff has a stink of it's own :mrgreen:

Pyro stays a bit moister than Goex BP. Someone on this board suggested cleaning cases and wiping the bore with a Murphy's Oil Soap solution. I tried that and it works fantastic.

[Limey]

Buckshot,

You asked :

''I don't know what issues HM troops had at Rourke's Drift, but they sure fired enough ammo!''


....IMHO it was too many Zulu's!........tee hee tee hee!


Thanks to everybody who is contributing to my education, I really appreciate the time you have all taken to share your knowledge and hard won experiences.......especially the positive stuff from 13Echo about not being too anal about the details but to enjoy the bigger experience of BP......I have to admit, the post shooting cleaning rituals are currently very daunting.....how many shots do people typically take before cleaning the barrel?.......I've heard people say between every shot but what can I realisticly expect to do in a 20 shot target match for example?

Here are a couple of my off the wall thoughts to ponder by you BP Guru's......

Anybody tried using soap as a bullet lube either solely or as a high percentage of the lube mix?......should have high cleaning properties when you are swabbing out with a damp patch....I'm probably talking out of my 'trap door' and using soap is useless!....I know that soap is recommended in Felix lube.

I bought my wife one of those cheap, small, electrically heated, pressure steam cleaners that you see being advertised in DIY stores for cleaning curtains, getting stains out of stuff etc etc..... again, from my no experience at all postion as a BP virgin, one of these should be a great cleaning aid.......a good blast of hot, pressurised steam vapaour down the barrel should soften things up nicely!.....anybody tried this out?

Safe shooting

Limey

[wills]

Blow tube between shots, BPCRS match with 10 targets means you will put 10 +sighters through, before clean

[martinibelgian]

A decent load, with blowtube use, will allow you to shoot 30-40-50+ rounds before having to clean - aslong as the barrel doesn't get too hot... No problem there, the major cleanup (of the cases) is only after the shooting is over!

[13Echo]

Limey,

Soap is used in many very good lube recipes. Unfortunately most lubes made with soap have high melting points and do not make a good pan lube. Felix lube is a good example as are the lubes Paul Matthews made. To get started get some SPG or other commercial lube or make your own with beeswax and any of various combinations of animal and/or vegetable oils, esters, waxes, etc. Half and half beeswax and olive oil is good. Look up Emmert's lube. It's another easy one. Some like Emmert's with lanolin substituted for half the Crisco Oil (Dale 53). I'm shooting a lube that is 6parts beeswax to 4parts anhydrous lanolin to 2 parts peanut oil. One of these will get you shooting and you can branch out from there. Lube making can become a consuming passion and the ranks of Lubaholics are steadily increasing.

With a good, clean (clean is a relative term in BPCR) burning load, and proper use of the blow tube many rounds can be fired before having to punch the tube. It gets easy with practice.

Cleaning the rifle does not require steam or fancy solvents or a lot of time. Just water, a few patches, a good cleaning rod, and some good gun oil.

Cleaning the brass is a bit more involved but not difficult. If you can, decap the cases at the range and put them in soapy water. If you can't decap soak them anyway. When you get home pour off the water and rinse in warm water and scrub out each case with a test tube brush to get any stubborn fouling, rinse and let dry. Be certain to decap as soon as you can so the primer pockets get cleaned.

The cases will discolor but that won't affect their usability. If you like them pretty get a tumbler. Do not clean them with anything that contains ammonia - It will weaken the brass.

Jerry Liles

[wills]

You can put a nylon bore brush in a drill to clean the cases.

[montana_charlie]

Anybody tried using soap as a bullet lube either solely or as a high percentage of the lube mix?......I know that soap is recommended in Felix lube.
Felix used Ivory soap in his lube because it is a source of sodium stearate, not because it is 'soap'. People use it to flux lead alloy for the same reason.

Black powder fouling, mixed with the natural oils in bullet lube, contains (essentially) the same ingredients that pioneer women used to make soap. If you let it dry on a patch for a day or two, it turns white and resembles soap more than any other common substance.

All you need to add, for cleaning out powder fouling, is water...and it doesn't need to be hot.

Muzzleloaders like to use hot water because the heat in the steel helps the water evaporate more quickly. With a breechloader, that isn't necessary because you can dry the bore with patches...and can look through it to make sure you got it all.
CM

[uncle joe]

Help!.....I'm a black powder virgin....

I have been shooting smokeless for 30 years and have always cast and reloaded my own.
Anyway, I have just bought my first BP gun....it's a Pedersoli 45/70 Sharps replica and I want to get some BP rounds loaded up and test it.......

My question is.....is it safe to use my Lee powder dumper/measure to dose out the black stuff into the brass?......I do not want to blow the house up!.....if no, what are your suggestions please?

The powder I have bought to start up with is FFg.

Safe shooting

Limey

Limey
I like you started loading smokeless with my dad years ago. Not to long ago a friend introduced me to muzzle loading, this was fun. It was like reloading and shooting wrapped into one. The only thing was when he showed me how to load the thing and said he used 90 grains, I thought he was nuts. I was used to measuring weight CLOSELY, he just dumped a tube full of pyrodex into the barrel and shot it. This worred me so much I e-mailed the people at Hogdon and asked them about it. Mr Hogdon replied saying that I would have to dumb up a little, the 90 grains for blackpowder was a volume thing not weight like I was used to. So I let it go and still think it's fun as heck. I am sure that loading BP in cartridges is different than muzzle loading, but has to be just as much fun. It seems like there are plenty of friends here that know much more about it than me. Just my two cents.:smile:

[Limey]

Hiya Uncle Joe,

It's been a while since I first submited my 'Black Powder Virgin' topic......

....so,in recognition of all the BP shooting, reloading, fun amd reading of these knowlageable Forum members words I now consider myself to be a Black Powder (soiled) virgin now!

But even after such a short time of being a BP shooter I have learnt the following mantra...........

So much to learn

So much to try

So little money to do it all with

So much fun!


Safe shooting


Limey

[Black Prince]

Limey old sport, a lot of jargon goes along with BP shooting just as with smokeless powder. Don't let it discourage you. There is a learning curve associated with all new endevors in life, and BP has one. It is not steep however, or many of us old farts couldn't do it. Once you learn what the jargon means, you'll think to yourself, Hey! I knew that! No big deal. Take the blow tube for example: It is exactly what it says and it's no big deal. It's just something that makes shooting BP easier and helps reduce the requirement for frequent cleaning.

It can be a little intimidating to someone unfamiliar with all of the termonology, but it is not rocket science. Read a little. Shoot a lot. Ask questions here. We all had to go through what you are going through now at one time or another and we understand where you are because we've been there. We've had the same questions. This bunch of guys has the answers and they will help you go into shooting BP about as far as you want to go. Some will even push you further than you want to go, but they always give you a lolly pop when they do that. :)

Once you load and shoot your first batch of BP ammo, you'll feel a lot better about it all. Your rifle and cases are not going to disolve into green goo from the "acid" produced by the BP. You are not going to blow yourself up with an "overload" of BP. There are however, more variables in loading BP than smokeless, but even those are no big deal. They just make it more fun finding out what they are and how to use them.

We are happy that you joined us and WELCOME aboard.

[Limey]

Hey Black Prince,

....many thanks for the warm and BIG welcome!....I really enjoy it here.....so much useful information available......and it's so willing shared to.

Since getting my Pedersoli Sharps '74 reproduction as a Christmas present.....

....(my wife, friends and my parents all chipped in cash and I topped it up to the mark by trading in my Winchester 9422 WMR....still miss that gun though!)....

....I have managed to get to the range 3 times.....the first two visits got my rounds proved and my vernier sight calibrated....the third time was a BP competition....

The rules at the comp were the gun could only be supprted by you.....no rests or sticks.

The first round was at 50 metres....not far but it was shot stood up and off hand.....that 32 inch barrel was getting heavy and wobbly by the end of the string but I managed 74 out of 100.

Next distance was 100 metres and shot prone....managed 77 out of 100

The final distance was 200 metres......well, I just could not co-ordinate pulling the trigger as my sight wobbled to and fro and up and down past the target !....I only managed 44 out of 100.

Pleased to say I was not last and after the shoot was over, (please note after it was over mind!), the other guys decided to tell me l was allowed to use a sling as a shooting aid.......they all had big smiles on their faces as they passed on this pearl of advice!!!.......well, an appropriate BP sling is on order and I will try hard to wipe their smiles off a bit next time.....

Great fun, good company, cheap shooting.....roll on next time

Enjoy the rest of your W/E everybody

Safe shooting

Limey