.380 Ballistic Test

[Hunter]

Just published, thoughts please.

http://rangehot.com/380-auto-ballistic-test/

[rintinglen]

Meh, restating conventional wisdom. The 380 is never going to be a .454 Casull. It is going to be in a small, concealable pistol that is more easily carried. This is not news, Skeeter Skelton and Geaorge Nonte wrote the same stuff back in the 60's and 70's.

[Bret4207]

What Glen said. It's not a 357 Mag, never will be. But I'm darn sure not going to get in front of one.

[Hunter]

Meh, restating conventional wisdom. The 380 is never going to be a .454 Casull. It is going to be in a small, concealable pistol that is more easily carried. This is not news, Skeeter Skelton and Geaorge Nonte wrote the same stuff back in the 60's and 70's.

I will agree except bullet and ammunition technology has changed immensely sine the 70s and even in the past 10 years. That is evident in how the Hydra Shok performed as compared to the Gold Dot and Critical Defense.

[fecmech]

Quite frankly I don't think expansion in the .380 is a good thing. With the size of most people today and the power level of the .380 I think you go for placement and all the penetration you can get. But that's just me.

[Garyshome]

Well smaller bullet means be a better shot. And that means More Range TIme!!!!! Isn't that what we're all about, More excuses to shoot?

[Bzcraig]

Nothing really news or note worthy. I have always believed 380 to be an excellent choice for women.

[JHeath]

Quite frankly I don't think expansion in the .380 is a good thing. With the size of most people today and the power level of the .380 I think you go for placement and all the penetration you can get. But that's just me.

Not just you. Me too.

[FergusonTO35]

Nothing really news or note worthy. I have always believed 380 to be an excellent choice for women.

I think the .380 is a great choice for anyone, 'specially with hard lead boolits. My Kel-Tec PF-9 carry ammo is loaded to hot .380 performance, 122 grain LTC at 950 fps.

[9.3X62AL]

My only surprise in the article text was in seeing the velocity figures from the tested ammunition types--my chronography usually ran about 10%-12% lower than your figures. Those must be good, snug barrels in the test pistols.

The 380 ACP is what it is--a small, light caliber designed for use in diminutive pocket pistols. Not my choice for defensive carry, and I haven't owned one in close to 15 years. The 9mm Makarov helped to evict the caliber from my gun safe and loading bench. It is a far better choice than throwing rocks or dialing 9-1-1, though--and like Bret said, I won't step in front of one, either. :)

The upshot of my old shop's administrative response to HR 218 was to disallow carry of the 9 Mak, but the 380 ACP is still OK. Drat the luck. I haven't been motivated to re-acquire a 380 to adapt to the New Reality, either--just as I don't carry the 9mm owing to its approved ammo type. I just muddle through with the 357 Magnum, 40 Short & Weak, and the 45 Aptly Conclusive Pistol.

[MtGun44]

Good info. Not much different from my testing. I settled on alternating Win FP FMJ and Speer
Gold Dots. Deep - wide - deep - wide . . . . Repeat as necessary.

Bill

[captaint]

I go with straight up Ranch Dogs (100 gr) ?? Nice wide meplat. I'll skip the expansion. Mike

[JakeBlanton]

Quite frankly I don't think expansion in the .380 is a good thing. With the size of most people today and the power level of the .380 I think you go for placement and all the penetration you can get. But that's just me.

A definite argument for carrying .45ACP with RN bullets -- even the largest BG can have an entry and exit hole when you shoot him (from any practical angle).

[JHeath]

A definite argument for carrying .45ACP with RN bullets -- even the largest BG can have an entry and exit hole when you shoot him (from any practical angle).


The only "bad guy" I stopped with a .45 was a badger I wounded from 70' - 80' away in deep grass, with 230 fmj from a Gold Cup. He ran straight at me, I emptied the magazine and he expired 10' - 12' in front of me as the slide locked open at the last round. I found at least 4 and possibly 5 wounds on the body. He was not large for a badger, 20lbs- 25lbs.

That's a single data point, but it left me underwhelmed with the mythical stopping power of the .45. A shot to his peanut-size brain would have stopped him just as well with a .380 as with a .45. Otherwise, he wasn't giving up.

When this happened I was standing next to a hunting partner with a .300 Win. He ran back to the truck without firing a shot when the badger headed toward us. Had it been a brown bear he presumably would have reacted the same or worse, so his rifle was useless.

The lesson I took was:
* vital hits with a small caliber are preferable to non-vital hits with a big caliber
* having a gun you can shoot accurately is preferable to more power, and practice yields more accuracy in a clinch than the tiny margins gained with special grips, bushings, etc.
* the most powerful, accurate gun is useless without the will to stand fast and keep shooting

[freebullet]

A 90ish grain 380 going 900-1000fps will expand & exit the broadside of a large deer. That's a thicker cavity than most all men.

[9.3X62AL]

J Heath--

An occurrence like yours would have thrilled me quite soundly. Badgers are pretty nasty critters. I struggle to discern what your hunt partner was thinking about, given that he was quite well-equipped to assist in dispatching this varmint. I'll bet the drive home afterward was a little tense.

[9.3X62AL]

A 90ish grain 380 going 900-1000fps will expand & exit the broadside of a large deer. That's a thicker cavity than most all men.

I would not expect such an outcome. Have you seen this occur, and/or with repeatability? I've put a Speer 146 grain half-jacket SWCHP through a whitetail doe from close range, but that bullet at 1400 FPS is a much different prospect than a 95 grainer (2/3 the weight) at 2/3 that speed. I'm NOT saying that such a load couldn't or didn't--only that such performance would be outside my assumptions.

[45 2.1]

Ah yes, the 380 ACP.... a weak sister to the 9mm Luger. The basic problem is that it is shot in smaller, light blow back pistols and has little enough powder room for its caliber along with a weakly built case. If it was a good sturdy case out of a locked breach pistol, it could be adequate. As far as solids are concerned (I much prefer my own hollow points thank you), I hope you are a good shot under pressure because you will need to be.

[JHeath]

J Heath--

An occurrence like yours would have thrilled me quite soundly. Badgers are pretty nasty critters. I struggle to discern what your hunt partner was thinking about, given that he was quite well-equipped to assist in dispatching this varmint. I'll bet the drive home afterward was a little tense.

I have pondered what the consequences of failure would be. The badger would start at my ankles and chew my legs off from the bottom up?

My partner who ran was a jumpy Viet Nam vet who experienced things I cannot imagine. I figure if he paid his dues and if he wanted to run from a badger he more than earned the right.

Next time a farmer asks me to cull badgers I'll try a target .380 instead and we'll see if this "accuracy" theory works:

http://www.icollector.com/Browning-Mdl-22-Cal-380-SN-72N23655-Beautiful-semi-auto-target-pistol-Blued-finish-black-checkere_i10373588

[45 2.1]

I have pondered what the consequences of failure would be. The badger would start at my ankles and chew my legs off from the bottom up?
Seriously, did you look at the claws on that badger after you killed it? I have and they are quite fearsome on such a determined animal. Any softer animal taking on a badger is liable to get clawed and bit if not agile enough to out maneuver it.

Next time a farmer asks me to cull badgers I'll try a target .380 instead and we'll see if this "accuracy" theory works: http://www.icollector.com/Browning-Mdl-22-Cal-380-SN-72N23655-Beautiful-semi-auto-target-pistol-Blued-finish-black-checkere_i10373588
Having shot that particular handgun, there are several others its equal or better.... the Husky or the Hi-Standard are better shooters. Any of the heavy framed larger guns are quite accurate.... and a badger is not an animal I want to use a 380 on.

[missionary5155]

Greetings
I grew up in Michigan and heard for years "never mess with a badger". So one day I was walking a trail with a 35 pound pack on my back headed to the campsite way back in the woods. Summer, no gun but a 5 foot walking staff. Came up on a corner that curved to the left. I was looking out to the right into the deep creek cut when I heard a snarly, snappy "growl" to my front. 25 feet away and walking on my path was my first badger. He was getting all scrunched low like he was getting ready to leap. I glanced to my left and saw it was not real steep up the bank. Looked back at "Mr. B" and he was just starting to make his move my way. Decided I had been given great badger advice over the years scampering up that bank to my left as fast as my skinny legs could move me. When I got to a sort of flat about 15 feet up the bank I turned to see what my future held. Down where I just left was ol snarly, snappy Mr. B looking real pleased making sure I knew who was the boss. Off he waddled never even looking back to see if I was a threat.
Yep I am still convinced the badger advice I had heard for all those years was good and sound.
Mike in Peru

[freebullet]

I would not expect such an outcome. Have you seen this occur, and/or with repeatability? I've put a Speer 146 grain half-jacket SWCHP through a whitetail doe from close range, but that bullet at 1400 FPS is a much different prospect than a 95 grainer (2/3 the weight) at 2/3 that speed. I'm NOT saying that such a load couldn't or didn't--only that such performance would be outside my assumptions.

We were taking the young man to get his first turkey. We jumped the deer by accident. He stood up out of some brush, taking us by surprise. Instead of bounding away he lowered his head, the young man had a single shot 20ga. His dad was armed only with a blade. I used the only gun I had. I really though he was gunna come at us, & feared for the young mans safety. I wouldn't hunt much more than small game with a 380 unless It was a last resort.

I used 88gr jhp standard power Remington factory loads. A controlled pair to the broadside. Round one expanded & exited. Round 2 expanded lost a small petal & punched an exit hole, but was still caught on the exterior in the hide & fur. Fired from a p238. We found a broken arrow in him. It went in at his shoulder, deflected & slid between the hide & ribs.

Prior to that experience I wouldn't have thought that performance was attainable from a 380. I'm not saying I wouldn't rather have a 45 of any sort, simply that a 380 is better than nothin & may surprise you. Anyone that believes the little 380 is "obsolete" can volunteer to stand front of one.

The picture doesn't do him justice, he was a big boy. His rack hangs in that youngsters room, along with his first turkey tail he got the same day.
86142

[9.3X62AL]

That is a precious photo.

Well, ya run what ya brung. And it worked out. Surprising, but surprises happen. Thank you for sharing this information--it is VERY interesting.

[1Shirt]

Guess it is my opinion that John Browning never made a looser. Within its limitations and for its size and conc carry convenience that is true of the 380.
1Shirt!

[Garyshome]

Nothing really news or note worthy. I have always believed 380 to be an excellent choice for women. And Pants pockets!

[earplug]

Nothing really news or note worthy. I have always believed 380 to be an excellent choice for women. And Pants pockets!

Friends was telling others that a relative working at a large hospital had more fatal GSW from a 32 auto then a 380. The idea was the 32 FMJ would penetrate better then some HP .380 rounds. It was a interesting observation.

My observation is blow back pistols due to their small size and heavy recoil springs, can be hard to operate for many people with weak or injured fingers and wrists.

[JakeBlanton]

Friends was telling others that a relative working at a large hospital had more fatal GSW from a 32 auto then a 380. The idea was the 32 FMJ would penetrate better then some HP .380 rounds. It was a interesting observation.

My observation is blow back pistols due to their small size and heavy recoil springs, can be hard to operate for many people with weak or injured fingers and wrists.

There's also the .327 Federal Magnum round, but other than revolvers, it doesn't seem to be used much. Even in revolvers, it's not that common on a round.