old 45 colt mystery gun

[6bg6ga]

It was my fathers old .454 45 long colt that was made from the guts of two guns. He has since passed away so I cannot ask him now for any information about the gun. I remember shooting it several times and it was quite accurate. To make a long story short a spring broke inside it and I was wondering if anyone could recognize what it might be. I remember that the cylinder was from a different gun.
Any help would be appreciated and more pictures to follow.855328553385534

[flounderman]

possibly a great western sold by hy hunter. also sold kits. probably German made

[6bg6ga]

Just took it apart and it has a Colt trigger. Could it possibly be part Colt single action and part Great western? Look just like a colt with the exception of the lack of serial numbers. Must be GW wit hsome colt parts in it. Is it worth saving?

[w5pv]

It kindle looks like a S&W model 31,look at the hinge where the cylinder rolls out and the model number will be on the hinge part.You may need a good light and a magnifying glass to see it good luck.

[Dan Cash]

Colt or Colt clone springs should work unless the gun is fitted with a bunch of wire springs. For the price of a spring, yes, save it.

[6bg6ga]

Ok, took it apart has some numbers shows GWand then a number. The hammer has a colt horse on it. The cylinder doesn't slide out. There is a door that opens and you move it to load the cylinder and it has a number 696 on it. The cylinder has a crest of some sort and three letters of which I cannot make out completely. Looks like ?SF maybe PSF Was told that a spring busted but it looks like the piece that locks up the bottom of the cylinder is missing a side of it. Has like two fingers on it that look to go in an indent in the cylinder.

[6bg6ga]

Sorry I don't know anything about old wheel guns85539

[6bg6ga]

85540

[bhn22]

Here you go... http://www.gunsprings.com/index.cfm?page=items&cID=3&mID=1&dID=96

[MtGun44]

Great Western was a good quality Colt SAA clone. That part is the cylinder bolt,
apparently there is a spring broken too. Here is a place where you
can get the bolt and the spring for it, which has two leafs and is made of flat sheet
steel.

http://www.coltparts.com/pix_saa1early.jpg

http://www.coltparts.com/pt_saa1late.html

Look at part 16 for the broken bolt and 17 for the spring. This is a quality
gun and well worth fixing. Where are you located? How handy are you, it
is very possible that the bolt and spring will just drop in and work fine, but the
bolt may require a bit of fitting which can be a little bit tricky. If you will go slowly
with a fine cut file, a handy person can do it, but some folks should have a REAL
gunsmith do it. You will know your own abilities, I'm sure.

Bill

[6bg6ga]

Bill,

you have certainly shed light on the problem. Part #16 is broken the part 17 seems to look ok but I may be mistaken.

PM to follow

[DougGuy]

I would invest in the parts and send it to a decent pistolsmith that knows their way around an old Colt SAA and has been around long enough to know the tricks of those old guns. Two smiths that fit that description and aren't terribly expensive or backed up would be Alan Harton and John Gallagher. They might even have the parts in stock.. I would check with them even before ordering parts.

Contact Alan Harton by telephone at: 713-772-8314 or 713-907-6031. email: aharton@hotmail.com.

http://www.gallagherfirearms.com/default.asp?page=3

The finish on it is perhaps the coolest thing about it, gotta love that gray patina, a lot of the western movies used guns exactly like that one, with honest wear on it..

[w5pv]

It kindle looks like a S&W model 31,look at the hinge where the cylinder rolls out and the model number will be on the hinge part.You may need a good light and a magnifying glass to see it good luck.
Boy the sun is bright, once I got my head where it was suppose to be.I was thinking S&W not Colt.

[Larry Gibson]

Great Western was a good quality Colt SAA clone...........This is a quality
gun and well worth fixing............ but some folks should have a REAL
gunsmith do it. You will know your own abilities, I'm sure.

Bill

Agree with Bill, that revolver is well worth fixing/saving.

Larry Gibson

[McLintock]

There's an article in the latest issue of Handloader Magazine by Brian Pearce, on the Great Western guns, if you want to know more about them get a copy; this issue has Part 1 and the next issue Part 2, so a lengthy article. He says they were all USA made and very good guns, used a lot in the TV Westerns of the '50's and '60's, and by fast draw guys in the day. Well worth resurrecting.
McLintock

[6bg6ga]

Ok, been on line looking for more info on this gun. Have come up with the following. The original Great Western Guns WERE made here in Cal and not overseas. Dad always thought the cylinder had been replaced on this gun but inspection proves its a GW cylinder. Also the hammer with the colt emblem can into play. Well, the early roughly 300 units came out with a Colt hammer in them. After that they had the internal firing pin. Later in production toward the end they offered the gun with a $8.00 upgrade to the Colt hammer. This gun is serial #106 The first ones weren't kit guns.
John Wayne was one of the original investers in the GW company. Well, it ain't pretty but I'm still going to fix it. After starting this today I have printed out a bunch of info to stuff into a notebook.

[flounderman]

If memory serves me right there was a test where they tried to blow one up and they couldn't hurt it.

[Dutchman]

Late production Great Western .44 Magnum. Other than the weird hammer shape the frame mounted firing pin was superior to the ancient Colt design. I think the serial number on this was in the range of 17,xxx. Like many (many!) guns of the past I'm sorry I let this one go.

http://images19.fotki.com/v327/photos/2/28344/157842/gw3-vi.jpg

http://images62.fotki.com/v1312/photos/2/28344/157842/gw2-vi.jpg

[Sax.45]

Very nice 6 shooter you have there, If I were you I would fix it. I would think it has high sentimental value to you, Fix it, shoot it and never sell it.;)

[6bg6ga]

I ordered my parts today so I should have it working before too long.

[MtGun44]

Good. Update us when you have it going.

Bill

[6bg6ga]

I'd like to point out that I received what I feel is the very best in the way of parts suppliers for this SAA clone from Bill. Bill suggested that I order my parts from the folks at Brownells and I did just that. I need to point out to those reading this that I could not have been more happy with their service. They had exactly what I needed. They packed it up great and had it to my door in one day. Now, you simply cannot beat that. I expected to pay Iowa sales tax and that was no surprise and the shipping cost was by far less than other firms.

I suggest that if your needing parts give the folks at Brownells. Inc a try and you will also be happy with their service.

[6bg6ga]

I hope to start working on this old girl this week. I need to make an alignment tool to align the cylinder to the barrel so I can fit the new bolt with + or minus .001 or less. I think that will work fine because the forcing cone will help matters there.

[6bg6ga]

I have gotten several emails with the senders thinking that the Great Western Guns were manufactured in Germany. That simply isn't true period.

The man responsible for the great western is William R. Wilson. Wilson approached Colt in 1953 and asked if it planned to resurrect the SAA. Colt said the SAA was done.

Wilson returned to Los Angeles where he enlisted partners one of which was John Wayne. Wilson enlisted Hy Hunter of Hollywood to handle marketing and distribution. Hunter in addition to his interest in Great Western handled a West German knockoff that looked like the Great Western which makes people think the Great Western line was imported.

It wasn't. ALL GREAT WESTERN ARMS Co. guns were manufactured in Los Angeles.

In about 1959 EMF purchased what was left of the Great Western Arms Co. EMF still retains Great Western as a registered brand name. In 2004 EMF announced a new Great Western II that is made in Italy by Pietta.

Nothing was ever made in Germany by Great Western. It was only in 2004 that the production of the second generation was made in Italy.

This information is available at http://www.gundigest.com/collecting-the-first-colt-clone and http://www.gundigest.com/collecting-the-first-colt-clone/2

[Bent Ramrod]

There is a Great Western collectors' website out there: http://www.greatwesternarmscollector.com/

They might be able to sort out what parts are original and which came later.

Supposedly, original Colt first generation parts and the Great Western parts would interchange with the usual minor fitting.

Get Kuhnhausen's book on Colt SA's. His pictures and descriptions of setting up and timing Colt SA revolvers are so clear even I didn't have too much trouble.

[6bg6ga]

I was originally mistaken about the gun possibly being a mixed bag of parts because of what Dad thought when he was alive. The gun serial number 106 is 100% Great Western. Yes, you are correct in the Colt parts will fit with the usual minor fitting. Thanks, I did purchase Jerry Kuhnhausen's book
"The Cost Single Action Revolvers" A Shop Manual, Volumes 1&2

As SN 106 it contains an original Colt hammer which was an option on later Great Western Revolvers. I will check out the website.

[MtGun44]

With Kuhnhausen's books and some care, you can do the fix just right.

You'll have that old girl back in business in no time.

Bill

[John Allen]

Here is another possible. I got this from a guntrader site I saw it on today. it looks just like yours

Hawes 44mag by jp sauer & sons

86476

[MtGun44]

"another possible" ??

The gun has been identified as a Great Western, AFAIK there is no connection
to a Hawes.

Bill

[6bg6ga]

As Bill has mentioned the gun is a Great Western 45 as noted by the Great Western name on the barrel as well as the GW serial number and GW stamp on the cylinder. I do appreciate your willingness to help...thanks.

I believe I have mentioned that I obtained a new bolt from the good folks at Brownells and it will require some hand fitting. I must first make a alignment gauge to go down the barrel or remove the barrel completely and make an adapter to screw in and an alignment rod to maintain a perfect alignment of the cylinder assembly. Now, being that I have experience along this line please do not worry as I can do this. There is no need for me to obtain the help of a gunsmith. I did purchase the $35.00 manual written by Jerry Kuhnhausen which gives me all the specifications I will need to do this correctly. Being that I like free turning brass I will obtain some nice yellow stuff and proceed to do the deed.

Keep the info flowing guys as I need the encouragement to do this even thou I have the tallent to do this.

[6bg6ga]

I did apply to the greatwesternarmscollector.com forum and received an email this morning requesting information on myself as well as information on my collecting I think. Seems like a lot of questions to gain entry to a forum. Maybe I will make it...just squeek by.

[Combat Diver]

6bg6ga,

Sounds like your on the way to get her fixed up. Keep us updated and enjoy shooting her when done.


CD

[theperfessor]

I'm not really a fan of SA revolvers but given the history of this one I'm interested in seeing the progress reports. What a great background story!

[McLintock]

The new Handloader Mag came yesterday, with the second part of the Great Western story, bet he got his info from the Gun Digest article you mentioned above.
McLintock

[6bg6ga]

After reading the article I'm not really seeing anything new in the way of information. I did join the Great Western forum but I soon found it to be a buddy buddy type little club. I've since deleted my posts and pictures after having a post removed/deleted. It would seem they don't want any new blood there just the old timers. I'm old but not old enough I guess.

[6bg6ga]

Those of you that have replaced the broken bolt in your Colt or Clone did you remove the barrel and make an alignment tool or did you make an alignment tool to go down the barrel? No, I'm not going to take it to a gun smith either. Just looking at options before I start on this.

I think I will send it out to be polished and re-blued after I get it working again as a tribute to my dad.

[6bg6ga]

Great Western was a good quality Colt SAA clone. That part is the cylinder bolt,
apparently there is a spring broken too. Here is a place where you
can get the bolt and the spring for it, which has two leafs and is made of flat sheet
steel.

http://www.coltparts.com/pix_saa1early.jpg

http://www.coltparts.com/pt_saa1late.html

Look at part 16 for the broken bolt and 17 for the spring. This is a quality
gun and well worth fixing. Where are you located? How handy are you, it
is very possible that the bolt and spring will just drop in and work fine, but the
bolt may require a bit of fitting which can be a little bit tricky. If you will go slowly
with a fine cut file, a handy person can do it, but some folks should have a REAL
gunsmith do it. You will know your own abilities, I'm sure.

Bill

I have been putting this project off for a long time now. Today with a gleem in my eye I tackled the project of hand fitting a new lock up bolt assembly in this old Great Western Gun. I went slowly like Bill told me to do and after several tries I have it fit perfectly and again ready for enjoyment.

A special thanks to Bill for the encouragement because without it I probably would have left it apart in pieces in a box. Everything is aligned and now all I have to worry about it finding some 45LC brass and rounding up a mold or purchasing a few bullets. This 60 year old gun lives again.

[Dale53]

I just checked out Starline Brass - they are out of stock on .45 Colt and "no backorders". However, you just need to keep watching as this can change from day to day. When they start allowing back orders on this caliber (and they will) immediately put in your order as that seems to cause things to happen more quickly. Their brass is as good as it gets and buying from them direct will save a good bit of change (all of their prices include shipping). They have been my source for brass in several calibers for many years.

FWIW
Dale53

[6bg6ga]

I just checked out Starline Brass - they are out of stock on .45 Colt and "no backorders". However, you just need to keep watching as this can change from day to day. When they start allowing back orders on this caliber (and they will) immediately put in your order as that seems to cause things to happen more quickly. Their brass is as good as it gets and buying from them direct will save a good bit of change (all of their prices include shipping). They have been my source for brass in several calibers for many years.

FWIW
Dale53


Thanks Dale I'll give them a try.

[MtGun44]

Well, sounds great! I'm very happy to have assisted in getting that old girl back in
action. I have had particularly good results with the Keith 454424 and RCBS 'Keiths' under about
7 grains of W231, I load a bit more in my Rugers, but I'd stop at 7.1 as what the Hodgdon manual says is
OK for normal .45 Colt loads. Another good one is 9-9.5 grains of Unique under the same
boolit.

If you can drive a soft slug thru the throat (front of the DISMOUNTED) cylinder and measure
it with a micrometer, send me the dimension soI can make up some boolits for you to try in the old
girl. Sizing to throat diameter is the way to get best accy out of revolvers.

Did you know that the SAA the John Wayne used in many of his later movies was a personally owned
Great Western?

Bill

[6bg6ga]

Bill,

Yes, I did some investigation and found out that John Wayne and Audie Murphy actually were investers in the Great Western Company. Yes, your correct as he did use a Great Western in his later movies. The gun I have is serial 106 which makes it real early in the production line. Dad used .454 sized bullets in her and she never leaded and was a nail driver.

Dad used 9gr of unique in her and believe it or not she shot 2" or less groups using a light grip. If I held her loose in my hand she hit where I aimed and if I tightened my grip she pulled. Now, to hunt down a mold for the Ballisti-cast Mark IV and a new sizing die for the Star sizer.

[6bg6ga]

The Shootist in 1976 Wayne used a Great Western 45 colt.

Now to try to hunt up some brass and some bullets to test the old girl.

As the first Colt Clone made in 1953 I owed it to both Dad and the history of this old gun to get her working again. Having the low serial number

between GW1 and GW150 it puts her squarely in the 1953 early production area.

[MtGun44]

Let me know if I can help.

Bill

[gandydancer]

The Shootist in 1976 Wayne used a Great Western 45 colt.

Now to try to hunt up some brass and some bullets to test the old girl.

As the first Colt Clone made in 1953 I owed it to both Dad and the history of this old gun to get her working again. Having the low serial number

between GW1 and GW150 it puts her squarely in the 1953 early production area.

very true. it was the engraved one. in the barroom shoot out JW had two revolvers on him. a colt in his holster and the great western tucked in the front of his pants. Also Matt Dillon drew a great western 7.5" 45 colt against arvo ojala for 20 years on Gunsmoke.

[CLAYPOOL]

I would wait on the refinishing for a bit. What's there now is from your dad and others who have handled it over the years. You ought to see my dads Model 12. It would be classed as wore out, inside and out. You can do what I have and bragged on what it has done to look like it has had a fine life in the field. I own a few other shot guns to use including a Beretta Extreme 2, but its a whole nother story.

[6bg6ga]

Forgot to mention it works now101101

[6bg6ga]

Here is another possible. I got this from a guntrader site I saw it on today. it looks just like yours

Hawes 44mag by jp sauer & sons

86476

This is a nice looking gun. I recently picked up one just like it in 357 mag and if I could find one in 45 LC I would buy it.

[MtGun44]

Good to hear it is working now. How does it shoot?

Bill

[6bg6ga]

I haven't shot it yet. Its been too cold to do so but I plan on it soon. I understand now what Elmer Keith meant when he spoke of poor quality. The gun has problems with poor fit that needed addressed. The cylinder pin was extremely hard to get out and required some proper fitting. The hand assembly ( I hope I have the correct name) seemed to make the cylinder overshoot and I filed it slightly to get rid of the problem. It locks up correctly and seems to work dry fire correctly.

I got it running as a keep sake that I will shoot on occasion.

[MtGun44]

Please report after you test it. Seems like a nice old pistol.

Bill

[6bg6ga]

Good to hear it is working now. How does it shoot?

Bill

It shoots good

[9.3X62AL]

THAT is what I was waiting to hear! I have some of Dad's (and Great-Grandpa's) firearms that I take afield or to the range. Very special times with my ancestors' tools.

[doc1876]

Gentlemen,
I have to help chime in here. The Great Westerns (2) that John Wayne used in the Shootist were a pair of engraved ones that were presented to him in the 50's from the factory. He did use both of them in the Shootist, and there is a good article in I think Guns of the old west mag. Now that being said, I know that there is an article in GOWS by Bob "Jayhawker" Argonbright on the Great Western. He is an authority on these guns, and the story of the factory's failure is very sad. Bob and I shoot together on a regular basis, and he loves to talk these subjects. I just for what ever reason can't get any pics loaded up on this forums lately, but if you go here you will see the guns:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?16245-John-Wayne-Items,