Marlin 336 30-30 reloading need help!

[slips73]

Ok so i got a problem approximately 50% of the rounds i make wont fit in my chamber, I am going to do this via pictures i took so bear with me. (PS: I am using a lee loader)

1st step. )

I take my deprimed and cleaned brass and prime it and resize the case mouth. It looks like this, neck sizes and all the brass cycles fine through the rifle.

http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz185/adamdoiron/DSC01989_zps7f9fe3d2.jpg (http://s826.photobucket.com/user/adamdoiron/media/DSC01989_zps7f9fe3d2.jpg.html)

Step 2.) This is were i ran into problems originally, I wasnt think and wasnt belling the case mouth for my cast bullets so the neck was bulging, ok those i separated (about 4) So after finding my case mouth widening tool I widen them like this. (yah im probably widening to much and will wear out the mouth but its all i got right now.)


http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz185/adamdoiron/DSC01988_zpsadb26355.jpg (http://s826.photobucket.com/user/adamdoiron/media/DSC01988_zpsadb26355.jpg.html)

Next step.) Now that it is no longer shaving lead I proceed to load powder charge and seat bullet.
My problem arises when the bullet is seated, if it looks like the first picture it usually works and seats in the chamber ok.

http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz185/adamdoiron/DSC01982_zps42c3a105.jpg (http://s826.photobucket.com/user/adamdoiron/media/DSC01982_zps42c3a105.jpg.html)

BUT if it looks like this it will not work and gets stuck midway into the chamber.

http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz185/adamdoiron/DSC01984_zpsf6b41d37.jpg (http://s826.photobucket.com/user/adamdoiron/media/DSC01984_zpsf6b41d37.jpg.html)

and this is as far as the lever goes.

http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz185/adamdoiron/DSC01987_zps4bfe2e59.jpg (http://s826.photobucket.com/user/adamdoiron/media/DSC01987_zps4bfe2e59.jpg.html)


continued....

[slips73]

There is something i noticed though, some of them if i try again will work but they come out with what i believe is rifling imprints on the bullet like the picture below, this lead me to theory B, described below, and no i dont have many tools to size bullets I bought these (250) of midwayusa.
http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz185/adamdoiron/DSC01981_zps411d76f0.jpg (http://s826.photobucket.com/user/adamdoiron/media/DSC01981_zps411d76f0.jpg.html)



So here is where i am at. two theories.

A.) The crimps are too hard on some and bulge behind the bullet making it unchamberable. ( I have about 13 like that wont chamber)
-the problem with this is some of them when measured have no crimp and dont chamber where as one has a crimp and will chamber.

B.) and i think this is more probable, the bullets are .311 diameter, now I always heard that marlins w/ microgroove have a larger chamber so i went with the .311 bullets over .309, is this my problem? If so why do some of them fit (roughly 15 of them fit fine)
-I am thinking that the bullet being to large, expands the brass neck on my already assumed tight chamber and it wont chamber or it wont seat in the chamber because the bullet di. is too large.

i am quite stuck as you can tell. any help is appreciated, thanks

-Adam


I also checked OAL between a cartridge that fits and doesnt fit, both 2.49" and rest of specs line up or just under factory specs. ASIDE FROM bullet diameter...is this my issue?

[sparky45]

Did you check the brass length? Maybe they need to be trimmed.

[slips73]

Did you check the brass length? Maybe they need to be trimmed.

Posted this a few different forums and general consensus seems to be the bullets are the problem. .311 diameter along with the shape.

[btroj]

Your crimp is excessive. It can bulge the neck below the crimp leading to difficult, or impossible, clambering.

Try a round with no crimp or just enough o remove the expansion of the mouth create dr o ease seating. It that round chambers then you know the answer.

The bullet can touch the lands and still function. If it is lightly engraved and the lever closes with a reasonable effort then load and shoot away. If the engraving is enough to make closing the lever difficult I would try a different alloy that could cast a tiny bit smaller or change bullets.

First issue is to identify exactly what your problem is. One thing I use at times is to color the neck and bullet of a loaded round with a Sharpie marker. It helps show exactly where contact is occurring.

[Win94ae]

B.) and i think this is more probable, the bullets are .311 diameter, now I always heard that marlins w/ microgroove have a larger chamber so i went with the .311 bullets over .309, is this my problem? If so why do some of them fit (roughly 15 of them fit fine)
That is the problem. I suspect some do chamber because the quality control of those bullets aren't up to par.

But...
Your bell is way too much, as well as your crimp. I bell mine so slightly that I can't tell it is belled with my naked eye. With the crimp, I barely notice there is one.

I use the Lee 150gr FN (Lee C309-150-F) which is the same shape as that bullet; it works wonderfully!

[sparky45]

What did the bore slug out to be? My 336 slugged at .309 on the button. I routinely use .311 cast without any problems. I do use a Lee FCD and just snug the case mouth closed. I'm thinking now (since you already checked the case length) that the shape of the cast bullet is the problem.

[Win94ae]

Not to say that your cases could be in needing of the shoulder bumped back some. But the bullets are a problem, which is in need of addressing.

[Bullshop Junior]

The bullet is hitting rifling for sure. Wondering is fine half of them
Chamber and half don't....is it a two cavity mold? Possible that one cavity is a little
Larger then the other.

[Bullshop Junior]

The bullet is hitting rifling for sure. Wondering is fine half of them
Chamber and half don't....is it a two cavity mold? Possible that one cavity is a little
Larger then the other.

[YunGun]

As you mentioned, many people (including myself) find better results with wider bullets in the microgroove barrels; mine definitely prefers .311 over .309. Because most sizing dies are spec'd for jacketed bullets, they will typically resize the neck to ~.307 which will make for a tight fit with .311 dia. bullets & can lead to the neck bulges you mentioned when seating or crimping (HIGHLY recommend a Lyman "M" Neck expanding die), but I'm not convinced that's whats preventing those rounds from chambering.

I can't really make out any difference between the third picture (round that chambers) & the fourth picture (round that doesn't chamber); they both look pretty good to me. However, I can tell you that your picture of the lever shows it in almost the exact same position that I encounter stiffness in closing the lever due to my boolits engraving into the rifling. Since my cast boolits for this rifle are pretty hard it takes a fair amount of force to close the lever & engrave the nose into the rifling, but results in some pretty darn good accuracy so I deal with it.

The last picture isn't the clearest but it certainly does appear to show signs of engraving from the rifling, which isn't really a problem & many even find desirable, although this can definitely lead to stiff closing of the lever. Since these are commercially bought cast bullets I'd bet they're pretty hard which may contribute to the difficulty.

Try taking one of your rounds that won't chamber & blacken it with a sharpie, then try chambering it again & check to see if any of the black is scratched off on the brass, indicating that the case wasn't fully resized. If that doesn't seem to be the issue try seating the bullet just a little bit deeper in one of the problem rounds, then see if it will chamber more easily. You might also just try cranking down on the lever on one that's difficult to chamber & see if it really is just biting into the rifling as I suspect; If that's the case (& you consider it a problem), likely your only options will be to change to a narrower bullet nose profile or seat them deeper than the crimp groove.

[Echd]

I sometimes use the expander ball from my 7.62x39 dies on fatter bullets in my .30-30. If you have the option also try sizing to .310.

I have had good results in different guns ranging from 309 to 311, but I have been told marlins enjoy fatter pills, esp. if microgroove.

[rintinglen]

I had the same problem with my 30-30's and the Lee Loader. It is very difficult to crimp consistently when you are pounding on a holder with a hammer. Do yourself a favor and spend about 60 bucks. Right now Midway has Lee die sets for 30-30 on sale 27.99, including shell holder and factory crimp die. Order a set and the Lee Hand press, or their single stage press. Either will run you about 30 bucks. The FCD will eliminate your crimping problems. The press will eliminate the banging. You'll be glad you did.

[btroj]

Guys, sizing diameter isn't the reason the NOSE is engraving the rifling. The nose is far smaller than even .309. The nose is more likely .301 or smaller.

The body diameter is NOT the same as the nose diameter on a bore ride bullet like shown.

Nose size dies do exist or can be made, these let you make the nose diameter fit your bore.

[Garyshome]

Did you check COL? Might be a bit long?

[btroj]

Too long total cartridge length wouldn't lead to this problem, in a Marlin it would cause the bullet nose to hang up between the magazine and chamber and wedge there. That assumes it wasn't too long to get out of the magazine fully.

[sparkz]

What is your OAL loaded?
What is the Brass trimmed to?
do you Chamfer the brass to help the boolit NOT shear off?
your really opening up that bell on brass and them crimping crazy hard IMO,,
I size to 309, but just got a 310, so il try to see what I have,,
your loaded shell looks to long to me, rifle imprints a lot!

I have and load for a 336 and have not had those issues I use a lyman book for specs and stick to them

Hope some of this helps you

Patrick

[sparky45]

Respectfully btroj; the Nose of the cast bullet ISN'T engraving on the rifling, it's way behind the Nose and within a mm of the rim(ridge) of the crimp groove. At least that's what it looks like to me. Are the cast bullets concentric?

[RickinTN]

Respectfully btroj; the Nose of the cast bullet ISN'T engraving on the rifling, it's way behind the Nose and within a mm of the rim(ridge) of the crimp groove. At least that's what it looks like to me. Are the cast bullets concentric?

Anything in front of the front driving band of the bullet is the "nose", and the nose is engraving the rifling. Marlins have little to no throat. My bet is that there is excessive crimp which is bulging the case mouth just behind the crimp and the diameter of the loaded round is larger than the throat on the rifle. The engraving of the nose will cause some resistance but can also lead to excellent accuracy.
Rick

[btroj]

Ok, the portion forward of the front driving band is the nose of the bullet. This is a bore riding nose, it is designed to ride on top of the lands, hence the name.
The portion of the bullet forward of driving bands, or fully diameter body, is considered the nose of the bullet.

This area is NOT sized by any normal sizing device. In general this part of the bullet has a diameter determined only by the dimensions of the mould and the alloy used.

[MBTcustom]

I think you have two problems going on, and it would be easy to debunk/prove either of my theories.
I see that the neck comes to the same place on both cartridges shown, indicating to me that your COL is pretty close on both samples.
I see that the rifling engraving has a part line going right through it, so you're mold blocks were closed properly when the boolit was cast, indicating that it's probably pretty round.

I suspect that you have brass that is too long. This can be checked by measuring your brass and making sure it's all under 2.039
If that checks out, take and seat a boolit in a dummy cartridge and do not crimp it. Take a sharpie marker and paint the neck and the part of the boolit that sticks out of the brass. Cover it with black.
Slip it into the chamber and close the lever gently. If at any time you feel resistance (other than the extractor snapping over the rim), carefully extract it and observe where the contact areas are.
Take a picture of the position of the lever when it met with resistance, and take a picture of the cartridge showing the marks, and post it up here. We can guide you better from there.
I am subscribed to this thread and I will know immediately when you post.

[btroj]

Those Sharpies are awesome tools for figuring out what is binding, and where it is hitting. I use them a lot for just that purpose Tim.

[sparky45]

My bad, I have revised my terminology. OP still hasn't confirmed the case size in or out of spec. which gets me back to my original post stating that possibly the brass needs trimming.

[TXGunNut]

I'm thinking a big part of the problem is case length, as others have pointed out. Inconsistent case length will lead to inconsistent crimps. If you set the crimp properly on a short case you'll overcrimp a long case. I've found lots of 30-30 brass, mostly once-fired range pickups, to vary widely in length. I trim them all to produce a more uniform load and keep an eye on them, they often need trimming again after 2-3 firings.
I've also discovered that RCBS Cowboy dies have a very good expander die in them, they also don't size the neck excessively. The expander is essentially a Lyman M type die, if the expander included with the set doesn't work you can order another from BACO or Lyman, it'll screw right into the RCBS body.

[aspangler]

Case length and excessive crimp. Get a set of dies and a Lee press and trim your brass. My 336 shots the Lee c309-150-f just fine.

[catboat]

1). I agree with the poster who stated about the NOSE diameter being a concern (too large). The long rifling engagement picture the OP posted tells me it's just not a case being too long. If there was just a touch of rifling engagement on the nose of the bullet, I would think case length would be a leading option to correct problem. The LONG rifling engagement (and the bolt/lever isn't even fully closed, idicates to me that it the nose diameter is a big concern. Take a reading of the nose diameter. I'm trying to remember what issues make the bullet (particularly the nose) diameter smaller... hotter casting temps, softer alloy?

2) the empty, resized case itself chambered-reports the O.P. (original poster). My first concern was that a Lee hand sizer does not full length resize. It just neck sizes. Since the OP said the sized, unloaded cases chambered fine, then I take the case condition (including case length) out of "possible way to correct."

3). You have a multi-cavity mold. Measure the bore and nose diameter of bullets from each cavity. If one cavity has a smaller nose diameter (~ .299" vs. .301") dummy load 5 rounds of each "big diameter nosed" and "small diameter nosed" bullets. Keep them separate and chamber each grouping. If one group chambers easily, and the other does not, then you have found the problem. Might be time to return a mold, and get a replacement.

4). I agree with an earlier poster about getting a Lee Hand Press and a set of dies. I started with a Lee loader (in 30-30 for my Marlin). It's fun, and you can produce good ammo inexpensively. The problem is that you just have so much more control of case conditioning with a simple hand press and dies. Especially when you are loading for a lever action, you want the cases to chamber easily. Your cases do now, but someday they may not-complicating things. If you can afford the Lee hand press and dies (with primer seater), I'd recommend it. If not, try to find a friend who has a press with 30-30 dies, and ask him to run them through the full length sizing die for you-just to make sure chambering is easy. Again, I understand you said the emty cases chamber fine. Just thinking down the road for you (and spending your money).

The heavy engraving on the bore-riding section of the nose, NOT the .311" bullet diameter, is the area I would focus my attention for finding the solution. Do you have another suitable mold, or know someone who does, so you can test a smaller diameter nose section (ie. ~ .300") for chambering?

What bullet mold are you using (I presume you are casting your own bullets, but I may have missed that part-unless you are loading commercially cast bullets)? You stated "...about 50% of my loads don't chamber...". If you have a 2 cavity mold, and "about half" of the loaded rounds don't chamber, it would be a big clue that one of your cavities has a larger nose diameter, and may be "out of spec."

What mold are you using (if you are casting)? How many cavities does it have? What is your alloy? I think I read that you bought 250 cast bullets from Midway? Maybe the mold used to cast has a variance. Measure both the body diameter and nose diameter. If commercially cast, record diameters of nose/body, and keep separate until you find 5 or so "small nose diameter" and 5 or so "large nose diameter" bullets-and the the dummy loading to check chambering.

I agree with earlier posters that it could be a good thing to reduce the amount of mouth flare, and sizing. Measure the case neck diameters of the loaded rounds that do not chamber (in several places, ie, "near the shoulder", in the middle of the neck" and "near the mouth".) Compare these loaded neck diameters to a loaded round that does fit (and also it's bullet's nose diameter of each). You could have two issue going on: bullet's nose diameter being too big (causing excessive rifling engraving), and a slightly bulged case neck from excess crimping.

Good luck. Be patient.

[popper]

Way too much crimp. Seat deeper to just not engrave, if possible. A hard jacking round is hard on the lever. Lee loader neck sizes and you will eventually need to FL size. If you are going to shoot much, get a bench press, Lyman 31R M die, lee FCD, any FL sizer & seater. .311 works fine.

[blixen]

I'm still a beginner at reloading and casting, but I have some real world experience with your troubles. I shoot .311 sized Lee 185 grain ".303 British" through my Marlin 336 with good accuracy. I struggled with same issues that you did. Finally, I seated the boolits way, way down in the brass. Overall case length of 2.39. The gas check is way under the neck. At first it concerned me, but I'm getting good accuracy. I don't crimp at all--the tight fit in the neck seems to be fine and I never load more than 2 rounds in the tube -- usually one in the chamber and a second in the tube--which could be a drawback for some people.
BTW--I use light loads of 2400 and Red Dot with this bullet.

[geargnasher]

Obviously a bunch of overcrimping resulting in neck buckling behind the crimp is causing some of them to not chamber, trimming all the brass to uniform length and seating in one step, adjusting the Lee loader and crimping properly in a separate operation will fix that.

Inconsistent boolit nose diameter due to poor mould handling techniques (not getting the blocks shut totally every single cast) can cause binding as well as was mentioned.

Case mouth binding in the chamber due to excessive length is not possible in a Marlin chamber. If you don't know what a .336, .30-30 chamber has looked like since 1955 you oughn't be giving advice on this thread.

Driving bands on some boolits can be too fat resulting in excessive loaded case neck diameter if the boolits aren't properly sized, or the chamber neck is tight, the LOADED diameter can be too large resulting in not only difficult/impossible chambering, but possibly a dangerous pressure condition due to pinching the neck between chamber neck wall and boolit. I think this least likely if the boolits have all been sized .311", but I didn't note any information on how they were actually sized or not when skimming the posts. Most Marlins I've seen will not safely chamber and fire a .313" or larger boolit, but will do fine with a .312" one and most factory "Remchester" brass.

Best tool is a micrometer and pound cast to compare to the dimensions of loaded ammo, failing that a good coat of match or candle smoke will show interference points. Sometimes a permanent marker doesn't witness easily, especially on light interference points.

Gear

[blixen]

Thanks, folks. This thread has been very informative for me in sussing out what's going on in those chambers--esp. Gear's comments. I have a couple rifles that give me fits with chambering--a sav.340 30-30 that has a .310 bore but has a chamber so tight that .311s sometimes won't fit, and an Arisaka 7.7 rechambered to .300 savage that has a similar issue. (Love mybattered old Win. 94--it chambers up to .313 but shoots .311 accurately.)

[geargnasher]

Might be time for a good set of RCBS Cowboy .30-30 dies and a Lee hand press if you don't have a regular press. The Lee case trimmer and cutter/lock stud combo is a very good option for uniforming case length cheaply (ten bucks or so for one caliber) as long as you don't plan to do hundreds or have arthritis. Invest in a VLD inside chamfer tool as well, and the Lee .30-30 factory crimp die is a very good, inexpensive tool that makes consistent crimps for tube magazines a breeze. You can get the proper RCBS neck expander/belling spuds for the universal cast bullet expanding die body to give exactly the correct neck tension for each of your rifles with the particular size of boolit each likes best (ex: .309", .310", .311", get one that's .001-2" smaller than your boolit size).

Generally, try to use the largest cast boolit that will safely chamber and not shave lead in the throat. Better accuracy and less leading that way.

Gear

[myg30]

What Boolit is that you bought from midway ? Part number of description ?

Mike

[fatnhappy]

Your crimp is excessive.

BTROJ is all over it. By the looks of the round that won't chamber it appears the case mouth below the crimp groove is buckled outward slightly from excessive crimp. It also appears as though the crimp caught the first band instead of the groove (which can be inconsistent case length or excessive crimp.)

Back the crimp off. Just kiss the mouth.

[Wayne Smith]

If you get the VLD inside chamfer tool I would suggest you get the Lyman case conditioning set as well. You will eventually use most if not all of it, they are inexpensive, and the tools slip into your electric screwdriver to use. Short of a case prep station I find this set to be the most user friendly.