12ga Boolits?

[Bullshop Junior]

This may sound crazy but here it goes. Looking for opinions before I start spending money on this project.

For a long time I have wanted to pick up one of the NEF tracker 12ga rifled slug guns. Finally picked up a rusty old beat up one this summer for 50 bucks with a broken stock, and got it cleaned up and shooting pretty good with factory slugs.

As far as I can tell doing research the gun has a 1/35" twist as does the savage 12ga guns. Most of the others have a 1/26" or a 1/28" twist. Way more then enough for a 1.25oz slug (around 600gn I believe)

Now here comes my thing. Doing some research on boolit leanth and what not I have come to think that the 1/35 twist would support a 1400gn WFN style boolit. Bore on my rifle measures at .717" with the groove .727".

Looking online all I can find are 2.5" brass cases but I already have a few 3" (gun has a three
Inch chamber) so I'm sure if I looked hard enough I could fine more. If not, the inside of a federal roll crimped fired plastic haul is .711" so once sized that should be tight enough to hold a boolit as it would go a ways inside of the haul. I would like to use brass as them it would be more like a standard center fire cartridge.

Thinking I will start out using black powder after I have the mould and reloading tools made. For 2 reasons 1 I like the big cloud of smoke 2 not worried about blowing my gun up as much because something goes wrong.

What do you guys think? Is it something worth trying or am I wasn't brain cells?

[jmort]

Here is brass

http://www.rockymountaincartridge.com/index_htm_files/RMC%20Shot%20Shells%20&%20Kits%20Prices.pdf

I would just go with 3" plastic. As far as boolit, some here are using a 1,043 grain slug (I think that is correct weight), which is this mold from Accurate stretched a bit, to good effect. Some day I'm going to get a 1,000 grain TL version. I would not go beyond the 1,000 grain range, but that's just me.

http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=73-900F-D.png

[Bullshop Junior]

Yea I'm kinda doubting that a 1400gn boolit would be fun to shoot. But it's not gonna be for fun. I had a run in with a angry 2000 lb moose this summer and then a grizzly soon after and the standard 1.25oz federal loads seemed a little light in the heat of the moment. Luckily I didn't have to shoot either.

[jmort]

There is a couple thread with discussion of the 1043 grain slug and users claim it is not too bad to shoot. Penetration with that slug at around 1,000 fps is serious medicine for anything on earth.

BTW fixed link for the brass.

[Bullshop Junior]

There is a couple thread with discussion of the 1043 grain slug and users claim it is not too bad to shoot. Penetration with that slug at around 1,000 fps is serious medicine for anything on earth.

But is it a typical style slug down inside the haul or is it loaded like you would load a 45/70
Or something of that nature?

[jmort]

It is full bore slug in a hull but not in a wad. you would need a O/P seal and a couple nitro cards to get to right height in hull. I'll see if I can get you a thread link.

Update: Check out this thread by cpileri, he is working with the 1043 grain slug and has posted some data.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?209132-Test3-Hubel-FH-BlazingSabot-inspired-loads-and-pictures

His most recent thread has 3.5" data I believe. He would be a good source for inspiration and information.

[Bullshop Junior]

That's interested. Would be interested in reading about that.

[jmort]

I updated post #6 above
Good luck, this is my favorite forum on this site

[longbow]

Greg Sappington had a mould made up for a slug of about 1000 grs. I have photos of it but I can't find the e-mail for details. I am sure he can provide details if you are interested ~ rifling twist, etc. His intent was bear protections as is yours.

Personally I like the old Paradox slugs which ran about 730 grs. One day I may work around to a rifled gun and get a Paradox mould made. James Gates (Dixie Slugs) posted drawings some time ago. I downloaded those for future use.

I have loaded slugs up to 800 grs. bit load data is scarce once you get over about 1 3/8 oz. Ed Hubel can probably help out with heavy weight slugs too as he loads for a lot of non-standard type stuff.

Recoil is a result of acceleration and ultimate velocity in the barrel length. If you load with slow powders and/or moderate velocity then recoil shouldn't be bad.

I have to think that a 730 gr. slug at 1100/1200 FPS is adequate for most things though. I would have to look up the article but Ross Seyfried got an original Paradox gun shooting well with the standard old Kynoch designed boolit and did some hunting with it. Even at moderate veolicity that 12 ga. boolit is impressive.

Longbow

[Bullshop Junior]

The thing I was really hoping to achieve I suppose is to have a 12ga or 72 caliber rifle
Like cartridge that has a typical style boolit that sticks out of the case and engages the rifling. I guess I was kind of hoping to get a more accurate round with a lot more know down power then say a 45/70 that would be good to about 100 yards.

[Bullshop Junior]

I really don't know much about this. I remember when I was a kid (9 or 10) my dad bought me a NEF parser 12ga with the smooth bore modified choke. I remember at one point buying boxes of the cheap $2 or $3 a box 12 bird shot opening up the crimps and dumping the shot out and putting in a roundball. It I was to buy a round ball mould for making 12ga ball loads what diamiter ball would I even want? I was looking at the lee .690" for maybe using with a wad or the Lyman .735" for just using with a little boolit lube and a cardbourd wad.

[bikerbeans]

Bullshop II,

The Tracker II you have is a much slimmer profile barrel than the 12ga H&R Ultra Slug Hunter & Savage bolt gun barrels that folks are using with the slow burn rate rifle powders and the heavy slugs. Just be careful what load data you use for your gun, I would talk to Mr. Hubel and others before loading the really heavy slugs.

FWIW, I have an HR 12ga USH LITE, which is the same barrel you have except it has a scope rail and no sights. I am shooting a 600g fullbore slug at about 1500 fps from this gun with good accuracy to about 100 yards. The slugs I have are water quenched WW that is heat treated so might be something you could use. I also have this same slug w/o the hollow base and it weighs 750 grains, but I have not worked up a load for them in this gun. Send me a PM if you are interested and I will mail you some of each to try. I will also include the load data provided with the slugs & some nitro cards and gas seals.


BB

[Greg5278]

The Slug I cast is roughly 1043Gr in WW with 2% Tin. It was tested at the Linbaugh Seminar, you can google the results. It will handle Bears or Moose as is. They can be HT and will not deform. Recoil at the 1080FPS level isn't bad, but is rough when you go much higher. I would doubt you want to go with a 1400Gr Slug. The heaviest Slug I could find for an older 12 Bore Rifle was 1200 Grains. I don't think you could push it fast enough to be any better than the 1043 one.
Greg
AKA 12 Bore

[cpileri]

I have shot greg's 880's and 1043's out of both 7-LB and 12-LB guns, its not at all bad out of the 12-pounder; definitely gets your attention (i.e. not recommended) out of the 7! The details of my gun and recoil pad, etc are in the thread thet jmortimer linked to.

Here are the results of Greg's loads at the Linebaugh seminar:

"The test gun was a stock Savage 210 bolt action fully rifled slug gun. (24 inch barrel) This gun with scope tips the scales at 8.2 pounds.
The loads were as follows;
880 grain slug at 1048 fps
880 grain slug at 1441 fps
1043 grain slug at 1080 fps

One test in water soaked newspaper, and the second test is water soaked newspaper with a full size beef femur placed approx 4" into the stack. Distances are fired are around 15 feet

The 880 grainers at 1048 penetrated 36" average in plain paper and went 4"paper+bone+ 18" average with the bone emplaced. Our bones were the beef femurs and were better than the size of a fist. The bullets recovered in paper were undamaged and the ones thru bone lost a nose portion if the first driving band and at times sheared to the second driving band. Those that were to the second band weighed 550 grains on average and those that were less damaged I couldnt weigh on a 750 grain scale.

The 880's at 1441 fps penetrated 45" thru paper and 4paper+bone+26" additional paper. Bullets recovered in plain paper were undamaged and thou bone lost the nose portion to the middle driving band, weight was 540 grains average.

The 1043 grainers went thre 48" paper on average and 4"paper+bone+ an additional 36 inches of paper. Plain paper bullets were undamaged and the ones thru bone showed only peened nose portions back to the start of the truncacted cone. I took them to a friend that had a 1000 grain scale and he couldn't weigh them on it. They survived well"

I personally founf that the 880's loaded w 60gr IMR SR-4759 for ~1440fps/14.5kpsi were the most accurate. But in general, i absolutely LOVE these slugs!

And it does look like a giant centerfire rifle cartridge. Not as cool as a 700 Nitro Express, but still cool.

C-

[cpileri]

Here is a close-up of the slugs:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?214287-Range-update-with-750-grain-69-conical-musket-boolit&p=2423921&viewfull=1#post2423921

[cpileri]

Here is how pretty the copper slug looks in a brass case:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?207869-Test-of-Hubel-Sabot-and-other-ammo-with-pics&p=2330214&viewfull=1#post2330214

[Bullshop Junior]

Why copper slug? Why not just standard lead alloy?

In a side note, I killed two grouse with my gun today using some old reloaded buckshot I made abou 5 years ago for my last gun.

[Garyshome]

I don't want to shoot anything that big! Sounds like it might hurt.

[Bullshop Junior]

I don't want to shoot anything that big! Sounds like it might hurt.

I would rather have a hurting shoulder and a dead bear.

My gun is pretty light. Especially now that I added the light weight synthetic stock...but it shoot pretty good and I'd like to see how much I can throw out of it and still have good accuracy and range to at least 100 yards. Kinda planning on using this gun on moose next year if I get a good boolit I think will work.

[Greg5278]

You can always add weight to your Gun to make Recoil a bit more tolerable. If the Stock Hole is large enough, you can pour a 3/4" piece of copper Pipe full of Lead to place inside. What I do is: put the pipe in a heat resistant Container full of sand, with an old penny in the bottom of the Pipe. That will add about 1# of lead for each 3-4" section.

Ithaca gunner, I have several Ithacas that I fire these Loads in. One is about 9#, and the other is 11.5#. They aren't to bad in a heavy gun. The heavy gun is used to fire test loads, and the really heavy recoil stuff. You should cast the slugs from your Mold with WW and a little Tin, that will harden them up, and make them a little lighter. The Mold you mention is a copy of my 770Gr slug, someone had Tom at Accurate copy mine. It shoots well in most guns, as long as you use the right length Hull. If the gun takes 3" hulls, then use them. The recoil isn't to bad for loads under 1200FPS, about like a Turkey load. I hunt with the 770 at 1390FPS. I sight in and practice with them at the lower velocity, and then hunt with the other. The zero won't change, only drop about 3/4" less at 100 yards. You won't even notice the difference in impact. The longest shot for me was 85 yards, and the result was one Buck DRT.

I use my Sabots and brass bullet for longer shots. The copper slug Carl mentions was made, just because I wanted a non Lead slug to shoot.
The outfit owed me for a machining Job that they couldn't complete. I've machined them from Brass and copper, including ones with holes all the way through them. They needed a machined .200" pusher to support them in the barrel. They cut like a hole punch through things, leaving 7/16" diameter discs donwrange.
Greg
AKA 12 Bore

[longbow]

If you are thinking round ball, 0.678" is good for most standard shotcups and should accommodate a choke if it meets one. 0.662" works well too but is a bit small for standard shotcups ~ I "patch" mine to fit and it is quite accurate from smoothbore. Not sure how those would work in a rifled gun.

I have not found a ball/shotcup combination that worked for me using 0.690" balls. I find them too big for most shotcups. Some people have had good results with 0.690" RB in shotcups in rifled guns though. Do a search and you should find some info.

0.735" moulds are available from Lyman and I have had good results using ACWW balls over a hard card wad column in both smoothbore and rifled gun. I tried cushion legs, fiber wads and other methods but with poor results. A plastic gas seal, hard card wad column then the ball works well for me. By the way, that 0.735" RB weighs 580 grs. so not a lightweight. I like round balls!

If you are using a rifled gun there are a number of solid slug designs around as well and Accurate Molds has a good selection from 570 to 900 grs.

Greg: Have you shot a critter with that hollow copper slug? I read about a hollow copper bullet of similar design many years ago. The idea was hyper velocity defensive loads for .357 mag. (IIRC) and cutting a "core" all the way through a "bad guy". Makes me shudder to think of the wound channel!

Longbow

[Bullshop Junior]

I pretty much only use 3" hulls unless I'm loading buckshot.

I really don't remember what size balls I shot before. All I remember is they made a big cloud of dirt flying when they stuff

[longbow]

Yeah, I have seen several posts with good results using the BPI brush wad. I should order some and give them a go. So far I am happy with my 0.662" and 0.678" RB loads in shotcups though so don't have a lot of enthusiasm for the 0.690" RB. Mind you, those brush wads should work with all the round balls... depending on cup size. If they do then they are a good addition to the slug reloading supplies.

One good thing about the 0.690" RB is that it is about the largest/heaviest choke friendly solid ball you can shoot... and Lee makes inexpensive 0.690" RB moulds so two good things.

Longbow

[Bullshop Junior]

I don't have a choke to worry about with my gun. And the lee mold is the one I was looking at since it's pretty cheap

[Bullshop Junior]

85579

That's the gun i have. I just dropped it on a scale and it comes
In at exactly...get ready....5 pounds exactly. Nice for packing. But it's got a little recoil...

85580

Just so y'all know what I'm dealing with, that's the buttplate.

I'm not really scared of recoil. I've shot some big guns with heavy loads. It takes a bit to scare me. I'm just looking for a load that will shoot through a moose, a bear, and freight train, and still take a little digging to find in the dirtbank.

[longbow]

That's a pretty light gun at 5 lbs.

Not sure what my single shot weighs and probably not a lot more than yours. I will say that with 38 grs. of Blue Dot under a 0.735" round ball it got my attention! Even a Remington 870 with rifled barrel was downright brutal to shoot with that load. Padding for the shoulder and/or a good recoil pad are your friends there! I didn't have either that day. I won't do that again!

A slower powder would produce more of a push and a heavier boolit with a lower velocity might not be too bad. Ed Hubel says his slow powder heavy loads don't recoil too badly because of the long acceleration due to slow burn. He gets some mighty impressive velocities! I haven't ventured into Ed Hubel load territory yet though.

In a self defense situation you probably wouldn't feel the recoil anyway. Practicing to be ready for that situation might result in getting beat up a little though. I know I was a little punchy after shooting 35 of those 0.735" round ball loads in an afternoon.

If the gun has a hollow stock you might be able to add weight for practice then remove it for packing. You don't want to develop a flinch.

Not sure of what it would take to drive a slug through a moose or big bear. Big and heavy is usually good but a 1 to 1 1/4 oz. slug or ball at 1400-1500FPS should make an impression. Not sure how that would compare to say 1000 grs. at 1100/1200 FPS.

Greg or turbo could probably advise on that one.

Either way, if you are looking for penetration a solid ball or slug is the way to go. Since you have a rifled gun, no need for hollow base slugs.

Longbow

[Greg5278]

Longbow, I have not shot any critters with the hollow Brass Slugs. They did shred and spit out plenty of 7/16" diameter plugs of Phonebooks.
I would guess they would shred most any thin skinned Game. I seem to recall pushing them at 1500-1600FPS. No matter the Velocity, I wouldn't want to be one the receiving end, even in IIIA Body Armor. They did make some Steel slugs to deflate Semi-Trck rims of similar design.
I seem to recall the German BAT bullet, that was similar, but had a nose cone to help Ballistic Coefficient.
Greg
AKA 12 Bore

[Bullshop Junior]

I would prefer a solid bore diamiter slug. I don't remember how fast my dad shoot 600gn boolits from his 50AK but they sailed clean through a moose.

Shooting the 3" magnum 1.25oz federal I only had one issue -the stock has a few rough spots and to tire my hands up pretty good. So I wear gloves when I shoot it now. Other then that. I fired about 15 rounds and still could use my arm the next day. And it shot pretty good

85604

That was my last three shots off hand at 50 yards. There isn't a place to go shooting with the bench for over 100 miles and I couldn't get my truck over the berm pile at the gravel got to use it as a rest.

[Greg5278]

I think the 1043Gr slug at 1000-1100 FPS is your best Bet. You do need to add some Weight to you gun.
Maybe 1-2# to help slow it down.
Greg
AKA 12 Bore

[Bullshop Junior]

I think the 1043Gr slug at 1000-1100 FPS is your best Bet. You do need to add some Weight to you gun.
Maybe 1-2# to help slow it down.
Greg
AKA 12 Bore

Where would i look to get a mold for that slug?

[jmort]

Accurate. I gave the link in this thread or the other thread. You have to ask Tom to stretch out the 900 grain that I linked. here it is again:
http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=73-900F-D.png

[Bullshop Junior]

Has anyone tried this one? I like the design a little better. 85606

[longbow]

There we go... http://www.ammo-one.com/38SpPMCookieCutter.html

A little off topic but since it got mentioned, here is the handgun version.

Back to topic.

That's not a bad looking slug Daniel. It is one large hunk of lead to be lobbing! I am sure that whatever it hits will give up quick.

You will have to check with the heavy slug guys for loads though. Load data tends to be sparse for slugs over about 1 3/8 to 1 1/2 oz.

Longbow

[bikerbeans]

bullshop jr,

I have a friend talking to Accurate right now about ordering their 900g 12g slug mould with a HB pin. I hope he gets the mold so I can help with the load work up.

You gun pic is a little fuzzy on my out of date laptop but the stock looks like the ATI adjustable stock, similar to the AR/M4 stocks. If it is and can still be adjusted be care to make sure it is locked in place. There is a pic or two on the GBO Handirifle forum of what happens when you pull the trigger with that stock not fully locked in position. The one shooter had the worst Weaver Bite I had ever seen, looked like Mike Tyson in is prime had nailed him. A number of folks with the ATI stock on their Handis have modified the stock so that it can't collapse; I don't remember how this was done.


BB

[Bullshop Junior]

I put up a post about the stock and the modifications i did to it when i first got it. I took the lock pin out and dilled it out for a steel bolt.

As for the pics being fuzzy, that might be on my end. I took the pics on my iphone.

If he does get the mold i am interested on hearing how it works.

[Bullshop Junior]

There we go... http://www.ammo-one.com/38SpPMCookieCutter.html

A little off topic but since it got mentioned, here is the handgun version.

Back to topic.

That's not a bad looking slug Daniel. It is one large hunk of lead to be lobbing! I am sure that whatever it hits will give up quick.

You will have to check with the heavy slug guys for loads though. Load data tends to be sparse for slugs over about 1 3/8 to 1 1/2 oz.

Longbow

It seems like something like thatbwould loose velocity too quickly for anything over about 20 yards.

[dverna]

I admire guys who can shoot guns that kill at both ends.

[Bullshop Junior]

I admire guys who can shoot guns that kill at both ends.

I have actually found this to be more pleasant to shoot then say a 375 H&H or a 458 WM.

[Greg5278]

The Maxi-Ball style slug from Accurate is a copy of my 880Gr design. It was tested at the Linbaugh Seminar, CP pasted the results.
The design of the 880 is supposed to rivet the nose, and expand slightly. The 1043Gr one is not designed to expand, and should be cast from hard alloy or Heat treated.
The 1043gr slug is a Long Truncated Cone slug with dual crimp grooves cut in my Mold Blocks. It was also tested, and extremely effective.
The heavy one takes up more room in the Hull because of the longer nose, and will use less Filler cards. The 900gr FN design shown could be a problem in the Forcing cone of your Gun. I try and have the slug enter the Rifling, while still having the rear of the slug in the hull. In regular
Shotguns with Forcing Cones, TC designs have been slightly better than SWC designs, but not by much. My personal Opinion is that the SWC designs scuff the Slug unevenly when going into the Forcing Cone. It seems to be most apparent when firing hollow Base SWC designs. The holes in the Target are often slightly oblong. Bullshop JR, check some of the other Posts from CP, and there is a pic of the 1043 slug.
Greg
AKA 12 Bore

[cpileri]

maybe this commercial ammo is something you'd be interesred in:

http://litfld.com/wp/?page_id=310
or
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/523727/lightfield-commander-ids-plus-ammunition-12-gauge-3-1-2-1-3-8-oz-sabot-slug-box-of-5

only 600gr at 1890fps, so maybe too light; but its 72-cal.
maybe the ammo manufacturers are taking note of our efforts here? this is up into the Hubel-level velocity!
C-

[longbow]

Dixie had a nice slug in the Tusker but I don't think they sell them anymore. I liked the design though it was for rifled gun. It was 600 grs. or alittle over.

What they do have now that looks impressive is the Dixie IXL-DGS slug at 870 grs. which is closer to your desired weight.

http://www.dixieslugs.com/products.html

You could try some to see if they suit you then get a full bore mould made in similar design and weight if you like them.

Alternately you might see who has what and see if you can get some samples to try then get a mould made of the slug you like. There are a few guys shooting the heavy stuff ~ Greg, Ed Hubel and turbo for instance.

Yeah, those cookie cutters would probably slow down quick but they were meant for close range self defense.

Longbow

[jason f]

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=73-900F-D.png

I just ordered this mold. Gonna have a hollow base and flat base pin made for it.

[Hackleback]

I have an USH and have reloaded for it. AA hull, about 200 gr of BP and a Dixie full bore hard cast slug. let's just say, you know when it goes off.

[bikerbeans]

I have an USH and have reloaded for it. AA hull, about 200 gr of BP and a Dixie full bore hard cast slug. let's just say, you know when it goes off.

Did the smoke ever clear?!?

BB

[Hackleback]

A bit of smoke....... One good thing about shooting slugs is that you can easily see the holes in the target. No need for on of those fancy spotting scopes.... Just look for daylight.

[cpileri]

Now that is one guy who could really help you out: Dixie!
its really a shame that James Gates at Dixie is out of commission for health reasons, a huge loss to this community. i try to get as much of the load data on his specialty loads (tri-ball, tri-ball 3.5", and heavy slugs, as well as wad column building) and keep it alive by re-posting it.
but he really has a wealth of knowledge to share, has been very generous about sharing it. I hope his knowledge, ammo and components remain available to all for years to come; but you never know.
He doesnt know me, but he is in my prayers.
C-

[Greg5278]

Jason, I'm pretty sure the Mold your ordered is a base pour design. You're not going to be able to make a hollow base that way. A hollow point is possible. The Mold needs to be Nose pour to modift the base design. Check it out before Tom starts cutting Chips.
Bullshop, PM me and I'll try to help with some Slugs.
Greg
AKA 12 Bore

[Bullshop Junior]

A bit of smoke....... One good thing about shooting slugs is that you can easily see the holes in the target. No need for on of those fancy spotting scopes.... Just look for daylight.

You can say that again. Thats why i want to get this gun shooting good with a load that will shoot clean through a moose. He isnt walking far with a hole that big.

[bikerbeans]

Greg,


I have been talking to Jason re: this mold and he told me Accurate will make most of their molds as top pour so you can you use a HB pin. Once Jason gets this mold I may need to invest in a 12ga USH as my 12ga at just under 6lbs is a tad light for that much lead.


BB

[Bullshop Junior]

Greg,


I have been talking to Jason re: this mold and he told me Accurate will make most of their molds as top pour so you can you use a HB pin. Once Jason gets this mold I may need to invest in a 12ga USH as my 12ga at just under 6lbs is a tad light for that much lead.


BB

Is USH a brand or gun? Im not realy sure what youbare talking abkut with that.

[greywuuf]

Ultra Slug hunter, thats the rifled barrel for the H&R

[cpileri]

The USH is what i use, and you cant go wrong there; its the cheapest way to get a nice slug gun. I have lead inside and stuck on the thing about everywhere it will fit to add weight. its ugly, but it sure gets the job done. i think however, for the 20 ga i will get the Savage 220.

I have my USH detailed pretty well in the beginning of all my "test" posts.

greg will recommend a custom ithaca. its a step up in price but not too bad at under 1000 bucks. definitely on my bucket list.
C-

[jason f]

Accurate molds will cut any of his molds to use a hollow base plug . You just have to specify it in special instructions on order form.

[Bullshop Junior]

Ultra Slug hunter, thats the rifled barrel for the H&R

They also have the Tracker and tracker 2. Mine is a tracker two. Weighs in at exactly 5 pounds

[bikerbeans]

The USH is a 12ga rifled barrel that is made from a 10ga barrel blank. It is mounted on the same frame HR1871 uses for their 10ga guns.

BB

[jason f]

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-2550-D.png
this is how mold looks after cut. You supply your own pin.

You can pick which design you want cut this way

[Bullshop Junior]

The USH is a 12ga rifled barrel that is made from a 10ga barrel blank. It is mounted on the same frame HR1871 uses for their 10ga guns.

BB

I wish i had the heavy barrel on mine. The pardner barrel is pretty thin, and it actually has a small bump inside where the forarm mounting stud is.

[jason f]

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=73-900F-D.png
now I need some suggestions on the design of hollow base pin.

[Greg5278]

Have you guys considered the newer Ithaca rifled Guns? They are very well made, and a Pump action, allowing for faster followup Shots.
I wouldn't go after big Game with a single Shot, unless I had someone to back me up. I feel very confident with my 2 custom Ithacas, I only used their actions, and Stock. I had the barrels made. For a nice Stock rifled Gun, I'd go with one one them. I seem to recall they had a Guide Model with a Synthetic or Laminate Stock, and for Bear Protection. I haven't seem the inside of their rifled bores, but they seem to be accurate.

The best Advice I can give with Shotguns and Slugs, is that they are Finicky. A slug and Load that works for mosr Guns, can shoot Poorly in another. Sinc almost all Shotguns have the standard forcing Cone, I like to go with a longer slug to guide it i nto the Bore. It would be nice to make a Slug Mold with a Hollow base that could be swaged around a dowel to increase the Length, without making it Fragile.
Greg
AKA 12 Bore

[Bullshop Junior]

I had a Ithica for awhile in 16ga an didn't really care for it. I thought it was kind of heavy for something i would be packing a lot. Im not too worried about a singleshot. I shoot a lot of single shots and have gotten pretty fast at reloading them. Not that i expect much to need a second shot with a booit that big...

[Greg5278]

Ithacas are usually pretty light, particularly the 16ga. A light Gun will pund you more than a slightly heavier one, and you might not want to Practice with it. IMHO I wouldn't go into Bear Territory with a single shot, maybe a double barrel minimum. I prefer a Repeater, maybe even my Benelli M1. It is reliable, as long as you don't use Low recoil Ammunition in it. I am sure I could put all 7 rounds downrange in less than 3 Seconds. With heavy slugs and normal Loads, I can put an 8" group at 15 yards in about 2+ Seconds. The Gun is far faster than I am.
If you go with the 1043gr slug, you will have plenty of Penetration, and Tissue Damage.

I don't think that Load would Fail you, as long as it's placed properly.
Greg
AKA 12 Bore

[Bullshop Junior]

I believe the Ithica I had was a model 37 "DeerSlayer" with the bottom ejection. It was a 16ga. It was a great gun, but a little heavy to be packing around along with 2 chainsaws, a gallon of bar oil, 3 gallons if gas, and a tool bag.

[Greg5278]

It looks like the Ithaca 37 in 16 and 12Ga run about 7.25-7.5# unless you put a heavy barrel on them. Thhe Remington 870 weighs 7.5#
The bottom Ejection is nice, but takes a little getting used to for loading. I've seem lots of People have trouble loading them properly.
The easy way is to turn the Gun upside down and to push the first shell down throught the Liter fingers and into the Chamber, then close the action and load the Tube. My Benelli is also a little different, you have to really jam the shell into the Tube, or it comes out between the lifter and the Bolt. I really like both guns, but wish Benelli would make one that was semi auto, and had a fully threaded barrel to Receiver Fit.
Greg
AKA 12 Bore

[longbow]

To further Greg's comment about long slugs and guiding into the forcing cone, I have tried all sorts of slug designs and found that to be an ongoing problem.

I made a couple of moulds to make long slugs try to overcome it and still failed. One of the slugs was a DEEP hollow base with thin skirt to keep weight and thickness to the nose then filled with hot melt glue to support the skirt. It shot okay but no better than the Lyman Foster (which is about 8" at 50 yards for me). I also made one long solid Brenneke style with screwed on base wads and was extremely surprised when I recovered slugs that showed they had cocked in the barrel, and I believe the attachment screw bent in the barrel ~ hard to be sure from recovered slugs but the evidence of cocking on the slug was absolute.

Now having said that, I am shooting smoothbore and generally 2 3/4" hulls in 3" chamber so more jump. 3" hulls should help but that forcing cone can be pretty long so there is some slop as the slug leaves the hull and heads to the bore. If the wad column collapses or doesn't support the slug well enough to keep it centered and in line with the bore it will "bump" itself off the sides of the forcing cone which can damage the slug. I have seen "diagonal" damage to the slug where the nose on one side has been flattened and the edge of the skirt on the opposite side has been flattened. Since these were bore size slugs, that has to be cocking as it leaves the hull.

Solid wad columns are your friend! Or at least that is what I have found. In fact, I think the wad column is at least as important as the slug. If the wad column does not support the slug well then accuracy will suffer in my experience. Rifled guns may respond somewhat different but you will likely have to work up loads and play with wad columns to get good consistent accuracy.

If you haven't seen it that 1043 gr. slug of Greg's it is pretty impressive! I am sure with his slug and load data you would be good to go.

Longbow

[nanuk]

Yea I'm kinda doubting that a 1400gn boolit would be fun to shoot. But it's not gonna be for fun. I had a run in with a angry 2000 lb moose this summer and then a grizzly soon after and the standard 1.25oz federal loads seemed a little light in the heat of the moment. Luckily I didn't have to shoot either.

a guy in Churchill Manitoba just last week went after a polar bear with a shovel... still alive too!

bear was killing a girl on his deck, he heard the noise and came outside. only "Weapon" he had was the shovel.

bear didn't like it, so took after him leaving the girl alive.

some neighbours brought out the shotguns... must have sounded like a war zone, with all the 12ga's going off at once.

I've been up close to a Pbear and even when tranquilized, they are scaryboo!

I'll bet he'd think a 12ga with standard slugs would seem a bit light also

[Greg5278]

If you keep your Wits about you, a properly loaded 12 ga is fine.
My 1043grain Truncated slug is fine for Bears or Large Game. It will out penetrate the .416 Rigby nad .50 BMG but at less Velocity. The more powerful Rifle Rounds do not penetrate in a straight line, and cannot be expected to rech the off side of a Large Animal.My loade were tested at the Linebaugh Seminar, and continued straight, even after hitting a large Beef Femur.
The testing was performed by a third Party, and I only supplied the loaded Ammunition. I challege the big Factory ammo manufacturers to put their Pruducts up for such testing.
Soft swaged Lead slugs will not be sufficient to tackle large heavy boned Game in adverse conditions. Heat treated lead slugs or Bullets will perform much better, and retain a better weight percentage.
Greg
AKA 12 Bore

[jmort]

"I'll bet he'd think a 12ga with standard slugs would seem a bit light also"

He did say standard slugs. Those in the know, have no doubt that the 12 gauge is "more gun" than most anything out there. Read Hubel458's thread, 12 gauge from He!!. He is north of .50 BMG, way north. Look at Hubel458's hottest loads and see if you can find any shoulder fired gun available to civilians that exceeds his energy levels. I could not. I have always wanted to go to a Linebaugh Seminar. I load the Tri-Ball recipe from James Gates and it is a freight train. Greg5278's 1043 grain slug is a big freight train and his point about straight-line penetration is spot-on. "Standard" shotgun slugs like the Brenneke Magnum Crush will smoke anything on earth, including a Polar Bear. I guess I just like shotguns.

[Hogtamer]

Jmortimer, I'm in your camp. The retained energy of 12 ga. shotgun "big lead" is dramatic! And for about $.75 I can load and shoot a weapon that is as powerful as ANY I'm physically able to handle...

[Carryacolt]

Jmortimer,

I agree. When I look at my 12ga, I see the largest bored and heaviest hitting "rifle" in my safe. The next biggest would be my little 20ga "rifle". I love being able to shoot full bore slugs knowing I could go to Africa and hunt the largest game with a "rifle" that didn't cost $20-30 grand.