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W.R.Buchanan
10-25-2013, 03:07 PM
I bought some new pellets in anticipation of the R1 acquisition. I wanted the heaviest pellets for .22 cal. I could find.

This is what I came up with from Pyramid Air.

First is the H&N Barracuda. left in pic. 21.4 gr and this one hits hard from the R1.

Second is the H&N "Crow Magnum HP" at 18.2 gr. It also hits hard.

And Third is a regular H&N Match at 13.7 gr. I have been shooting these exclusively in my HW77 for years, they are accurate and on small targets like Mocking Birds they are devastating. Never had any thing this size including Rats walk away from being hit by one of these pellets. http://www.pyramydair.com/s/p/Beeman_H_N_Match_22_Cal_13_73_Grains_Wadcutter_200 ct/462

However I wanted something heavier to shoot from the R1 simply because that gun is a lot more powerful than the HW77 and could use heavier pellets more effectively.

Hence the Barracuda Pellets. at 21.4 gr they are approaching .22 Short sized projectiles, and at @765 claimed fps, they are close to Short velocities as well. Also the round/pointed design of the pellet will increase it's Ballistic Coefficient over the flat nosed Match Wadcutter style pellet so it should shoot flatter. This all may reduced down to splitting hairs but it will be fun to see what these different pellets will actually do in the real world.
http://www.pyramydair.com/s/p/H_N_Baracuda_Match_22_Cal_21_14_Grains_Round_Nose_ 200ct/883

The verdict is still out on the Crow Magnum's HP design and what it actually will do. IN reality it is basically just a heavier flat nosed match type wadcutter style pellet with a shallow hole in the end. It might work well on rats and things like that. http://www.pyramydair.com/s/p/H_N_Crow_Magnum_22_Cal_18_21_Grains_Hollowpoint_20 0ct/732

For the Raccoons I'm using the big pellet.

While I was ordering the Scope mount for the R1 I also picked up a couple of these Pellet Dispenser Pens, one in .177 and one in .22 cal for $10 each. They make it easier to place pellets in the barrel of a break action gun so you don't have to fiddle with trying to pick pellets one at a time out of a tin. You just load up 15-20 pellets in this pen sized tool and put them directly into the chamber of the gun. http://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Pellet_Pen_Holds_15_22_Cal_Pellets_Green/3693

Randy

HollowPoint
10-25-2013, 05:36 PM
I haven't really looked into it but I was wondering, are there any 22 caliber pellet molds available? I'd like to try to make one of my own but I want to see exactly what design others are finding to be the most accurate DIY pellet molds.

I made my own air gun bullet molds back when I owned a Sam Yang 45 caliber but I've never tried making anything as small as a 22 caliber bullet or pellet for that matter.

HollowPoint

W.R.Buchanan
10-25-2013, 07:12 PM
Small is the problem. All of the pellets I have seen are swaged. Trying to get a mould that is shaped like a skirted pellet to fill all the way might prove challenging. Then there's the HP pins it would need for the hollow base.

They are really just too cheap to buy to justify making them. Maybe if you couldn't buy them, then we'd have to look at casting them or swaging them by hand. Swaging would be easier.

Randy

MT Chambers
10-25-2013, 09:57 PM
My .22 airgun is a diff. model and type (PCP) but it shot the JSB 15 and 18 grain pellets best by far, some of the groups with pointed pellets and hollow points were very poor.

Larry Gibson
10-25-2013, 11:03 PM
The heavier pellets may not stabilize in the R1. The Crow Mags are the heaviest that shoot well (they lose stability around 40 yards) in my M54 but anything heavier doesn't shoot well at all because of the twist. I find 14 - 14.3 gr domed pellets to be the best all around. I prefer Crosman CPs which are very accurate to 90 yards but lose it after that. My M54 RWS pushes the 14.3 gr CPs right at 800 fps.

Larry Gibson

HARRYMPOPE
10-25-2013, 11:26 PM
The pellet is sort of like a minie ball.they seem to stabilize beyond what twist would seem logical.my 48 .177 shoots long pointy pellets very well.also my nitro piston 22 shoots up to 18g with no problems.pellet type and make seem to be the accuracy factor for me anyhow.this last 6 month's I have spent almost every night shooting a tx200 and 48 .177 at 25 and 50 (and sometimes at 100)and one night one pellet seems to outshot the other and it drives me mad because the next night the results will flip flop.last month I shot 2500+ pellets.its not cheap anymore.

Garyshome
10-25-2013, 11:39 PM
Still cheaper than boolits. I need to buy some more for the Z apocalypse!

HollowPoint
10-26-2013, 01:12 PM
I hope this reply doesn't take this thread to far off the beaten path.

I found a british website from a guy that makes and sells his own line of pellet swaging molds. It's a simple enough design that any one with a little mechanical or machining ability can build one.

I believe I'll give it a go after I've taken possession of the 22 caliber air rifle I've had my eye on. It should be a fun project and I've got buckets full of stick-on wheel weights I can use.

The pellets that these DIY pellet molds produce appear to be of the bore-rider type with the pellets being a little on the heavy side. I'm thinking that the weight can be varied to some degree by alloy and by increasing or reducing the depth and size of the hollow at the base.

http://airgunpelletmaker.weebly.com/

My rendition of this pellet swaging design will be a little different but the basic outcome will be the same.

HollowPoint

W.R.Buchanan
10-26-2013, 01:31 PM
So far as anticipated the H&N Match wadcutters are the most accurate at 10 yds. These pellets have always been the most accurate in every gun I have ever owned.

It is impossible to accurately judge accuracy beyond 10 yards right now due to the open sights on the gun. I was annoyed that the front sight appears to be a globe style sight with removable inserts but in fact is just a solid one piece casting with a pretty coarse blade. It looks like the one on my HW35 but it don't work that way. I'm looking for an older Front Sight from an HW35 to replace this one.

When the scope mount comes in next week I'll mount the Bug Buster Scope and start evaluating longer distance performance.

I have never shot anything with any of my pellet guns beyond 40 yards, so I really don't know what the maximum effective range is for these guns. Also the vast majority of my shooting has been indoors at 10M / 33 ft.

The only live game I have shot have been primarily Mocking Birds at either 10 or 40 yds. A few rats and one Crow that I shot at about 10 feet which fell like a stone. I shot it up thru the bottom of the head. I picked it up by a wing tip and deposited it in the trash can beside the house. This was on Saturday Morning.

Monday evening after dinner my wife took the trash out of the kitchen and flipped the lid of the trash can open only to find a very alive crow squawking at her. I was dispatched to bludgeon the creature to death with a broom handle.

You shoulda seen her face when she ran in the house yelling and screaming.

I guess the pellet went in the bottom of it's head and out the top and missed the pea brain on the way thru. This was a .22 cal. H&N Match pellet.

I haven't done any long range shooting of these guns simply because the targets of opportunity have always been closer. In fact now that I think about it I have only left the house and property once to shoot my HW77 in a club shoot, all the rest of my shooting has been at or around home. My lot is 150x180 feet so the longest conceivable shot I could have is 50-60 yards, and I can't actually set up and sight in at those distances due to neighbors. I will have to take it to the range and sight it in there. However I can shoot it at 100 yards and see if I can hit anything at that distance.

Never even considered the fact that pellets might not stabilize beyond a certain distance.

be an interesting test. Should get the Chrony out today and do some velocity tests with all the different guns and pellets to see what's happening in the real world.

Randy

Multigunner
10-26-2013, 06:03 PM
Never even considered the fact that pellets might not stabilize beyond a certain distance.

Randy

I've watched a few videos made by a guy that takes some ultra long shots at birds on roofs of buildings. The camera is mounted along the barrel so you get a good image of the base of the pellet in flight.
At longer ranges the pellets take on a spiral path. The spiral about what with be the bore line, never actually deviating away from the flight path completely.
At differing points in the flight path the same pellet might be high, low, or to either side of the bore line, spiraling back as it goes along.

I'd seen charts on something similar with long range high powered rifle bullets, but the charts were a bit confusing. This sort of Spiraling may only happen at lower velocities.

I've seen pellet gang molds years ago, these usually require some method of swaging the skirt after casting the pellets.

W.R.Buchanan
10-26-2013, 09:49 PM
Well instead of getting the Chrony out I decided to see if the gun would shoot 50 yards and if I could hit anything at that distance.

It does, and I could.

I paced off 50 yds. up my driveway from the garage and right at 50 yds. I just happen to have a large boulder laying on the lawn so I shot it twice and low and behold I hit it both times. The pellets were two silver smudges, now a permanent part of the rock.

So I then took a small box up and sat it on the rock. This box had one of those black seals on the bottom about 2" in dia. so I used that as the point of aim. I ended up with about a 3" group about 2" low and to the right. So I adjusted the rear sight accordingly and started hitting the spot almost every shot. This is all using the garage door frame to steady my aim from the standing position. (a common field shooting position.)

Amazingly all three styles of pellets are in the same group!

I have to say I was not prepared for the level of power this gun has. Sighted dead on at 10M =dead on again at 50 yds. Also hitting a 2" circle at 50 yds. was better than I expected as well. When the pellets hit the box there was a resounding FWAP! Gonna shoot a phone book at 50 yds. tomorrow just to see what it's got left out that far.

Can't wait to get the scope mounted.

I also am feeling it tonight. 25-30 rounds thru that gun is more than enough. By comparison, I got the HW35 out and shot a few rounds thru it afterwards. It is a lot easier to cock it than the R1, the HW77 is as well. The R1 is definitely a beast.

Today I also installed a motion sensor light on the garage so that if Mr Coon shows up I will be able to see him and deal with him as well.

I am off to tune the sensor light for best coverage of the front lawns.

Randy

W.R.Buchanan
10-26-2013, 10:17 PM
HP: That pellet making system he's got could easily be made to run on a common reloading press like a Rockchucker.

The pellets he was making resemble the older style Sheridan Pellets.

I see no reason why they shouldn't work well in the German guns. A shorter fatter pellet would probably stabilize in the twist of these guns if they act like a revolver boolit does in that regard.

I agree that they look like a bore rider design where the little skirt at the back is all that takes the rifling.

Need to look into this a little more, and see if someone like Corbin makes dies that would work. Also Dave at C&H is into things like this, maybe he could conjure up something.

Randy

HARRYMPOPE
10-27-2013, 12:22 AM
Many times a pellet driven too fast will have the skirt deformed and corkscrew.Edgunusa on YouTube had a .177 PcP that wouldn't shoot.he went back toned down the velocity and the pellets stopped squirreling about and it shot very well.sometimes magnum guns need heavy pellets to stop this.

W.R.Buchanan
10-28-2013, 03:23 AM
The old boy from England has the Pellet mould and swaging dies that produce a pellet that looks a lot like the original Sheridan Pellets. I am wondering if these would shoot well in my R1. if so I would be willing to go to Dave at C&H and have a set of swaging dies made to order that duplicate those pellets. Reason for going to C&H is I am not willing to give the English guy $200 for his dies that require a hammer and vise when I can get dies that run in a normal loading press made here for half that.

On another note I did some penetration tests at 50 yds. today. The Barracuda pellets penetrated about 3/4" of dry phone book and pretty much stayed in tact. The Crow Magnum pellets did about 1/2" and were completely flattened.

More on this when the scope mount arrives latter this week and I can do some actual accuracy testing. I did manage to pull off about a 2" 3 shot group at 50 yds. with the open sights. The front sight is just too coarse for anything closer. I found an HW Globe sight with inserts like my HW35 came with, at Pyramid Air for $70! Probably will put that one on hold for a while since this gun has to have a scope on it to reach anything close to it's potential, and the existing iron sights are fine for back up.

Also I found out today when running a few patches thru the barrel on the R1 that the twist is 1:16.5" This is nearly the same as .22 Rimfires have, which are typically 1:16".

Randy

W.R.Buchanan
10-29-2013, 01:57 PM
OK: After researching this subject further and having a conversation with Dave Corbin yesterday I have some information to report.

First: They have made Air gun pellet swaging dies for many years and understand the subject perfectly.

Apparently an airgun pellet works exactly like a shotgun slug. so the diameter to length ratios are already established..

The pellet they do looks almost identical to the English guys pellet except is available as either a round nose or SWC design.(different nose punch.

Corbin's Dies are NOT CHEAP . $289.95 for the single stage die which produces a pellet with every stroke of the Rockchucker press. Mind you this is top quality tooling and will last forever. From a machinists view point this die is well worth the cost. It is beautiful and very precise work and Corbin makes the best swaging equipment out there. I would want $500 for the same thing and wouldn't even smile when I told you the price, because I'd probably lose money on the job. They already know exactly what they are doing and I don't.

You still need to produce the blanks and they can be cut from .218 dia. lead wire (you need the wire and the core cutter for another $100+) or you can cast them with a variable length mould (another $100+)

That said,,, from an economic standpoint you can buy about 7000 highest quality .22 cal. pellets for the @$350 it would cost you to get up and running. So you are not saving any money until you have produced 7000 pellets and shot them.

For someone like Harry M Pope who is shooting 2500 rounds a month this tool would pay for itself in 3-4 months. However you still have your time to justify. So what is your time worth? Also you have to feed the die with cores which are either cut from lead wire which you have to buy or castings you have to make.

Lots to consider here. The only way I see this as being a viable past time is if you shoot a lot and can spend the time making your pellets. I figure that if you shot 500 rounds a month, the tooling would pay for itself in a year and that wouldn't be too bad. Another viable reason would be if the supply of commercial pellets stopped, then obviously it would be just about the only way to shoot the guns.

For those who wonder why in the hell we would consider doing this, or even shooting a $500-1200+ airgun in the first place, it's all about being able to shoot at home and not have to leave to go shooting. It's one thing if you live in a rural area and have a 300 yard range in your backyard with no neighbors to complain about the noise or ricochet's , it's quite another thing entirely if you live in town an have to drive 20-50 miles or farther just to shoot.

You can achieve meaningful practice at home down a hallway or in your garage. Believe me shooting a high quality airgun is just as satisfying as shooting a high quality firearm except for the recoil and the costs involved. Shooting any decent airgun a few times a week is better than only getting to shoot a firearm once a month.

Any way you look at it,,, it is all about shooting more, and shooting more makes you better, and that's what we are all trying to achieve.

Here's Corbin's website that has everything you need to know about this subject.
http://www.corbins.com/pellets.htm

Randy

HollowPoint
10-29-2013, 06:23 PM
I happened to be checking our latest Arizona Game and Fish Department regulations today and I just found out that many of the animals that could only legally be hunted with center fire and some rim fire guns can now be hunted with pneumatic weapons; even deer if you use a PCP of .35 caliber or above.

My favorites; coyotes can now be hunted with non-PCP pneumatic weapons. This is great news for me as I no longer have to buy reloading components unless I want to.

A while back I picked up a new SamYang 45 caliber air rifle but, at the time it was illegal to hunt anything but rabbits with it. I sold it just a short while later thinking the chances of legalizing it to hunt anything other than rabbits would be slim to none; boy, was I ever wrong.

Although it's easier said than done, The concept drawing below is the kind of pellet design I had in mind for my soon to be delivered 22 cal air rifle.

I think it incorporates all the attributes I'd want in a air gun projectile (non-pellet) for my specific needs.

I've made bullet molds for rifles and pistol before and for the most part they came out far from perfect but quite usable.

This design would be tiny by comparison but I think I can do it too. It would start out as a cast lead cylinder with the grease grooves and driving bands molded in. Then the ogive and hollow point would be swaged to final form.

The good thing about it would be that I wouldn't have to drive the 30 or 40 mile round trip just to test them. I can do it in my back yard.

HollowPoint

grizzlyadams
10-31-2013, 11:56 AM
i use those crowmags in my .22 caliber webley patriot, they sure do put the smackdown on trash raiding coons at the 25 yds or so i shoot them out to. the kodiak/ baracudas i use in several guns, but only in .25 caliber so far. they are a great long range pellet.

W.R.Buchanan
11-16-2013, 08:52 PM
Just a heads up for you guys.

Pyramyd Air now has a cheaper version of the Beeman/H&N Diabolo Match Style pellets called "H&N Sport" in stock.

They are still made by H&N however I don't think they get the same QC as the Beeman/H&N match pellets. They are exactly the same size and weight and look to be identical. However they come in tins of 500 instead of the normal 200 for .22 cal. pellets.

The .22's are $13.95 per tin of 500. The Regular Beeman/ H&N match pellets are normally $9.95 per 200 ea. so there is a significant savings here.

These are my goto indoor shooting pellets and are easily the most accurate pellets I have ever shot in all my guns. For indoor shooting I doubt anyone short of a full on Olympic Target shooter could tell the difference.

Lots of value here and when you buy from Pyramyd Air, you buy three and get the forth one free.

Randy

HollowPoint
11-17-2013, 02:25 AM
While I'm waiting for some tooling to come in for the upcoming modifications on my new 22 cal air rifle bullet mold, I picked up an assortment-pack of different pellets today at wallyworld.

I should have done that to begin with. I found that out of this particular rifle the 14-grain Benjamin Discovery pellets shoot bug-holes out to twenty yards. What really helped out alot was doing a trigger job on it.

I can't wait to try some of the modified cast 22 caliber boolits I'll be cooking up. Those too have to be modified to fit my chamber. That's really what the tooling is for. The mods on the air gun consist of fabricating one new component for the trigger group. It should allow me to cock the rifle so as to give me about a quarter-inch more compression on my gas piston and an equal amount of additional air-volume inside the compression chamber.

Because I'll be shooting cast bullets weighing around 29-30 grains, the added air volume should help mitigate some of the loss of velocity that I fully expect if I were to leave it at its factory settings. If I were shooting lighter weight pellets with this modification I'm pretty sure it would be too much but, by using the heavier cast bullets rather than the lighter conventional pellets it should be OK. If it turns out that these modified cast bullets don't perform as I'd hoped, it's easy enough to revert back to factory components and factory settings.

I really hope it works though.

The JSB Jumbo Exact-Heavies in the 18 grain configuration shot OK but, not as accurately as these lighter weight hollow pointed pellets. An added benefit is that the lighter weight pellets cost nearly half of what the Heavies do. They're good to fall back on if things don't pan out with the cast projectiles.

HollowPoint

HollowPoint

HARRYMPOPE
11-17-2013, 02:32 AM
I thought about a .22 hbwc mold.The savings I might have vs the time to make them would eat into my shooting .if I got a .25 cal I might think of it or a non chocked pcp that could handle heavier pellets than my spring guns.

HollowPoint
11-17-2013, 11:34 AM
I know I'm getting ahead of myself but, the ballistics calculations I ran using the projectile weights of 29-30 grains traveling at velocities from 600 to 635 fps and using a BC of .130 seem to indicate that shooting these heavier cast bullets out of my 22 cal break barrel Gas-Spring air gun would yield ballistic performance close enough to some .25 caliber air rifle projectiles and velocities to make it worth while to try.

I used the ballistics calculator found here: http://www.handloads.com/calc/

On the left side of this web page there's a rudimentary BC calculator. How accurate are these calculation? I don't really know but, I used it to get the ".130 BC" number I entered in the BC field of the ballistics calculator.

Of course, all of this means nothing if I can't get them to shoot accurately or consistently. The point of this experimentation is to find a projectile/pellet/load that will retain adequate velocities and energy out to a hundred yards to take down a coyote; and hopefully print a minimum of a two inches at that distance.

HollowPoint

rsterne
11-17-2013, 05:01 PM
The drawing of your proposed .22 cal bullet is beautiful.... I would suggest that the deep, square-sided grooves will be VERY difficult to make and will tend to make the bullet stick in the mold/die.... In addition, your statement about the hollow base having more area for the air to push against, while true, doesn't matter.... The only force you are interested in is that which results in forward acceleration of the pellet (ie parallel to the boreline), which is set by the area of the bore.... Since .22 cal airgun barrels measure 0.217" (typically) that area is 0.037 sq.in. regardless of the shape of the pellet base....

Typical diablo pellets (waisted, with a skirt) are partially drag stablized, and the skirt is there to expand into the rifling grooves and provide a better seal in a process called "obturation".... Since the base of your boattail design is well clear of the bore, and there is equal pressure inside and outside the conical base cavity, no such expansion will take place.... Your bullet will have to rely completely on the twist rate of the rifling for stability.... The boattail reduces the stability of the bullet compared to a flat-based design of the same length.... I made some "guesstimates" of the dimensions of your bullet from the drawings, and what it would be as a flat-based design and put them into the Border Barrels Twist Calculator, with the following results for the stability in the worst case (just below Mach 1)....

Flat base - required twist about 19"
Boattail - required twist about 10"

Since most airgun barrels are around 16-18" twist, you may have a problem stabilizing the boattail in them.... Since you have the exact dimensions, you can use the Border Barrels website to experiment with various designs.... http://www.border-barrels.com/barrel_twist.htm

Interesting project, for sure.... I'm not trying to discourage you, just hopefully point out some possible pitfalls in the idea....

Bob

HollowPoint
11-17-2013, 06:24 PM
The drawing of your proposed .22 cal bullet is beautiful.... I would suggest that the deep, square-sided grooves will be VERY difficult to make and will tend to make the bullet stick in the mold/die.... In addition, your statement about the hollow base having more area for the air to push against, while true, doesn't matter.... The only force you are interested in is that which results in forward acceleration of the pellet (ie parallel to the boreline), which is set by the area of the bore.... Since .22 cal airgun barrels measure 0.217" (typically) that area is 0.037 sq.in. regardless of the shape of the pellet base....

Typical diablo pellets (waisted, with a skirt) are partially drag stablized, and the skirt is there to expand into the rifling grooves and provide a better seal in a process called "obturation".... Since the base of your boattail design is well clear of the bore, and there is equal pressure inside and outside the conical base cavity, no such expansion will take place.... Your bullet will have to rely completely on the twist rate of the rifling for stability.... The boattail reduces the stability of the bullet compared to a flat-based design of the same length.... I made some "guesstimates" of the dimensions of your bullet from the drawings, and what it would be as a flat-based design and put them into the Border Barrels Twist Calculator, with the following results for the stability in the worst case (just below Mach 1)....

Flat base - required twist about 19"
Boattail - required twist about 10"

Since most airgun barrels are around 16-18" twist, you may have a problem stabilizing the boattail in them.... Since you have the exact dimensions, you can use the Border Barrels website to experiment with various designs.... http://www.border-barrels.com/barrel_twist.htm

Interesting project, for sure.... I'm not trying to discourage you, just hopefully point out some possible pitfalls in the idea....

Bob


Hi Bob:

You haven't discouraged me. These types of replies happen virtually every time I post one of my ideas on this website. I've become accustomed to them.

The pellet/projectile images I posted were posted just to give everyone an idea of what I had in mind. The actual projectiles will be cast in a NOE 37 grain bullet mold and then swaged down to final form.

If it works as I hope it will, that will be great. If it doesn't work, so what; I can live with that. I won't know if it will or not unless I try it.

Sometimes it takes ignorant guys like myself to discover new things because the expertise of the "Experts" will not allow them to even try. It's much easier for them to politely state all the reasons why things won't work rather than taking the chance of failure themselves.

HollowPoint

rsterne
11-17-2013, 06:40 PM
I just hate to see people end up spending time and money and then being disappointed.... I've never been one to avoid trying new things, and I've had lots of disappointments as a result.... therefore, I try and help others avoid the same mistakes.... If that's not appreciated, I won't bother any more, as some people have to find out for themselves, and that's 100% OK with me.... This is the second time you've made a similar comment to me, so I just won't waste my time in future trying to "help" you....

Bob

HollowPoint
11-17-2013, 08:31 PM
Thank you Bob:

I appreciate that.

I've taken the liberty of creating a new Umarex Octane Air Rifle forum in the Yahoo Groups site of forums.

I couldn't find a whole lot of new information about this rifle in most of the places where I look on the web so I thought, "Why not start my own forum on this specific Air Gun?" Eventually I'll post pics of the inner workings of these Air Rifles as I wasn't able to find any such drawings anywhere else. I've just sort of had to figure it out on my own.

I'm hoping that over time it might attract new Umarex Octane users that are just as ignorant as myself and we can all start with a blank slate and work up from there.

I know that sounds more like a platitude than a sincere hope but, I do mean it. I'm no expert on air guns. I learn more from my mistakes than anything else. I too have made alot of mistakes and since it's my time and/or money I may be wasting I generally don't have a problem with it.

http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/umarexoctane/info

Since I still have to work to pay bills I'll be posting updates and photos of my modifications and home made ammo as time permits. I won't be posting any more replies on this thread. As it is I may have taken this particular thread to far off of its original path. My apologies to the OP.

At the moment there is one lone introductory topic that I started this afternoon. I'll be adding to that soon and I fully expect to be speaking to myself as the sole member of this forum for a while; maybe for a long while before anyone else chimes in.

HollowPoint

detox
11-27-2013, 12:16 PM
I have over 75lbs of assorted 22cal PCP air rifle pellets. My favorite is the Dymanic Sn2 (tin pellet) made by www.airgunpellets.com

http://www.airgunsofarizona.com/

IMO most air rifle barrels air too long/thin and resonate too much to achieve best accuracy. My shorter barreled (stiffer) Benjamin Marauder PCP pistol with shoulder stock is more accurate than my longer barreled Marauder PCP rifle...both are 22 caliber. But you will loose some velocity using shorter barrel.

W.R.Buchanan
11-28-2013, 04:59 AM
I like those Prometheus Pellets ! They are very similar to the English guys swaged pellets in one of the posts above. I'll have to try some.

You point about the short barrel is basically correct. Feinwerkbau had a target rifle once that had a barrel that was rifled for about the first 5" and the rest of the barrel was counterbored to about .30 cal. for the rest of it's length, and didn't touch the pellet. It's sole purpose was to have a place for the front sight.

Randy

GARD72977
12-06-2013, 01:41 PM
I was jut wondering what things you have discovered that the experts said would not work. The reason I ask is I cant see why you would not want to redesign the bullet or change the barrel to the correct twist?




Hi Bob:

You haven't discouraged me. These types of replies happen virtually every time I post one of my ideas on this website. I've become accustomed to them.

The pellet/projectile images I posted were posted just to give everyone an idea of what I had in mind. The actual projectiles will be cast in a NOE 37 grain bullet mold and then swaged down to final form.

If it works as I hope it will, that will be great. If it doesn't work, so what; I can live with that. I won't know if it will or not unless I try it.

Sometimes it takes ignorant guys like myself to discover new things because the expertise of the "Experts" will not allow them to even try. It's much easier for them to politely state all the reasons why things won't work rather than taking the chance of failure themselves.

HollowPoint

HollowPoint
12-07-2013, 01:02 PM
This sounds kind of like a "Setup" question so I'm not sure what answer I can give without opening a pandoras box of reprisal-replies.

I've never spoken to a real pellet designing expert. I don't even know if their is such a thing. I've read posts from those who have admirable amounts of general knowledge about ballistics in general but, that description fits a huge number of the bullet casters on this site.

One of the things I've discovered about online ballistics calculators is that because they are mathematically based they're generally pretty precise in their output provided you fill in the information fields with all the correct numbers.

The so called "Experts" rely heavily on these calculators and base their advice, comments, recommendations and criticisms on them. This is not a bad thing since, in place of hands-on experience, these calculators and their calculations is all that many of them have to go on.

The bad thing about them is that the mathematical precision they offer never take into consideration the actual integral shape-design of the bullet itself. They generally only go by weight, velocity and ambient environmental factors to output their recommendations as to "Rifling Twist" or ballistics charting. (bullet drop, energy, velocity down range, etc.)

Are you wanting me to "Redesign" my bullet or "Redesign" my ideas? I stated in one of my other replies that the computer generated images I posted were put there just to give an idea of what I had in mind. That appears to be a hurdle for some that they can't seem to get beyond. That is not Thee finished design I was working toward. It's simply a rendering of what I had in mind.

Wether my ideas pan out for me in the end isn't nearly as important to me as the ability to have an idea in the first place. And then proceed to see if it will work.

It's great when my ideas really do work out as I'd dreamed they would. In terms of hands-on experience gained, even failing to get an idea to work can be priceless if you look at it from learning point of view. In this sense, detractors are generally coming at it from things they've read. The failures in failed attempts are generally coming from things they've done; hands on.

One other thing I've learned that's not really anything I discovered; it's been there all along but, many of these mythical "Experts" seem unaware of it.

"I Can Do All Things Through Christ Who Strengthens Me" – Philippians 4:13

It's a great feeling when I get one of my ideas to work; especially when well meaning "Experts" have postulated otherwise.

I'm afraid that's the best answer I can come up with.

HollowPoint

GARD72977
12-07-2013, 01:43 PM
I was interested in your view on the length of the pellet compared to the accepted standard for twist. I thought from your response that you may have had luck going outside these guidelines. Your attitude toward this makes no sense to me.

HollowPoint
12-07-2013, 05:23 PM
I was interested in your view on the length of the pellet compared to the accepted standard for twist. I thought from your response that you may have had luck going outside these guidelines. Your attitude toward this makes no sense to me.

All things being equal; if a slightly longer than normal 22 caliber pellet of a slightly heavier weight will not stabilize when shot from a standard 1 in 16 twist barrel, there are usually two possible solutions to getting it to stabilize. One would be to swap your barrel for one with a slightly faster twist rate. The other would be to increase the velocity of the projectile; where possible.

In a similar manner, another way would be to leave the projectile in its slightly longer configuration while lowering the weight enough to sufficiently increase the velocity with your air-gun's existing velocity capability. Lighter pellets generally have higher velocities. It may only take a bit more velocity to get them to stabilize and stay stabilized out to the maximum range you intend to shoot.

This later option is the route I've taken in my attempts to get my pellet/bullet idea to work. This is accomplished by testing different dimensions in my hollow point cavities to get to the optimum weight and velocity to get my pellet design to work.

"Your attitude toward this makes no sense to me."

I'm not really sure what to make of this comment so I'll just leave it as it is. If I come across as having an attitude I hope you will forgive me. That was never my intent.

HollowPoint

W.R.Buchanan
12-08-2013, 07:09 PM
HP: I forgive you ,,, what were we talking about? :holysheep

Randy

HollowPoint
12-08-2013, 09:23 PM
Hi Randy:

I'm not really sure either. I think I'm coming across as having an "Attitude" about something. I tried re-reading my own posts to find out where or how exactly I conveyed an "Attitude" but, my own faults are harder for me to see than they are for others.

It's much easier for me to see other people's faults. I think it stems from readers interpreting my idea-posts as asking for help when in fact, I'm just posting my ideas and how I'm going about trying to bring them to fruition.

At any rate, I hope that all is well now.

Over N Out.

HollowPoint

GARD72977
12-09-2013, 05:01 PM
Sorry for the confusion. I only meant that I did not understand you attitude toward you project. I was not going to post anything else because I did not see my post as being productive. Just wanted to clear up my intentions. I wish you the best with you project.

W.R.Buchanan
12-09-2013, 11:52 PM
Good, now that we've got that all settled, lets move on.

I am interested in shooting some of the pellets like the English guy is making with his mould/swaging tool.

These pellets are shaped like the old Sheridan .20 cal. pellets from back when.

I wonder if there are .22 cal. versions of those pellets available from someone. I would want to try something close before investing in having a tool made to produce those pellets if they actually shot well in the R1. I want something in the 25-30 gr range and that type of pellet appears to be the only way to get there. The R1 certainly has the balls to move a heavy pellet like that with enough force to do real damage.

The Airgun AZ outfit only sells the weirdest Prometheus pellet that outfit makes, it's the all lead one that you have to center up in the chamber when you load it. I asked about the good one Prometheus makes and they said all they sold was what's on the site and didn't seem very interested in doing anything different. Too bad I would have bought some of the green ones. I don't know of another source for those pellets.

Does anyone else?

Randy

HollowPoint
12-10-2013, 11:39 AM
The pellets that the English guy makes are just Bore-Riders with a driving-band at the tail end to engage the rifling correct?

If so, I would think that making a mold or even a swaging die would be fairly simple. Just go on line and order a metric-ball-nose end mill as close to the smallest of your bore dimensions and viola, you have your own custom pellet reamer.

You can use the sprue-cutter-plate off of one of your other bullet molds; just make the blocks similar in shape to the mold you took the sprue cutter plate off of.

Once you drill your cavities with the ball-nose you can then go back and use a .2185" end mill to make the shallow cut to form the driving band at the heel of your pellet. If you want to get creative; and to adjust the weight of your home-made pellets, you can hollow point them with an adjustable hollow-pointing spud.

HollowPoint

W.R.Buchanan
12-10-2013, 02:01 PM
Yes HP: would like to "try" some of these pellets before buying or building a die.

I can make the die and have no problem in that area since I own a Machine shop, however I hate building things that don't work.

Would like to try some first to see if the guns will shoot them good enough to be worth the effort of making the die.

Randy

HollowPoint
12-11-2013, 08:55 PM
Have you tried an inquiry at any one of the air rifle forums? That would be the higher probability place to find what you're looking for.

As for me, I need all the machining practice I can get so I try making my own even if it means failure. If I do mess it up (and I usually do) I usually get it right by the third try.

I finished up my first attempt at making a more efficient 22 caliber air gun pellet/bullet and it turned out that my bore dimensions were off by just enough that I had to push real hard to get them to chamber.

Since I'll be shooting heavier pellets/bullets which will already cause me to loose velocity, a heavy and tight fitting pellet/bullet just wouldn't do. I ran out of drill rod on that first attempt. I've since ordered more. Now it's just a matter of getting some free time to give another go.

While I was waiting for my order of drill rod to arrive I worked on some Power-Output modifications. I tested them today with some promising results. Those modifications still need one last tweak and they'll be ready for final testing.

HollowPoint

reed1911
12-15-2013, 11:21 AM
Just a thought, This guy makes pure lead cast bullets for air rifles http://www.mrhollowpoint.com/mediac/450_0/media/6415892d980887bdffff8068ffffd502.jpg and http://www.mrhollowpoint.com/mediac/450_0/media/9937a885f22ce181ffff822effffd523.jpghttp://www.mrhollowpoint.com/mediac/450_0/media/99b697b734340e3ffff8115ffffd502.jpg

W.R.Buchanan
12-15-2013, 02:27 PM
Reed: so who is he?

Randy

RoyEllis
12-15-2013, 04:42 PM
Reed: so who is he?

Randy

Those come from mrHollowpoint.com I think, look just like theirs anyway......$20 per 50ct bag:holysheep

W.R.Buchanan
12-15-2013, 05:41 PM
Found him! very proud of those little boolits ain't he.

Randy

reed1911
12-16-2013, 12:22 PM
Yes, mrhollowpoint.com

I got some of the 26g and 30g. I have not had a chance to chrono them, but in my little beeman they are accurate at 30yds, soap tests are not very good. I have proper gelatin, but sometimes grabbing a couple of new soap bars is easier and they generally react the same. No expansion from my rifle, but it only launches the lite bullets at 900 or so, so I'm likely not pushing them hard enough to do much.

Got them on a whim, I ordered some 30 cal to paper patch and shoot subsonic through a suppressor for testing an idea so I threw them into the mix for the hell of it.

reed1911
12-16-2013, 12:23 PM
Yes, mrhollowpoint.com

I got some of the 26g and 30g. I have not had a chance to chrono them, but in my little beeman they are accurate at 30yds, soap tests are not very good. I have proper gelatin, but sometimes grabbing a couple of new soap bars is easier and they generally react the same. No expansion from my rifle, but it only launches the lite bullets at 900 or so, so I'm likely not pushing them hard enough to do much.

Got them on a whim, I ordered some 30 cal to paper patch and shoot subsonic through a suppressor for testing an idea so I threw them into the mix for the hell of it.