Super slow, super light, 308

[DeanWinchester]

I've got a Lee 100g plain base that I'd like to push through my 308. If I can find an accurate load in the speed range I'm wanting, it'd be an awesome load for rabbit or even squirrels, as well as other close range edibles that need to be taken relatively quietly.
I'd like to get it down around 800-900 fps using Unique. I don't wanna mess with fillers or powder positioners. I guess I'm a big coward and afraid to get down too low. How far down would you go with Unique in an 18 inch/ 10 twist barrel? I'm thinking maybe 5.0-6.0 grains???


I don't HAVE to use unique, I have bullseye and green dot too. I just really like using it.


Thanks.

[rattletrap1970]

You are going to reach a point where the twist of the rifle will not stabilize a bullet that is too wrong for the twist.

[felix]

OK at 5 or 6 grains Unique. You won't like the accuracy unless a toilet paper wad is used to hold the powder against the primer, which should be the softest pistol primer you can find provided your firing pin is long enough. If you raise the gun before firing and then gently repositioning, then toilet paper MIGHT NOT be required for satisfaction. 700x and Herco both have the largest flakes of any powder I have used, and both tend to stay put as a result, especially behind a loosely, very loosely TP waddled-up wad. ... felix

[DeanWinchester]

Hmm, that's what I was afraid of. Wonder if Trail Boss might be a little better? I have that too.

[DeanWinchester]

You are going to reach a point where the twist of the rifle will not stabilize a bullet that is too wrong for the twist.
Even at near point blank ranges? Say 25-30 yards or so? I haven't seen ANYTHING this rifle won't shoot well, so far. I loaded some 110g jacketed soft points and at 50 yards they shot quite well. Just very loud and way too fast.

[45 2.1]

Use the BE

[felix]

Try the Trail Boss and report back. Try it both ways: with and without TP. Yep, twist won't matter much, if at all, at 50-100 feet with such a light boolit.
No reason not to try any powder faster than BlueDot with the TP especially. BE is softer than 700X and should be fine. Might have to play with primers more when using small grained powders without TP. Might have to go down to 3.5 grains to get pellet gun report. An 18 inch barrel is too short for being real quiet. ... felix

[DeanWinchester]

We shall see........

[rosst]

the only problem i see with the light shortish boolits is the huge jump before it hits the rifling . . . your rifle may tolerate it mine did'nt, good luck.

[Hammerhead]

A 1:16 barrel will stabilize a .308" 100-115 grain cast bullet just fine at 900 fps. I'm sure a 1:10 barrel will too. Trail Boss is terrific for that application.
In 30-30, 6 grains TB will reach 1000 fps with a 100 grainer and give about 60% load density and very consistent speeds.

In .308 I would start at 6 grain TB and work up if necessary.

[felix]

Probably work down and not up at 6 TB. Velocity is not the problem per se, noise is. There is enough weight in that boolit to kill anything in the back yard at 750 fps or even lower. ... felix

[DeanWinchester]

Felix gets it! Lol!

I think sometimes a slow moving boolit doesn't get the credit it deserves. Speed isn't everything.

[45 2.1]

A lot has been written about this subject. The following link has some of it. Re-inventing the wheel isn't necessary.
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/small_charges.htm

[Outpost75]

FWIW:

For small game loads I use 3 grains of Bullseye in the 7.62x39, 4 grains in the .30-30, 5 grains in the .303 British or .30-40 Krag and 6 grains in the .30-'06 with #3118 or Saeco #322.

[badgeredd]

I'd use 4 grains of BE with a TP wad and work down to see how low you can go. I use a load in a 30 Wildcat of 2 grains BE under a 100 grain cast with a light dryer lint wad. 600 to 625 out of a 18 inch barrel and a real hoot to shoot.

Edd

[felix]

Excellent, Bob, and thanks! ... felix

P.S. Reinventing the wheel is what this board is all about, isn't it? Of course, you know that by the typical questions continually asked. ... felix

[Hammerhead]

disregard.

[Larry Gibson]

Use 3.2 gr Bullseye. It will put the bullet in the 800 - 900 fps range with excellent accuracy. A 10 or 12" twist will stabilize that bullet just fine. Suggest dedicated fire formed cases with the flash holes drilled out (#30 to #28 works fine) to avoid shoulder set back and related case headspace problems from repeated firings. No wad or filler is needed.

Larry Gibson

[DeanWinchester]

Use 3.2 gr Bullseye. It will put the bullet in the 800 - 900 fps range with excellent accuracy. A 10 or 12" twist will stabilize that bullet just fine. Suggest dedicated fire formed cases with the flash holes drilled out (#30 to #28 works fine) to avoid shoulder set back and related case headspace problems from repeated firings. No wad or filler is needed.

Larry Gibson


Now how'd you know I went shot twenty pcs of brass last night just for this little experiment? I happened upon 20 pcs of BHC match at the range a while back and wondered what to do with them. Loaded a stiff charge of 2015 under a 147g FMJ and fire formed them last night.
Collet neck size, Mdie, the Ill use a factory crimp die to close the bell, but NOT crimp.

I will post results next week when I can get to the range. Thanks everyone.

[paul h]

You can definately throttle back a centerfire rifle to a capgun like report. No idea what the velocity is, but I was penetrating 1/2 way through a phone book with my 35 whelen using a cut down 22 short case as a powder scoop. When I backed down even more I heard a metalic foomp sound and the bullet never left the muzzle. The good thing about soft slugs is they are easy to push out of the bore when you get them stuck.

Hmm, haven't played with mouse phart loads in a while, need to see what I can do with the 350 rem mag and 105 gr lee swc's.

[sthwestvictoria]

In the 30-30 i use the Lee TL-314-90-SWC with 7.0 grains trail boss. Velocity is supersonic at 1470fps. However accuracy if excellent -holes touching at 50 metres in my 1894. Emphatic and humane kill on rabbit sized game.

[badgeredd]

When I backed down even more I heard a metalic foomp sound and the bullet never left the muzzle. The good thing about soft slugs is they are easy to push out of the bore when you get them stuck.


I was told by some friends (?) this last summer that is technically called "fire slugging."

Edd

[Lonegun1894]

I have gone as low as 1.5grs Unique, but prefer 2.7grs Unique doing this in .30-30, .308, and .30-06, and using various boolit weights between 100grs and 170grs. Just make sure they clear the barrel, because in some of my guns even a 1.5gr load clears the muzzle while in others even 2.5 doesn't always make it, which is why I just go for the 2.7 so I know it will work in all of mine. As has been said, a longer barrel is quieter, so my 20" .30-30 is louder than my 26" .30-06. Just experiment and see what happens, but experiment in small increments. With fast powders like Unique, BE, etc, I really think the main danger is getting a bullet stuck when you get too low and then firing another, so just be careful of that. I don't think there is a danger of SEE with the fast powders like there is with slow rifle powders.

[DeanWinchester]

Okay, so I was too lazy to dig my bullseye out. It was in the back of the cabinet and Trail Boss was staring me in the face, so I started there. I started at 4.0g and plan to work down now. Noise was a little more than I wanted BUT I shot several .22LR CCI minimags for a noise level reference and they were decidedly louder, so it wasnt bad at all. I didnt need my earmuffs. I shot groups at 30 yards. They averaged about an inch and a half. Not bad considering I was shootin off the gearbox of a bushhog. Not exactly the most comfortable of rests.
I also did a redneck drop test by shooting at 75 yards, over a lake. I shot at a stump on the other side of the lake and the boolit hit the water at about 60 yards. No problems exiting the barrel! I'm going to work down in .2g increments and see what happens.
The bottom shot was an acceptable flyer, my knee slid off the bush hog deck. I think grouping would be better if I controlled the powder charge a little better too. I just found a dipper that made 4g and ran with it. I also had considerable trouble seating the boolits straight. They wanted to cock to one side. I ended up using my 35 remington seating die to get them straighter. The 308 die just wont screw down far enough. all in all, I feel im on the right path. I'll try Bullseye along with the next lot I load.
http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd371/Reloadingfool/photo_zps147cc957.jpg



This rifle is sighted in at 50 yards using a 170g boolit a little over 2K fps. I didnt think the change in POI was bad at all.

[Hammerhead]

That looks like a winner.

[Bret4207]

"Not bad considering I was shootin off the gearbox of a bushhog." "The bottom shot was an acceptable flyer, my knee slid off the bush hog deck."

Read those lines and knew there was hope for ya! HAR!

Not sure it would help, but years back Jim Carmichael (is he still alive) did an article in Handloader where he put an altered 223 case INSIDE a 308 case and fireformed the whole shebang to create a 308 case with a much smaller capacity.