Thoughts? Breech Seating 45-70 Reloads

[John Boy]

The thought came up, why not fill the case, cap it with a fiber wad and give it a try breech seating a 45-70 reload with either a PP or GG bullet. The Sharps & HiWall would easily cam the ogive into the leading bore cut with a plugged case. And the extra powder would yield a higher subsonic velocity and a lower trajectory out to 1000yds. One case instead of hauling a 100 round box of fixed reloads to the range.

I wanted to see how many grains is in a case loaded to the lips ...

Would you believe 84grs of vibrated KIK FFg! I'd guess that's probably in the 1400+ fps range with no compression! And a good possibly it would still be under 28,000 psi for a 45-70

Principle ... Breech seated reloads are more accurate than fix cartridge loads when seated with 1/16" of the base in the chamber and a capped case up against the base. Harry Pope & Doc Hudson primarily shot matches with breech seated bullets with exceptional accuracy

[Old-Win]

Milton Farrow was probably one the first, if not thee first, to breech seat bullets ahead of a case of bp in his 38-55. He also at times shot with an airspace in his fixed ammo. I don't know what he did when he shot on the LR U.S. rifle team. Check out his book on "How I Became A Crack Shot." It might give you some insight. Bob

[Don McDowell]

It will work, many schuetzen shooters do that, but then they don't have the time constraints that a typical bpcr match does.
Roberts explained in his Schuetzen rifle book that by using only 3 or 4 cases a man could better afford to shoot that type of match than the Creedmoor and other such matches that requires quite a bit of already loaded ammo. He also detailed how many shooters of that time also had at least a 1/16 gap between the wad and the base of the bullet.
It also takes some specialized equipment and bullets. After all you're not going to get a lyman postel far enough into the bore to allow a full length case full to the brim with powder and wad to chamber. And with out the proper tools and precise fit to align the bullet with the bore and the case with the base of the bullet, you will likely end up with several "wild" shots.
Kurt has used breech seating in some of his rifles, hopefully he'll see this and chime in.

[Lead pot]

First of all, John--John I'm sorry too have missed shooting with both of you guys. The shake down run with the new camper developed a suspension problem that made it tough on the Toll way roads with the big trucks pushing it around.

John, Don is right about the GG bullets. It would be almost impossible to seat a bullet pushing it in with a loaded case with just using your thumb. It would have to be seated using one of the Pope palm seating tools or one like the photo below that I use. Even a PP bullet that is patched tight to bore using a tube to soften the fouling makes it hard to seat the patched bullet. Also seating a patched bullet with out using a tool like the one below chances are that you will damage the patch fumbling with it seating it in the chamber and pushing it over the 45 degree chamber end into the throat. I think that is why some used the cross patch with a false muzzle seating a patched bullet over a loaded cartridge like they use for muzzle loaders.
There is definitely an advantage using a breach seating tool especially shooting a GG or PP bullet in the now standard chambers that have that 45 degree chamber end that deforms the GG bullet and tears the patch off a pp bullet as it passes over that what I call a wall at the chamber end. Using a breach seating tool the bullet is in perfect alignment with the bore and it gets minimal deforming as it expands because it's not in the case and swagged back down as it passes into the throat.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b302/940Leadpot/IMG_1186.jpg (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/940Leadpot/media/IMG_1186.jpg.html)

Kurt

[Kenny Wasserburger]

As Kurt and Don pointed out cant cam a GG bullet into the rifling that far unless throated rounds, works great with smokless as you have a clean case to reload, not so easy with a sooted up BP Case, Time constrants would factor this out. If it worked people would be using it at matches. Perhaps attending a match would enlighting some back yard shooters to the factors that come into play in an actual match.

Accuracy gains that you mention are there course those guys shoot 200 yards mostly. Bore riding PP loads come very close to what your suggesting, but the time required to de-cap clean the case and refill? under time, Not one bit practical.

KW
The Lunger

[Old-Win]

I think it could be done but not by reloading a single case. If you had a loading block with your filled cases and your bullets wrapped and ready to go, It shouldn't add more than about 3 minutes to a 10 shot course. I would wipe twice and then insert the bullet in the seater, but not use one like Kurt has shown. I would use a push seater with a long handle and have it adjusted so it pushed the bullet just ahead of the case. You shouldn't need a lot of camming action with a diapered bullet at bore diameter. Then insert the loaded case and you should be ready for your next shot. A .030 fiber wad would be needed at the end of the case to keep your powder stack consistant. I just wonder if your compression will be the same from shot to shot and things start going down the tubes at the longer distances. Swiss 1 1/2 would be a good powder choice as all it needs is to be snugged up a little. I use .050" Bob

[Kenny Wasserburger]

85234



This group was shot in competition with fixed Ammo as shown too the left.

It still stands as a world record, in the 5@200 Match with PP.

I think I will stick to doing it this way, as that ammo has won----national-regional Championships and set several world-National Records.

The Lunger
KW

[Lead pot]

Bob.

That breach seater just cams in the bullet not the loaded round just like the push seater Pope tool. The advantage of the seater I use it protects the patch because it gets pushed out of a tight fitting sleeve (the case) that is in line with the bore. It protects the bullet patch as much as Kenny's deep seated bullet. The Pope tool does not protect the patch when it gets pushed in the throat.
When I breach seat my bullets PP bullets are groove diameter or at least .002" over bore diameter so it gets the least amount of distortion when the charge goes off and obdurate the soft or hard lead bullet.
I think this could be used during a creedmoor match because of the very long time period you have to get ten shots off plus the sighters. You will lose some of the time you use for condition changes maybe.
The Accuracy you get seating the bullet is great shooting 200 yards or 1200 yds. It's awful hard to say that a breach seated bullet that leaves the muzzle looking like this wont shoot straight.


http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/th_IMG_1292_zpse54c63f5.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/IMG_1292_zpse54c63f5.jpg.html)
Or one that is under bore diameter seated .250" inside the case and goes into the lead out of line. Here is a photo of the same bullet that was .0015 under bore diameter. The deep seated bullet I loaded finger seated in the case.
This I have yet to find with a recovered breach seated bullet.
http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/th_IMG_0337.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/IMG_0337.jpg.html)
here is the other side of that bullet.
http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/th_IMG_0336.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/IMG_0336.jpg.html)

[Gunlaker]

I've shot my Browning BPCR with breech seated bore diameter paper patched bullets and found no accuracy improvement over standard loads.

I do have a .38-55 that I breech seat with 58gr of Goex FFg Express and a Brooks elliptical bullet patched to bore diameter. I made a crude adjustable push seater for it. The rifle is very accurate to 200m which is as far as I've shot it.

Chris.

[Gunlaker]

If I was going to breech seat greasers I'd get Russ Weber to make me one of his breech seaters and get a custom tapered mould made. Buffalo Arms has a tapered version of their Creedmoor bullet for breech seating, but only in .38 cal. That one shoots pretty well out of my CPA, maybe a .45-70 version of the same bullet would be a good place to start.

[Old-Win]

Hi Kurt,
I made a breech seater like the one shown in BPCN that went along with an article on Milton Farrow. I thought it might be a little faster than the Russ Weber but they both do the same thing. Works well with a scoped rifle.
Let's see, only 6+ months til Lodi, what am I going to do all winter? I'm in withdrawal. Bob

[Lead pot]

Missed you and Mike at Lodi last fall Bob.
I have two of Russ's seaters. I suggested to Russ to make the second seater so I can cam it to the left for the scope because the hammer interfered when using it with a scope.

[country gent]

WHile I have not tried breech seating yet I have been interested inthe process and am studing up on it. This post is very interesting so far

[wch]

Suggest that any of you with unanswered questions tale a close look at the ASSRA.com forum: (American Single Shot Rifle Association).