trouble with a 1894 marlin in .41 mag

[45 acp]

This gun will not cycle swc boolits reliably. The front driving band gets hung up.
What. Are you using for a boolit ?

[Dan Cash]

My 94 is a .32-20, not a 44 but it handles round nose flat poionts well. Perhahps yours would too.

[Pb2au]

What mold are you using?
I would consider doing some comparisons with other SWC designs and see if they feed any better. I only load for 45 colt otherwise I would be happy to send you some samples.
Unless you are fixed on the SWC plan, Dan's suggestion is a good one too. Those round nose flat points in most chamberings hit like a truck and provide pretty good terminal performance to boot.
Good luck, let us know what we can do to help.

[searcher4851]

The gun is obviously nothing but trouble. To save you any more problems, I would be happy to take it off your hands for a reasonable price.

[TheGrimReaper]

The gun is obviously nothing but trouble. To save you any more problems, I would be happy to take it off your hands for a reasonable price.

Exactly what I was thinking!!!

[Capt. Methane]

Don't give up!

Love my little lever gun but it was designed for factory JSP's it seems, the LSWC's aren't very good in it though if you actuate it smartly they will go...sometimes.

For cast bullets the LFN profile works well-I haven't shot many of them but so far so good-mine came from Beartooth Bullets.

You may want to take a look at a GB running right now (but supposed to close soon) for a 230 gr NOE .412 mold, I believe it will work.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?144103-NOE-LFN-41mag-GB

These should be good to go in the Marlin!

[45 acp]

Exactly what I was thinking!!!

Don't hold your breath . I just picked this up and haven't loaded anything for it
Just rouds that are for my redhawk. The mold is a saeco.

[felix]

My Marlin 41 mag REQUIRES 413 boolits. ... felix

Besides that, the gun is freebored for 0.200 at 413. It appears the 41 mag case can be extended as per 445 specs a'la' DanWesson in that gun. The downside would be the cartridge would require deep boolit seating for the bolt to pick up a round from the magazine and thrust it into the chamber with no hiccups. Winchester 94s have longer actions and would therefore have less trouble with longer rounds. I am surprised they have not met the challenge of making a 41 mag for competitive sales against the Marlin. ... felix

[searcher4851]

Ok, since you've declined my kind offer to take that problematic gun off your hands, here's my OTHER advice. RNFP boolits are a levegun's friend. I've got several levers in various calibers (though not in .41 mag, which I would love to have) and they all seem to enjoy RNFPs. I've got a couple that will feed SWCs but will have the occasional feeding issue with them, but RNFPs just feed slicker than snot.

[Oldtimer45]

I have the same problem. RNFP or single shot. I use a 240 gr. LBT,it will make holes in 1/4 inch mild steel.

[JayinAZ]

I shoot a 265 gr RNFP I had Dan at Mountain Molds make for me a few years ago. It feeds pretty well.

[runfiverun]

have you tried seating them so the front drive band is about flush with the case mouth?
I do this with some 45 colt and 44 mag boolits and my lever gun will feed them fine this way but not seated out.

http://s417.photobucket.com/user/_DnA_/media/NewBitmapImage_zpscf4c8668.png.html?sort=3&o=1

but just in case, this is a preliminary drawing I just sent to someone interested in starting up making molds.
the nose might need a tick shortened but the weight is certainly correct and it will fill the gap in the marlins. [just need to measure some revolvers for oal]

[felix]

Shape the nose more like a sierra condom length and add gas check (416) for microgroove cleanliness. 220 grains is all that is needed. ... felix

[W.R.Buchanan]

All you need to do is chamfer the chamber mouth .040.050 and our problem will be solved.

I have written about this here many times.

This one will cycle anything as fast as you can operate the lever.

With SWC's the ledge on the boolit gets caught on the sharp edge of the chamber mouth. (Also true of Wide Flat Nose boolits) Chamfering it eliminates this problem. This does the same thing as chamfering the chamber mouths on a Revolver cylinder so that rounds find the hole easier.

I guarantee this will fix your problem.

Randy

[felix]

Very good idea, Randy! I never looked that closely at the barrel's chamber end. Marlin, shame on you!!! ... felix

[HATCH]

I just shoot FPRN boolits and they function just fine for me.

[Salmoneye]

Truncated Cone.

[45 acp]

I guess I need to start looking for another mould

Thanks everyone

[JayinAZ]

All you need to do is chamfer the chamber mouth .040.050 and our problem will be solved.

I have written about this here many times.

This one will cycle anything as fast as you can operate the lever.

With SWC's the ledge on the boolit gets caught on the sharp edge of the chamber mouth. (Also true of Wide Flat Nose boolits) Chamfering it eliminates this problem. This does the same thing as chamfering the chamber mouths on a Revolver cylinder so that rounds find the hole easier.

I guarantee this will fix your problem.

Randy

What's the best way to do that, Randy?

[Capt. Methane]

Okay Randy, I'll buy that as a fix but I'm with Jay-how do you accomplish that? Specific angle of the chamfer?

[Groo]

Groo here
The lever gun was never designed to shoot a swc.
A tc or rnfp will feed correctly, just be sure that the over all length is not over 1.60in as marlins are length senstive.
Many cast bollets are made for Rugers and will not fit shorter cylinders or lever guns.
The nose to crimp length needs to be about .30in .

[felix]

The nose to crimp length needs to be about .30in . ... GROO

True! ... felix

[denul]

I have an 1994S model, and know nothing of its previous owner(s). I was sure when I got it that I'd have to modify it to feed my favorite 41 cast boolits. The longest of these is a Keith design in a Mihec 4 cavity labeled 41 - 258; its about 213 gr with large hp pins, and crimped in the groove, gives an OAL of 1.710 in. Another LBT lfn 220 gr is almost as long.Because of previous posts here, i knew that such a long cartridge would never feed, or eject, and that I'd have to modify the back of the lifter, or what I call the lifter. My calling it that doesn't make it a lifter, but it does lift the loaded round into position for chambering. Could be a carrier, because you could say it carries the loaded round, I don't know. Anyway I was sure I'd also have to chamfer the chamber mouth to accomodate the Keith SWC, because inspection shows that has not been done to the rifle for sure. Not knowing enough to name the parts, let alone modify them, I was resigned to the need of finding someone to do the work, when I stumbled upon a post here about clearing Marlin jams. I reasoned that a jam clearing takedown might be one way to better learn about the workings of the rifle. Actually, it was laziness, not reason, that led to the decision to try the longer rounds. Given my skill level, I'd just as well try to build the thing from scratch, as to reassemble it. I was astonished by the result.

The Marlin feeds the longest Keith, and the very short factory rounds, and everything in between without a hitch, and ejects all loaded rounds perfectly. I have inspected the lifter,or carrier, and it doesn't seem to have been modified, but how could I tell? I have nothing to compare it to. This rifle was hard enough to come by; I'm not thinking to get another to compare parts or procedures that I cannot even describe.
This experience has left me with an peculiar notion, most likely wrong, which I will pass along for rejection or ridicule. If persons unknown modified the lifter or whatever it is, allowing it to carry a longer cartridge into place for chambering, that might have changed the alignment of the cartridge enough to prevent the SWC shoulder from hanging up on the unchamfered mouth. That would mean that the lifter modification would have killed two birds with one stone, allowing both longer cartridges and shouldered bullets to feed. It was a pleasant surprise to find this rifle would shoot so well,against all the experience posted here, with no modifications that I can show or prove. The remaining mystery is why anyone would part with such a rifle after fixing it so well.

Will Rodgers said that there is no one more ignorant than someone outside the field they are educated in, and I'm pretty far away from the gunsmithing field. So take this all with a grain of salt.

[45 2.1]

The nose to crimp length needs to be about .30in . ... GROO

True! ... felix

Meplat to crimp groove... 0.300", As cast 0.4125" which grows to 0.413"..... already been shooting it in a 1894 Marlin 41 Mag for a couple of years.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?174781-MiHec-2-or-4-cavity-brass-411640-Cramer-HP

[W.R.Buchanan]

The specific angle doesn't matter, try a 90 degree countersink 1/2" in dia. 82* would also work just fine. Then you will need to make an extension for it out of a piece of 1/2" rod with a 3/8" hole in one end and a set screw to hold the CSK. Or whatever size the CSK shank is.

A Severance multi flute is the best one to use. I used a 5/8" CSK because My gun is a .44. You just have to get a CSK that is bigger than the hole you're trying to do.

Then you take the bolt out of the gun and go after the end of the barrel JUDICIOUSLY until you have enough chamfer. A .44 case has a extractor groove that is .060 wide so as long as you are below that you'll be fine. Pretty sure the .41 is the same in that regard. It almost impossible to measure this accurately, you can use a piece of 1/16" rod to gage how wide the chamfer is . When it is the same width as the rod ,,, you're done.

If you leave a bunch of tool marks on the cut then go after it with some 400 grit sandpaper on a stick to polish out the marks. It will work best if the chamfer is smooth.

I recommend that you do this by hand since the barrel material is pretty soft and you aren't taking that much metal off the edge of the chamber mouth, and if it takes you 10 minutes to creep up on it,,, so what? I actually scraped the first one I did with the sharpened end of a triangle file. So it is not that hard to do.

My 1894 CB will shuck my assortment of dummy rounds, both specials and magnums mixed together with different boolits thru the gun as fast as you can operate the lever. There is a mix of Wide Flat nosed and semi wadcutters and some round nosed ones as well.

How I figured this out was by watching some Beartooth WFNs get hung up by digging the edge of the boolit into the chamber mouth. When the edge is broken there is nothing to gouge into the boolit. Just try it you'll immediately see what is going on. The boolit would dig into the chamber at about the 10 and 2 o'clock positions simply because the cartridge lifter pushes the cartridge up against the top of the receiver, as it is shoved forward into the chamber,,, normally it relies on the rounded nose of the boolit to guide it down into the chamber. Obviously if it is not rounded then it will get hung up.

With SWC's almost the same thing happens except the nose of the boolit makes it into the chamber before the sharp edge of the boolits ledge gets hung up on the sharp edge of the chamber mouth.

Eliminating the sharp edge fixes all this since there is no longer a sharp edge on the chamber mouth to gouge into the soft lead boolits.

Resigning yourself to living with this problem and shooting only RN boolits, when it can be fixed in 10 minutes is just limiting the capabilities of your gun.

Just look at all of the neato styles of boolits there are. Why limit yourself to one style.

Also one last point. My .44 Magnum loads with 429244 crimped in the groove are 1.665 -670 long and they still feed just fine.

By simply filing or milling the step on the lifter back .125 the gun will feed just about any .44 round known to man.(some Garrett loads made for RedHawks won't chamber due to the excessive length of the boolits.).

Marlins are not particularly length sensitive since they are designed to feed Specials and Magnums. They will even feed Russians if you have some. Kind of like how a Marlin 39A will feed Shorts, Longs, and Long Rifles. The .22 cal. action looks a little different inside but it works exactly the same way as every other Marlin Lever action works.

Randy

[MGD]

Removed my lifter, then filed back the cartridge stop till a Lyman 410459 did not overhang the front of the lifter. The gun cycles great if kept in firing position, when canted and cycled it will jam. Occasionally a round will catch and relaxing pressure on the lever then finishing the cycle fixes it. I shoot mostly Semi-wadcutters through my Marlin 41 mag. I can also use my 410426 240 gr RN, I use the same top punch as the SWC when sizing and I get enough of a meplat that they work fine.

[runfiveslittlegirl]

great thread and a lot of good information that carries over to the win model 92's here.

[TNsailorman]

Truncated cone bullet is the way to go for levers as well as revolvers. They have proven more accurate for me in the .41 mag. than the 210 grain SWC's that I have tried. I think the beveled breech would also work if the angle is right. Just guessing on that though. james

[felix]

I am beginning to agree with your Truncated cone idea. I have been gifted a mold to make 190 grainers WITHOUT any kind of crimp groove. They print mighty fine in each of the Smith57 revolter, first issue RugerBlackHawk, and Davidson'sMarlinCowboy. Only about 30K loads have been used so far with that boolit. I am well pleased. The bearing surface needs to be 413 for the Marlin to prevent accuracy failure. ... felix

[Uncle Grinch]

All you need to do is chamfer the chamber mouth .040.050 and our problem will be solved.

I have written about this here many times.

This one will cycle anything as fast as you can operate the lever.

With SWC's the ledge on the boolit gets caught on the sharp edge of the chamber mouth. (Also true of Wide Flat Nose boolits) Chamfering it eliminates this problem. This does the same thing as chamfering the chamber mouths on a Revolver cylinder so that rounds find the hole easier.

I guarantee this will fix your problem.

Randy

I used Randy's fix on my Marlin 41 mag is it now feeds SWC with no problem.

There is a thread somewhere that I started some time ago about it.

[schutzen]

You guys are cruel. At least 6 times I have missed a nice 1894 in .41Mag. I envy you with your feeding problems. Oh well, someday I will find a good lever .41. In the mean time everyone of you needs to shoot and enjoy yours.