a little to close for comfort

[Lloyd Smale]

friend just sent me this. A friend of our is a black bear guide. they took 16 bear this year and used a guide gun he picked up at the beginning of season as his back up gun and said he had to put down 12 of the sixteen shot with it. Got a little close to one that still had some spunk left in it. Those are teeth marks in his stock!!!! said another one had a hold of his dog and he tripped trying to get to the dog and fell right by the bear and had to shoot it up the tail pipe. Same guy has about a one foot long scar up his leg from dealing with a wounded boar! hes alot of fun!!!

[44man]

:mrgreen: Sounds like he needs a spear!

[Goat]

Are the hunters that bad with thier shooting that the guide had to finnish off 12 of 16 bear taken or are they using an improper load/caliber combination?? Glad your friend is still in one piece.
Goat

[JeffinNZ]

What the hell was he doing poking it with THAT end of the gun!?

[Blammer]

lol

''poking it with that end of the gun...." too funny!

[Lloyd Smale]

bow hunters! mostly ones that shouldnt be allowed to carry a bow!!
Are the hunters that bad with thier shooting that the guide had to finnish off 12 of 16 bear taken or are they using an improper load/caliber combination?? Glad your friend is still in one piece.
Goat

[Dutch4122]

bow hunters! mostly ones that shouldnt be allowed to carry a bow!!


Unfortunately we seem to have too many like that here in Michigan:groner:

[dubber123]

Unfortunately we seem to have too many like that here in Michigan:groner:

And Vermont. They take their bow out the day before season, and if 2 out of the 3 arrows they shoot, (which are never the same as the ones they hunt with, hit a haybale at 15 feet, they declare themselves "tuned up", and are ready to hunt. Also the same guys that will shoot and not even go look unless it falls down immediately.:roll:

[44man]

I think you will find they use super fast bows with super light arrows and tiny broadheads. The new wave of bowhunters using target equipment on big game. They think speed and energy will kill without weight and penetration.
I would think the outfitter would specify bow poundage and arrow weight plus broadhead size and type before risking his life.

[Ammohouse]

Thats the problem with alot of bow hunters, they just don't want to put in the time to practice.
For me, I love to shoot my bow so why wouldn't I go out an practice. My son has started shooting with me a little so that makes it even better.
I'm sure the same can be said with alot of gun hunters too, they don't shoot as much as they should.
Either way, cool picture and great story.

[LET-CA]

That rifle stock should be part of his introductory interview with each new hunter he takes into the filed. And, as he hands them the chewed up rifle; "Yes, those are teeth marks."

Are you confident enough in your bow-hunting skills to ensure that a live bear isn't going to get "up close and personal" with you after you take a shot? No? Maybe you should spend a little more time on the range. . .

Great story! Glad it has a happy ending. (thus far)

[fatnhappy]

There has to be an easier way to make money.

[454PB]

Here in Montana during archery season, two bow hunters were attacked by a bear. One of them used pepper spray to shoo it away, but it then returned to finish mauling them. Luckily one of them had a .44 magnum revolver and killed the bear. There have now been 6 bear attacks within about a 15 mile radius in that area. Most recently a California hunter received one swipe from a bear's paw and it removed one eyeball and did other serious facial damage. Our wildlife department is encouraging all hunters to carry bear spray. Yeah---Right! Those bears use it for seasoning on the hunters they eat.

[44man]

Ammohouse, you miss the point. You can be the best shot in the world but if you use the wrong equipment you won't kill doodle.
Archery equipment is even more critical then poor gun selection. You need heavy arrows and as much speed as you can drive them with perfect flight. You need heads with a large cutting diameter.
That crap of shooting a toothpick at 310 fps with paper energy does not work. Those light arrows stop RIGHT NOW when game is hit.
Another thing guys don't know is when a release is used, bow weight and penetration is reduced over finger shooting.
I would rather have a 650 gr arrow going slow then a 300 gr going fast at the same energy.
Does this sound like familiar?

[Bass Ackward]

friend just sent me this. A friend of our is a black bear guide. they took 16 bear this year and used a guide gun he picked up at the beginning of season as his back up gun and said he had to put down 12 of the sixteen shot with it. Got a little close to one that still had some spunk left in it. Those are teeth marks in his stock!!!! said another one had a hold of his dog and he tripped trying to get to the dog and fell right by the bear and had to shoot it up the tail pipe. Same guy has about a one foot long scar up his leg from dealing with a wounded boar! hes alot of fun!!!


Lloyd,

After looking at that picture, I can see why 44man prefers .... longer barrels on his handguns. You might just sorta end up with the short end of the stick, so to speak, if you tried that with a 4" wheeler. :grin:

[JDL]

Another thing guys don't know is when a release is used, bow weight and penetration is reduced over finger shooting.


I don't know much about shooting sticks, so could you please explain. -JDL

[44man]

If I take a bow set up for fingers and shoot it with a release, I gain one FPS but get poor arrow flight. If I tune for the release I have to reduce the bow weight for perfect flight. The chronograph shows quite a loss in velocity.
I have three bows and every one does the same thing. I can shoot a heavy arrow faster and get more penetration shooting with my fingers. Sounds strange but it is true.
I developed the bow tuning method that Easton now uses and claims to have figured out themselves. I copyrighted it and sent it to all the magazines with no luck. I still think it was stolen but can't prove a thing.
I can tune a bow for broadheads in 5 minutes once it is tuned and sighted for field points and both types of head will shoot to the same spot. I get perfect flight to as far as an arrow will travel, 300 or more yd's. I know archery as well as I know guns. Years ago I shot demonstrations at the Cleveland Sportsmans Show. I have also killed about 230 deer with bows from recurves to compounds. I have two this season already and am waiting for gun season for revolvers.
It is surprising how close both the bow and a revolver must work for good killing power. A big hole all the way through! :drinks:

[ovendoctor]

friend just sent me this. A friend of our is a black bear guide. they took 16 bear this year and used a guide gun he picked up at the beginning of season as his back up gun and said he had to put down 12 of the sixteen shot with it. Got a little close to one that still had some spunk left in it. Those are teeth marks in his stock!!!! said another one had a hold of his dog and he tripped trying to get to the dog and fell right by the bear and had to shoot it up the tail pipe. Same guy has about a one foot long scar up his leg from dealing with a wounded boar! hes alot of fun!!!

sounds like yous guys are having too much fun:drinks:

[MakeMineA10mm]

I think you will find they use super fast bows [velocities] with super light arrows [bullets] and tiny broadheads [bores]. The new wave of bowhunters [riflemen] using target [varmint-hunting] equipment on big game. They think speed and energy will kill without weight and penetration.
I would think the outfitter would specify bow poundage and arrow weight plus broadhead size and type before risking his life.

Wow... Bow hunters are following the path rifle hunters did 30-50 years ago.... Shocking... Sad........:confused:

[44man]

Can't compare them to a rifle at all. Rifles have a lot of energy and well constructed bullets that expand without losing the penetration needed. You can rate most in TONS of force.
But even though I shoot strong bows, my energy is only from 70 to 80 POUNDS. So I have to depend on cutting as long a path through an animal as I can. The only way is a heavy arrow.
Sure you can speed up a light arrow and get the same energy but without the weight to keep going, they will stop very fast. Hit a bone or the shoulder and they will not stick in any farther then the depth of the broadhead.
Here are two arrows I recovered from the chest cavities of two deer last season. One is a carbon, the other a super light. Both deer were healthy with the wounds healed. Neither arrow made it much past 6". I almost cut myself on them reaching in to remove the heart and lungs.
My arrows stick in the dirt 6 to 10" AFTER GOING THROUGH THE DEER.
I compare a light arrow to a 180 gr explosive .44 bullet (Penetration, not energy as the arrow has almost none.) and the heavy arrow to a 320 gr WFN. Not to a rifle! [smilie=1:

[44man]

I forgot to ask what any of you think these light arrows would do on a big bear? How many of you would trust them for a clean kill?
Deer have the fastest clotting blood and rarely get infected from this kind of wound. Not so the bear where the arrow will fester. I for one don't want to meet that one on a trail. :roll:

[45r]

I like carbon arrows and 100 grain trocar tipped broadheads.I shoot 60 pounds and blow arrows through them every time.The key is to wait for a broadside or slight quartering away shot or let em go.I aim for the arrow to exit right behind the offside shoulder and limit my shots to 35 yards.I've killed more than 50 bucks,most with a bow.Patience is the way to go with a bow.I've passed on several deer that I probably could have taken but would rather not take a chance of wounding them and looking all over the place,not finding them and screwing up my land for future hunting.If you can't get full penetration you won't get a good blood trail.I haven't had a deer go more than 100 yards waiting for a shot I know I can make.No arrow or bullet will make up for taking a shot you have any doubts on.I practice a lot and there is no substitute for it.If you want to take deer consistantly,practice,practice,and practice some more .If the arrow goes in the middle of the ribbs and out just behind the off shoulder or leg it's a done deal.Save em for gun season if the right shot doesn't come along. If the right shot doesn't come during gun season save em till next year,you won't get the deer if you wound em anyway.Just my two cents worth after more than 30 years experience.Hunting bears the same way would be no different I think.

[44man]

45R, I agree with you 100% on shot placement. My first deer this year made 45 yd's and the second only 30 yd's.
But why am I finding arrows broken off in the chest cavities of deer from other hunters????? :confused: I have shot 4 deer so far like this and I am afraid to put my hands in ANY deer now. I also found a nice buck dead and rotten with a light arrow next to the spine that was only in 3". He must have been over a mile from where he was hit because there is nobody archery hunting close to me. Have you ever watched the TV archery shows where the guy strains his milk drawing the bow and the arrow only goes in the deer's chest a short way? There is only one reason---LIGHT ARROWS. If your carbon arrows have enough weight, thats good, no argument from me. But why can't you shoot a 125 gr broadhead too? Hard to tune? No problem, PM me and I will E mail you my tuning method.
I can shoot any broadhead made at any weight with a simple adjustment. Even the Snuffer that weighs 206.5 gr's with the insert shoots like a dart. I also carry up to 4 different heads in my quiver of the same weight and all shoot the same.
Explain to me what happens when the deer jumps your string and you hit it in the shoulder. I had it happen and my arrow blasted through the shoulder, spine and cut the ball joint in the opposite shoulder in half. My arrow was stopped at the vanes. Solid bone all the way! It knocked her off her feet and she slid down the arrow when it stuck in the ground.
Don't ever tell me the arrow is too fast and the deer can't react. Don't ever tell me you never hit a twig you didn't see. And don't tell me your arrow will go through the shoulder blade either. To prepare for the unexpected with enough power and weight is the only way to hunt. I can kill a deer or a moose with my .22 pistol too but I would rather hunt with my .475 and a 400 gr + boolit.

[Bass Ackward]

My arrows weight 250 grains and travel about 1200 fps. I have to live with the fact that I don't recover very many as they are always a pass through. :grin: But I don't have problems with dodging or any of that other stuff either.

[kodiak1]

44man I found what you printed very interesting and enlightening. I never for a minute gave it a thought that an animal would live with a broken arrow in them internally, never gave it any though I guess.
Have seen moose and deer limping badly after bow season and contributed it to an arrow in the shoulder.
You make a very good point.
Thanks Ken.

[waksupi]

I think a lot of that shallow penetration may have to do with the gadget guys, shooting arrows 80 yards at animals.

[44man]

I don't think they were long shots. Tracing the angle of the shafts shows they were shot from above from no farther then 25 yd's. I had to study the hits and cut with care. It is really nasty to reach into the chest and come upon an arrowhead. The buck was shot from almost directly above as the arrow was sticking straight up---A VERY bad way to shoot at them. That is one type shot I would never take.
Deer are tough! I read about a buck in the PA game news long ago that a hunter shot. It had a large growth in the chest that scared the hunter. He called the warden. He found a sharp stick about 1" in diameter if I remember that went into the deers front, through the heart and into the liver. It was encased in that white gristle and the deer was normal when shot. The end of the stick was burned sharp from a forest fire and they figured the deer had run into it and snapped it off the tree.
I have been bowhunting since about 1961, have found a lot of healed in bullets, mostly .22's but it is only the last few years I have started to find arrows in them. I blame that on the fast bows and the light 3D type arrows.

[9.3X62AL]

44 Man--

That is a pretty succinct comparison, relating handgun hunting to archery hunting. I had drawn the same conclusion myself, but never articulated it as well as you did.

I had the great privilege of sharing hunting fields with a highly skilled archer who happened to also be a detective in my bureau. Three days a week, he spent his lunch hour shooting arrows at an indoor archery range near our office. Like you, he had his tackle tuned where target shafts and broadheads "printed" downrange at similar points of aim.

On our last trip afield, he and I (as usual) engaged in banter over choice of tooling for deer hunting--me cheering the modern firearms, him favoring the bow. This was a late-season quail hunt, and at the end of the afternoon we were casing the shotguns when I noticed Jim had his archery tackle in his truck--as usual. I finished a canned Diet Coke, and Jim told me to stick the can in a nearby bush, on a projecting branch.

I did.

Jim got out the bow, nocked a target arrow, and said "The "o" in Coke". He drew, aimed and finger-released in less than 3 seconds.......center-punching the "o" in Coke. No warm-up, no set-up, at a range of about 30 yards.

He was lost to cancer a few years ago. I really miss him--a lot.

[44man]

Funny how it works. When I shot target years ago I would sometimes shoot 12 hours a day and was always at the range. I found that shooting fingers I had to up bow weight many times because I would get so strong I could not get a clean release anymore, the string would just not open my fingers. From 45# I wound up with 82# for hunting.
Then shooting the .44! After a while I wanted bigger and bigger revolvers. Same with the muzzle loader, started with .45's and killed a zillion deer without a single lost deer. Then went to the .50 and now the .54.
But then the high power rifle when I moved here where I could use them. Sad, made me a shooter instead of a hunter so I sold them after only a few deer.
I resisted the bow release for years until the right arrow rest came along. I converted 2 bows but still shoot the strongest with fingers. I found after shooting the release that I get a better finger release. I lose velocity with the mechanical but gain just a little accuracy. Anyone can learn to shoot fast with them unlike fingers that takes years of practice.
The release and the light arrows are a crutch for those that can't learn finger shooting and range estimation or do not have time to practice all the time. Most deer are shot under 25 yd's, why is a light, fast arrow needed that shoots flat to 60 yd's?
As far as distance, a heavy arrow will go through a deer way past 100 yd's, maybe even at 300 yd's just like a big, slow slug from the 45-70 can kill at distances that are hard to believe. Trajectory of both is miserable but the power isn't.
My arrows weigh 650 gr's, compare to the 300 and 400 gr arrows guys are using today. Same energy figures but which would you shoot a moose with? Which can lose a deer?
One of the new, super fast bows would be ideal to set up with a heavy arrow. You would lose tractory but could shoot the heavy arrow at a much reduced bow weight, ideal for the weak archer.
I will forever advocate heavy arrows and heavy for caliber revolver boolits with the correct meplat.
Even though this has been off topic, most can see the reality here. I thank all of you for being patient with me.
How many of you that are almost 70 years old can shoot 82# bows? Archery will keep you young! :drinks: Be sure to include a lot of Jack Daniels or Ridge Ripple too so you don't live your life without some pleasure. :mrgreen:

[eaglefacts]

44man, I think you are right, I hunt with a bow as well but I use a long bow, with arrows I build myself and "deadhead" broadheads. If the shot is not 30 yards or less i dont shoot.

[44man]

Are those the old Pearson deadheads? They shot great for me at the closer ranges but is the only head that I had actually windplane at long range. I shot at a running buck long ago in Ravenna arsenal in Ohio. He was over 100 yd's. My arrow was going dead on until it got close, then turned and was running right alongside the buck in the same direction. It was really funny!
Goofy shot but everyone else was shooting too. One guy spotted a buck on top of one of the ammo bunkers, unreal distance. He shot and the deer dropped. Good old days of the longbow and recurve.
I shot at a deer running full bent through a forest of little trees that you could not see through. We were in a drive line and you could watch all the guys shooting for a half mile. I shot and the guy on my left said "good shot" I hit it in the spine and dropped it. No way for any arrow to get through there but mine did. I also killed a deer on a full run in mid air as it jumped a railroad track at 45 yd's. I don't remember even shooting. Hard hunting back then because there were almost no deer in Ohio. Then I also missed a dozen deer running a trail past me. Miss the easy shots and hit the impossible.
Ravenna was 100 square miles of fenced in ammo storage. Full of deer and they had a shoot every year to thin them. Too expensive to trap and move them. They finally did at the Plum Brook Ordinance Works and populated the state with deer. Ohio is now a wonderland of huge bucks. The good old days when it took the average archer 15 years to kill a deer.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Thats why I don't bowhunt much, by the time I get tuned in, my elbow is about to all off.

I could never understand the light arrow/bullet high vel/ normal velocity argument, I wanna kill them, not sting them.

Mick.

[modoc]

I've got to second Mick, on both counts! Any more, I'm good for 1-2 arrows and then I can't use the arm for a couple of hours. If I can't be proficient enough for a clean kill, I won't use that tool ( I hammer my students with that one).

[MakeMineA10mm]

Can't compare them to a rifle at all. Rifles have a lot of energy and well constructed bullets that expand without losing the penetration needed. You can rate most in TONS of force.
But even though I shoot strong bows, my energy is only from 70 to 80 POUNDS. So I have to depend on cutting as long a path through an animal as I can. The only way is a heavy arrow.
Sure you can speed up a light arrow and get the same energy but without the weight to keep going, they will stop very fast. Hit a bone or the shoulder and they will not stick in any farther then the depth of the broadhead.
Here are two arrows I recovered from the chest cavities of two deer last season. One is a carbon, the other a super light. Both deer were healthy with the wounds healed. Neither arrow made it much past 6". I almost cut myself on them reaching in to remove the heart and lungs.
My arrows stick in the dirt 6 to 10" AFTER GOING THROUGH THE DEER.
I compare a light arrow to a 180 gr explosive .44 bullet (Penetration, not energy as the arrow has almost none.) and the heavy arrow to a 320 gr WFN. Not to a rifle! [smilie=1:

I think you missed my point. I agree that bows and rifles are two very different animals, but I found it interesting that just as rifle shooters (or we could even take the analogy to the military's main combat rifle) went from big, slow, and heavy bullets, to medium, fast, and medium bullets, eventually to small, screaming-fast, light bullets, bow hunters have done something similar IN THEIR ARENA.

Your and my opinions appear to agree identically. Me, by pointing out the fallicy of the light/fast bullet in rifles, and yours about light/fast arrows. See?

[Lloyd Smale]

ive voiced my opinions on bows before and they follow 44 mans pretty close. With one exception. I dont shoot the poundage he does. Im not into fancy stuff on my bow but am not dedicated enough to shoot a long bow or a recurve. I shoot a compound. I buy top shelf bows but dont believe in all the fancy stuff that goes on them. I still use a flipper rest and fingers to shoot. I started with fingers went to a release and then back to fingers. When i was first starting years ago a tournament archer i knew to me to use the kiss theroy when hunting. He said to learn to shoot with your fingers as you wont forget them at home or drop them from your tree blind and i did both with releases and just went back to fingers. I shoot about 65 lbs and still use aluminum xx75s and thunderhead 125s. That combo hasnt let me down in 30 years of hunting so i dont see the need to go to all this high tech crap. Overdraws and light arrows do make it tougher to shoot with fingers as there not near as forgiving and have more downfalls in the field then advantages. I also got rid of fancy sights years ago. I had muti pin sights, pendulum sights and even those goofy crosshair sights and went back to one pin and even got rid of the peep on the string. My only consession to the fancy crap is my pin is a trinium pin. I hunt in some thick swamps and it gets dark fast. Maybe if i hunted out west where 50 yard shots were common id worry about trajectory more. but i doubt if id be doing alot of killing at 50 yards anyway at my skill level. 25 yards is my self imposed limit and ive passed on quite a few bucks in the past even at 30.

[44man]

Have you seen the prices today of any archery equipment? To just set up a simple outfit will cost way more then a new revolver! :(
Guess what I would buy. Yep, another BFR in a caliber I don't have or need. :mrgreen:
I will shoot my old bows until I can't pull them anymore.
Then once you pay a pile of money for a new bow, they are like cars, walk out the door and you could not get half of what you paid. I don't even think they can be traded in anymore.
Heres to a good gun! :drinks: And of course, a pile of boolit molds too.

[Lloyd Smale]

know what you mean. I bougtht a new one 2 years ago and just the bare bow was 600 bucks and i doubt its worth 200 right now.
Have you seen the prices today of any archery equipment? To just set up a simple outfit will cost way more then a new revolver! :(
Guess what I would buy. Yep, another BFR in a caliber I don't have or need. :mrgreen:
I will shoot my old bows until I can't pull them anymore.
Then once you pay a pile of money for a new bow, they are like cars, walk out the door and you could not get half of what you paid. I don't even think they can be traded in anymore.
Heres to a good gun! :drinks: And of course, a pile of boolit molds too.

[Three44s]

A bayonet affixed "44" comes to mind for that guide! .......... Like a Russian "44" with permanent bayo!!!

Three 44s

[44man]

[smilie=w: