How hot won't hurt Colt Cobra at all?

[Low Budget Shooter]

Dear Wheelgunners,

I have finally scored a 3" barrel Cobra in good condition. I intend to shoot it and carry it instead of putting it away. If I'm going to shoot it a good bit, and want it to last a long time, what level of power won't do it any damage, even long term? Can I shoot what would basically be full-power loads, but not +P, or do I need to stay lower than that?

Thanks,

LBS

85177

[Outpost75]

Standard pressure full charge wadcutter Saeco #348 with 3.5 grains of Bullseye is what I carry in mine. Use target wadcutter level loads with 3 grains of Bullseye for practice. The Winchester 110-grain Silvertip JHP, NON+P also performs well in a 3", but I prefer the full caliber crush and deeper penetration of a full charge wadcutter.

[nhrifle]

Standard pressure loads only, and let me stress ONLY! My boss has two of them on the "rack of shame" at the gun shop with sprung frames because some knucklehead wanted to hotrod it. Shoot it and enjoy it as the fine .38 SPL it is, and if you need more power, get a .357.

[9.3X62AL]

VERY FEW of the D-frame Colt 38 Special revolvers were certified for +P loadings, whether steel- or alloy-framed. The ones I'm familiar with are the Detective Specials with ejector rod shrouds (post-1971) and the Diamondbacks. There may be others of that same vintage.

Standard-pressure 38 Special loadings should work well for you. The target wadcutters aren't a bad idea for all-around use--lower in pressure than service-grade 158 grain loads, they are accurate--docile--and won't do a recipient any good at all. Send 2 or 3, there is safety in numbers.

[pietro]

.

I'd stoke that alloy-framed beauty with hollow-base wadcutters, seated reversed (aka: the flying ashtray load) over a medium load for CCW.



.

[Mk42gunner]

... Send 2 or 3, there is safety in numbers.

I got a pretty good chuckle out of that.

It makes sense though.

Robert

[rintinglen]

3.3 grains of Reddot or Bullseye and a 158 grain 358-311 will make a great practice load. I have a post 71 Cobra which I like a lot but the admonitions to avoid hotrodding are well worth heading. For a carry load, I like the old 358-432 148 grain WC loaded in the crimp groove over 3.7 grains of reddot. Shoots very close to point of aim.

[MtGun44]

I carry the Rem lead 158 gr HP, not jacketed, in my Cobra. Shoots close to the POA, about
2" left at 12 yds. Std pressure, expands well in test media that matches ballistic gelatin.

PN is RTG38S6. Very good self defense ammo at std .38 Spl pressures. I have a handload which
works just like this load, or actually a touch better accy, but it is between std and +P so I
cannot recommend it for the Cobra. The std load from Alliant is 4.7 gr Unique under a
158 LSWC, and the +P load is 5.2 gr of Unique under the same boolit. I would recommend
that you stick with 4.7 for your loads. If you absolutely insist on more velocity, a few of these
5.0 loads will probably be OK, maybe 3-4 to verify that it hits the same POI as the 4.7 load,
and a cylinderfull if you ever actually need it.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=52430&d=1307446037

The penetration in ballistic gelatin is twice that of wet newspapers, and this is measured to the
base of the boolit. Expect 9.5-10 inches of penetration in ballistic gelatin and the identical expansion.
Pretty much the same results from the factory Rem LSWC HP. My boolit is cast of 8 BHN range scrap.

Bill

[smkummer]

Looks like you have a post 1965 cobra with the short grip frame that will accommodate all models of modern stocks of wood and rubber. I load and shoot a bunch of 3.5 grains bullseye and a 158 SWC for standard loads but all of my alloy D frames are stuffed with plus P when I carry. I have shot plus P in all of these guns that date to the late 50's to 1983 but less than a box of 50 in each due to cost and recoil. Again they shot fine and to the sights out to 10 yards. I lately only practice with standard pressure reloads but carry plus P.

[Low Budget Shooter]

Thanks for all the info, fellers.

[MT Gianni]

Pretty gun. I would mark all my brass to be used in that gun only. Nail polish, marker but I would hate to take a chance of the wrong load going there.

[Petrol & Powder]

I had a Colt Agent and a few S&W Model 12's. With the exception of one Model 12 that was defective from the factory, they proved to be good guns and stronger than a lot of people give them credit for. I think MtGun44'a advice is right on the money - Standard pressure load with a cast 158 Lead HP will be your best bet. If you can find a mild wadcutter that shoots well in that gun that would be a good practice load as well but 158gr bullets will probably shoot closer to point of aim than lighter bullets. Practicing with the same bullet weight you carry is always a good idea when using revolvers with fixed sights. The guns will take a +P load but I see no reason to beat up a classic alloy framed revolver. The alloy framed guns are far from weak, in fact some have been shot with hot loads and survived thousands of rounds. The issue is why would you want to accelerate the wear on such a fine gun.
I would never shoot a +P load in that gun, not because it blow the gun up (it will not), but because there's just no need to. The hoopla over +P vs. Standard pressure 38 Special is a little overblown and there's a lot of history in that story, but that's a topic for another thread.

[Petrol & Powder]

By the way LBS - Awesome Gun!

[Petrol & Powder]

Send 2 or 3, there is safety in numbers. :bigsmyl2::drinks:

[9.3X62AL]

I'm not convinced that the 38 Special x 2" does its best work with either +P loadings or light-for-caliber bullets at increased velocities anyway. My belief is that the snubbies do their work using what diameter they have in concert with the much better sectional density offered by the heavier/longer 158 grain bullets that 38 Specials have always used. The soft-metal hollow-point 158 grain SWCs used in the "FBI Load" have a good record for expansion and for making stops on goblins. They survive even today in spite of Dr. Fackler and his proselytizing about Jacketed Controlled Expansion Sub-Sonic 9mm as The Load Of The Future. It's curious how closely Dr. Fackler's 9mm Love-Child resembles the 38 Special 158 SWCHP load, ballistically speaking. They called that a CLUE where I once worked.

As always, no good bullet should be sent in solo and unaccompanied when goblins beckon or assailants engage. Anyone worthy of being shot is worthy of being shot well and properly. Fewer interviews = shorter investigations = tax dollar savings. Win/win.

[Bret4207]

Many years back I had a Cobra. Lovely gun. I put a lot of loads through it that were way too hot for no other reason than youthful stupidity and false bravado. As far as I know, I did not hurt the gun, but it's senseless to risk such a fine arm with hot loads when 150-160 gr FN or SWC boolits at 750-800 fps will serve your needs very well. My current Smith Bodyguard likes those loads just fine and I don't have to worry about the gun or my fingers with them.

[FergusonTO35]

My .38's are loaded with 5.7 grains Accurate #5, Federal primer, and 158 grain flat point. This load clocks 875 fps out of my S&W 10-5 which actually exceeds the old +P FBI load. According to the data from Accurate it is well within standard pressure range.

[Petrol & Powder]

I'm not convinced that the 38 Special x 2" does its best work with either +P loadings or light-for-caliber bullets at increased velocities anyway. ...............

...........As always, no good bullet should be sent in solo and unaccompanied when goblins beckon or assailants engage. Anyone worthy of being shot is worthy of being shot well and properly. .............


Excellent points. Alloy framed revolvers have their place and I see no need to beat them up. The relatively long/heavy for the caliber, bullets of the 158gr variety have a good track record out of short barrels. Yes, one can push a +P 38 special a little faster and a .357 mag much faster but what do you gain?
When using a 2" barrel to launch that 158gr slug a lot of extra pressure translates into a lot more blast, muzzle flash and stress on the gun but not a lot more speed.
I carry the "FBI Load" (158gr SWC LHP +P) in alloy framed .38's but I don't shoot a lot of them in those lightweight guns. I wouldn't worry that much about a slightly slower 158gr LHP.
I think soft lead, a good hollow point, a 158gr .36 caliber slug and about 850fps will work just fine.

[Low Budget Shooter]

Thanks for all the good ideas, gentlemen. LBS

[smkummer]

I carry the "FBI Load" (158gr SWC LHP +P) in alloy framed .38's but I don't shoot a lot of them in those lightweight guns. I wouldn't worry that much about a slightly slower 158gr LHP.
I think soft lead, a good hollow point, a 158gr .36 caliber slug and about 850fps will work just fine.[/QUOTE]
I agree with you but most modern standard pressure 38 special 158 lead shot of a 2" barrel is in the low to mid 700 FPS range the last time I clocked some factory. This is why it takes Plus P 38 these days to come close to what standard ammo produce in days of the past.

[Petrol & Powder]

I carry the "FBI Load" (158gr SWC LHP +P) in alloy framed .38's but I don't shoot a lot of them in those lightweight guns. I wouldn't worry that much about a slightly slower 158gr LHP.
I think soft lead, a good hollow point, a 158gr .36 caliber slug and about 850fps will work just fine.
I agree with you but most modern standard pressure 38 special 158 lead shot of a 2" barrel is in the low to mid 700 FPS range the last time I clocked some factory. This is why it takes Plus P 38 these days to come close to what standard ammo produce in days of the past.[/QUOTE]

I strongly suspect you're right. This hoopla over +P 38 is not totally false but a bit over-the-top sometimes. I also think 9.3x62AL is correct, you don't need blinding fast bullets for a 38 Special to do good work and when you toss in short barrels I begin to question just what do you gain from that extra pressure.
We all know the history behind the 38 Special, 38/44 Revolvers with HS and HV cartridges, the development of .357 mag. along with the SAAMI standards; but the standard pressure vs. +P is a discussion for another thread. I will say that the spread between 17K psi (standard pressure) and 18.5K psi (+P) isn't much when compared to 35K psi limit for the .357mag.

[ddixie884]

I believe the current SAAMI specs are 20,000psi for .38spl +P.

[Petrol & Powder]

I believe the current SAAMI specs are 20,000psi for .38spl +P.

I stand corrected, the SAAMI spec for 38 Spl.P is 20K, I was using an old reference.

[ddixie884]

I meant no offense, but There is some debate on this and I was just raising the question.

[schutzen]

As long as this debate is going on, I have a question. I just acquired a Colt Officers Model HB .38 Special. How well will the Officers Model stand up to +P loads. I believe my particular gun will date to he late 1950's.

[TXGunNut]

Snubbies are built for the standard velocity 158 SWCs IMHO. At that level I'm pretty sure a HP isn't helpful but that doesn't mean it's not a potent load. +P loads in a non-+P rated gun are a recipe for an eventual sprung frame and on occasion catastrophic cylinder failure. +P loads don't really have much to offer in a snubby anyway, but again, that's just my opinion.

[Char-Gar]

I have had both a 2" and 4" Cobra over the years and have liked them both. I never had a 3", but I do have a 3" Detective Special.

I am going to have to join with the Outpost75 on the used of a full speed wadcutter. While there is no magic bullet for the 38 Special and shot placement will always be very important, I think the wadcutter moving along at 850 fps or so, is a very good choice. It will penetrate to the vitals and give a respectable wound as it goes. It doesn't depend on bullet expansion to "get er done".

I keep a full wadcutter over 3.5/Bullseye in both my small frame 38s, but I don't carry them often these days. I live hip and thigh will the cartels here on the border and I want something that will fling more lead quickly without the need to reload.

[9.3X62AL]

As long as this debate is going on, I have a question. I just acquired a Colt Officers Model HB .38 Special. How well will the Officers Model stand up to +P loads. I believe my particular gun will date to he late 1950's.

I have a similar (but older) Colt 38 Special, an Officer's Model Target from the late 1940s. I kicked this same question around at the time the OMT came on board (~12 years back), and concluded that since I had several 357s on board already that it made little sense to run +P 38 Specials in ANY of my 38 Special revolvers unless it was a "requirement"--my agency requires 125 grain +P loads as its designated selection in 38 Special caliber. I don't use the 38 Special for CCW, so the "need" for +P in my ammo locker is non-existent.

I rely upon factory recommendations when it comes to ammo selections for my sideiron. S&W certified their K-frame revolvers for +P loadings soon after such loads became available. I used to refer my deputies with older-version revolvers or J-frame revolvers to the factory for the maker's ideas on the matter. It might be best to follow this route with your question, Schutzen.

I'll say this--I'm not comfortable recommending the practice of shooting +P ammo in platforms not certified for same. Standard-pressure 38 Special loadings are pretty darn capable and quite efficient.....I am content with them in my 38s, but also have 357s on deck--and don't carry the 38 Special in harm's way any more. Those variables might change the landscape for me. Everyone's situation is unique--I would check with Colt Firearms, and make a decision based on their info.

[Char-Gar]

As long as this debate is going on, I have a question. I just acquired a Colt Officers Model HB .38 Special. How well will the Officers Model stand up to +P loads. I believe my particular gun will date to he late 1950's.

Your Colt will stand up to +P load, the question is how long will it do so. The answer is not nearly as long as it will stand up to standard pressure loads.

If this is the only personal protection device you own, then a man has to do what a man has to do. However, it makes no sense to do so without a real need. If you want more pressure/velocity/recoil/muzzle blast just for the heck of it, get a 357 Magnum pistol and have at it.

[schutzen]

Thanks for the replies concerning the Officers Model HB. Any practice or target I shoot with it will be regular .38's, but given the comments I will probably load it with +P's as a nightstand gun. I have other options, but my wife and I both shoot the Officers Model very well. It is just a good fit for our needs.

[Petrol & Powder]

I meant no offense, but There is some debate on this and I was just raising the question.

None taken, I was using an old reference and you're correct that the current standard is 20K psi. My point is that the spread between Standard pressure and +P is not huge.

[ddixie884]

Elmer Keith, in Sixguns, said no more than 12gr 2400 under his 173gr swc in the Officer's model frames. I only use 11gr with 160gr swcbb in mine.

[9.3X62AL]

Elmer Keith, in Sixguns, said no more than 12gr 2400 under his 173gr swc in the Officer's model frames. I only use 11gr with 160gr swcbb in mine.

HIJO LA! Either of these load rates is "going a little wide" for my tastes in 38 Special, excepting the N-frame S&Ws. To each his own--I have 357s for loads like these. I hope your I-frame Colts absorb your loads well and without issues.

[Petrol & Powder]

Your Colt will stand up to +P load, the question is how long will it do so. The answer is not nearly as long as it will stand up to standard pressure loads.

If this is the only personal protection device you own, then a man has to do what a man has to do. However, it makes no sense to do so without a real need. If you want more pressure/velocity/recoil/muzzle blast just for the heck of it, get a 357 Magnum pistol and have at it.

/\ +1 This is well said

[Low Budget Shooter]

Thanks for all the good information. Okay, so how hot of a load can I shoot in this Colt Cobra for thousands of rounds for years into the future without doing the gun any harm? Thanks, LBS

[Outpost75]

This is the authoritative reference re use of +P ammo in the Colt "D" frame revolvers, Police Positive Special, Detective Special, Cobra, and Agent:

http://www.grantcunningham.com/coltammo.html

What Colt says

Post-1972 (shrouded ejector rod) models: The owner's manual says that these guns are rated for +P ammunition. The manual calls for a factory (gunsmith) inspection every 1,000 rounds for the alloy models (Cobra and Agent), and every 3,000 rounds for the steel-framed guns (Detective Special, Police Positive Special, Diamondback.)


Pre-1972 (unshrouded ejector rod) models: None of the Colt guns with unshrouded ejector rods are rated by Colt for +P use. These guns, made prior to 1972, were sold before the advent of +P ammunition.

However, there are some other things to consider before you load your gun with that hot ammo!

What happens?
+P ammunition is loaded to higher pressures than standard .38 Special ammunition. This results in increased muzzle velocity and recoil.

When this ammunition is fired, it puts increased stress on the chambers and cylinder, and the frame is subjected to more force than normal. Colt "D" frame cylinders are certainly up to the task of containing the pressure, but the frames and action parts really take a beating.

This means that the ratchet (ejector) and hand experience increased wear, shortening their life and requiring more frequent replacement.

For the alloy frames, not only do the action parts wear but the frame itself will stretch slightly. After a number of rounds, the frame may be so deformed as to result in headspacing problems. While the steel frames don't generally stretch so much, the alloy frames will require replacement after a diet of +P.

This increased wear is the reason for the re-inspection intervals given in the owner's manual. To put it another way, your gun probably won't suffer catastrophic failure from the use of +P ammunition (it's SAFE to use), but wear will be greatly increased (it may not be very SMART to use.)

Should you use it?

First, if you plan to use +P ammunition in any Colt, it is imperative that the gun is within factory specifications in every respect. If there is any deficiency, the increased wear patterns from +P use can render the gun unusable or even unsafe in short order.

Regardless of the model, you will experience increased wear if you use +P ammunition. Colt revolvers are not cheap to work on, and some parts are becoming quite scarce, so use should probably be restricted.

What do I (Grant Cunningham) recommend?

(What follows is based on my experience shooting, repairing and customizing Colt revolvers. Nothing written here is intended to be predictive, but is simply a recap of what I've observed. Use what follows at your own risk and expense.)

For steel-frame models, I'd limit +P use to a few hundred rounds a year, and observe the 3,000 round inspection interval. I've found that, if the maintenance is done properly, this will result in many years of shooting service.

Regarding the alloy models, frame stretch is a major concern. In addition, the alloy frames will suffer more wear in the action than the steel guns because their lessened mass results in a higher recoil pulse.

Since the alloy guns are so scarce, and replacing a stretched frame is essentially impossible these days, I recommend that you shoot very few +P rounds in them. If you plan to carry it, you can certainly shoot two or three cylinders full just to acquaint yourself with the increased recoil - then practice with regular pressure loads. Absolutely observe the 1,000 round inspection schedule, and make certain that the gun is in perfect condition beforehand.

What about the older models?

In general, I wouldn't. Any of the pre-72 guns are now so collectible that it just doesn't make sense to subject them to the pounding that +P ammo will give them.

But, should you insist...if the gun is a steel model made in the mid-50's to late 60's, it is probably strong enough that it won't suffer catastrophic failure with +P loads. However, in my experience the pre-72 models have slightly softer metallurgy, which results in increased frame wear. Thus, it's not a question of "will the gun handle it," it's more a question of how much expensive maintenance it will require!

If it's earlier than that period, or any pre-72 alloy frame model, "just say no."

The bottom line

You don't have to be afraid of +P ammunition, just understand that each +P round you put through your Colt will result in more wear than a standard pressure load. It is up to you to maintain the gun appropriately.

Happy shooting!

[9.3X62AL]

Thank you, Outpost 75.

[Low Budget Shooter]

Gentlemen,

Thanks for all the great info. After a whole lot of reading and quite a bit of experimentation, I have settled on a load of 5.1 grains Unique under a Miha lead hollowpoint bullet at 130 grains (from the Miha 9mm mold). It groups well and shoots right to point of aim. It also expands in a pattern very similar to the Nyclad.

LBS

[MtGun44]

Sounds like a good load and shooting to POA is a critical capability.

Bill