Thoughts on the 1911s reliability

[Hunter]

Please take a look and let me know what you all think of my article on the reliability of the 1911.

http://rangehot.com/cars-unreliable/

[wch]

A fine article that points out the "problems" of so many of these pistols: the add-ons.

[9.3X62AL]

What "wch" said. In spades.

The 1911-series pistols and the AR-15-series rifles suffer from the same malady that is not of their design or choosing--The Barbie Doll Effect. I once called the accessory aftermarket for these systems a "cottage industry". THAT was a gross understatement--just the size of table space at most gun shows or the SHOT Show dedicated to this accessories market is substantial. Far be it from me to be a kill-joy to anyone wanting to accessorize their favorite handgun or rifle in any way they choose--we have anti-gunners for that purpose, and damn them to hell and Hanoi anyway, the soul-less hoplophobes.

Ahem. I would counsel someone that asked concerning these add-ons to be mindful of platform reliability effects of whatever "enhancement" you might consider for your pet lead slinger. That's all. This goes double for any firearm that might get depended upon to keep the wolfpack off the door or to repel goblins in an alley. I am a rock-ribbed classicist for this venue; my carry guns are profoundly unadorned and unaltered from OEM condition, other than to be fired often and intently with loads very close to those carried in harm's way. Magazines are OEM; ammo is factory-made and thoroughly test-driven prior to service. Just my dos centavos, folks.

[MtGun44]

Great points. I've been shooting 1911s and smithing on them since 1980 and you are
absolutely right. My carry gun, on my hip right now, is a Colt Commander with a VERY
early pinned base nickeled original lips magazine in the grip and a pair of later model
pure GI (no early release) mags in a carrier on the opposite side. This gun and those
mags ALWAYS works. Once I got some good mags and learned how to make reliable
AMMO, my problems were over with 1911s.

You might want to mention that a WHOLE lot of the problems are due to shoddily made
ammo, too. I run into it all the time on the range and here.

Bill

[Kull]

Completely agree with the article. With the 1911 you see people immediately start messing around trying to fix problems that aren't there or make improvements that aren't necessary. Then you have all these companies making 1911's and each one is a little different from the next. I seen a comment where an individual asked why didn't Colt ship 8 round magazines with that pistol they're supplying the Marines. Simple answer in my opinion, 7 rounders work.

I have a stock Commander that's been a treat, only needing springs changed when appropriate.

[9.3X62AL]

Good point, Bill. Good firearms can't abide crummy ammo. The whole system has to be first-cabin.

[Hunter]

Thank you all for the kind words. I was a bit concerned about publishing this article with so much negativity on the 1911 rampant on the internet.
I also know the people of this forum are stand up folks and do not get swayed by scuttlebutt so I wanted to share it here for sure.
Thank you again.

The ammo was a factor I overlooked but is correct and I will edit the article to reflect that. Thank you Mtgun44.

Article edited and I credited Mtgun44 for the idea.

[BoolitBullet]

I completely disagree. Cars are unreliable. Instead, I ride horses. Never had one fail to start on me. 1911s are also too finicky. That is why I throw a spear. I have nearly half a million throws on it and it has yet to misfire. :D

[BruceB]

After several decades of using the 1911, there are a few things that are REQUIRED, in my opinion:

-as a left-hander, I NEED an ambidextrous safety in a carry gun;

--since the as-issued grip safety chews-up my hand, I NEED a replacement grip safety;

-and since I have personally seen 1970-series barrel bushings break off "fingers"inside the slide, I would replace such bushings with a regular, solid-style bushing.

All these are easy and fast fixes. I can operate the gun with the issue thumb and grip safeties, but it's far better FOR ME with the changes. The bushing replacement is an absolute requirement in my estimation.

Other things can be nice.... better sights are the main need I see. Good magazines are critical.... too many shooters don't seem to realize that the magazine is a vital working part of the gun.... if the mags don't work, the gun doesn't work!

[Jupiter7]

I have 4. 3 are bells and whistles. The one I carry is a Springfield GI box stock with Colt 8 round mags. It just works...

[gmsharps]

All great and valid points. Just to add is to practice, practice,practice. Know how to clear malfunctions in the dark instinctively.
gmsharps

[Petrol & Powder]

It's been awhile since I played with 1911's but I preferred the Commander length models. The best ones were the unmolested models with the Kimber being my top choice. I've seen AR-15 platforms with so much stuff hanging off of them, you could barely tell there was a rifle in there. They also weighed more than an M1 Garand.
For pistols, reliability needs to take precedence over "cool". That usually means keeping it simple. A single point sling on a long gun is useful and I will concede that a light has value in some situations but that's about all the "stuff" I will tolerate on a long gun.
I'm a huge fan of Simple !

[Rick Hodges]

I am left handed....I bet my life on a Colt 1911 series 70 with Armand Swenson ambi-safety and Novak high profile sights. It served admirably with nary a hitch. Good ammo and magazines are the key. (for all the revolver fans, I have observed and been victim of bad ammo setting a case back and tying up the gun)....I put many thousands of rounds through that gun with nary a hitch. Of all the guns I have ever owned, I miss this one the most.

[Clay M]

I always advise anyone wanting to carry a 1911 to shoot it at least 500 rounds and get any bugs worked out. Magazines and ammo are a big factor.My son's Springfield 1911 was jamming badly. I put a brand new 18# recoil spring in and it hasn't jammed since.

[KCSO]

The biggest problem I have with folks wanting 1911's is that they insist on unnecessary add on's without proper thought. There is very little you need to add to a stock 1911 for a combat defence pistol and the more you add the more can go wrong. You were right on the money with this one.

[Char-Gar]

You have produced an excellent article and I agree with all of the above posters. I have had a couple of dozen 1911 pistols over the years and as long as they use good mags, good ammo and do not deviate from the original design they are as reliable as any machine with moving parts can be. When folks start trying improve on the design for fun or profit, that when problems begin.

Like others I am left handed and started with a good Remington-Rand 1911A1 in 1961 before there were ambi-safetys. When the ambi-safetys came along I tried them, but just could not seem to retrain my brain and hand to use them, so I removed them and reverted to doing things the old way.

Most hammers don't chew the web of my hand, but I have had a few that did. I chose to take the hammer spur to a grinder rather than change it out or install a new grip safety.

Good sights are indeed a blessing and it never hurts to clean up the trigger pull a mite for better control.

Until recently I liked the 1911A1 short steel trigger, but recently have changed them out for a long trigger. I find that as I age and the arthritis in my shooting hand gets worse, the longer trigger is more comfortable and easier to control.

Thanks for the excellent piece on the 1911. I am certain that some will jump down your throat, but that is OK as there are many of us who know you speak the truth.

[Mk42gunner]

Good article.

There were three mistakes made with the A1 variation, in my opinion.

1. The sights, while bigger than the 1911, were still not big enough. King's Hardball sights are much better; properly staked the front stays in place and you can actually see them.

2. The trigger did not need shortening. I personally like long triggers.

3. The arched mainspring housing. Like Bruce the stock A1 hammer and grip safety bite my hand. With a flat mainspring housing I do not get bit.

Of course good ammunition and tested magazines are needed. A quality recoil spring is also necessary. I had a bunch of trouble on my first ship with bad recoil springs, but the ones in the Navy Supply system cost all of $0.04 each.

Robert

[Char-Gar]

The Army found that solders, when point shooting, tended to shoot lower with the 1911 than the 1917 revolver. The arched mainspring housing was an attempt to correct this by raising the muzzle a tad. It helped some in that regard, but you still have to bend the wrist up a mite more than with the revolver.

Early on, I discovered this point shooting difference between the 1911 and 1911A1 and for that reason preferred the arched housing. However, nothing comes without a price and the arched housing does have some down sides.

After all these years, if I pick up a 1911 with a flat housing, it just doesn't feel right and I put it down as quick as I can. Nothing logical or reasonable about it, it just feel creepy and alien without the arched housing.

[Hunter]

Thank you all for the kind words.
I am a bit odd and prefer the long trigger and arched MSH. Yea, weird I know but that is what fits my hand best.
I put a slight radius at the top of the beavertail where it meets the receiver and hammer bite went away all together.

[35remington]

Since my first 1911 was dad's manufactured in 1944 Colt (war production of course) I cannot get used to any mainspring housing other than arched.

My two Series 70 Colt reproductions are identical twins of that gun, save for better sights and a different hammer. Simple and straightforward; sights that can be seen, a trigger guard with enough room for a gloved finger (something a long trigger makes a bit more problematic; the army wasn't entirely wrong in specifying a short trigger for the A1) makes for a 1911 that has everything it needs and nothing it don't need.

No oversized slide stops or magazine release buttons or oversized safeties as I find the stock design quite big enough

Original tapered lip magazines (using the magazine design the designer intended to be used with the 1911 is the single most "missed the boat" hint I can give to those using other designs) and the the original small radius stop. Wolff springs in the seven shot magazines. All improve 1911 function and reliability over the alternative choices.

That's it. Nothing else is needed.

Except that WWII 1911 came with a lanyard loop on the bottom of the arched mainspring housing, and I believe mine need one too.

[Char-Gar]

I would not have a 1911 without a lanyard loop on the mainspring housing. It is to convenience to open beer bottles. I have seen people blanch when I unholster my 1911A1, eject the magazine an inch or two and open a beer bottle with it. It is one of my favorite things to do.

[35remington]

There are times when being "tied" to your pistol can be a lifesaver, as when sleeping but needing access to one's piece at a moment's notice without delay. It is not hard to imagine a scenario where this is a benefit.

And yeah, a cooler way to open your beer has never ever been invented. And the response to the question of what kind of beer you want? "Colt 45!".

[Mk42gunner]

Ah yes, the lanyard loop. With a partially inserted magazine, it makes a dandy bottle opener.

Robert

[357Mag]

Hunter -

Howdy !

I'm one of " those guys " Rick H. mentioned...

With much trepidation, might I mention:
Any sensible practice w/ a " 1911 " will include" tap-rack-bang ", clearing " stovepipes"; clearing " double feeds"; et al.
In all probability, these types of clearing drills were driven by more by the existence and operation of the 1911, than by any other gun.
Go to a self defense handgun course ( like @ Gunsite or Thunder Ranch ), and "semi- automatic " shooters will in all probability be runnin' through these drills. And, it matters little whether their 1911 has been extensively modified... or not. Because... knowledgable instructors are convinced they are necesssay, and the drills are thusly a part of the training syllabus. Students will be tasked to either do the drills, or.... prove proficiency in them.
1911's... how many shooters do you know, that will ONLY shoot " ball " ammo ? There's a reason they feel that way, right or wrong.

IMHO - Things like beveled mag wells, polished feed ramps, relieved ejection ports are not " add-ons ", but ARE 1911 mods that speak to perceived needs.
This is not an indictment of gun tinkering via use of gee whiz gadgets, but rather... speaks to established deficiencies in the basic design/manufacture of those 1911's assembled w/o these features.

As regards springs - I don't see a whole bunch of difference between changing 1911 magazines/feed lips to obtain a change in " springy-ness " within the magazine; and say... changing the recoil spring/buffer of the gun. Both are intended to provide an " effect " on operation of the pistol, via changes in spring-type tension.

And, I don't believe competent incorporation of ambi-dextrous safeties and ambi' mag releases are themselves driving " stoppages ".
Now..... mis-manipulation of such controls can lead to mischief, yes.

Lastly, while serving as an NRA certified Handgun instructor.... I can't say how many times I saw 1911 shooters experience failure of the take-down " pin ".
This is at-once both a comical and a tragic weapons failure; as the gun disassembles itself ( during use ) in the shooter's hand.


With sincere regards,
357Mag

[MtGun44]

Interesting. In 33 yrs of competing in and shooting IPSC matches, including observing/shooting about
60 matches per year where a very large part of the guns were 1911 variants, I have seen a number of failures,
but I have never seen or even heard of a single "takedown pin" (slide stop pin, actually) failure. I have
heard of a link failure, which does let the upper assembly move forward under spring pressure, as
described.

The most common failures is poorly installed front sights coming loose, followed by the pins in Gold
Cup rear sights. After that it is a few fingers of the finger bushings, about 6-7 extractor hooks, two
slide stop magazine engagement tips (only stopped locking back) and a couple of plunger tubes starting
to get loose. This is while observing probably several million rounds going downrange, launched by
literally hundreds of 1911s.

I have seen about 8-9 double charge events, also but that is not the fault of the gun.

Bill

[35remington]

"Polishing the feed ramp" has probably led to more malfunctioning 1911's than any other modification ever accomplished as any home amateur thinks they're capable of it. After such modification the gun is often less reliable. The feed ramp does not need to have the mirror finish some think it does. It's more important that the angle be correct.

The lowered and flared ejection port was mainly to keep the bullseye shooter next to you from getting hit with the empty brass and to prevent dings in the case mouth. If it is suggested that this was a reliability improvement this would be news to many people who know better. A properly dimensioned extractor is far more important. If you're waiting for one of my unmodified ejection ports, mostly in the WW2 pattern to cause a failure you'll be waiting a long, long, long time as I have never had a failure due to an unmodified ejection port.

Oversized magazine releases and slide stops make it easier to drop the magazine when unintended or may make the gun stop doing something it should be doing. Shok buffs are poison to some guns and a special liability to shorter 1911's in terms of reliability. Guide rods mostly lighten your wallet and really don't make any functional improvement save making the gun more tedious to disassemble.

What drives the modifications is mostly that someone can charge extra for them and make some money after the gun leaves the factory. There are some that are handy, true, but relatively few are necessary. Even 100 years later. The other reason for the modification is to correct something that the factory didn't get right in the first place.

What would be far better than charging you for floss and glitz from the factory is using quality materials and assembling the gun with the correct, in spec parts. That way you don't have to pay someone else to correct that which is wrong. For example, what manfacturers supply the gun with magazines that have features it was originally intended to use as an essential aid to reliability? Who knows the breechface isn't supposed to be straight? Are they making them that way?

All guns come with a cost. At a given (reasonable) price point I'd rather have a basic gun with quality parts and specs than a flossied up gun that saves money by neglecting essential features and uses substandard materials. Guess which gun has the quality where it really matters?

Does the user have the mindset that any shaped ammo of any length should feed from the magazine of their choice? Do they understand the role overall length of the cartridge and bullet ogive shape plays in feeding reliability?

Lack of understanding often drives users of the 1911 to try things that shouldn't be done. Instead of telling such individuals that it's best not to try to go there from here, it's easier to take their money and reassure them that it can be done. All while failing to tell them what they really need to hear.....which is that while throwing a lot of money at something often works, it doesn't necessarily mean that's the best or most reliable way to do things.

Long ago I learned to go with what the 1911 could do with a good chance of reliability rather than what I thought it should do with a lesser chance of reliability. This works a lot better.

Eliminating bad ammo choices, bullet shapes and overall lengths is a good place to start. "Back to John Browning" and his original intentions takes over after that. This is the road to success.

[35remington]

And by the way.....I can't say how many times I've never seen a 1911 "take itself down" via the slide stop pin when being shot because it just hasn't happened in my experience. In other words, I've never seen it.......over and over and over again.

This includes time spent on pistol teams and watching high round count 1911's that were "range beaters' get flogged at the National Guard armory basement 25 meter range by shooters of every part of the spectrum in regards to competence.

Chronic problem? Nah. See how rarely it's mentioned? A common malady it's most definitely not.

[detox]

If your factory stock 1911 will not shoot Winchester 230gr Hardball.....something is wrong with gun or magazine.

I want a 1911 chambered in 9mm.

[Kull]

Lastly, while serving as an NRA certified Handgun instructor.... I can't say how many times I saw 1911 shooters experience failure of the take-down " pin ".
This is at-once both a comical and a tragic weapons failure; as the gun disassembles itself ( during use ) in the shooter's hand.


With sincere regards,
357Mag

Interesting. How does this happen exactly, I'm guessing by pushing on the slide stop with their pointer finger? My cousin did this with my 1911 once and I was like how the hell did you pull that off. Seems like an operator error type of thing.

[Mk42gunner]

If your factory stock 1911 will not shoot Winchester 230gr Hardball.....something is wrong with gun or magazine.

I want a 1911 chambered in 9mm.

I had a full size steel 9mm once. Compared to shooting .45 Ball and 10mm it seemed like shooting a .22, recoilwise.

Robert

[Char-Gar]

Just for grins, here is a pic of a very reliable 1911. It is a Norinco 1911A1. I paid $280.00 for it in a Corpus Christi Pawn shop about 8 years ago. I added new sights (King rear and Brown front) and changed out all the springs with factory spec Wolfe springs. I installed a Colt barrel I had in my parts box.

I have since replaced the short trigger with a long one, but that is about it. I did all the work myself, so the only extra cost was the parts. As it sits today, I have less than $370.00 in it.

You will note there is no lowered ejection port. They serve no purpose other than to reduce or eliminate the dents in the case mouths of ejected cases. These dents come out in reloading so I don't see any need to worry about them. I have never seen a 1911 disassemble itself either.

[bhn22]

Amazingly, we pretty much have a consensus of sorts on add-ons. My Series 80 came to me with a low-mounted Bomar rear, which hasn't broken its elevation screw or crosspin yet, but it will be replaced with a sturdier unit. BTW, I should probably mention that I've had it for 25 years without incident. I kept it this way as a match pistol, and used it for everything. It, and it's little brother have Wilson grip safeties, and ambi safeties. Flat MS housings, and thin grips pretty much finish everything off. Not a lot of Barbie bling. I've discovered that I've been neglecting the pair, so it's time to move them to the front of the line and go shooting.

[MtGun44]

Leave the Bomar alone. Never heard of/saw a real Bomar break. There are LOTS of copies out there that
DO break, but if it say Bomar on it, you can relax. The only "sturdier unit" I know of is a fixed sight. There
is a reason that THE adjustable sight used in IPSC competition was the Bomar. When you are running
a thousand rounds a month or more thru a gun you WILL find out what breaks and what does not.
When thousands of shooters are doing it, the answers are statistically ironclad. I have a pair of Wilson
LE Comps that have well over 150K rounds between the two, both with low mounted Bomars and no
failures.

Sad to say real Bomars are out of production, and there are lots of semi-clones out there, that look
much like a Bomar (and have a nice sight picture). I'm sure some are fine, but I have seen about
3-4 failures. One that disappointed me a lot, because their stuff is generally quite good was a
Kimber Eclipse that a friend had. The Bomar-clone Kimber sight broke off the sight blade in a
couple hundred rounds. Kimber fixed it, and it broke again. After the next fix the pistol went
down the road. This was quite a while ago, I would expect that Kimber has this figured out by now.

Bill

[Lefty Red]

If your factory stock 1911 will not shoot Winchester 230gr Hardball.....something is wrong with gun or magazine.

I want a 1911 chambered in 9mm.

Please correct me if I am wrong or going down the wrong path, but I thought the 1911 design has problems with shorter OAL calibers. Is this true?

Back on track......I love a basic 1911. I had a LLama in 38 super that never hiccupped. Would like to get a RIA in 38 Super and maybe change out the springs and add a better trigger and sights.

Lefty

[bhn22]

My Bomar is a real Bomar, and over 25 years old. My compact has "real" Novaks on it.

[Mk42gunner]

Lefty Red,

I was running a Springfield Armory 9mm top end with a weak gov't issue recoil spring on a Colt Delta Elite frame and never had any problems with the cheapest 9mm FMJ I could find. The magazines I used were the cheapest that Brownell's carried around 1993.

I do remember that the mags had a block at the rear, but they fed fine. It worked good for a cheap plinker.

A guy at work gave me the slide, I bought a new barrel and and a few magazines, then pieced the rest of the parts together from my spares box.

Robert

[DanWalker]

One mod I am most definately not a fan of is the extended safety. I've seen too many of them wiped "OFF" while being carried. Thus turning cocked and locked into an accident waiting to happen... I won't carry a 1911 with an extended safety without a thumbreak holster. Always thought this mod was an answer to a question that no one asked.

[MtGun44]

Extended safety has SOME place for those with very long thumbs, but is WILDLY over prescribed.

IMO, the dead stock Colt military or civilian safeties are just perfect for 98% of the population, regardless
of IPSC "styling cues". I have both styles and have shorten the long ones for a few friends that
recognized that they had no need for such an extension. Thank goodness that the silly extended
slide stop has nearly totally died out. What a useless "feature".

My advice since 1980 to new practicioners of the IPSC art which has mostly become a game, but still
with some benefits to the gun handling skills and shooting skills, is -

"Put on better sights, get a decent 4 lb crisp trigger put on the gun (very easy to do), correct the
hammer bite issue if it afflicts you, buy some good quality magazines and then SPEND THE
REST OF YOUR MONEY ON POWDER, PRIMERS AND BOOLITS. In about 5 or so years of
serious practice and competition, you will have gained enough skill to know if you need
further modifications. "

When newbies sees an A class or Master class shooter raging through a course with a $3500
racegun and imagines that if they spend the money they will be able to shoot like that I point out
that "you could swap guns with that guy and he would still shoot the match in 1/3 of your
time with 90% points".

Lance Armstrong entitled his book "It's not about the bike". It is not about the gun. A basic
1911 with a few improvements will function well and a long. The shooter needs the most
modification. Unfortunately, most people would rather spend money than time.


bhn22 - Unless your real Bomar offends you somehow, let it continue to do what it has done for the last
quarter century - function perfectly.

Bill

[prs]

I probably have less calandar time-wise experience with the 1911 than anyone posting in this thread. All of the hands-on I have is limited to my own two examples of 70 series Ruger SR1911, one a standarc sive, the other a Commander. I am ambidexterous and shoot one handed with either hand. Alas, I did have one episode of slide stop pin dislodging part way. I had already gone through several magazines. I was blasting away at a hostage type steel target at 15 yards and had just changed to a right handed stance. A few shots into that magazine I had a failure to eject and noticed the pin was mostly out, the frame had a huge dummy scratch with a little dent at the end of that scratch where the frame rolls over to the trigger well. The pistol did not dismember. I don't blame gremlins (they were too busy hiding my spent brass) and I don't blame John Moses Browning, it was my trigger finger rest along the frame that had probably started the err before the first shot of that string. Many thousands of rounds since then.

prs

[Lefty Red]

Lefty Red,

I was running a Springfield Armory 9mm top end with a weak gov't issue recoil spring on a Colt Delta Elite frame and never had any problems with the cheapest 9mm FMJ I could find. The magazines I used were the cheapest that Brownell's carried around 1993.

I do remember that the mags had a block at the rear, but they fed fine. It worked good for a cheap plinker.

A guy at work gave me the slide, I bought a new barrel and and a few magazines, then pieced the rest of the parts together from my spares box.

Robert

I remember when Para Or had their LDA and the 1911 in several calibers. I read that bit of the shorter calibers giving the 1911 platform some problems. Just wanting some clearification from someone more accustom to the 1911 than I was. I knew the 45ACP, 9x23mm, and 38 Super was really good calibers in the platform.

And didn't SA offer some micro 1911s in 9mm and 40S&W? I knew Para Or offered some when they came out with their LDA 1911s.

And why hasn't a maker bought back the Star Model B? Or the Firestar? Man, I am showing my age! I still remember when you HAD to shoot a semi for 500-1000 rounds before you even thought of using it for self defense of comp. :)

Lefty

[seagiant]

Hi,
I never pass up a chance to show my "KISS" 1911. Made with a Brazilian Army Slide (1940) made by Colt and a Caspian NM frame! Another thing very important not known by the novice is that the extractor has to be right! Not only for extracting but even more for feeding!

One has to think if JMB (a genius)came back today and looked at his 1911 and what has happened with it, what upgrades would HE make to the weapon???

[MtGun44]

Probably the only thing Browning would change is the link over to a Browning HP type
of cam. Slightly simpler and fewer parts. Otherwise there is little to change on the
design. I am kinda surprised that with all the crazy mods that nobody has ever done
the OBVIOUS one - the one that JB hisself did on his next autopistol - his last design,
the Browning HP.

Like Burt Rutan told me: "Simplicate and add lightness" - talking about airplane design,
but pretty much applicable to guns, too.

By the way: Anybody know where my next boolit is? Got over 13K posts but only 12 boolits. . . .
part of the ammo shortage? ;-)

Bill