1911 "bent" extractor

[prs]

I am fairly new to the 1911 scene. I noticed my extractor was bent. Did not seem to hinder function, but I figured I was at fault for having loaded quite a few rounds by dropping a round into the chamber and letting the action slam shut as is normal practice with a Browning 1911 and many other shotguns. I noticed somewhere on this forum that such procedure with this pistol is a "no-no" as is letting the action close under its own spring power when empty; seems odd to me that JMB would have such a weakness in design, but so be it, I suppose.

Anyway, I noticed said extractor to be bent, so I procured a new one. Well, the new one was bent some too! Read the destruction sheet that came with the new one and it explained that it is supposed to be bent and how to fine tune and test it by increasing or decreasing said bend. Duh? Live and learn. The OE extractor is not bent in the same manner as explained on the sheet, the OE is bent more to the middle area of the extractor, where as the instruction sheet called for the bend to be more out toward the business end of the device. Good to have a spare anyway.

prs

[gray wolf]

The JMB 1911 is a control feed pistol, IE, it has an internal extractor and is designed to strip a round from the mag. and while doing so it allows the cartridge rim to tuck ( slide under the extractor ) at this point it is captured by the extractor.
it then proceeds on it's trip into the chamber, but first it hits the feed ramp and then the top of the chamber,
AND then it straightens out and goes into the chamber. Quite a bit of gymnastics.
dropping the slide while having a round in the chamber is a no, no, it can chip the delicate hook that grabs the rim of the case. Also do not drop the slide on an empty chamber as this can and most times will be harmful to the sear/ sear hammer hook engagement surfaces.
I doubt you bent the extractor, it is made to have a bend in it, this bend dictates the amount of hold the extractor has on the case rim ( case tension ). To little can result in stove pipes and last round early release of the case causing a jam between the breach face and the slide to name a few problems. To much case tension has it's share of annoying little demons also. It's not uncommon for the bend to be in a slightly different place
but there is a correct way to do it. I don't know how you are relating a 1911 to a shotgun.
If you own a 1911 pattern pistol you should really do a little research as to the proper way it needs to be handled. ( no slam, just a little advise )
Pistols: Beretta 96 f and the likes have an outside extractor like S&W and some others, the extractor on those are OK to drop a round into the chamber and close the slide.
If you do not know what you are doing, and I am guessing you do not, then don't mess with trying to bend the extractor yourself. A little goes a long way.

[Sax.45]

You can test it easily, remove the slide and barrel, from underneath the slide slip a cartridge under the extractor claw, the bullet should have a slight droop. shake the slide lightly, the bullet should stay put under the extractor. shake it a bit harder the bullet should drop free. That's a bit oversimplified but it will get you in the ballpark. Shoot the gun with your normal loads and watch where the cases land, if they are basically going straight up and hitting you on the head you need more tension, if they are landing 3-4 feet back and to the right you should be good to go. Like I said, this is a bit simplified but it will get you headed in the right direction as other factors can come into play.

[prs]

Grey Wolf, you are far too assumptive and harsh. No slam intended, but if you would apply your reading comprehension skills to the original post, you would notice I already discovered all those goodies you mentioned. In regard to not working on something unless you know what you are doing, I suppose you must either be a virgin or you do not take your own advice. :-) I work on things and research things to achieve a well rounded understanding. Sorry about confusing the issue with the mention of the Browning 1911 shotgun, but that fine weapon is more familiar to me than the pistol and why, when uninitiated, I loaded the pistol incorrectly a few times.

prs

[Kull]

Are you having issues? Don't try and fix something that isn't broke.

Yes it's supposed to have a bend to it.

Dropping a round into the chamber and letting the slide slam shut isn't normal procedure, neither is letting the slide slam on an empty chamber.

Edit: After though. I was watching youtube vids earlier and one had a part where this guy showed just how you handle a 1911; loading, firing, and unloading.

http://youtu.be/IEIvu_aWccY?t=9m25s

[Char-Gar]

I have been lucky and have not had extractor issues with the many 1911 pistols I have owed over the rears. I had had ejector issues a couple of times, but that is another matter. Thus far, I have no found any need to tweak/bend the extractor beyond what was there when the pistol came into my hands.

These are wonderful pistols and we all learn as we go along about the in and outs of the Browning design.

Kull gave some good counsel on the drill with the 1911. Loaded rounds are fed from the magazine and the slide is eased forward by hand on an empty chambers. Lots of problems are induced in these pistol by folks who do not practice this.

Best of luck with your pistol and shooting it. You should have a great time.

[gray wolf]

I work on things and research things to achieve a well rounded understanding.
That's great, now do it before you screw things up, obviously you have the exercise in reverse.
It's best to acquire the skills first, you will not find your self with an abundance of same without a bit of
beforehand knowledge.
You might also consider one of the many chill pills available. No one here, especially me is trying to do anything but help you.

[markinalpine]

We need a smilie with a little man squirting a firehose at another, as in to cool things down. The WIZ smilie :takinWiz: isn't really appropriate.
JMHO
Mark [smilie=s:

[smokeywolf]

prs,

if you would apply your reading comprehension skills to the original post, you would notice I already discovered all those goodies you mentioned.
I see details included in gray wolf's post that are nowhere to be found in your OP.


Sorry about confusing the issue with the mention of the Browning 1911 shotgun, but that fine weapon is more familiar to me than the pistol and why, when uninitiated, I loaded the pistol incorrectly a few times.
You tried to load the 1911 pistol the same way you load the shotgun?

"too assumptive and harsh"? All I saw in gray wolf's post was constructive advice. You state to begin with, that you are "new to the 1911 scene". Had you done your research as you claim, you in all likelihood would have discovered that you didn't need to purchase a new extractor.

You've been on this forum a long time. I'm a little surprised that you seem unaware that gray wolf is one of the more knowledgeable people on this forum when it comes to the 1911. He is anything but, "new to the 1911 scene". If I was looking for input or advice regarding loads, maintenance or function of the 1911, gray wolf would be one of my first contacts.

It appears to me that you're letting your pride get in the way of benefiting from the knowledge of those who have already "been there and done that".

smokeywolf

[prs]

I appologize to Grey Wolf for my taking his good advice and good intentions as anything less than he intended. I appreciate the constructive tips and critique. I did not intend to offend a fellow shooter and I do recognize his well earned stature here. No chill pills needed here to confess my errant ways.

PigeonRoost Slim

[9.3X62AL]

A lot of good intentions get lost in the textual nature of a bulletin board's content.

I was fortunate enough to have a Dad and a mentor (Leo Reyes) very early in my shooting hobby experience that taught me to ALWAYS feed ALL autopistol chambers from the seated magazine, and to not allow a slide to run home against an empty chamber on ANY autopistol. Kind of a one-size-fits-all method that caters to a generic need, whether specifically required or not. I taught this same regimen in our agency's autopistol adoption training c. 1987, and it was part of the FBI Amended Training for the self-loaders that we used in the lesson plan development. I think it is good practice for any self-loading platform, period.

Like Char-Gar, I've never been plagued by extractor issues in any 1911A1-series pistol I've owned or fired. They have all been quite reliable and tractable for me, with one glaring exception--its cheapness and poor finish taught me a sharp lesson about bargain-hunting for side iron. I donated it to a friend attending Lassen Community College's gunsmithing program, and he turned it into a very nice race gun as part of his schooling.

[MtGun44]

Feeding from the mag is very important for 1911s, as you found. They will survive
the drop into the chamber approach, but it is very hard on the extractor. I fairly
frequently find 1911s with no or too little extractor tension. My check is to make the
extractor require about 5 lbs minimum force to seat the extractor fully into
the slide when assembling. If it takes less, I pull the extractor and insert it reversed
into the slide and use the slide as a handle to GENTLY bend the extractor a touch
and then check the fit again. Easy to do and always works.

Bill

[tomme boy]

I thought I seen another way to test your extractor was to feed a live round into the chamber, then drop the mag. Now fire the round with no mag in the gun. With the mag it the gun, it will helps guide the case out of the chamber to the ejector. This shows if your extractor is really tuned right or not. They recommended to do this 16 times. The cases must fall between the 2 o'clock and 5 o'clock area.

If it is not tensioned correctly, it will get smashed in the slide.

[gray wolf]

I thought I seen another way to test your extractor was to feed a live round into the chamber, then drop the mag. Now fire the round with no mag in the gun. With the mag it the gun, it will helps guide the case out of the chamber to the ejector. This shows if your extractor is really tuned right or not. They recommended to do this 16 times. The cases must fall between the 2 o'clock and 5 o'clock area.
If it is not tensioned correctly, it will get smashed in the slide.
If an extractor is bad or getting bad it could very well start to show on the last round, Just not having the support from a round in the mag is enough to let the last round drop down. A crushed case between the breach face and the frame is most times what happens. The front of the case gets two V shape dents, one on each side.

[tomme boy]

So this would be a good test then?????

[gray wolf]

So this would be a good test then?????
IMHO that is a hard question to answer, My thinking is like this.
With the slide removed from the pistol and a case placed under the extractor, Some/most/ a few, pistols will hold a case tight to the breach face, there is always a bit of wiggle room, shake the slide up and down and side to side, if the case falls off the hook the extractor probably need some tension.
(This test is mostly done with a dummy round for the weight.)
Under normal working conditions when the slide comes back the empty case gains some support from the next round in the mag, it helps hold the empty case horizontal. A properly tensioned extractor should still hold the case when extracting the last round even without the support of a round under it. If the tension is a tad week it can let the case fall and the ejection cycle can get fowled up and cause the case to jam against the slide.
My problem be it a small one with your test is the extractor may be fine but the shock of a test like that may be to much for some pistols and the case may drop even though the extractor may be OK. For me that is the shady area, and I am not sure how doing it 16 times plays into the test. It may be a valid test I have never heard of it and that neither makes it right or wrong. I would not want to over tension the extractor and enable a new set of problems. Like said above the standard test seems to be the one talked about above by me and others. Slide removed, a Dummy round under the hook and give the slide a shake or two.
If I have a problem at the range with a less than normal last round extraction I keep an eye on the extractor,
If need be it's a quick fix to lock the slide back, using a small punch press in the firing pin and drop the FPS
remove the firing pin and with the same small punch remove the extractor, check the tunnel for dirt and other crud, if needed I can give the extractor a slight bend at this time. Some pistols seem to need a little more attention than others. A small tool/jig is also available to help someone unfamiliar with the process of proper extractor tension. Just keep in mind a little goes a long way.
The extractor should also be held tight in it's position in the extractor tunnel. The bend helps but the firing pin stop ( FPS ) should be a reasonably tight fit. this ensures against the extractor clocking ( turning in the tunnel )
A clocking extractor can cause the spent cases to have an erratic ejection pattern letting some cases land here and some land there and some down your shirt. The angle of the ejection, high, low straight out to the side can be controlled by the angle on the face of the ejector. All these tweaks are small but have a large effect on the outcome.
As for over springing a 1911 to make it function, that is a recoil spring other than a 16# spring for ball ammo or even most target ammo is a fix for a problem that has not been addressed or fixed. You overpower the problem with the brute force of the stronger spring.
I hope my rambling hasn't confused the issue.

[35remington]

A bit of a gentle correction to the description of how the 1911 feeds made earlier.

The extractor does not and will not pick up the rim until AFTER the cartridge is released from the magazine. That means the round strikes the feed ramp and, if long enough, the chamber roof before extractor pickup occurs. Extractor pickup occurs as the round straightens on the way to the chamber after it's released from the magazine.

At the time the cartridge is released from the magazine's grip the cartridge rim is below the extractor. But the round has already struck the feedramp. If ball ammo or that with longer OAL, it's also pivoting off the chamber roof long before the rim is anywhere near the extractor. If it's an original tapered lip magazine, the rim of the cartridge has only a short distance to go after it's released from the magazine before it's captured by the extractor. If it's a magazine like a McCormick it has a longer distance to go before it's captured by the extractor.

Extractor pickup is one of the later events to occur, not one of the earlier, when speaking of how the 1911 feeds.

Using original tapered lip magazines makes feeding less of a "gymnastic event" than it would seem as the rear of the round rises as the cartridge goes forward, making the round approach the chamber at a flatter angle.

Want feeding "gymnastics?" Feed a 1911 with a McCormick magazine. There's all the gymnastics the design can stand and then some. Amazing the design can even work at all with a magazine type it was never intended to use.

[PbHurler]

I HIGHLY recommend these two manuals, they should belong in any 1911 owners library IMO.

They explain in great detail how a 1911 functions, and how to correct them if they function incorrectly. Great information here.

[prs]

I thought I seen another way to test your extractor was to feed a live round into the chamber, then drop the mag. Now fire the round with no mag in the gun. With the mag it the gun, it will helps guide the case out of the chamber to the ejector. This shows if your extractor is really tuned right or not. They recommended to do this 16 times. The cases must fall between the 2 o'clock and 5 o'clock area.

If it is not tensioned correctly, it will get smashed in the slide.

I tried this test today, but not 16 rounds because the three attempts I did make with 3 different 7 rnd magazine types resulted in "V" crushes on each side of case mouths. The other 197 rounds fed and ejected normally to the right and behind me. All ammo 200g 68 clone boolits over 4.4g Tight Group, i.e. mild rounds. Magazines were Ruger (EGW GI? TYPE), Wilson Combat, and an early release style from either MetGar or maybe Metalform. The pistol, a Ruger SR1911 holds onto the dummy round very well as tested with slide removed. I see no need to tweek the bend of the extractor which is now firmly held by a small radius stop.

prs

[Char-Gar]

Yep..If a pistol feeds, fires, extracts and ejects time after time after time, I can think of no reason to tweak the tension on the extractor. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it.", is what comes to mind.

[btroj]

Yep..If a pistol feeds, fires, extracts and ejects time after time after time, I can think of no reason to tweak the tension on the extractor. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it.", is what comes to mind.

Not just a 1911, any gun. Heck, anything. Why do people insist upon fixing things that already work?