Sheering Wad Petals in my Slug Load. Issues?

[Ironduke]

Well after months of waiting, I finally got a pound of Blue Dot for my 1 oz Lee Key Drive Slug loads. Here is my load:
45 gr Blue Dot
Win AA hulls, the gray ones
Win 209 primer
Win 12R
2 x 20 ga hard nitro cards.
1 oz lee drive key slug (though I haven't weighed them. I use Pb bird shot poured into my lead pot)

These loads shoot great, but I haven't put them over the chronograph yet. At 25 yards off hand from a smooth bore Mossberg, these shoot into a nice tight group, maybe 2 inches for 5 shots--I didn't measure, but I was happy for sure. I suspect 4-5 inch groups at 50 from a bench would be possible.

Two issues though. I found one wad and one wad only from my shooting due to the tall grass. The one recovered wad had all 4 petals sheered off. That can't be a good sign, but the load shoots. So should I care about the condition of the wad once fired? I don't see a safety issue, but I do see an issue of consistency. If some wads sheer some or all of their petals, the release can't be consistent. Consistency = accuracy. What changes can I make? On a good note, the wad base looks good; it is not imprinted or misshapen.

The other issue is the crimp. With 2 nitro cards, the 1 oz slug extends to beyond the mouth of the wad. In theory, this should help protect the petals from being damaged by the crimp. The wad/slug/nitro card combo seats over the powder and makes my crimp bulge out the front. In other words, the folds don't close 100% and they form a small, shallow cone that protrudes slightly beyond the rim of the crimp. I can press the cone flatter with my thumb. I can't imagine this would cause any detonation issues in the magazine tube, and I can't see any other issues except consistency. I'd prefer each round to be fully closed and the crimp to be square with the crimp. What can I do here? Is there a different wad that would be better?

Thanks for your advice.

Paul

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Paul, I wish you had posted some pictures for us to see how it looks etc.
Perhaps you need to try with only one .170-12 or .125-12 nitro card and see how your crimp looks, I mean fold crimp!

" A happy man is one who loads his own slugs and burn's powder at the range" - Super Blazing Sabots!

“Successful people are always looking for opportunities to help others. Unsuccessful people are always asking, 'What's in it for me?'”

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"An inventor fails 999 times, and if he succeeds once, he's in.
He treats his failures simply as practice shots. ~ Charles F. Kettering

Best regards,
Ajay
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[Ironduke]

With only one nitro card the slug is about even with the mouth of the wad. I understand this will damage the petals of the wad.

As far as crimp, I crimp with my Lee Load All shotgun loader. Whatever type of crimp that puts on is what i have.

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Paul, as long as your slug looks like on the right 4 from extreme right its Ok, don't forget if need be you can simply cut the petals with scissor 1/16 to make it look like I have shown on the right.
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/LeeDriveKeysluginwadcopy.jpg (http://s232.photobucket.com/user/Dantebeowulf/media/LeeDriveKeysluginwadcopy.jpg.html)
sorry about that, I forgot to put the picture!
Let the wad petals trail behind without getting mangled in the process!

The Lee Load All can do a great job with the fold crimp, so that should be no problem.

" A happy man is one who loads his own slugs and burn's powder at the range" - Super Blazing Sabots!

“Successful people are always looking for opportunities to help others. Unsuccessful people are always asking, 'What's in it for me?'”

"Be the change that you wish to see in the world."
- Mahatma Gandhi

"An inventor fails 999 times, and if he succeeds once, he's in.
He treats his failures simply as practice shots. ~ Charles F. Kettering

Best regards,
Ajay
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-Elite Group of Slug Shooter's
We all, who take slug loading seriously are a dedicated family, who have taken it upon ourselves to perfect our tech. We experiment to find better techniques and share our knowledge.
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-Elite Group of Slug Shooter's
We all, who take slug loading seriously are a dedicated family, who have taken it upon ourselves to perfect our tech. We experiment to find better techniques and share our knowledge.

[Ironduke]

Ok. A pic does say 1000 words, so here are some pics.

Here is the crimp. Note how the crimp bulges out the front. Use of 1 nitro card would fix this, but 1 nitro card leads to the petals extending beyond the slug.
84958

Here is the lone recovered wad. The base seems pretty flat and square, but all petals are sheered off.
84959

Here is the Lee 1 oz slug sitting on top of 1 nitro card (left) and 2 nitro cards (right). I see that I could shave the petals down 1/16 or so on the left wad to have the slug extend past the wad, but I don't know how consistent that would be. Plus they get sheered off anyway.
84960

Here is a pic that gives more perspective. Sorry it's sideways.
84961

As far as my load, I think I should be safe up to maybe 49 gr of the blue dot. I don't care to push the envelope pressure wise, but I'd like to get this slug up to 1400 or so to compete with other commercial slug loads. Not being very experienced with shot loads, how do you know when you start getting into pressure issues? What are the signs? I load 30 or so different rifle and pistol cartridges so I am familiar with pressure signs with brass cartridges, but what about these cheesy plastic hulls? How do you know when you are getting dangerous pressure?

[Hogtamer]

45 grns of blue dot takes a heap of space. Federal hulls will give you more room to work with. What did it do for your shoulder?

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Paul, the picture are looking good and if all you are looking for 1400 fps from that Lee 1 oz slug you already have reached it and beyond with 44 to 45 gr of Blue Dot.

Let me say one thing, if you are getting good hunting accuracy from the load and you still find the petals all torn then do not even bother to bend down and look for
the petals as long as you can have a clean harvest.

I will like you to do one basic test tho before you go and load a bunch:
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/Wadslugfitinbarrelcopy.jpg (http://s232.photobucket.com/user/Dantebeowulf/media/Wadslugfitinbarrelcopy.jpg.html)

Some of your pressure signs:
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/CCI209Mprimersignscopy.jpg (http://s232.photobucket.com/user/Dantebeowulf/media/CCI209Mprimersignscopy.jpg.html)
Take a good look at these for pressure signs from the primers:
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/PrimercratermarksonFedExpandercopy.jpg (http://s232.photobucket.com/user/Dantebeowulf/media/PrimercratermarksonFedExpandercopy.jpg.html)
Very few well thought of guns are designed to show these marks:
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/Extractormarkscopy.jpg (http://s232.photobucket.com/user/Dantebeowulf/media/Extractormarkscopy.jpg.html)
This is a no no for us slug loaders and it does happen more often than you can imagine:
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/Powerslipping.jpg (http://s232.photobucket.com/user/Dantebeowulf/media/Powerslipping.jpg.html)
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/Loosefittingwadscopy_zps93272de6.jpg (http://s232.photobucket.com/user/Dantebeowulf/media/Loosefittingwadscopy_zps93272de6.jpg.html)
by just cutting a 1 inch strip of plain paper and putting a 1 inch square on the powder will fix this powder migration for good like this:
http://i1317.photobucket.com/albums/t629/BlazingSabots/Paperwraparoundcopy_zps16377590.jpg (http://s1317.photobucket.com/user/BlazingSabots/media/Paperwraparoundcopy_zps16377590.jpg.html)
Even the birds are more organized:
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/Organizedlanding.jpg (http://s232.photobucket.com/user/Dantebeowulf/media/Organizedlanding.jpg.html)
We are changing the way the slugs are being loaded and along with your help we are sure to succeed, keep it up brother for we are all in it!

" A happy man is one who loads his own slugs and burn's powder at the range" - Super Blazing Sabots!

“Successful people are always looking for opportunities to help others. Unsuccessful people are always asking, 'What's in it for me?'”

"Be the change that you wish to see in the world."
- Mahatma Gandhi

"An inventor fails 999 times, and if he succeeds once, he's in.
He treats his failures simply as practice shots. ~ Charles F. Kettering

Best regards,
Ajay
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We all, who take slug loading seriously are a dedicated family, who have taken it upon ourselves to perfect our tech. We experiment to find better techniques and share our knowledge.
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-Elite Group of Slug Shooter's
We all, who take slug loading seriously are a dedicated family, who have taken it upon ourselves to perfect our tech. We experiment to find better techniques and share our knowledge.

[dverna]

Ironduke,

Do not count on 4" groups at 50 yards if you are getting 2" at 25 yards. Life is rarely that kind - at least to me. But if you are getting good accuracy I would not worry about the petals being sheared off.

I am not sure why Ajay feels that a few flakes of powder migrating past the wad is a concern but he has done a ton of work on slugs. I do not use translucent hulls so I do not know if I have a problem or not. Using a wad designed for a tapered hull in a straight wall hull will likely result in more migration. I use Federal wads in Federal hulls but it looks like even the Federal wads do not do well if we examine Ajay's photo. I wonder if a Federal wad in a tapered hull would help but without pressure data, I am not willing to try it, and I am not aware of any "see-through" AA's or STS's.

Don Verna

[phaessler]

In my experience with slug loading I found the ridge at the edge ofthe chamber to be the culprit. I had pronounced petal shearing when using 2 3/4" hulls in a 3" chamber. Went to a 3" hull, using the appropriate fillers to essentially put a 2 3/4" load column in , and alot of it went away.
Again if its accurate, repeatably accurate, and the pressures are safe (difficult to read in a plastic hull, but there are some good reads here if you searchfor them on pressure) following the recommended load data/recipes, then I wouldnt worry.
I would like to know if the wads are true Winchester manufacture, or knock-offs (Claybusters). I have found a great difference in the two when it comes to durability.

Pete

[longbow]

Ar first I thought maybe the Lee skirt might be bumping up a bit and shearing the petals as I have had that happen with some slugs though the Lees are tapered. However, I see that you are using birdshot not pure lead so that shouldn't be happening anyway.

I do find the Win AA Reds to be thick and soft plastic though and generally with my slug loads they do shear petals easily.

How is the slug/wad fit to bore? If tight I would try a thinner petal wad. That might help.

Longbow

[Ironduke]

What did it do for your shoulder?

Actually, it's not that bad. For whatever reason, this shotgun is the mildest shooting 12 ga gun I have ever shot. My Mossberg 835 UM seems to kick more, and bruises my cheek bone with 3 1/2inch loads. even the 3 inch loads seem to kick more in that gun. I suspect the angle of the butt stock is a bit different on this 500A1. But then I usually shoot rifles, and compared to some of my big boomers, recoil of this gun is a ***** cat. It's no 458 Lott for sure.

[Ironduke]

Ok. I believe I have found the problem. I took a random slug, placed it into the 12R wad and tried to push it into the bore as in the instructions above. No-Go. I can't measure 6-10 lb of pressure, but I know my thumb was pushing hard, and the slug/wad was not going into the muzzle more than half way. Since the Lee slug is tapered slightly it would only get tighter the more I pushed. This is a cylinder bore gun, no choke. I tapped the slug/wad back out the muzzle with a cleaning rod, inserted two nitro cards under the slug to see if it would fit with the slug positioned at the thinner part of the petals. No dice. Same snug fit. This time at least I didn't push the wad in so hard I had to tap it out.

I think this is why the petals are sheering off--the fit is too tight. My gun is the mil-spec 590A1 with the heavy barrel, but i don't want to blow it up. With the slug fitting this tightly, am I being dangerous with this load? What components can I use to make a nice snug, but safe load? I don't mind buying new hulls and wads. I'll just reserve these for shot loads instead of slugs.

[jmort]

Go through Ajay's Blazing Sabot thread and he has many examples of your slug with wad combos. I have read through Ajay's thread from beginning to end a few times. Here is an example:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?150140-VdoMemorie-Blazing-Sabot!/page6

Check out post # 107. There are many other posts that will help you. I would suggest reading the entire thread, quite an education.

[newcastter]

Just an observation but tell me if I am off, the number on the botom of the wad tells me that it is actually a claybuster wad a knock off of the Winchester and while they work perfectly fine for trap/shot loads they have there downside on slug loads. If I am correct then that would be the problem of the tight fit causing shearing pedals. Actual winchester brand hulls have a thinner pedal.

[Ironduke]

Just an observation but tell me if I am off, the number on the botom of the wad tells me that it is actually a claybuster wad a knock off of the Winchester and while they work perfectly fine for trap/shot loads they have there downside on slug loads. If I am correct then that would be the problem of the tight fit causing shearing pedals. Actual winchester brand hulls have a thinner pedal.

You are correct, sir. I was thinking these were Winchesters, but they arein fact CB 1138-12 ClayBusters.

[GBertolet]

Here are some of my observations from my experience with the Lee 1 oz slug. Too tight of a fit in the bore will shear off the petals. I found that WW AA white wads are the thinnest at .025. .025 X 2 = .050. Add that value to the diameter of your slug and compare to your bore diameter. The diameters of the slugs vary, .682 to .685 are common sizes. That's how tight you are going to be in the barrel. I made several pushthrough sizer dies, to reduce the slugs to more closely match various bore diameters. Don't use the Claybuster generics, but the original AA wads. Secondly, if your fit is tight, and if you cast the slugs of pure lead or soft alloy, the base of the slug obturates out upon firing, creating a sharp edge, shearing the petal(s) off right there. I know this, because with a 1/8" 20 gauge spacer wad under the slug, the petals shear 1/8" from the bottom of the shotcup. Without any spacer wad, the petal(s) shear even with the base of the shotcup. Casting out of a harder alloy will help this problem.

[Hogtamer]

Good observation GB. I have not achieved good wad results but I have achieved good accuracy w/ 7/8 oz lee slugs; in the end, the target tells the story.

[newcastter]

You are correct, sir. I was thinking these were Winchesters, but they arein fact CB 1138-12 ClayBusters.
I think we pin pointed it....try out Winchester brand wads. Do you have any available to you? I have alot and would be willing to send you a dozen or so to try out. PM me if interested.

[evan price]

What about the grey winchester 7/8 oz wad?
Since a 1 oz lee slug is shorter than a 1 oz shot column maybe that would work better with no nitro cards?
I am going to start casting lee slugs myseld. Never loaded shotgun before so I am studying a lot.

[newcastter]

I use 1-1/8 (white) wads because the shock column (if thats what its called) is shorter so I can get better crimps with more powder and or a nitro card. I use nitro cards between slug and wad instead of just slug and wad so the wad has a clean release from the slug. Most of the time I find my wads all at about 20yds and they are all together pretty consistant. In turn this all helps with accuracy.
This is what I have found to work for me.

What about the grey winchester 7/8 oz wad?
Since a 1 oz lee slug is shorter than a 1 oz shot column maybe that would work better with no nitro cards?
I am going to start casting lee slugs myseld. Never loaded shotgun before so I am studying a lot.

[Ironduke]

I think we pin pointed it....try out Winchester brand wads. Do you have any available to you? I have alot and would be willing to send you a dozen or so to try out. PM me if interested.

I appreciate it. i looked on Midway, natchez and midsouth but found no Winchester wads in stock. The claybusters are available as are federal. I guess what I need is to find a new wad. I appreciate your offer, but best case scenario, the Winchester wads work perfectly, I still can't get my own supply. I think what I need is to find a wad that works AND I can buy.

As far as the slug obturating, I don't doubt your experience, but I use the nitro cards for 2 reasons. The first is to extend the slug past the end of the petals. The other is to keep the wad from deforming and being pressed into the base of my slug. My first range day with this slug provided dismal results accuracy wise, and the wads were all misshapen where they pressed into the cavity on the base of the slug resulting in the wads releasing inconsistently.

Looking at my photo above shows the petals sheered off at the base even with using two hard nitro cards. This evidence indicates the petals are being sheered by something else, not the obturating base of the slug.

What I need is more research. I need to recover more wads to make sure this singular wad is indicative of the load in general. Still, I wish I had a sizing die as mentioned above. I could press the slugs through the die and size them down a few couple or few thou. This would make the slugs more uniform as well as fix my problem with the slug being too snug.

[pipehand]

Precision Reloading has the Win WAA12's in stock. They do pretty well with the single nitro wad under the slug.

http://www.precisionreloading.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=PRE&Category_Code=WADS_WINCH

They seem to be in stock on the Federal 12S3's which are another tough thin petaled wad.

http://www.precisionreloading.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=PRE&Category_Code=WADS_FEDE

I checked availability with Midsouth, as they have a banner here, but ally they have is clone wads.

[Ironduke]

Ok. Well all the pics look like the same stock photo of the Win wads. Which one is the shortest one? I think I need the shortest one I can get as far as the cushion part.

[Hogtamer]

Waa-12r is the old red short wad.

[newcastter]

As far as the slug obturating, I don't doubt your experience, but I use the nitro cards for 2 reasons. The first is to extend the slug past the end of the petals. The other is to keep the wad from deforming and being pressed into the base of my slug. My first range day with this slug provided dismal results accuracy wise, and the wads were all misshapen where they pressed into the cavity on the base of the slug resulting in the wads releasing inconsistently.

Looking at my photo above shows the petals sheered off at the base even with using two hard nitro cards. This evidence indicates the petals are being sheered by something else, not the obturating base of the slug.
Not sure what you are refering to here?? I never mentioned anything about obturating. I use nitro cards for the same reason you have described except I only use one.

[phaessler]

The Winchester AA-12R (red) have been out of production for almost 10years. The knock offs in my opinion, as previously stated are ok for shot loads, but suffer for slug loading.

Pete

[newcastter]

I use theWinchester brand WAA12 White wad that is the shortest I am aware of. Thanks for clearing that up phaessler I had never seen those wads Hogtamer was recomending.....

[Greg5278]

Why are we still messing around with slugs in Wads, and the fit Problems? Why don't the Casters hit up Lyman to make a full bore hollow base Mold? I haven't found the wad slugs to be super accurate, and they are often frustating to get them to shoot well. The Full bore slugs don't Lead the bore if they are Alox washed or Sprayed with CRC corrosion inhibitor. The wad slugs seem to be a complex solution to a simple problem.
Greg
AKA 12 Bore

[Ironduke]

Not sure what you are refering to here?? I never mentioned anything about obturating. I use nitro cards for the same reason you have described except I only use one.

It was a different post. Sorry for the confusion.

[Ironduke]

Well I took some more of my loads to the range for a more formal shooting experience. Accuracy was in the 5-6 inch range at 50 yards. I'm not satisfied with that, I don't think, but I need to shoot some factory loads to see how mine compare. As far as petals, I found a bunch of wads with one or two petals sheered off, but I recovered zero wads with no petals sheered off. So every shot sheers off at least a petal.

I believe the Clay Buster wads are the culprit, but I looked for the WAA 12 wads, and they look to be too long in the buffer area. I need a different wad I think. Although I still believe being able to size the slugs down a few thousandths would be beneficial.

But what I really want is a full diameter slug with an attached stabilizing wad like the Brenneke slugs or the Wolf knock offs. Those slugs shoot more accurately in this gun, and the large diameter, blunt face must apply more traumatic terminal performance than the rounded nose of the Lee. I know there is lots of experimentation on this site in trying to develop accurate loads with attached wads. I also notice Midway sells some purpose built slugs with attached stabilizing wads. But I want something cheap that I can cast. I guess that's the dream of us all.