Disaster with my SMLE

[brassrat]

:-P... well maybe just more headaches. My 1917 Mk l seemed to be finally all set after 35+ yrs. My peep-type sight wouldn't adjust with factory loads and I started, this year, with some cast boolets and some learnin. After acquiring my first M dies,the bullets are going in straight, FINALLY and I could adjust the sights and got a few 1 1/2 groups at 50 yds. I was thrilled. I tried another load today and got nothing but all out keyholes [smilie=b: The other loads keyholed too [smilie=b:..:-(.. I ran a drill-powered brush down the barrel a few weeks ago to really scrub her out or something. The bore looks great with strong, shiny rifling now a little better looking than it usually did. Does it sound like I had just enough fouling to stabilize before but now, no? loads were 11.5 gr Trail Boss and the newest is 12 gr. Unique. I used the same 200 gr. boolet at .314 and cases were fire-formed. Will be attempting my first bore slugging, tomorrow, I think I have the necessary stuff. Will do now now if anyone wants to play. Thanks for read.ing

[Ben]

NEVER, I repeat NEVER run a drill powered brush in a rifle barrel.

[flounderman]

If you ran it from the muzzle end you could have damaged the crown.

[HollowPoint]

My Enfield used to do the same thing and I never did figure out why my bullets were key-holing. I tried higher velocities, shorter lighter bullets, cleaning the barrel and got no improvement.

I finally ended up re-barreling and the problem went away.

I don't think a less than perfect crown would cause your bullets to key-hole. They'd maybe just give you bad accuracy.

HollowPoint

[N4AUD]

I had a Brazilian Mauser in 7x57 that keyholed. It was a case of oversized bore. Perhaps the drill powered brush removed enough material to make the bore larger? I made a simple electronic bore cleaner to remove metal fouling from my bores and it did a fine job without ruining my barrel. Google electronic bore cleaner and you'll find plans for it. I had a 12v lamp inline on mine, when the lamp went out I pulled the steel rod and it would be completely coated with gunk. I would clean it then give it another go, and keep doing this until nothing else got on the rod. All you need is a wall wart, a steel rod, a 12v lamp and some type of stopper for your chamber. You can clean your barrel without damaging it.

[TCLouis]

If I read your post corrcctly you changed powders and got different results.

Go back to original load and see what you get.

[square butte]

Slug the bore. You may need a .316. Many do

[adrians]

Slug the bore. You may need a .316. Many do

Yup,,,,, I do , NOE 316299 :twisted:

[brassrat]

I should have noticed that this in wrong category and it is pretty obvious if I had read the category description. I don't have proper size slugging material but managed to get some ideas using my .314 boolets. The muzzle gives decent resistance, but nearing half way, the boolet basically falls thru. Time to look for bigger projectiles. This is puzzling cause, like I said, the gun was shooting well with perfect, little, round holes. I think that I have drill- cleaned my last barrel. Hope my keyhole target will be a warning to others lol. The other is my barrel from the (formerly) scary end....:-(

http://i1123.photobucket.com/albums/l542/g5uis23ft5h/th_1020131254-Copy_zpscaecfe4f.jpg (http://s1123.photobucket.com/user/g5uis23ft5h/media/1020131254-Copy_zpscaecfe4f.jpg.html)





http://i1123.photobucket.com/albums/l542/g5uis23ft5h/th_IMG_0001-Copy_zps24accdde.jpg (http://s1123.photobucket.com/user/g5uis23ft5h/media/IMG_0001-Copy_zps24accdde.jpg.html)




FEEL FREE TO MOVE POST TO 'MILITARY RIFLE' CATEGORY OR HELP WITH MOVE....:-P

[Bent Ramrod]

The last barrel I had that looked usable, with "strong if dark rifling," but keyholed bullets anyway, had a worn muzzle. The rifling looked as good as anywhere else in the barrel but the bore was trumpet shaped from careless use of cleaning rods. I couldn't tell by looking, but a couple of lead balls, one tapped into the muzzle, tapped out, and measured, and another tapped further into the barrel for comparison showed the wear.

I sent the old blunderbuss in for a reline job, which fixed it.

[brassrat]

Well no matter the cause, and I think I can rule out my reloading, I went and loaded my last 8 cases and topped the 10 gr. of Trail Boss off with a dippers worth of instant Creme of Wheat. [smilie=p:.. I have to wait till weekend to test.I belong to weekend only range.

[303Guy]

That bore looks pretty good. If it tapers down toward the muzzle then all the better. As already stated, a worn muzzle won't cause key-holing.

I have a few SMLE's with bore's so large they should be called 8 millimetres!

I like fire-lapping to clean out and buff a bore. Not with j-words but with a dab of grinding paste between a cast boolit and a card wad supported by corn meal over bran filler. It cleans out rust too.

Some folks have had success with using wheat bran filler. It acts as a wad which prevents gas cutting of the undersize boolit.

Then again your existing boolit might do well with a paper patch. Do a search for my pig gun project. That bore looks like a sewer pipe yet it shoots paper patched quite well.

[brassrat]

Yes .303 I thought the barrel still looked good, even with the severe cleaning that it didn't need. I think I read some posts of yours, lately and thought to myself that paper patches must be a hassle for the poor blokes that need to. It looks like I may have to now, but will check to see if the gunstore has something else in boolets. He has a local guy keeping him pretty well stocked. I carry his .45 ACP in a 250 gr.SWC, and his 200 gr's shoot really well. Hopefully the cereal will work.

[Goatwhiskers]

Brassrat, I am certainly no expert on fillers, but I'd be very careful with that TB load. I'm sure you already know this but TB is a very fast burning powder with a sharp pressure rise. If I were going to use a filler I think I would use something like dacron that won't compress before exiting. Anyway, just thinking out loud, wish you luck. GW

[brassrat]

Oh boy I am nervous enough but I read somewhere that it should be OK. I did use 11.5 gr. but cut back to 10 with the wheat load. I got the info off the web--bonjour.

[Win94ae]

NEVER, I repeat NEVER run a drill powered brush in a rifle barrel.

I agree with Ben. I don't see how that could do anything but screw things up.

[10x]

My Enfield used to do the same thing and I never did figure out why my bullets were key-holing. I tried higher velocities, shorter lighter bullets, cleaning the barrel and got no improvement.

I finally ended up re-barreling and the problem went away.

I don't think a less than perfect crown would cause your bullets to key-hole. They'd maybe just give you bad accuracy.

HollowPoint

Cast bullets too small for the bore will give key holing and a crown that is worn or not perpendicular to the bore will do it too.
I had to take almost 1/2 " off the end of my Martini 303 to get down to good rifling that was not washed out by a cleaning rod. The bullets stopped tumbling too.

[leadman]

If you need oversized boolits you can coat yours with Hi-Tek coating/lube. The Red Copper will build up the diameter about .001" to .0015" for each coat.

[brassrat]

Wow coat the bullets sounds great!. I took my Frankensmelly to LGS/ smith today. He says bore looks good and throat is pretty good. He said to just shoot it to foul and I might be good. He will check with caster and says he has .318 for certain 8mm. That should do it, if it doesn't kaboom. yikes.

[brassrat]

Well the COW made for some nice shooting :-P. After those rounds were gone, I shot 8 rounds, with no filler, and they again went sideways.

[dualsport]

Sounds like you're having fun. I'm curious what the inside neck diameter is in a fired case? That should tell you a lot about how big a boolit your .303 will handle. I have .303s that will swallow a .318 easily.

[longbow]

I use COW filler with some graphite powder in my .303 loads regularly with no problems at all. Generally I am loading with IMR4227 which is about my favourite powder.

I worked loads up with filler and have used the filler with powders from Unique to IMR4064. So far best results for me have been with mid range burn rate powders and Unique. Really with Unique you don't need a filler but I was running PB boolits with GC loads and found some leading so reduced the charge some then worked back up with filler. Worked well.

Here is a good read about filler in .303's:

http://www.303british.com/id37.html

I got hold of David Southall after reading his article and he was very helpful.

Longbow

[brassrat]

Well forget everything and maybe use brain bleach, I know that I wanna. The boolets were .309s LOL. They were mis-marked and the couple times that that I measured, I was in the 1st box of 100 or grabbed the ones from that box that got dumped in the 2nd box. The problem started after cleaning barrel so I blamed that. I got a new box that are .314 and a bunch are ready to fire. I learned a little thou. Thanks for all the advice and that link and messages.

[Three44s]

There is no ........ NO senario where one should put a drill on a brush and run it down a rifled barrel.

NONE!

And, yes ....... the crown can and will throw bullets sideways ............

......... but so will an undersized slug.

The most expeditious way to clean leading is to use a worn brush and copper chore boy. NO POWER ......... NO ROTARY .......... just longitudinal strokes by hand.

An electronic cleaner would certainly be fine for mopping up the last traces of lead ........ but the copper chore boy does a MAGNIFICIENT job .............. all by itself for me.


Three 44s

[wistlepig1]

Here is one of the places that tell how to make a simple electronic bore cleaner. hope this helps
No drill please!

http://www.surplusrifle.com/reviews/copperout/index.asp

[brassrat]

The bullets were way undersized at .309. They were hitting nose first, last week. I hacksawed the barrel down, a couple yrs ago, and roughly crowned it. This week I spent some time doing a better job. I did have some problems, this week, getting the necks resized. I removed the full length rod and, even with lube, they barely would resize down. I have Lee dies. Then, loading them, they were wobbly, when rolled.[smilie=b:. I think that the shoulders got a little bent while forcing thru the die So I broke them down and annealed every one and re-full- sized some and neck sized others. I noted these loads in my book and gonna try tomorrow. They are rolling smoothly now.

[303Guy]

It may be relevant to remember that subsonic boolits may need a lot more spin to stabilize, depending on the nose shape. My point being that the stability factor could be quite close to one in which case the slightest destabilizing effect could tip them. Anyway, good luck with your next test.

[10x]

The bullets were way undersized at .309. They were hitting nose first, last week. I hacksawed the barrel down, a couple yrs ago, and roughly crowned it. This week I spent some time doing a better job. I did have some problems, this week, getting the necks resized. I removed the full length rod and, even with lube, they barely would resize down. I have Lee dies. Then, loading them, they were wobbly, when rolled.[smilie=b:. I think that the shoulders got a little bent while forcing thru the die So I broke them down and annealed every one and re-full- sized some and neck sized others. I noted these loads in my book and gonna try tomorrow. They are rolling smoothly now.


The bullets sized at 0.309" may be your main problem. I have had 303s that prefer 0.314" and 0.316" bullets before they would settle down and give good groups.
It is not unusual for an undersized cast bullet to tumble. Add a poor crown or an off square muzzle, or both, and you will have bullets that tumble.

As for the difficult to size problem - if it happens with a lee die, it will happen with any other brand of dies. It is either a case lube issue (did you lube the inside of the necks?) or you seem to have solved it by annealing. What case lube do you use to resize?

I have used a lee case length cutter to true the muzzle and give a 90 degree crown. So long as the gauge shaft is a slip fit in the barrel and one uses 30 weight motor oil to lube so the rifling isn't damaged you can square up the muzzle with the bore real nice. Clean out the oil with break kleen after.

If you are still using 0.309" bullets do not give up, use a 0.312" or 0.314" bullet and see what happens.
When the unexpected happens (tumbling bullets, or huge groups) slug the bore and choose a bullet that is 0.001" or 0.002" over the diameter of the slug. - it will save primers, powder, and time

[robertbank]

I size all my boolits 314 for my Longbranch. When it comes to these old girls bigger is always better IMHO. .309 is just to small and I am quite sure the source of your tumbling boolits.

Take Care

Bob

[10x]

I size all my boolits 314 for my Longbranch. When it comes to these old girls bigger is always better IMHO. .309 is just to small and I am quite sure the source of your tumbling boolits.

Take Care

Bob

I do believe you are right Bob.
BTW we met at an I.D.P.A. training session at the Peace Country Gun Range.
and my wife is visiting family in Terrace right now.

Jerrold

[robertbank]

I do believe you are right Bob.
BTW we met at an I.D.P.A. training session at the Peace Country Gun Range.
and my wife is visiting family in Terrace right now.

Jerrold

Yes we did Jerrold good to hear from you. If you are over in Terrace let me know you are in town. We canhit the range and make some noise. If you need a letter to get a Short Term ATT just let me know.

Take Care

Bob

[303Guy]

I've squared a crown after hacksawing off the tip using a file and a square. I bought a rifle that was hand squared - I've never test fired that one. The problem with that is there is no crown recess.

[brassrat]

My sidestrike boolets are a thing of the past and I have bought more and now mic every one. While reading about annealing, I found that this is best done BEFORE annealing. lol. I did keep the bases cool but my glowing red necks and shoulders would upset some. They all did fire fine and didn't stick at all. I thought they might, being possibly, way too soft. The gun shoots almost 2 feet higher, at 50yds, with a hotter 2400 load and COW, rather than light Trail Boss, but both shot a couple 1/2 inch groups ( of 2) lol.

[CastingFool]

NEVER, I repeat NEVER run a drill powered brush in a rifle barrel.


that's exactly how we cleaned the bores in our miniguns when I was in the Army Guard. Of course, we weren't concerned with MOA groups out of those 6 barrels. By the time they were scheduled to be scrapped, they had 60,000 rounds through them and the rifling was non existent the first 1-1/2" past the throat.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

If I may suggest a relevant article on casting/handloading for the British rifles/Enfields...In a superb book titled, "The Art of Bullet casting" which is still in print (Wolfe Publishing), Jim Carmichael wrote a chapter dealing specifically with choice of molds, casting and handloading for the SMLE rifles. Definitely worth every penny and it offers a wealth of information on many other aspects of what it is all about. LLS

[10x]

Yes we did Jerrold good to hear from you. If you are over in Terrace let me know you are in town. We canhit the range and make some noise. If you need a letter to get a Short Term ATT just let me know.

Take Care

Bob

Shouldn't need a letter, section 63 of the firearms act says A.T.T.s are "Valid throughout Canada".
But apparently I am not to be trusted outside of Alberta.
-20C this morning, the white tails are running, my dude missed a 160 - 170 buck yesterday. He is still crying.

[robertbank]

My son is over in Ft McMurray chasing Bucks this week. Rain and cool here. We are having our last IDPA shoot this morning. We might get one in in Dec. if the snow holds off. Been raining most of the week.

Get after those Whitetails when I lived in Falher there were hundreds of the darn things running around.

Take Care

Bob

[brassrat]

Here is one of the places that tell how to make a simple electronic bore cleaner. hope this helps
No drill please!



http://www.surplusrifle.com/reviews/copperout/index.asp


Thanks for link, that looks interesting, gotta try it

[w5pv]

For whats it is worth on all of my cleaning rods I put heat shrinkable tubing.I think it is not as likely to damage the bore or crown.

[drinks]

I true a muzzle with a really high tech tool, a .79 c brass, 1/4" round head screw and a bit of Clover valve lapping compound, used with a cordless drill.
If the muzzle is really square, this does the job, but an angled cut really needs to be squared up.
They do sell hand powered squaring tools, might look at one if you do much hack sawing of barrels.

[leadman]

I've cut off mil-surp barrels, filed them square, then used a 45 degree countersink to recess the crown. Several of the guns I have done this to shoot moa or better.
Glad the OP figured out what size boolit he was shooting.

[303Guy]

They say an 11 degree crown is best. Yet target and varmint barrels seem to have recessed square crowns.

I've seen a guy 'crown' his muzzle by setting the barrel up in a drill press and running a tapered grinding stone into the muzzle. I still cringe at the thought. That muzzle had a visible uneven ..... not sure what to call it. He denied it was anything other than perfect as he had set it up in the drill press 'perfectly straight'. I just said nothing. I had previously squared that muzzle for him after straightening the barrel which had been driven over by someone. He denied that the barrel was could have been bent as it was then so straight. But it was.

[Echo]

When I had my gunsmith pal assemble my 1917 Enfield (I had a barrelled action I got from my FIL, and got the furniture &cetera from eBay), He bedded it nicely, and it sorta shot all over the place. He did some checking, and found the bore was not concentric with the OD, so the crown wasn't true. He chucked the bbl up in the lathe and recess crowned it maybe 1/32", and it shoots cloverleafs with the right ammo (Hdy165 AMax over 60 gr 4831). And shoots cast nicely, too...

[303Guy]

He did some checking, and found the bore was not concentric with the OD,So how did he crown it in the first place? To me a bore is never concentric to the OD. That's why I've done the square recessed crowns on the few occasions I have done it. I've worked on a barrel (fitted a suppressor) that had been profiled before straightening the bore! That one was tricky. Anyway, that goes to show the importance of a good crown.

[brassrat]

Well, off to try for grouping and test for my same brand, bullet purchase, in my 30-30. These might be great for a hunting guy, if I was one. lol

[nanuk]

For whats it is worth on all of my cleaning rods I put heat shrinkable tubing.I think it is not as likely to damage the bore or crown.

are you not worried about grit embedding itself into the HStubing and causing wear?

I remember reading an article by a BR shooter and he suggested nothing but enamel, or a hard stainless so it can be wiped off completely