Slugged my 03-A3 today

[millerwb]

So I pushed a slug through my 9-43 03-A3 today. The gun has always impressed me with how new it looked when I received it (in pieces) from an estate. There was no wear on the parkerizing. Anyway, the slug measured exactly .308. I could not believe it was that exact. I guess maybe this gun never saw any action after all, maybe.

I got a RCBS 308-165 SIL mold this week as well. Cast with #2 alloy and they drop at 170 grains.

[carolina556]

How do they shoot? What are u sizing them to?

[carolina556]

A lot of the 43-44 barrels I see are basically new, by that time they were issuing garlands to most of the guys so after going back to the armory the 43's and 44's have the new green finish on the receivers and new barrels installed. My 1903 is a 1918 build date and the barrel looks amazing for the age, gun was definitely used a lot but rifling and condition is very good....It's nice when you find one like both of us must have ;)

[MtGun44]

Size .309 at least, .310 or .311 would probably shoot a bit better.

Bill

[Char-Gar]

The wear from shooting would have been in the throat of the barrel and would not show up on a slug pushed the full length, which would give you only the tightest spot.

Size the bullets .310 or .311 unless the throat is quite worn and then .312. Never size smaller than .310. Trust me on this!

The RCBS 165 Sil, does very well in both my 03A3s. .310 is as large as I can get out of my mold, but that is just about perfect for my rifles.

[Char-Gar]

A lot of the 43-44 barrels I see are basically new, by that time they were issuing garlands to most of the guys so after going back to the armory the 43's and 44's have the new green finish on the receivers and new barrels installed. My 1903 is a 1918 build date and the barrel looks amazing for the age, gun was definitely used a lot but rifling and condition is very good....It's nice when you find one like both of us must have ;)

I have never head of "garlands" being issued to American troops. I think you meant Garands. Auto correct is our worse enema.

[millerwb]

The wear from shooting would have been in the throat of the barrel and would not show up on a slug pushed the full length, which would give you only the tightest spot.

Size the bullets .310 or .311 unless the throat is quite worn and then .312. Never size smaller than .310. Trust me on this!

So now I have to ask, what happens if you size at .309?

[Char-Gar]

My post was predicated on the assumption that you wanted the best possible accuracy. If you don't, then size as you wish. It does not matter to me.

[sparky45]

Probably apt to get more Leading and less accuracy.

[45 2.1]

My post was predicated on the assumption that you wanted the best possible accuracy. If you don't, then size as you wish. It does not matter to me.


Probably apt to get more Leading and less accuracy.

This site is contrary most of the time. You see people posting what they think is best... and you'll see diverse opinions 180 degrees apart. Too little time is put into seeing what does best in the barrel you have. The OP never stated if he had a two or four groove barrel. That little fact makes a difference on just what you do with the boolit in question or whether you should choose another. Assumptions make an @$$ out the guy who does that most of the time. If the OP has a two groove, then the RCBS boolit could do very well at 0.309" and shoot a lot more accurately than our older member thinks. He would do well trying Unique at close to upper part of it's load range. If he has a four groove he may just want to go 0.311" (which that mold may not do). This is just part of the fun of cast.

[Scharfschuetze]

This will go against the grain, but I'd recommend for you to test the diameters for yourself. It won't take but a day at the range to determine the proper diameter for your bullet. All good advice above, but the reality of it is that your rifle is in your hands shooting your boolts. You may very well find the advice correct, but you won't know until you try.

An example from my gun safe is the 03A3 with a 2 groove bore that measured in at .308" that I had in the mid 70s through the late 90s and the most accurate diameter for both a Hoch 190 grain bore rider boolit as well as the RCBS 180 grain FP boolit was ".309." 20 some years of shooting it convinced me of that. Thinking back on that rifle, I once shot my limit of 10 cottontails with 12 shots using the RCBS 115 grain boolit sized at .309." Ranges were out to 70 some yards on the side of Grand Mesa in Colorado and most were head shot to save the meat.

Edit: Looks like 45 2.1 posted while I was composing my thoughts. +1 on his comments.

[millerwb]

My barrel is a two grove.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

O3-A3 two groove barrels will tend to shoot somewhat better with bore-riding design bullets such as the Lyman 311334 and the RCBS SIL bullets which have a comparatively shorter bullet body and a long(er) nose. The bullet body should measure .309-.311 and the nose part should be at least .3015. Undersize dimensions will result in the bullet tending to slump in the bore. The two groove barrels have most of the bore circumference occupied by lands and these will positively guide the longer nose which rides on top of them. This design also works better in the 1917 rifles which have 5 groove rifling. Extensive testing was done on this by Harrison in his investigations on the performance of 30 cal cast bullets. An outstanding performer was the old RG-4 Saeco design that is now the Saeco 301. Some rifleman also "bumped up" noses to make them better fit the bore. LLS

[MattOrgan]

The only way to know is to shoot the bullets sized at various diameters. The poster may be like a lot of us and has one sizer in 30 caliber. I have a couple of 308 Winchester rifles that I shot for years with light loads ( 1200-1600 fps) sized to .308 because that's the sizing die I had. Groups were often less than 2 inches at 100 making it a valuable practice load. There are few hard and fast rules in bullet casting.

[millerwb]

Matt, you are correct in that I only have a .308 sizer die at the moment. When my order comes in this week, I will also have a .309. Will try both and see how they do. I am not looking for competition accuracy at this point. If .309 does not work well, then I will get a .310 die.

[Char-Gar]

The only way to know is to shoot the bullets sized at various diameters. The poster may be like a lot of us and has one sizer in 30 caliber. I have a couple of 308 Winchester rifles that I shot for years with light loads ( 1200-1600 fps) sized to .308 because that's the sizing die I had. Groups were often less than 2 inches at 100 making it a valuable practice load. There are few hard and fast rules in bullet casting.

Cast bullet shooting is not voodoo or magic. Best accuracy is given by bullets the size of the barrel throat to introduce the bullet into the rifling straight. This true until pressures get high enough to expand the bullet base before it hits the rifling. A stronger/harder alloy also is a big help in keeping retarding the premature expansion of the base at higher pressures. Bullets shot at higher pressure will most often do better smaller than throat diameter. However at the pressures we most often use throat diameter bullets will produce best accuracy.

The throat size will be determined by the reamer used to cut the chamber, which will vary with rifle makers. You can pretty well count on a .310 bullet doing best in an 03A3 due to it's throat size. If the throat is worn by use the .311 or even .312 will produce best accuracy.

The 03A3 is a popular rifle used in the Cast Bullet Association military rifle matches and the bullet diameters are recorded and published. A reading of that material will show the winning scores are shot with .310 or .311 bullets.

When I counsel the use of .310 or .311 bullets in the 03A3 I am not pulling those numbers out of my butt but from the specs of the rifles and the extensive experience of myself and others with the 03A3 rifle.

I have extensive experience with the RCBS 165 Sil (The OPs bullet) in both 4 groove and 2 groove 03A3 barrels and it does equally well in both. This is not true of some other bullet designs, but it is true of this particular RCBS bullet. Therefore I didn't, consider the number of grooves in the OPs barrel to be a significant issue as long as he sticks to his chosen bullet.

It one understands the reasons why one bullet size does better than another and understands the rifle in question good results can be predicted. Voodoo and trial and error are poor substitutes for actually understanding how the things actually work.

My initial response to the OP was based on my extensive experience with the bullets (RCBS 165 Sil) in the 03A3 rifle of which I have two examples. I had to make the assumption that he was interested in maximum accuracy at velocities of 1,900 fps or slower. However assumptions are always risky business.

If the OP isn't interested in maximum accuracy then .308 or .309 will prove satisfactory. I am not satisfied until a rifle will give me the absolute finest accuracy it has. I am a serious rifle man and not a plinker. I do understand that many folks are not looking for max accuracy, but lessons learned by those who do, can help the plinkers hit more of their targets as well. Whatever the target, it is a good feeling to shoulder a rifle knowing that if you don't hit the target it is your fault and not that of the rifle or load.

If the OP wants to push the bullets 2,0000 or faster then that opens up an different set of parameters which requires a different response.

I had no intention of continuing on this thread, but all to often I read about cast bullets diameter being really mysterious and one just doesn't know what his rifle likes and knowledge is gained by trial and error. Cast bullet shooting is more complex and has a larger set of variables than jacketed bullet shooting, but that does not make this without a reason why cast bullets do what they do.

I shot jacketed bullets for many, many years and finally grew tired of it because it became too easy to get good results. While I have been shooting cast bullets off and on for fifty plus years, it wasn't until about 20 years ago I got serious about learning how to do it right. It is an intriguing study and lots of fun in the process.

I have grown increasingly tired of this board with its disputes and personalities clashes and try to avoid long posts like this for several reasons. I generally try and give good counsel and let it go at that, without a long explanation of why it is so. I figure folks can take the advise or reinvent the wheel if they choose.

I just want the readers to know there is more science to cast bullet shooting than unknown and unknowable results based on trial and error. Too many people have worked very hard over a long period of time to understand this stuff and I hate to see it all thrown in to the "one just doesn't know" bin for indeed there are principals that lead to good results if they are followed in a linear fashion.

[Char-Gar]

O3-A3 two groove barrels will tend to shoot somewhat better with bore-riding design bullets such as the Lyman 311334 and the RCBS SIL bullets which have a comparatively shorter bullet body and a long(er) nose. The bullet body should measure .309-.311 and the nose part should be at least .3015. Undersize dimensions will result in the bullet tending to slump in the bore. The two groove barrels have most of the bore circumference occupied by lands and these will positively guide the longer nose which rides on top of them. This design also works better in the 1917 rifles which have 5 groove rifling. Extensive testing was done on this by Harrison in his investigations on the performance of 30 cal cast bullets. An outstanding performer was the old RG-4 Saeco design that is now the Saeco 301. Some rifleman also "bumped up" noses to make them better fit the bore. LLS

I have a good old SAECO RG-4 mold and it does very well indeed. In playing with two groove barrels (Remington 03A3 and Johnson Automatics 1917) I hold the notions that the extra amount of lead displaced by lack of the extra two grooves is a serious factor to deal with in these 2 groove rifle barrels.

Bore riding designs do tend to work better in the 2 groove barrels because of the length of the nose which leaves less lead in the body to displace. For certain those long noses need to be supported by the top of the lands but that is true regardless of the number of grooves. Nose slump can occur in 2 or 4 groove barrels.

Then you have the Loverin designs which seem to work well in 2 groove barrels in spite of it's very long body. I attribute this to the fact of it's multi-groove design that gives the lead somebody place to go before it gets shoved to the base. I think a bullet with a nice base is more apt to be accurate than one that does not.

[millerwb]

Char-Gar, when I originally asked you what happens if I size to .309, your response was not helpful at all. It was do as I say or not, I don't care.

Your last two posts, #16 & 17, were VERY helpful for me. I am trying to learn about cast bullets and the different factors involved and why one thing is better than another. I appreciate the long post detailing the science behind your original post of size to .310.

Thank you for taking the time to educate me on the details involved in choosing the proper bullet size. I can count today as a good day as I learned something new.

[doctorggg]

"Thank you for taking the time to educate me on the details involved in choosing the proper bullet size. I can count today as a good day as I learned something new."

Many readers myself included learned a lot from his last 2 posts. It's invaluable to know the science behind what works and what doesn't.

[Char-Gar]

If there is a key to cast bullet accuracy with cast bullets in rifles, it is the fit of the bullet to the rifle throat. This is not to say that bullet design, alloy, powder, lubricant and charge weight are not important because they are, but if the bullet does not fit the throat all of the rest is secondary.

I don't intend to sound arrogant although I can see how my response would be so understood. I have just grown very tired of this board and some of the stuff I see and hear. I keep promising my self I will ride off into the sunset as so many of the original "planks" of this board have done, but I hate to see the hard won knowledge by so many not passed on.

Thanks you for your kind responses and beg your forgiveness for my curt manner.

[Larry Gibson]

Cast bullet shooting is not voodoo or magic. Best accuracy is given by bullets the size of the barrel throat to introduce the bullet into the rifling straight. This true until pressures get high enough to expand the bullet base before it hits the rifling. A stronger/harder alloy also is a big help in keeping retarding the premature expansion of the base at higher pressures. Bullets shot at higher pressure will most often do better smaller than throat diameter. However at the pressures we most often use throat diameter bullets will produce best accuracy.

I concur with Char-Gar. Accuracy in rifles will be best in rifles with cast bullets if the bullet is sized to fit the throat regardless of the number of grooves. As issued 2 and 4 groove milsurp barrels will have milsurp spec chambers. The throats on those are most often large for functional reliability and probable wear. Yes I have cast a number of such chambers and measured the throats. I've also shot a lot of different cast bullets through 2 and 4 groove '03s, '03A3 and several '03A4s and always found, with standard level GC'd cast bullet loads (1600 - 1950 fps with #2 alloy or similar) a sizing of .311 almost invariably produced the best consistent accuracy. That is why .311 is always my "go to" sizing for such rifles. I have not found a single instance with 2 or 4 groove '03 or '03A3 barrels where a smaller sizing improved accuracy until much higher velocities and pressures were used.

If you like to test and experiment (I do) then trying the different sizings is "fun". However, if you prefer to shoot and not invest in a bunch of different sizing dies and spend a lot of range time testing then size your cast bullets at .311 or .310 minimum if that's the sizer you have. The wheel is already invented and that's based on fact, not "diverse opinions 180 degrees apart"

Larry Gibson

[Char-Gar]

I need to confess that both of my current 03A3 rifles, a Remington 4 groove and a Smith-Corona 4 groove fell into my hand unfired. One was fresh from the arsenal and the other I installed a new barrel fresh from the wrapped and filled with cosmoline. In other words, there was no throat erosion from firing. This is the reason .310 bullets do well for me.

I have had others over the years, both 2 and 4 groove that had seen varying amounts of service. With worn throats .311 would be a bet as Larry stated.

Another of my pet 30-06 rifles ( I have about a dozen) is a 1954 Winchester 70. It will choke on anything larger than .310 at the current time. After a few more thousand rounds down range, I need to revisit that is I see the accuracy starting to degrade.

A popular method to determine throat size is the use of a throat slug. In fact LBT will make custom molds to fit your rifle based on these throat slugs. That is a good way to go for the follow who really gets bit by the cast bullet bug.

Being a mechanically retarded guy, I found a way around the use of a throat slug. It may be a little more complex, but it works for me.

I have accumulated over the years quite an array of Lyman and RCBS 30 caliber sizing dies ranging from .308 to .314 in thousands and even a few in half thousands. I see no sense in not putting them to work for me.

Let me use an 03A3 as am example, as that is the rifle on the table for discussion. I load a dummy round with a .313 bullet and seat the round in the chamber. I then inspect where the bullet engaged the throat. If it shaved lead, I try it again with a .312 bullet and continue until I find the largest bullet that fits into the throat without shaving lead. I don't mind marks on the bullet from the throat, just not moving lead around.

I do realize that not everybody has such an assortment of sizing dies, but over time, we do tend to accumulate these things.

If you read older Lyman cast loading manuals you will see they gave .311 as the standard sizing diameter for all 30 caliber cast bullets. The lyman folks did not pull this number out of the air, for it is a very good nominal bullet cast bullet diameter for most military or off the shelf commercial American 30 caliber rifles. If you are buying just one sizing die for 30 caliber rifles, that is the first one to buy.

Can .311 be too large? Yes at times it is, but most often it will be a very good number to use.

Somewhere along the line somebody wrote: "slug your barrel and size your bullets .001 over barrel groove diameter". I don't know who first came up with that notion, but it has been repeated over and over again until it has become accepted as holy writ. In fact it is not a good method to determine the best cast bullet diameter at all, because it ignores the barrel throat which is the key measurement to accurate cast bullet shooting. Accuracy does not end there, but is sure as hell starts there.

If we can get nothing else into the heads of the novice rifle cast bullet shooter, this is what we need to implant in their brains.

[Outpost75]

+1 on everything which Larry said. In my experience firing these milsurp rifles you can also get wrapped around the axle trying to shoot bullets which are too hard, and trying to drive them too fast in a barrel which is not machined to the fine interior micro-finish that modern barrels are.

K.I.S.S. principle. Stick to moderately soft alloys such as wheelweights, and modest velocities up to 1700 fps. With Lyman No.2 you can get very good results with gaschecked bullets to about 1900 fps with well lubed bullets which fit.

#311299 works well in most .30 milsurps. For a mild 100 yard load which does not require a GC a wheelweight alloy bullet shot as-cast and unsized, (IF it will chamber and extract freely without resistance in your rifle!) lubricated with Lee Liquid Alox will get you about 1300 fps. A fairly standard charge with a GC bullet is 16 grs. of #2400 for about 1550 fps. You can also get good results using 28-30 grains of almost any NON-Ball, extruded rifle powder you have lying around, RL7, 3031, 4895, 4064, RL15, Varget all work.

To cycle an M1 Garand reliably requires No.2 alloy and 35-36 grs. of 4895, 4064, RL15 or Varget. Most people add about a 1.0 grain tuft of Dacron filler over the powder, but I have not found this necessary if using Federal 210M or Winchester WLR primers in GI Lake City cases, with a tight bullet assembly (.311" bullet seated into a .309" expanded neck, using moderate Lee Factory Crimp).

[Char-Gar]

I have not had good luck with ball powders in cast bullet 30-06 loads with one notable exception and this is pretty far afield from standard practice.

When it was cheap I picked up a large supply of WC872 which is surplus slow machine gun powder for the 20mm Vulcan round. I use 55 grains of this stuff dropped through a two foot tube to settle the powder and then seat the bullet to give light compression to the powder column. The powder charge will vary a few grains depending on the length of the bullet used.

This load will yield 1,850 +- fps and give outstanding accuracy in every rifle I have tried. The downside is a copious amount of unburned powder that will need to be blown out or brushed out from time to time. In the barrel it is not much of an issue, but in the chamber it can be.

I also use powder at 50 grains charge weight under 200-220 grains cast bullets in my several Krag rifles with equally good results with the same downsides. Bullets are .313 to .314 in the Krag and smaller for my Winchester 95 and 95 Brownchester both in 30-40.

I certainly would not recommend anybody going out and buying WC872, but if you have it or find it very cheap, it does very well in the 30-06 with cast bullets with the above mentioned downsides.

[45 2.1]

K.I.S.S. principle. Stick to moderately soft alloys such as wheelweights, and modest velocities up to 1700 fps.


Well millerwb, you've had a lot of response here from several people. Do what they do and shoot what they want you to. Are you convinced that what they say is what you want?

[rondog]

This thread is VERY interesting to me, many thanks to all for sharing your knowledge and experience!!! I haven't started casting yet, but I have nearly everything except molds and sizing dies. I plan to cast bullets for my 03A3, Enfields and Mosins. What I've learned from this is that the mold I was planning on for .30-06 would be WRONG right out of the gate!

I'll definitely be studying this thread closer. My '43 03A3 is in great shape, the Enfields and Mosins not so much. I certainly want the best accuracy I can get from all of them. I need to learn how to slug barrels next, and go from there I reckon. But it's kinda looking like I could maybe use the same bullet mold and just size them differently?

[Char-Gar]

What kind of Enfield? If you are talking a SMLE 303 then Outpost75 is a go to guy for top drawer information and he has long and deep experience cast bullet in this rifle and caliber.

I have good Longbranch SMLE and have play with it some, but no so much as I think I am ready to give and reliable counsel. I have a good Mosin sitting in the corner looking at me and daring me to shoot it with cast bullets. I have not taken up the challenge yet, but some day, some day.

[Pb2au]

Yes, thanks to the contributors to this thread. It is yet another good lesson to study. I have a Springfield on the radar and this has been a ray light on that potential project.
Thank you very much.

[rondog]

What kind of Enfield? If you are talking a SMLE 303 then Outpost75 is a go to guy for top drawer information and he has long and deep experience cast bullet in this rifle and caliber.

I have good Longbranch SMLE and have play with it some, but no so much as I think I am ready to give and reliable counsel. I have a good Mosin sitting in the corner looking at me and daring me to shoot it with cast bullets. I have not taken up the challenge yet, but some day, some day.

The rifles I'd like to shoot cast bullets in are -
1943 Remington M1903A3
1943 Springfield M1 Garand (some cast, not a lot)
1980 Remington 700 (some cast, not a lot)

Enfields are -
1917 BSA No.1 Mk.III SMLE (restoration project)
1952 RFI No.1 Mk.III SMLE
1942 Longbranch No.4 Mk.I 2-groove
1948 Fazakerly No.4 Mk.I
1947 Fazakerly No.5 Mk.I

Mosins are -
1938 Tula 91/30
1943 Izhevsk M38

Also have a pair of Swiss K31's that might see some cast bullets, if I ever get some reloadable brass for them.

So, there they are. Should I plan on getting two or more molds for these? Any suggestions from anyone will be greatly appreciated! This casting thing is all still a mystery to me.

I should mention that I don't compete, I just like to shoot by myself at paper targets at 100 yards. If I get good, might move it out to 200+, my club has ranges out to 600. But my eyes laugh at the thought!

[Char-Gar]

BruceB, another one of our long time and very knowledgeable people here, has also done allot of work with 303 rifles like yours. A shout out to him would prove very productive for you.