Best hardness for 45-70 boolits in original Trapdoor??

[DevilDog83]

Hey guys, finally was able to replace my Trapdoor that I had to sell a few years back to pay the mortgage (I know, it was stupid to pay the mortgage). My regular alloy for my boolits is around 14.5-15 BH and use them in mostly revolvers and some semi autos, also some low velocity 30-06 and 30-30 loads. I also have some commercial alloy that is around 18 BH. My plan is to get the Lyman 500 gr round nose mold and load these pretty mild. What do you all think is the best hardness for this application?? I appreciate any help. One thing I love about this forum is that most everyone knows what they are talking about, or they don't say anything, not like the mall ninja tactical whactical crowd on most forums!!

[13Echo]

Cast large, about 0.460", and soft, 30:1 lead :tin alloy. BHN about 8 or, preferably less. I found the Lyman mould to cast too small for reliable shooting in my 1884 and had to use the Lee 405 HB copy of the 1873 bullet and the SAECO 881 500 gr bullet copy of the 1881 Frankford arsenal bullet. Both of these cast at or slightly over 0.460"

Jerry Liles

[Scharfschuetze]

Cast large, about 0.460", and soft, 30:1 lead :tin alloy. BHN about 8 or, preferably less. I found the Lyman mould to cast too small for reliable shooting in my 1884 and had to use the Lee 405 HB copy of the 1873 bullet and the SAECO 881 500 gr bullet copy of the 1881 Frankford arsenal bullet. Both of these cast at or slightly over 0.460"

Jerry Liles

+1 on Jerry's advice.

I might add that as the Trapdoor is not the strongest of actions and they are all antiques now, you'll not need to worry about boolits being too hard as your velocity goal should not be all that high. I load to 1300 fps out of my original rifles which generally allows me to use the range scales on the sights at the various ranges. As an aside, if using smokeless powder, you'll need a higher front sight than the original sight on them to sight one in properly.

[John Allen]

As Jerry said soft and large. Also do not forget a wad and lube cookie.

[Don McDowell]

The original bullet was 16-1, that or anything softer should work just fine.

[John Allen]

I run pretty close to pure lead in mine. It gives a little better accuracy with the light rifling.

[DevilDog83]

Thanks alot guys, you saved me hours of trail and error. Appreciate all the advice, think I'll stick with my indoor range lead at about 9BH and go with the molds suggested. My plan is mild loads, just want an accurate fun load, nothing for any competition, just for FUN and enjoying some History with the fine old rifle. Once I get some stuff worked out, I'll share my data with others here on the forum.

[country gent]

Il add in here Ive been running 20-1 for my grease grooves and paper patched bullets in 45 caliber with very good results. I load Black powder and these bullets with a .060 napa gasket wad over powder a grease cookie 3/16" and a thin card wad to protect the bullets base. Lightly compress the powder and leave no air space in the case.

[303carbine]

I have been shooting my 45-70 H&R 1873 Cavalry model with #2 alloy, which is around 15 Brinell or less, it shoots very accurately with zero leading.
I am pushing them close to the original velocity of around 1300 or just under.
The mould is the RCBS 405, the bullets drop out to 420 with the gas check and all the lube.
I use 30 grains of IMR 4198, it all burns and leaves zero leading in the barrel, all I do is push a dry patch through and the bore and it shines.

[DevilDog83]

Can't wait to strat shooting the Trapdoor!!! Thanks again for the info guys!! Might have to make a "new division" for our ZSA matches now!!

[missionary5155]

Greetings
More important to me with a Trapdoor is discover the throat diameter.
My "1884" (a 1879 with a Buff sight). Has a throat of .463+. To get it to shoot BP I had to get a NEI mold (30 years ago) that drops at .462 . I use 40-1 as my BP mix. It shoots as well as any mix in my TD.
I also use 3F. Burns cleaner and it picks up near 85 FPS.
Be sure to get a mold with deep and numerous grease grooves. That long barrel will like it. Otherwise you get to play with grease cookies or nose dip.
For Smokeless.. You absolutely want to know that throat. With my NEI mold it will drop 50-50 at .464+ which shoots almost as well as BP. I am pretty sure that is the 400 RN mold. This is my 84's fattest alowable boolit. No I care not to have to turn case necks for a TD.
Would I get another NEI mold made rescently ? I think today I would travel to Accurate Molds.
Mike in Peru

[Wayne Smith]

Original loads in the Sharps was 16-1. Original Remington loads were 20-1. If you don't want to buy tin you can come close to this with 50/50 ww/Pb or 25/75 of the same. I have no idea what the original military loads were.

[DevilDog83]

Thanks guys, UPS tracking says the "new" Trapdoor will be in my eager hands tomorrow!!!!

[45-70 Chevroner]

I can't be sure of this but I believe that in the 1850's they used pure lead. The BCPR shooters of today shoot mostly 1-20 alloy. For my own shooting in the 45-70 I cast 20# of WW to an ounce or two of pure tin, the tin just helps the mold fill out better. My favorite load is my cast air cooled 500 gr. Lee with 11grs of Unique, it is a very soft load at about 1100 fps. and it will shoot into 3" at a 100 yards. I don't use a filler, I do orient the powder by lifting the barrel up before each shot. Good luck and have fun with your new 45-70

[Don McDowell]

Page 50 of the 1878 Winchester catalog lists th US Govt 45 as adapted to new model United States, Springfield and Hotchkiss rifles, loaded with 70 grs of powder and a 405 gr bullet compossed of 1 part tin and 16 parts lead. priced at 35$ per 1000.
The original Ideal catalog lists the alloy of the 45 us as 16-1 for the 405 gr bullet.

[John Boy]

http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/shooterstext.html ... scroll to the end for loading data.
I use 1:16

[oldfart1956]

John while you're waiting for delivery of the trapdoor try going to page 10 (currently) and read Larry Gibsons excellent writings on his loads and techniques. Appropriatley titled My Trapdoor Loads, Techniques and Equipment. I badgered him mercilessly for some time and thought enough of his writing to print it up and keep it in my reloading data binder. I'd love to see it as a sticky if we could encourage the Moderators as such. This particular work is only concerning smokeless loads and is a treasure-trove of information. My loads went from 6 inches and tumbling at 25yds. to 5 shot groups at 100yds. (limit of my eyesight) of 1 1/2 inches with 3 out of 5 touching. At present my particular load is 12.5gr. of Unique, no wads no fillers, under a modified Lee 330gr. mold lapped out to .462+ and Felix lube. I did deviate on his recommendation of softer lead and went with straight wheel-weights or Lyman #2 as I have it in abundance and had problems with leading with softer lead. I get minor leading at the throat...and Larry explains why in his writings. Well wporth your time to read it...Larry knows stuff and explains it well. Audie...the Oldfart..

[45-70 Chevroner]

In Mike Venterinos book on Buffalo rifles, he mentioned that he has never found ony reference of any shooters back in the 1800's of there being any use of tin or the use of an alloy for thier shooting.

[Don McDowell]

Don't know why MLV would of said something like that. The Sharps and Remington catalogs specifically mention using hard alloy for target shooting, the Winchester catalog list the alloy of each and every cartridge they loaded , and the US government manual on the Springfield rifle list the alloy and the lube recipe.

[1Shirt]

Big & soft will get ya there!
1Shirt!

[nanuk]

Big and Soft....

MMMM....

[country gent]

I have been using 20-1 virgin alloy for awhile now with very good results in 45-70 and 45-90 both paper patched and grease grooves. Recovered 3 of the 500 grn PP last spring from a wet sand back stop. Bullets were mushroomed to just over an 1" in dia at widest points and only 3/8" thick ( started around 1 3/8" long. Bullet was curled around shank very nicely and retained wieght of 480 grns. I use emmerts improved lube or SPG and get little to no leading over 2f black powder. Tested 40-1 with PP and havent recovered any yet but seem to shoot as good or slightly better. I started with Buffalo arms swaged 500 grns PP bullets with good results but never recovered any of them.

[DevilDog83]

John while you're waiting for delivery of the trapdoor try going to page 10 (currently) and read Larry Gibsons excellent writings on his loads and techniques. Appropriatley titled My Trapdoor Loads, Techniques and Equipment. I badgered him mercilessly for some time and thought enough of his writing to print it up and keep it in my reloading data binder. I'd love to see it as a sticky if we could encourage the Moderators as such. This particular work is only concerning smokeless loads and is a treasure-trove of information. My loads went from 6 inches and tumbling at 25yds. to 5 shot groups at 100yds. (limit of my eyesight) of 1 1/2 inches with 3 out of 5 touching. At present my particular load is 12.5gr. of Unique, no wads no fillers, under a modified Lee 330gr. mold lapped out to .462+ and Felix lube. I did deviate on his recommendation of softer lead and went with straight wheel-weights or Lyman #2 as I have it in abundance and had problems with leading with softer lead. I get minor leading at the throat...and Larry explains why in his writings. Well wporth your time to read it...Larry knows stuff and explains it well. Audie...the Oldfart..

Thanks very much!!

[Larry Gibson]

Credit for my success goes to Spence Wolf, may he rest in peace.

Larry Gibson