Was Jesus Redeemed?

[LAH]

Luke 2:39 And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth.

We find Joseph & Mary performed all things according to the law of the Lord.

Vs 22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord; 23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;) 24 And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

There is much debate as to the offering of the birds for “her” purification that it also was for “His”. I've studied this in various commentaries. I've also studied the redeeming of the first born with silver coins still practiced by the Jewish community today.

So my question: Was Jesus redeemed either by sacrifice or offering, when or before His presentation to the Lord at the temple? Thanks guys..........Lynn

[jmort]

He was Baptized as well, but he knew no sin, and heaven opened-up and God said he was well pleased with his Son. He was never "redeemed" as he was/is the Redeemer. So my answer is no, he was never "Redeemed" as he never needed to be redeemed as he knew no sin. He fulfilled the Law and was not subject to it.

[DeanWinchester]

I'm confused. What need for redemption or purification would be needed for him? Jesus may have came to live as one of us but was still conceived by the seed of GOD and not some flawed man.
Interesting point of view though. I suppose he would choose to if he were wanting fill as many human aspects as he could.

[LAH]

Guys I'm not saying He needed to be redeemed or purified. I'm simply asking by keeping the Law perfectly & in all its points was there a price paid by His parents for Him? I can't find it anywhere in my study Bible. I'm preparing background for a sermon.

[Bzcraig]

I think indirectly they are answering your question. Though you may not find a direct answer to your question in the text, the answer is found in what has been mentioned. The assumption has to be that as fully God and being the redeemer there is no need for him to be redeemed but just like he didn't need to be baptized, he was anyway not because he needed to be but because the prophesies about him needed to be fulfilled. Also since He was sinless and even as you said, fulfilled the law perfectly, just because text doesn't give you the answer you are looking for you must make a conclusion on what else you find. Unless your message is specifically about redemption, is it necessary to develope this point? As I read through the text, especially in other versions, it seems clear to me that they did everything right and the text makes no exceptions. I have never encountered those who make much debate over the purification which personally I think is inconsequential and if it were me delivering this point it would be that those who debate it are wasting their time on a point that has no significance in eternity, to the strengthing the brethren, encouraging or any other thing that would be pleasing to God and if fact may do just the opposite especially to a new believer whose faith may be submarined thinking Jesus can't be God if He or His parents didn't do everything perfectly according to Gods purpose and not mans traditions.

[Hickory]

Jesus IS the Redeemer.
He does the redeeming.

[whelenshooter]

No price paid here in Luke by Mary and Joseph for Jesus. They're simply keeping the Law (for themselves, Mary actually) according to God's command in Leviticus 12.

Jesus of course pays a price, not for Himself but us, through His humiliation of taking on human flesh and standing in our place for 33 years and ultimately on the cross. His mother and Joseph do here what all parents did with the first born. Jesus came to fulfill the Law but He does so on our behalf not for His own sake. Even His baptism, which was mentioned by others, is done for us. Not so much for an example, though He is that, but rather because He bears our sin and will carry them all the way to the cross for us crucifying them there in His own body. So in that sense He is baptized as a sinner, the greatest of all time, but it's our sin He carries not His (as he has none of course). It is the vicarious atonement.


Guys I'm not saying He needed to be redeemed or purified. I'm simply asking by keeping the Law perfectly & in all its points was there a price paid by His parents for Him? I can't find it anywhere in my study Bible. I'm preparing background for a sermon.

[Char-Gar]

Some of the best advise I ever received from a very wise and mature Christian man was; "My younger brother, never forget that theology is not God. Theology is just man talking about God."

[LAH]

Again I agree. He is the Redeemer of Israel & all mankind for that matter & IMHO all who will come. Believe me I'm not looking to make some point about my Saviour with this. He is The Perfect Lamb of God, no strings attached. I don't & won't take away nor add to Him.

Digging a little more I found Leviticus 12 & the birds were in fact offered for a woman for her purification.

Luke 2:27 speaking of Simeon:
"And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law."................Jesus was brought to the temple to be presented after the custom of the law. I found this in Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible "To do for him after the custom of the law; as was used to be done in such a case, according to the appointment of the law: or as the Syriac version renders it, "as is commanded in the law"; namely, to present him to the Lord, and to pay the redemption money for him."

Please commit on this if you would. And again I know He didn't need to be redeemed & Gill's statement is commentary but if He was redeemed it would be to fulfill the Law, not to redeem HIM.

[LAH]

His mother and Joseph do here what all parents did with the first born. Jesus came to fulfill the Law but He does so on our behalf not for His own sake. Even His baptism, which was mentioned by others, is done for us.

Very well said.

[whelenshooter]

Again I agree. He is the Redeemer of Israel & all mankind for that matter & IMHO all who will come. Believe me I'm not looking to make some point about my Saviour with this. He is The Perfect Lamb of God, no strings attached. I don't & won't take away nor add to Him.

Digging a little more I found Leviticus 12 & the birds were in fact offered for a woman for her purification.

Luke 2:27 speaking of Simeon:
"And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law."................Jesus was brought to the temple to be presented after the custom of the law. I found this in Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible "To do for him after the custom of the law; as was used to be done in such a case, according to the appointment of the law: or as the Syriac version renders it, "as is commanded in the law"; namely, to present him to the Lord, and to pay the redemption money for him."

Please commit on this if you would. And again I know He didn't need to be redeemed & Gill's statement is commentary but if He was redeemed it would be to fulfill the Law, not to redeem HIM.

Yes to your last statement. It's interesting if you look at Exodus 13:13ff the whole idea of redemption of the first born is to be a reminder to Israel that God by His strong hand brought them out of Egypt. He redeemed them from slavery. This was accomplished by the Passover in which the blood of the lamb marked the Israelites as a protection from the Destroyer in the last plague. Fast forward to Jesus and you have in Him "The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world". His Last Supper is none other than a remembrance of that first Passover and a pointing forward to the next day when He would redeem the world by shedding His own blood as the Lamb of God. Christ redeems us from sin, our sin, a real slavery. So then really the redemption in Exodus and all the redemptions of the first born to the birth of Jesus point to His coming sacrifice to redeem the world (the Passover points forward to Jesus). Again Jesus fulfills the Law as His parents do what is required but again it is a fulfillment for us and a pointing forward to our real redemption in Him.
David

[DeanWinchester]

Some of the best advise I ever received from a very wise and mature Christian man was; "My younger brother, never forget that theology is not God. Theology is just man talking about God."

Amen to that! I never felt like The Lord was a very religious fella himself. He makes a path, you follow it. Over analyzing doctrine emphasizes the outside. Jesus is "work on the inside" kinda guy.
I've had church folk criticize this as blasphemy but I believe a man that TRULY had the love of Jesus Christ filling his heart could get by without his bible. The Bible is a wonderful thing that can carry you through the worst of times but we have a heart and God designed it to work in a very unique way. The filth of man has seared the collective conscience of the world. Now good is evil and evil is good. Sin is rewarded while righteousness is punished. Sign of the times I suppose.

[Ickisrulz]

He was Baptized as well, but he knew no sin, and heaven opened-up and God said he was well pleased with his Son. He was never "redeemed" as he was/is the Redeemer. So my answer is no, he was never "Redeemed" as he never needed to be redeemed as he knew no sin. He fulfilled the Law and was not subject to it.

I agree. He was "the sinless" in the place of "the sinner" at his baptism and death.

Mary and Joseph we just following the law.

[whelenshooter]

Amen to that! I never felt like The Lord was a very religious fella himself. He makes a path, you follow it. Over analyzing doctrine emphasizes the outside. Jesus is "work on the inside" kinda guy.
I've had church folk criticize this as blasphemy but I believe a man that TRULY had the love of Jesus Christ filling his heart could get by without his bible. The Bible is a wonderful thing that can carry you through the worst of times but we have a heart and God designed it to work in a very unique way. The filth of man has seared the collective conscience of the world. Now good is evil and evil is good. Sin is rewarded while righteousness is punished. Sign of the times I suppose.
Man I know what you mean. Lots of religious people following false rules and ideas about who God/Christ is. It's interesting that God goes to the trouble to define for Israel how their religion/theology/doctrine will be (Leviticus as an example), that Israel as a whole gathered at the tabernacle/temple regularly, that Jesus attended temple and synagogue, that the early church in Acts gathered together devoted to prayers, Scripture and breaking of bread, and that the writer of Hebrews exhorts Christians to continue to gather together for service. On second thought there might be some outward component and religiosity to this whole believing in Christ thing. ;)

[Char-Gar]

Faith (as term is rightly understood) in Jesus as the Christ is not a believe system. It is a relationship. Human beings, being what we are, ask questions about that relationship, for we just can't seem to help ourselves. Theology is a human attempt to answer those question. Nothing wrong with that, but for all to many, the theology replaces Jesus, as the center of their faith. Now we have salvation by theology and not by Christ. What that happens we slipped into idolatry, with our belief system being the idol we worship.

[LAH]

Let me add this if you would be so kind. The redeeming of the firstborn wasn't like the redemption which takes place for salvation. We as sinners are purchased from the wages of sin which is death & given eternal life. Christ was sinless & therefore needed no redemption for sin.

I think those who opened the womb were declared by God to be His. In the case of a donkey a clean animal was offered as the price of its redemption. If you didn't want to redeem the donkey its neck was broken. There are other examples concerning animals also.

In the case of a child, the price of redemption was paid to purchase that child from God. In doing so I think they are acknowledging a fact of the Law that all first born belong to Him. Correct me if I'm wrong as I'm no theologian.

[whelenshooter]

Let me add this if you would be so kind. The redeeming of the firstborn wasn't like the redemption which takes place for salvation. We as sinners are purchased from the wages of sin which is death & given eternal life. Christ was sinless & therefore needed no redemption for sin.

I think those who opened the womb were declared by God to be His. In the case of a donkey a clean animal was offered as the price of its redemption. If you didn't want to redeem the donkey its neck was broken. There are other examples concerning animals also.

In the case of a child, the price of redemption was paid to purchase that child from God. In doing so I think they are acknowledging a fact of the Law that all first born belong to Him. Correct me if I'm wrong as I'm no theologian.

Yes the redemption is different from sin versus what God commands in Exodus but He plainly says that He is using the child's redemption to remind Israel of their redemption from Egypt and so it serves as a 'type' or picture of the redemption we have in Christ. John in His Gospel says Jesus is "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" and that is a reference back to the Passover or if you will the redemption from Egypt. Here is part of the passage I referenced from Exodus 13 earlier starting with verse 13: "Every firstborn of a donkey you shall redeem with a lamb, or if you will not redeem it you shall break its neck. Every firstborn of man among your sons you shall redeem. And when in time to come your son asks you, ‘What does this mean?’ you shall say to him, ‘By a strong hand the LORD brought us out of Egypt, from the house of slavery. For when Pharaoh stubbornly refused to let us go, the LORD killed all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both the firstborn of man and the firstborn of animals. Therefore I sacrifice to the LORD all the males that first open the womb, but all the firstborn of my sons I redeem.’ It shall be as a mark on your hand or frontlets between your eyes, for by a strong hand the LORD brought us out of Egypt.”

[whelenshooter]

Faith (as term is rightly understood) in Jesus as the Christ is not a believe system. It is a relationship. Human beings, being what we are, ask questions about that relationship, for we just can't seem to help ourselves. Theology is a human attempt to answer those question. Nothing wrong with that, but for all to many, the theology replaces Jesus, as the center of their faith. Now we have salvation by theology and not by Christ. What that happens we slipped into idolatry, with our belief system being the idol we worship.

It maybe a relationship but it is a very one sided one. Scripture, and specifically Romans 3, makes the case that according to our sinful nature we do not want God, at least not the true God. "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless..." 1 Corinthians 2 records "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."
So we find that we don't want God naturally. But He wants us so He comes to us. How? In His Word which the Gospel of John says is Jesus Christ (John 1:1 and following) and which God says creates faith in us by hearing it (Romans 10:17). And even Jesus Himself demands us to confess who He is (Matthew 16:15, 16) and to make this confession before men (Matthew 10:32, 33).

All that being said how then do we know what to confess? Do we gin it up in ourselves or does God give us a very specific revelation of Himself? It's the latter. The Word of God, Scripture, reveals who God is and what our confession of Him is to be. We are not free in the matter. Scripture isn't relative. It either is the Word of God in all its parts and so we are bound by it or it's a lie and doesn't matter at all.

I'll choose the former this time. :)

David

[wv109323]

Paul said that to break one part of the Law you have broken it all. Jesus and his parents had to obey and practice all the Law for Him to remain sinless under the Law.
Exodus 30 requires that half a shekel be paid per child (under 20 y.o.) for their atonement. The money was for the tabernacle.
Jesus being God did not have to pray, observe Jewish holidays, go to the temple, be tempted and etc.
Jesus being a Jewish man done all these as an example for us and to comply with and fulfill the Law.

[Bzcraig]

Amen to that! I never felt like The Lord was a very religious fella himself. He makes a path, you follow it. Over analyzing doctrine emphasizes the outside. Jesus is "work on the inside" kinda guy.
I've had church folk criticize this as blasphemy but I believe a man that TRULY had the love of Jesus Christ filling his heart could get by without his bible. The Bible is a wonderful thing that can carry you through the worst of times but we have a heart and God designed it to work in a very unique way. The filth of man has seared the collective conscience of the world. Now good is evil and evil is good. Sin is rewarded while righteousness is punished. Sign of the times I suppose.

Your right brother and this is borne out in those countries where Christianity is a part of culture but no bible is yet available in the language. I once heard a story of a believer in a communist country who only had one torn out page from a bible which he translated into his language and preached to an underground church for 14 years from that one page. Evidence of God speaking to the heart of man!

[MT Gianni]

I'll ask when I get there and not be too concerned until then. We can spend far too much time in minutiae, IMO.

[LAH]

This has been very interesting. I thank all who have participated. My thinking was this: At the time Christ was a very young child. Joseph & Mary were devout people who would have made every effort to keep the Law as witnessed by her bringing the birds for "her" sin offering & burnt sacrifice. So therefore they would have paid the price of redemption for her firstborn. Not saying I'm correct, that's just my line of thought & again thanks to all for yours.

[whelenshooter]

This isn't aimed at anyone. It's in response to what was written here and what is heard regularly everywhere. It's this idea of getting deep into the text of Scripture and theology, learning more about Christ as God revealed Him to us, as being a fool's errand and of little value. Yet as a shooter, hunter, bullet caster, aspiring home machinist and motorcycle rider I spend all kinds of time in the minutiae of those things. Those things will not make it with me past my death but by the grace of God the other will. What then is really important?

[wv109323]

Let me add another verse that may help. It is Exodus 13:15. It says to the effect that the first male animal was to be sacrificed and the first male child was the Lord's to redeem.

[aspangler]

Luke 2:39 And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth.

We find Joseph & Mary performed all things according to the law of the Lord.

Vs 22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord; 23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;) 24 And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

There is much debate as to the offering of the birds for “her” purification that it also was for “His”. I've studied this in various commentaries. I've also studied the redeeming of the first born with silver coins still practiced by the Jewish community today.

So my question: Was Jesus redeemed either by sacrifice or offering, when or before His presentation to the Lord at the temple? Thanks guys..........Lynn
He was not redeemed, He IS the Redeemer.

[LAH]

He was not redeemed, He IS the Redeemer.

Are we saying that Mary & Joseph didn't pay the price at the temple which was required for the first born? I agree He was & is Redeemer.

[DLCTEX]

They did pay the redemption price. To not do so would have been against God's law. He came to fulfill the law, not destroy it. This had more to do with the parent's obedience than redemption for the child. Children are a gift from God and we acknowledge that by redeeming the first fruit from the womb. All first fruits belong to the Lord.

[LAH]

They did pay the redemption price. To not do so would have been against God's law. He came to fulfill the law, not destroy it. This had more to do with the parent's obedience than redemption for the child. Children are a gift from God and we acknowledge that by redeeming the first fruit from the womb. All first fruits belong to the Lord.

After much study & soul searching I'm on the same page.

[DRNurse1]

So how did the sermon turn out? People preaching to folks about God has got to have and interesting ending....right?

[LAH]

The sermon went fine & in fact had nothing to do with the above subject as this only come about in my studies. The sermon was from Psalm 31: 1-8 which says:

1 In thee, O Lord, do I put my trust; let me never be ashamed: deliver me in thy righteousness.
2 Bow down thine ear to me; deliver me speedily: be thou my strong rock, for an house of defence to save me.
3 For thou art my rock and my fortress; therefore for thy name's sake lead me, and guide me.
4 Pull me out of the net that they have laid privily for me: for thou art my strength.
5 Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O Lord God of truth.
6 I have hated them that regard lying vanities: but I trust in the Lord.
7 I will be glad and rejoice in thy mercy: for thou hast considered my trouble; thou hast known my soul in adversities;
8 And hast not shut me up into the hand of the enemy: thou hast set my feet in a large room.

My sermon log shows I preached this at Cool Ridge FWB, 10-20-13 at the 11AM service which was Pastor's Day. The sermon was titled "The Books". Without going back through my notes I can't give details.

I used the same text that evening at 6PM preaching for the Terry Independent Christian Church. My log shows no title for that sermon. My attendance record notes only states: "I sang 2, had altar prayer & prayer for a young girl who wasn’t there, prayed for many who came forward."

[sniper]

Jesus' earthly parents were observant Jews. They would offer the redemption price, as that was part of Jewish law. That was an earthly ordinance, and is totally separate from being Redeemed, as I understand the term. You can't see redemption, only its results. He was baptized as an example of obedience to us, "...to fulfill all righteousness..." iirc, showing us the way.
Jesus was raised in an orthodox Jewish household of the time, doubtless attended Jewish schools, (And, as he did, was reading the hundreds of years of prophecies about himself!) as his experiences later in life, in the temple, reasoning with the best minds of the time, and his knowledge of scriptural writings show. He probably had a Bar Mitzvah, or whatever it may have been called then.

BUT, and this is a big one; His Father would not leave Him alone in the world, to wake up one day, and say: "Hey, I am the Redeemer...what's that?"

The scriptures tell us that He grew, and increased in favor with God and man. My belief is that in addition to earthly schools, He was tutored by teachers from His Father, (Angels?) starting from his earliest years, a bit at a time, until finally the entire glorious plan of who He was and what He had come to do, was clearly understood and accepted.