.300 Savage and Lee 309-170-F [Archive]

Springfield0612

10-16-2013, 03:22 PM

I've scoured the deep dark corners of the forums and cannot find any data or reccomendations for the .300 S using the Lee 309-170-F. I bought the mold earlier this year based off of a reccomendation that I can't remeber and have just recently reloaded my first 40 cast with this mold. I wasn't able to get my scope sighted in on my 99E with these still working on load data. But all the rounds fired and I didn't die.
I'm using Lee reloading data based off of a reccomendation from one of the techs from Accurate powders as I am using Accurate 2700. He reccomended that I start with the 165 grain Jacketed load data as they didn't have anything on file for 170 grain lead cast bullets. No reccomendation from him on COL.

Boolits:
Lee 309-170-F using water quenched alloy (5#pure to 8oz pewter ~12bhn when air cooled)
Sized to .309 Using Lee .309 sizer and seating gas checks.
2 coats of 45-45-10

Starting:
165 grain jacketed bullet data
Accur 2700 40.4 gr @ 2.58" est. 2258 fps

Worked up to 43 grains by 1 grain incriments.
Lee lists 43.5 grains as max at ~ 2414 fps.

All rounds went bang, no signs of over pressure, no leading.
Once I seated the boolits at 2.58" I calculated that the base of the boolit is seated 1/4" passed the case mouth leaving the upper bands and grooves exposed. Is this deep enough or no? When I tested the chambering for this round it had no isues and I could just barely see marks in the lube on the boolit where it made contact with the rifling once it was fully chambered.

Light crimp used with the seating crimping die then followed up with the factory crimp die. I have a Lyman M die for the .300 sav on order as it was tough to get the GC centered and seated without shaving a little lead.

This is my first experiance with reloading for rifle and cast boolits at that after over 6 years of handgun reloading and most of it with cast. Just looking for some thoughts and ideas if I'm on the right path.

DeanWinchester

10-16-2013, 03:25 PM

You are on the right track but certainly need that Mdie.

The 300 savage has such a short neck, you may consider trying Lees 312-155-2r and sizing it back to your needs. It has a very short lube groove/gas check area and is very well suited to a short neck. It was awesome in 300 blackout wich suffers the same issues with neck length.

Springfield0612

10-17-2013, 12:12 PM

DW,
Thanks for that. I checked a couple sites and they seem to have the mold in stock. would you have any load data for that mold for the .300? Specifically COL? I've got load data for Accur 2700 for 150 gr jacketed that I would use. Maybe a couple I could try to shoot?

DeanWinchester

10-17-2013, 12:30 PM

No but I would whip me up a dummy; Seat the boolit with the base even with the bottom of the neck where no boolit gets into the shoulder. Look and see where the case mouth is. If its not over a lube groove, I use a Lee factory crimp die to close the bell on the mouth BUT NOT CRIMP. Slide that puppy int he rifle and see if she fits. If it does, Run a few and see how they shoot. YOu can adjust from there if you feel you need to.

For this particular boolit in .308 winchester, I seat it to just barely cover the single lube groove. That leaves no protruding boolit into the case and gives me the longest OAL I can get while protecting the lube groove. Loaded over 30.0g of AA2015 it is one of my all time favorite loads.

I AM NOT SAYING YOU SHOULD TRY THIS! But, 30.0g should be a safe load in .300 savage as well. Starting charge for a 165g Jacketed bullet is like 33g or so. With the slightly less capacity of the .300, it would be pretty zippy for sure. Sorry I cant help you with 2700, I have never used it. If you have or would like to try AA2015, I would back off that just a bit. Scott Zeibart over at Accurate Arms is an incredibly nice guy and will happily give load data advice on anything they make. He has steered me more than a dozen times. He's also the reason I am now a AA2015 addict. I currently use it to load .308 win, .35 remington, 30/30, & 450 Marlin. All with outstanding results.

DeanWinchester

10-17-2013, 12:32 PM

Maybe a couple I could try to shoot?

If youre still interested when i get to feeling better, I can send you some to try. I'm down with a chest cold and strep. Not a happy camper. lol

gnoahhh

10-17-2013, 02:26 PM

No reason to crimp those shells. Neck tension alone should suffice when using them in a Savage 99. Accuracy may (or may not) improve, too.

BorderBrewer

10-17-2013, 02:52 PM

I have had excellent results with the NOE 311-155-FN. It has a short lube groove / gas check portion that suits it well for the 300 sav short neck. I use the lyman 31R M die plug and crimp it with the LEE Factory crimp die just enough to iron out the bell in the cartridge mouth. I charge it with IMR 3031 and it is very accurate in my rifle.

DeanWinchester

10-17-2013, 03:20 PM

No reason to crimp those shells. Neck tension alone should suffice when using them in a Savage 99. Accuracy may (or may not) improve, too.

Right, but you have to close the bell if you flare the case. That's whst makes the Lee collet crimping die so good, you can adjust it easily to close the flare without actually crimping into the boolit.

358 Win

10-17-2013, 05:01 PM

I use the old Lyman 31141 mold producing a bullet of 178 grains with GC and lube applied. I've used that bullet in my Savage 99EG sized .309" with great success. When I started to load cast boolits in my .300 Savage 99EG I first went for accuracy to see if my barrel liked lead bullets or not. My load was 16.0 grains of Alliant 2400 (mine back then was Hercules 2400) and accuracy was great even though I worried about the lead bullet protruding below the neck into the powder space. No fillers were used and velocity was 1640fps. Once accuracy is determined with the 16.0 grain load of 2400, that's when I work up loads with certain other powders to garner higher velocity. A lot of guys and gals give up on cast boolits too quickly because they try for the highest velocity first instead of developing an accurate load first. The standard 16.0 grain load of Alliant 2400 produced 1744fps in my .32 Winchester Special and now with my 182 grain cast bullet I'm launching it at 2300fps using Leverevolution powder and the accuracy is fully equal to my target load at 1744fps.
358 Win

sthwestvictoria

10-18-2013, 06:23 AM

I don't have a .300 savage but I will say I think the Lee 170 is a great cast bullet in the 30-30 and I would echo the above advice - do get a die to flare the case mouth slightly. Ideally an M die however the Lee Universal Expander die has worked well for me. Do then set the seating die to remove this slight flare or the crimp die to straighten the flare but not crimp. Particularly for the rotary magazine of the Savage there is no real reason to crimp.

Don't be a afraid to see some rifling engraving on chambering with cast. This is quite different to jacketed bullets and seems to not raise pressure significantly as it can with jacketed rifle rounds. Longer has always seemed better in my cast rounds but I have limited cast experience so keep asking and looking.

Great work getting going with the rifle casting - it will work although it certainly requires a bit more fiddling than jacketed. As a forum member here Mt44's tagline says "If it was easy anyone could do it"

Springfield0612

10-18-2013, 10:38 AM

Thanks everyone for the information. I do have the Lyman M die coming. It should be here today or tomorrow. I'm also waiting on my gas checks to come in from a member on here before I can try anymore of the 170's.
I think I will get the 312-155 profile as soon as I sell my .45 ACP LPP brass (I've got a buyer lined up here local).
The reason that I went with 2700 powder is because over the last 6 months all my local stores have not had any powder in stock that will work well with the .300 Savage. I was finally able to find some Red Dot last week for my pistols as I just recently finished off a 4 LB keg of Hodgdon Universal.
I'm not looking at trying to push the envelope or shoot crazy high velocities. I'm not one of those guys. Just want to find a good accurate and reliable round that I can reload over and over again. I got my .300 Savage from my father, who got it from his father and now my son or daughter will get it from me. The improvement will be when I pass it down it will come with dies, press, molds and everything else needed to keep the legacy of this historic rifle alive and well.
Any more reccomendations of info I am greatful for it so keep it coming.

Springfield0612

11-20-2013, 02:56 PM

So I went back and found that I had some very good articles from another member on here about reloading for the .300 Sav. It recommended IMR 3031 as one of the best powders for .300 savage as BorderBrewer confirmed above and after some powder hunting here local I was able to find a couple pounds. I also purchased the Lee 312-155 2R as was reccomended by DeanWinchester.

I worked up loads from 27grn-32grn in 1 grain increments 5 rounds per ladder step. Using the Lee 312-155 2R. I seated them deep enough to fit the rotary magazine, and all chambered easily with no issue, which is just short of the crimp groove. I loaded a last batch of 10 at 34grn just to see what near max would do as well.

Scope: Nikon 3-9X40mm
Alloy: 5# pure to .5# pewter air cooled and aged 2 weeks ~12BHN
Sized: .309 with gas check crimped and super glued
Lube: JPW 4 oz, Vasaline 4oz, paraffin 4 oz, Lars Xlox 2oz. Cookie cutter pan lube.
Brass: All brass used for the work ups was the same HS for each ladder step.
Powder: IMR 3031
Reloading: I’m using a Lee turret press.
Station 1: FL resize & deprime ( I have a Hornady .30 Short neck sizing die coming in from Midsouth Shooters on Thursday)
Station 2: Lyman M die (seat the primer on the down stroke) case mouth and neck were opened up just enough to set the gas check fully into the neck with no resistance.
Station 3: Lee Universal powder die manually dumping from the Lee universal powder dispenser (Lee Universal rifle charging die coming in from MSS on Thursday to use with the Lee Auto disk)
Station 4: Lee Seat and crimp die

Notes: Started with a clean bore. At 28 grains the powder burn marks on the cases disappeared and all brass from that point came out of the gun clean. My wife was spotting for me with a spotting scope and did an excellent job recording POI on a sheet of paper for me for group assessment for each ladder step. Gun was in a shooting vice type rest weighted with an extra 10 lbs off of a plastic topped hobby table on a dirt logging road at about 100 yards and was pretty steady and sturdy. Wind was minimal. After analysis the 31 grains grouped better, and felt better shooting. Out of the 5 shots 4 grouped at 3” and one flier 1.5” away from the outer edge of the group just a little high left. All were relative center of mast. After all shots were fired and I got home to clean the gun the next day I found minimal leading in the gun. 27-30 grains all grouped in a same realtive area once I got into 31-32 grains the groups started rising on the paper about 3-4" higher than the 27-30 grains. The 34 grains were about 6-8" higher than the 27-30 grain groups.

My plan:
1: Is to focus new loads in the 31 grain area
2: Try to tighten up the groups to a realistic level (Not looking to drive tacks using cast with a gun over twice my age).
3: Minimize the leading even more (I'm going to reslug my bore to verify my previous measurement, maybe opening up my resizing die may be the key to fixing accuarcy and leading?)
4: Once I have loads for the 155 gr down try to get the 170's accurate as well
5: Try powder coated loads and see where that goes.

Future reloading method on fire formed brass: Will have a Lee classic cast turret press and new dies listed below.
1) Universal deprime
2) FL resize, Trim, chamfer (Light), debur as the brass stretches or as or as needed.
Station 1) Hornady neck sizing die
Station 2: Lyman M die (seat the primer on the down stroke)
Station 3: Lee rifle charging die with Lee disk powder pro
Station 4: Lee Seat and crimp die (Light crimp to remove bell)

Would it be better to use the Lee FCD for neck tension vice a light crimp? If so I will deprime and neck expand on another turret and move the Lee FCD to station 4 and use the Seat and crimp die just to seat.

Any pet loads using the IMR 3031, how about red dot?

Please any advice, or help on round 2. Am I going about this the right way?

dualsport

11-20-2013, 03:24 PM

Sounds like you're having fun. If it was me I'd work up a load with the Red Dot first. Maybe something around 1200 fps. Then experiment with the faster loads. Lyman says : 169 gr. cast boolit/ 7.5 gr. Red Dot=1185 fps and max is 10.5 gr. Red Dot for 1460 fps.

BorderBrewer

11-20-2013, 04:14 PM

Glad you are getting good results with IMR3031. It is an accurate powder for me in 30-30 and 32 Special as well.

Springfield0612

11-20-2013, 05:54 PM

With that lilttle amount of Red Dot are people using fillers like the Dracon to keep the powder against the primers? I like the idea of red dot as I use it for my pistol loads, and if I ever reload shotgun......
Next question for Red Dot, is this more for plinking or would those ballistics of 1200-1500 FPS be good for deer? There's so much I need to know and learn about rifle reloading. But not much in the way of established readily available published reloading data for the .300 Savage with cast. I guess that is why I fell like I'm in a dark room with my hands tied behind my back and no light.

Springfield0612

11-20-2013, 05:55 PM

Glad you are getting good results with IMR3031. It is an accurate powder for me in 30-30 and 32 Special as well.

BorderBrewer,
Would you mind bestowing upon me your worldly knowledge of the .300 savage IMR 3031 cast loads you've been successful with? Is that 3" group considered good accuracy for this platform?

rintinglen

11-20-2013, 08:05 PM

Red Dot, Herco, Unique--just about any of the older flake shotgun powders--work well for low velocity plinker trainers. For hunting, though, you'll need to go with slower powders. One of my favorites, which worked very well in my old 99, is WW-748. I used 38.5 grains with a lyman 311-466 152 grain boolit for 2250 fps and 2-2 1/2 inch, 100 yard groups, albeit with some leading. 17.5 grains of 2400 was more accurate but slower.

Bret4207

11-20-2013, 09:00 PM

I used to shoot 30 gr 3031 with an RCBS 30-180FN that weighed about 190 grs in my 30-30. I think you're still in the very safe area. The big question is how are they grouping? Some of the older Lyman manuals had good 300 Sav data.

Have you cleaned the jacket fouling from the barrel?

Springfield0612

11-21-2013, 01:54 PM

blixen

11-21-2013, 02:36 PM

While you are waiting for an M die, if you want to bell out your case necks: I use a 8mm or 303 jacketed bullet. I tap it in nose down with a small nylon hammer--just enough to bell out the opening. It takes a knack to get consistent, but it works well enough that I never got around to buying a die to do it.

BTW, I've got a .300 Savage rifle, but it's in a rechambered Japanese Arisaka (a 7.7-300 Savage?). It needs at least a .311 boolit and .313 is even better, which makes seating a chore because the .300 Sav. chamber is tight. I've been using the Lee 185grain mold for the Brit .303--seated deeply-- with pretty good accuracy--2-3 inches at 100. I think it will do better.

MtGun44

11-21-2013, 03:53 PM

Consider about 10 gr of Unique or 16 gr of 2400 as possible loads to try also. Cheap and moderate
velocity, maybe 1400-1700 fps.

Bill

Springfield0612

11-21-2013, 04:22 PM

While you are waiting for an M die, if you want to bell out your case necks.

Oh no, I've got the M die in hand and all ready used it. I'm waiting on the Hornady Neck resizing die right now. But thanks, that is good knowledge to have for future members to use if they need it!

I keep reading and getting reccomendations about using 2400 powder. But all the manuals and articles that I've read reccomend not using 2400 as it performed well below all the other powders. I'll add it to the reccomended list though if I can find it!

Bret4207

11-21-2013, 06:48 PM

Bret4207- Jacket fouling is gone and non-existant. I got all that green crud outta there! I do have the Lyman 49th, 48th (electronic copy on my phone and the hard copy), and Lyman CBH 3rd (electronic on my phone), and have the .300 sava data from the most recent Lyman CBH. Grouping I feel is spoty at best with the loads that I worked up but the 31 grn gave a good group, best I've seen with cast out of this rifle using the 312-155. Using J-words, groups with the 150 grn factory was 1.5". Again I'm looking for hunting accuracy at 100-150 yards as here in western Washington a 100 yard shot is rare as the trees are so thick.

Were it me and if I wanted a hunting load I'd be sticking with the170FN, or better IMO the RCBS 30-180FN. The only caveat on the RCBS is length, I don't know what OAL the mag will take. My 99 in 308 will handle the RCBS 30-180FN like nothing, but it's the detachable mag model, not the rotary which you probably have if it's a 300. The Lee 155 is a SP isn't it? Not a good hunting design if it's the one I'm thinking of.

You really have to watch run out with the 300 and other short necked rounds. Even with the 308 I've had some boolits get cranked over a bit and wobble pretty good. Not conducive to good grouping! My limited experience with the 300 says it should shoot along side the 308 models once things come together. Under 2" should be doable with a little work and the right boolit. Check your fore end for binding, the 99's sometimes bear funny. And the but stock attachment has to be good and solid. Of course if you have a take down thats another issue. But I think you should be able to get decent hunting accuracy. I find long, heavier boolits for the caliber easier to get shooting good, others say just the opposite. I'd drop the water quenching to start with. It's a tool you use when you need it. You don't need "hard" for hunting deer. Try them AC, sized as large as will easily chamber and let them kiss the lands if you can.

3031 should work okay, but sometimes the faster powders work fine up into the 2K+ area with cast. Cast gets moving along a lot easier than jacketed. Bills suggestion of Unique or 2400 might be worth a try.

BorderBrewer

11-22-2013, 12:01 AM

Hi Springfield,
Sorry for the late reply. The following 3 favorite loads are for comfortable paper punching, and have proven to be accurate in my rifle.

NOE 30-150-FN sized .311
28 grains IMR3031, 2.5" OAL, CCI 200 Primer - 1.5" at 100yds

Lyman 311291 sized .311
27 grains IMR3031, 2.355 OAL, CCI 200 Primer - 2" at 100yds

Lyman 311041 sized .311
27.5 grains IMR3031, 2.375 OAL, CCI 200 Primer - 2" at 100yds

Regards,
BorderBrewer

guicksylver

11-22-2013, 12:22 PM

O.K. I have to jump in here!

I'm not going to knock any one BUT in defense of the Savage '99 and 1899,
they are shooting guns.

Over the last 45 yrs or so I've owned a couple of dozen along with Winchesters.

Both will shoot sub minute with cast boolits and good reloads.

Hunting loads are a diffent animal all together.

Sugestions As I have had people have good luck with my reloads in 300 savage for deer.

1. Slug your bore .309 sounds too small, boolit should be sized .002-.003 over throat diameter.

2. Your velocity is up there for your alloy, benchrest cast boolit shooters are in that velocity but use straight Lino type.

3. You will take deer with a 180-200 gr boolit at 1700-1800 FPS.

4, I've produced excellent groups with the 300 using Lyman 311407 seated WAY down in the case.

5. Powder choice comes only AFTER boolit size, lube, seating depth and alloy.

6. Check your boolits with a magnifying glass to make sure thy are filled out and have sharp edges.
CULL CULL CULL. If you are going to go through all the expense and time involved in a hunt go with the best.

7. I Shot one 300 over 1500 rnds with no leading or cleaning except for pushing a dry patch through once and a while.

Again I write this in defense of the 1899 and '99's

Good luck, you have a fine rifle there that should perform beautifully with the RIGHT cast boolits.

blixen

11-22-2013, 02:05 PM

O.K. I have to jump in here!
Thanks--as a novice CB caster, your back-to-the-basics comments are invaluable (so far, I've only shot a Sav. 99 in my dreams). I'll apply them to frustrations I'm having with my .300 Sav Arisaka and 30WCFs.

Springfield0612

11-22-2013, 05:44 PM

Thanks, to everyone! Great info! I'm gaining more and more confidence on accomplishing this.

Bret4207- For the Lee 312-155 if I can get good groups I was going to HP some boolits for hunting and try out expansion tests as well. Yes it's a very pointy bullet. I found that with a fresh cast boolit, if I fully seat the gas check against a hard surface with a little hand tool I made I can flatten out the nose a bit pretty well without damaging the bullet (causing out of round). I am amazed at the difference in complexity of reloading rifle cast versus pistol cast. But I enjoy the journey and the challenge. Knowledge is power!
Now that you mention the stock being inline and proper it makes me think. My buddy bought a new Savage .308 win tactical setup heavy free floating barell etc, a couple years back and he took it home, took it all apart to clean it before his first sight in. When we got to the range it was shooting about a 2' group, yes feet. We checked the scope rings, checked the ring bases, all was tight. I borrowed the ranges lead sled to take the jerk variable out since he hadn't shot a rifle in a LONG time. It still grouped like at 1'. We stopped and took a smoke break and I asked, "Tell me how you cleaned the rifle." He started, "Well first I wanted to clean the trigger mechanism so I took off the stock...." I was like NO!!!!!.......... Walked back to the bench and he hadn't retightened the forestock screw I could turn it in and out with my finger nail. He was affraid to mess up the screw on his new rifle. [smilie=b: Tightened that down properly and holy cow it was a thing of beauty. A week later on a bet, he drilled a tree rat at 50 yards free standing unsupported. That poor little guy just exploded!:lol: I'm gonna go home and check the stock and make sure all is good there as well. I've been chasing the rabbit with the ammo maybe its the gun!

Last night I got home to a new Lee Classic Turret press from Midsouthshooters as well as the Hornady .30 cal Short neck sizing die. Hoping now that I will be using fire formed brass that may tighten the groups up as well.

Sylver,
Thank you for that. That is exactly what I needed to hear. Some of the best info anyone has ever given me. I truly appreciate your knowledge.

Border,
Thanks for the load data now I've got something to compare against.

Bret4207

11-22-2013, 06:20 PM

O.K. I have to jump in here!

I'm not going to knock any one BUT in defense of the Savage '99 and 1899,
they are shooting guns.

I agree completely. Hope I didn;t give the impression that I thought otherwise. I think I own 4 or 5 right now!

Bret4207

11-22-2013, 06:26 PM

Thanks, to everyone! Great info! I'm gaining more and more confidence on accomplishing this.

Bret4207- For the Lee 312-155 if I can get good groups I was going to HP some boolits for hunting and try out expansion tests as well.

Bud, if'n I was you, I'd forget that noise and find myself a nice FP design. The flat nose is going to do all sorts of very nice things in hunting in a very reliable manner. Sticking a HP in a pointy little 155 gr boolit is going to make it pretty short in the end and it'll probably be down in the 130 gr range, maybe even less. I assure you that you'll find the plain old boring FN is a killer. Getting HP's to do what you want at rifle velocity requires a lot of messing around finding alloys that are ductile enough to mushroom without coming apart and still being strong enough to take the velocity of over 2K fps. It's not rocket science, but it's getting close sometimes. Save yourself some headaches until you get things a little more figured out would be my advice.

richhodg66

11-22-2013, 07:57 PM

I have two .300 Savage rifles I've been working with to hunt deer with when our season opens soon. One is a 99EG and one is a Model 1920. Both shoot the Ideal 31141 are the NOE clone of it I have as well as I can shoot iron sights generally (I have peep sights on both). The NOE clone has a slightly larger diameter bore riding nose so I had to adjust seating depth deeper to get it to feed and chamber right, but I'm using 28 grains of IMR 4895 and a little Dacron filler. Hopefully I'll have a deer to show for it in a week and a half.

Springfield0612

11-25-2013, 01:42 PM

Bud, if'n I was you, I'd forget that noise and find myself a nice FP design. The flat nose is going to do all sorts of very nice things in hunting in a very reliable manner.

All right, I will. My first .30 cal mold that I got was the Lee 309-170-F. But I got the 312-155 because of the lube grooves being more user friendly with the .300 savage's short neck. The other reason I went with the 155 is there is more reloading data available in that range. Now that I look back into the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 3rd edition they have a bullet design similar to the Lee 170gr. Its the Lyman #311291 169 gr. It says seat to 2.358" and for the IMR-3031 starting at 26.7gr for 1823 FPS. and max 35 gr for 2388 FPS. Lyman 48th edition confirms this data with very minor differences in powder charge.

So I'll get home and load up a dummy round and seat to those specs and see how that round chambers.

Looking back at my notes when I was trying the 309-170 I was seating it to the jacketed data that I had for 2700 powder. I was seating to 2.55" IAW the manual data again for jacketed as I did not find any data like in the Lyman manual and seating that long bullet that shallow I didn't feel comfortable with that many lube grooves hanging out. So hopefully that extra .02" deeper may look better to me.

Bret4207

11-25-2013, 10:00 PM

With cast it's really best if you ignore the manuals seating depth for jacketed, (jeeze that sounds dangerous, but trust me!) Instead, seat the boolit so that it lightly seats in the leade, that is, so you get a little bit of a rifling mark on the nose. That tends to help keep things lined up right or something, all I know is it works. You don't want to jam the boolit into the rifling, just kiss it.

The lube grooves. Yeah it looks weird having them uncovered, but given the choice between exposed grooves and less accurate shooting, I'll take the exposed grooves. Give it a try.

Springfield0612

11-26-2013, 01:00 PM

88653
1) Far right is the Lyman reccomended seating of 2.358". This seats the bullet with the crimp groove just below the mouth
2)Middle Is the bullet seating just at the crimp groove and is about 2.414".
3)Far right is the first load that I worked up seating per the Lyman 49th data for jacketed as there is no data for cast that I could find using 2700 powder with a 170 grn cast bullet. This one works in the magazine, chambers, and ejects without issue. It also just touches the rifling. But it looks really, really odd.

All three loads work in the magazine as the are seated below the 2.55" requirement for the magazine clearance.

88654

This picture shows the difference in the Lee 312-155 and the Lee 309-170-F

Thoughts?

Springfield0612

11-26-2013, 01:11 PM

This one is to show the bullet base location in the case in relation to the seating depth.
88655
Same order. 2.358"

88656
2.414"

88657
2.55"

MtGun44

11-26-2013, 07:18 PM

I would suggest .310 or .311 diameter may be more accurate.

Bill

Springfield0612

11-26-2013, 07:42 PM

MtG44,
I was just doing an internet search for lapping compounds to open up my Lee die to .310-.311 so that way I can crimp my GC's without swagging down my bullets.

This is the only thing that i can find locally: http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/VER0/13209.oap?ck=Search_valve+grinding+compound_-1_3730&keyword=valve+grinding+compound

Hopefully it will work.

Bret4207

11-26-2013, 09:21 PM

I would seat them at the longest length you have there. IMO getting the boolit well out into the throat does nothing but good things.

I opened a Lee .329 sizer to .332 in 200 back and forth rolls with 320 paper on a cleaning rod. It's not at all hard to do, the dies are rather soft.

MtGun44

11-26-2013, 09:58 PM

What diam do they cast now? Most Lee .30 cal molds will make .311 as cast. If yours
won't do it, look up "beagling" the mold, basically sticking a couple pieces of metallic
aluminum tape to slightly hold the mold halves apart. Yes, the boolit is out of round,
no, it doesn't hurt. Sizes to round only larger.

Listen to what Bret says about seating depth.

Bill

blixen

11-27-2013, 11:46 AM

This thread got me inspired so I loaded some rounds for my misbegotten 7.7 X 300 Sav. Arisaka . Pleasant surprise:
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/27/esu6ezu7.jpg

Of course, the Lee 185 gr. slug is apples to oranges to your .309 challenge.

Springfield0612

11-27-2013, 12:55 PM

Blixen,
Glad you got some inspiration from this thread! That's a good looking group.

MtG44,
I measured some of my Lee 309-170-F's last night. They were air cooled and have been age hardening now for about 5 weeks. All measured between .3105 and .3110 on the dot. Last night I ordered some chamber casting alloy from rotometals.com. http://www.rotometals.com/product-p/chamber_casting_alloy.htm
From all the advice I've been given on this thread and what I've read elsewhere here on CB that for shooting cast in rifle a chamber casting is more nessecery than just sluggin the bore. So I purchased an ingot. It will also be helpful getting this .300 Savage beat down and figured out as I'm about to start the same journey with a WWII .30-06 rifle as well.
I'll restart the work up on the 309-170 once I get the chamber casting done and open up the sizing die to where it needs to be. Thanks for all the help and hope everyone has a happy holiday. I'll update when I have one!

Bret4207

11-27-2013, 07:54 PM

Look, I don't mean to be squashing any ideas you have, but just out of curiosity try measuring the inside of a case fired in that gun with a full powered load. That is as big as you're reasonably going to be able to chamber and usually that's about where you'll end up in the end. If it's .311 or .310 or whatever that's about where I'd loo to start. Lots easier than the chamber casting which you can still do later if you want.

Springfield0612

11-28-2013, 08:15 PM

Bret,
No worries, I'll give it a shot and see what it comes out to. At thus point I'll try anything and everything with in a price range just to have the knowledge.

Thanks for the recommendation.

Bret4207

11-29-2013, 09:54 AM

I just don't want to sound like I always have a better idea or something. Just passing along stuff I've picked up over the years.

blixen

11-30-2013, 11:36 AM

I just don't want to sound like I always have a better idea or something. Just passing along stuff I've picked up over the years.

Thanks for the tip. I've been reloading a few years and I appreciate any advice -- especially what some folks think are basics that anyone should know. One thing I learned is you gotta leave the bench and SHOOT to really know what works. Besides, it's fun.

Springfield0612

12-02-2013, 01:44 PM

All right, seems that I have taken 1 step forward and 2 steps back.

I measured the inside of the rim of 20 fired full powered loads. All measurements came out to .310" and I measured each case 5 times resetting the calliper to "0" before each measurement. So .310" it is. So I should be sizing to .311" minimum based off of this method.

I pulled the rifle apart to verify no binding on the screws that hold the stocks on. Also allowed me to get into the lever area and get a good deep cleaning. The only thing I removed at this point was the bolt to get in and cast the chamber.

I got the chamber casting alloy from Rotometals.com. Super fast shippping and nice and clean alloy. I cast the chamber 2 times and even cast the last 3 inches of the muzzle just to verify. The measuremenst I got from the chamber were very very confusing. But I do see the need to allow the bullet to seat as far out as possible to engage the riffling. Being able to see how far out the riffling starts puts me more at ease with the 309-170.

Now the two steps back. Saturday I was casting the chamber and told myself to ensure that when driving the slug out to depress the Automatic cut off lever that sticks out into the chamber. My 6 y/o son was helping hold the rifle and I started tapping the chamber casting out. I felt resistance and tapped one more time. I looked down to see a "V" spring fall from the rifle and I immediately knew what I forgot to do. [smilie=b: I drove the chamber slug out and it caught on the cutoff lever and bent it backwards. Doing so it bent and cracked the chamber casting slug as well. Which is why I did a second chamber casting.

Now my initial thought was this is an old rifle from 1957 and I just screwed the pooch, this thing is done, I'm not going to be able to find the part to fix this, I'm gonna have to take it to a gunsmith to repair the part and it's going to cost me more than the price of the rifle......... Dang I'm stupid!

So after cooling down and pulling myself out of a depressive funk on Sunday I started the search for replacing the part. Where did I start? Right here on CB. I found the thread that has a sticky for gun parts old and new and I came acrossed https://www.gunpartscorp.com/ After feverishly searching the different models of the 1899 I thought I was lost as they didn't list parts for the 99EG. Then for some reason I clicked the regular model 99 link and there it is, the very first part listed: https://www.gunpartscorp.com/Products/969540.htm $16.95 and USPS Flat rate shipping. SOLD!!!!!

So my adventure for shooting cast boolits in my 1957 Model 99EG .300 Savage is now also an adventure into gunsmithing. Well knowledge is power and it is also priceless.

Last night I took an hour and about 20 boolits and some lapping compound and I opened up my .309 sizing die to .3115" I verifyed the measurement by running 3 Lee 356-124-RNTL boolit and swagged it through my new .3115" sizing die and all three came out to .3115". The reason I didn't go all the way to .312" is my Lee 309-170 mold drops at .310-.311 so I wanted to be able to still crimp the GC on. The Lee 312-155 mold drops at .313"-.314" so I should be good there as well. While I was at it I opened up my .356" sizer to .358" for my 9mm needs. Using lapping compound and running boolits through is a very long slow process but it worked and I didn't have a lot of fear of going too far over since it is such a slow process.

Now I've got to wait for the new automatic cut off lever to show up and put my rifle back together and start moving forward again. Anyone ever disassemble the rotary magazine on one of these bad boys? Any advice? I've found loads of videos on Youtube but none go so far as to take apart the rotary magazine.

blixen

12-02-2013, 04:18 PM

And I thought I was the only one that stuff happens to...
You'll sure know your rifle intimately by the time you're done.

26Charlie

12-03-2013, 09:46 AM

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?68260-M99-300-Savage-bullet-test and
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?1541-311291-175gr-in-300-Savage-rifles may be of interest to you. I have since sent the Reising rifle to Poulin's auction, to raise some cash for another rifle I want.

Springfield0612

12-09-2013, 12:39 PM

All right got an update to let everyone know that I didn't give up on this.

1) I got the new cutoff lever in the mail on Friday and got it installed on Saturday. It was quite easy. However when I was casting the chamber I had a little spill over that went into the case extractor hole by the chamber and wasn't allowing me to fully close the bolt. Easy fix. 180 degrees of heat and it dribbled out. RIFLE IS BACK TOGETHER!!!!!!!!!!

2) I helped my neighbor with his computer and digital photos Saturday and Sunday. He's in the later stages of Huntingtons Disease and his memory is slipping away from him. So I set his computer up to play a slide show of his famiy pictures so he can keep that part of his memory fresh. I made key chains and ornaments out of empty .300 Sav brass with the powder coated matte balck Lee 312-155 seated on top and gave him one. He was so greatful for all the help and the key chain he said, "Follow me." We went out into the garage and he opened up his tool box and said, "These were my dads tools from when he used to rebuild engines. I think I've got something in here that may help you out with your reloading." He flips the box open and right on top are three of the classic Starrett micrometers. 1", 4", and 6". He picked up the 1" and said, "Is that something you can use?" My jaw dropped and all I could do was graciously accept his gift. He's resigned himself that the Huntingtons is winning and he's not going to be able to use most of his tools. He has no sons, and his son in-laws are more focused on video games and alcohol and could care less about tools and guns. He let me look through the box and told me if there was anything else that looked like I could use it's mine. He thinks he has a Starrett inside diameter micrometer as well, he said if we find it, it's mine. My neighbor is awesome!

3) So with my new to me Starrett micrometer in hand I run home to verify my bore and chamber castings. They've been sitting well over 96 hours hours, so they're done growing the ".0025. I put the micrometer on and twist the knob. .3125" on the dot. So .3125" Minus .0025" .310"! Same as measuring the inside necks of the fired brass. BRET4207, I never doubted you, but this does verify that your method is very accurate and a sure fire way of getting a good measurement!

4) Saturday night I took 40 of the Lee 309-170's, seated the gas checks, passed them through my opened up sizing die, then I powder coated them with the GC on. After the bake and cool down on Sunday, I again passed them through the sizing die, I measured with the micrometer. .312" on the dot. Exactly .002" over bore size. This is working out well!

5) So I pulled out the Lyman manual and they reccomend starting at 26.5 gr of 3031. Looking back at my records when I was working up loads, my previous groups and taking into consideration the reccomendations I recevied here to keep my velocity around the 1800 FPS range for hunting I estimated that the 27-28 gr range is going to be my target area for velocity and accuracy.

6) So using the Lee VMD calculator from www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/bin/xls/VMD_Calculator.xls‎ I made a spreadsheet for all possible disk combinations for the IMR 3031 for the starting load of 26.5 gr to 35 gr. I then loaded 5 rounds of each from 27-28.2 grains. I loaded and extra 8 rounds at 28.2 gr to use to re-sight in my scope because I removed it to cast the chamber.

Next Step. Brave the cold and put some PC'd lead down range! Pics and a range report soon I hope! Maybe a week or two!

Springfield0612

12-09-2013, 12:55 PM

One last add on.

7) I calculated my needed seating depth. http://www.loaddata.com/articles/PDF/LD-12%20Haviland%20LR.pdf

Quote from the article that I followed.

" Another technique uses a fired case, cleaning rod with a flat tip and a fine tip marking pen. Take a fired case and ever so slightly open up the case mouth rim, just enough so a bullet slips in with a bit of a push. Make sure the fired primer is flush
or below flush with the case head face, or an incorrect reading will occur when measuring final OAL. Slip a bullet in the case mouth and leave it protruding obviously long out of the case. Gently insert the cartridge into the chamber and close the bolt. The bullet will be resting up against the rifling. Slowly insert the cleaning rod into the muzzle until it contacts the bullet tip. Mark the rod at the muzzle. Remove the cartridge and then close the action. Push the rod into the bore until it contacts the bolt face and then mark the rod again. The distance between the two marks is the OAL where that bullet contacts the beginning of the rifling
of that rifle."

I don't have my notes in front of me. IIRC for the powder coated Lee 309-170 my seating depth came out to 2.483". I'll edit and update this evening. I still need to do the same for the Lee 312-155. I know it will need to be set a little deeper as I chambered a powder coated 312-155 set at 2.483" and the last little bit to fully close the bolt was very snug and took a little extra to seat the lever down fully. When I extracted the round there were some very positive rifling marks engraved on the nose. Not much deeper but just a bit.