New thread on paper patching.

[wiliamr]

Here goes:
I have done a good bit of shooting with the Shiloh Sharps wil GG bullets ( the Lyman 457677 gives great accuracy) and now, want to try paper patch bullets. I am looking for sources for already patched bullets. (Montana Bullets seems to be out of business) Also willing to read all I can on how to learn to patch and make up patching board etc. So, for all those who are willing to not only offer the "I Think" and the "I would" I want to learn. Am willing to try to learn the nearly lost art. Thanks

[country gent]

Give Randolph S Wrights Book, Loading and Shooting Paper Patched bullets a Begginners Guide a read its very good. Orville C. Loomers Patched Bullets is informative. Personnally I dont thik it has the information of Wrights. And Paul Mathews the paper jacket is informative also. Buffalo Arms offers some very good swaged bullets in dia for Patching But you have to patch them yourself.. What are you wanting to do bore dia bullets or groove dia? Paul Mathews give a good description and instructions for the Patch Board. Read the above books and they will answer alot of questions. There are many here who are very knowlegable also.

[Don McDowell]

Lots of luck finding bullets already patched. Those that MBW sold were groove diameter and would need to be seated as deep as a jacketed bullet in able to chamber it.
The diameter of your bullet will be mostly determined by what you're wanting to do with it. .441-442 makes a decent hunting bullet diameter when wrapped in 9# paper, .444-.446 works best for target shooting wrapped in 8# paper. Fouling control needs to be addressed, and that again will be determined by the type of shooting you're planning on doing. Wad stacks,,, on and on. Lots of things to be considered.

[wiliamr]

Umm I know knothing about Pp bullets other than reading.
I have a wonderful Shiloh Sharps 45-70 I got from a very kind person who I feel gave me a deal. I have great success with Lyman 457677 bullets cast at 490 gr. and lubed with SPG. (about 20:1 alloy). I shoot Swiss 1 1/2 FG powder out of this fine rifle. What do you folks suggest Bore or groove diameter bullets? swaged vs cast. I will admit to having a ton of mid to late '60's typing paper that is 25% rag content. I ahve metal to cast either 20:1, 30:1 or most anything. I would use this rifle for mostly shooting out to 500 or 600 yrds. I am getting older (mid 60's) and am near sighted needing trifocals. I am about to ask the eye doc for a scrip for bi focals ofr daily use as the tri focal is not used, heck I just take off glasses for reading.

[johnson1942]

their is another way you can go that nobody has spoke of. buy swageing equipment and swage your bullets out of lead wire. you have put a lot of money into a very fine gun. put some more into a swageing press and a die or two and swage your bullets from pure lead wire. years ago i bought a very strong swageing press. over the years i have added nose and base punches to it as well as dies. i might even suspect their are used press out their for swageing. RCE is who i deal with now. he is the brother to corbin and a little more reasonable and very very friendly and conversational. once you have the equiptment it wont wear out unless you put a piece of hard lead in a die as that will blow them apart. you can also reshape cast bullets to your die without useing lead wire. if they are harder than pure lead just bring them to the point of reshapeing instead of extrudeing any wire. i probably reshape bullets more than useing lead wire. i have dies in .40 .440 .448 .451 .459 and .50 believe it or not i find in my 45/70 the long point noses dont shoot near as well as the short round ones, also my very best bullet shape is a elmer kieth short square nose. i even have hollow base punches that shoot very well as opposed to a flat base. once you have the die of the diamater you want base and nose punches are reasonable in price. consider it you wont be sorry. have fun

[country gent]

Bore dia allows for a little more powder capacity and I feel a better bullet alighnment to the bore when done right. And is the more traditional way. Groove dia works well also the bullet is seated deeper into the case as chamber permits. Had a friend trying paper patched bullets in a rolling block ( pendersoli made) found out the first owner cut a longer throat for a lymann snoover bullet.Making bore riders hard to make work. Groovre dia works patched to throat dia. Slug your barrel get the actual bore and groove dimensions, Make a chamber cast with cerrosafe to see what your chamber is. That way you can make an informed decission as to what you want to do. Buffalo Arms has bullets temmplates and paper. Paper thickness X4 + bullet dia gives you a good idea of finished dia of wrapped bullet. A .442 dia bullet with 2 wraps of 9Lb onion paper will be ( .002x4 = .008 + .442) = .450 dia. cupped bases make the fold under easier to deal with also. You can wrap dry or with damp patches a lightly damp patch seems to roll tighter for me. Reading the diffrent books and past posts here will also help give you an idea of what and how.

[Gunlaker]

William, you can find out all you need to know here and on the Shiloh site. I can also recommend Mr. Wright's book.

Doesn't Buffalo Arms sell pp bullets? You'd have to patch them yourself, but that is very easy.

I'd personally start with a .444" bullet patched with 8lb Seth Cole paper which you can order on line. I bought several rolls on eBay. I like it a lot more than any of the other paper I've tried.

As far as the load goes, I'd start with a lube cookie between veg wads and as much powder fits into the case such that your bullet sits between 0.1" to 0.125" deep. That'll likely shoot pretty well.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

For the purpose you have stated, for starters I'ld take a serious look at a .444 diameter slug weighing no more than 500 grs.wrapped in 8# paper, seated into the case about 1/4 to 1/3 of an inch and setting on top of at least one .060 fiber wad. Wipe between shots with a 2.5 inch patch damp from a solution of Napa cutting oil and water 7-1 mixed, pushed thru the bore on a nylon 45 cal rifle brush, followed by a dry patch, mop the chamber dry .

[wiliamr]

I am ordering a copy of Mr. Wrights book. I'm going to give BA folks a call and pick up 50 - 100 .444 500gr bulets. I have been having great luck with Swiss 1 1/2FG powder. There is nearly no fouling to speak of. I have been able to fire 20 rounds in a match here with no perceptable visual fouling. I can get the bore clean with 3 or 4 patches using Windex for first patch, 2nd is moose milk and the next couple are damp MM, followed by drying patches. I suppose the part that I am most concerned about is the paper or a source. I have some 25% rag typing paper I was told once would be ok for this. But I am thinking perhaps paper designed for it would be best. I truely appreciate all the input you folks are sharing with me.

[montana_charlie]

I suppose the part that I am most concerned about is the paper or a source. I have some 25% rag typing paper I was told once would be ok for this.
Measure the thickness of that "typing paper".

Stack ten sheets and check it with your calipers, then divide that result by ten to get a reasonable average for a single sheet.
Use 'T' to identify that number.

Multiply T by 4 to find the (approximate) diameter increase your paper will provide when wrapped twice around a bullet.
Use 'W' to signify this value.

Add W to a bullet diameter (such as .444") to find the 'patched to' diameter that you are likely to get.
Is that number .450"?

CM

[Don McDowell]

I haven't used this paper, but it has been recommended by a highly reliable source http://www.utrechtart.com/Utrecht-Tracing-Paper-Roll--8-0-lb---White-26-MP-10530-002-i1008939.utrecht

The thing a person runs into with getting a paper that's to thick is a lot of unexplained high flyers and dirt diggers.

[Lead pot]

The thing a person runs into with getting a paper that's too thick is a lot of unexplained high flyers and dirt diggers.

Don it goes deeper than that. It's not just the thickness of the paper.
rdnck is a good example with the fine accuray he gets using the regular copy paper and a .45 caliber bullet diameter he uses that is close to my .44 bullet.
I have PP loads that use a thicker paper and I get patches that are just cut on the outer layer with the undersized bullets I use with that paper and I get some very good groups with no vertical problems at all ranges.
The patch placement has a lot to do with the vertical problems and how the patch is folded under the base.
A lot of the shooters that are getting into the PP loads seem to blame the paper and powder for dirt diggers when the problem lies other where.

[Don McDowell]

Kurt , I think that you can use a small diameter bullet with thick paper and get along pretty good. Heck I wrap the .435 tank buster in 20 lb cotton paper and it shoots alright in 45 caliber rifles. But shooting the .444 bullet I got a number of dirt diggers at long range using the 9 lb paper. Using the 8 lb paper those went away. Same with .435's and 9 lb vs 8 lb in my 44.

[Gunlaker]

Kurt when you use the thicker paper are you wet or dry patching?

Chris.

[country gent]

One thing I am have also noticed over the summer of shooting the bore riding patched bullets is when one chambers "tighter" ( compared to the normal easy slip into the chamber) it tends to go high right out of the group. My bullets tend to ru .001-.0015 under bore dia with the last batch I did. Its an observation Ive made over several testings.

[johnson1942]

i found in a old book a little trick no matter what thickness of paper you use that helps in accracy. when the paper is put on wet it really form fit and is tight on the bullet. take a very sharp small knife and cut along the seam line about 3/4 of the way to the base through the paper. i do this for both my 45/70 and my .45 fast twist muzzle loader. the paper stays on the bullet through the barrel and comes off very easy at the muzzle. accuracy is consistantly tight. when the paper is put on wet it doesnt move when cut because it is form fitted to the bullet. it isnt my brainstorm but a trick a national long range match shooter used in the late 1800/s. i shot some to day like this at 125 yards and the hole were real tight next to each other. it was out of my 1/18 twist muzzle loader, getting ready for deer season. no matter if a muzzle loader or my stevens 44 and 1/2 45/70 this makes paper patching really easy and consistant. have fun

[Lead pot]

Chris,

I wrap dry only. I have never found any advantage wraping wet over dry.
I will say this about wet patching. I have found patch stuck to the cardboard @ 200 yards using wet patched bullets.

[sharpsguy]

I think that one cause of high and low flyers is not just the thickness of the paper, but the surface finish. If it is too slick and polished it doesn't wipe the fouling from the previous shot as well as a paper with a slightly rougher texture. I like to use the scratch pads from Office Depot as they are readily available, cheap, and work for me. Like Lead Pot, I wrap dry only.