Cap and Ball cast bullet woes!

[IROCZ]

I recently dug out an old Italian reproduction cap and ball revolver that I have had for years. It was broken when I bought it and I finally fitted it with new parts to get it work. That went well and now it functions. I took it to the range after casting some .451 round balls from pure lead and tried to shoot it at 25 yards. It shot into about a foot and a half group, about a foot high. I also had several cap jams that did put it out of order after 2 cylinders. I did some reading on this an other sites that told me I need new nipples. I am trying to figure out which ones to order. As far as the accuracy, or lack there of... I will order some over powder wads for it. I just used bore butter over the ball this time. But the thing that truly concerns me is when I slugged the bore and cylinder I found that the bore is .439/.447 but the ball comes out of the cylinder at .442. This tells me that it's not really engaging the rifling much if at all. I'm guessing some machine work or a new larger chamber cylinder may be in order. Does a pure lead round ball slug up to fit the barrel? The revolver is marked "Hawes Firearms Company, Los Angeles Calif" It has the DGG (Dixie Gun?) stamp on the underside of the barrel. It is a historically incorrect .44 caliber Navy model. I posted pics of the revolver and the proof marks, can anyone tell me what Italian firm produced this thing, Pietta maybe? And when it was produced? Thanks in advance for any replies!

[IROCZ]

Well, a little google action at the insistence of my wife told me it is an Armi San Paolo product proofed in 1970. It is in excellent condition and I put a new hand and spring and all other internals in it from Dixie. After a little tuning it works fine. I will put a hammer stop in it later. Thanks!

[mooman76]

Normally for that revolver it uses more like a 454 ball. That may help your accuracy.

[IROCZ]

I was thinking that too but with a smaller chamber in the cylinder I'm not sure it would help much. A Lee .454 is only 20 bucks so I will order one up next payday. I wonder if any of the black powder barrel making smiths could open up my cylinder to .450 or so. One thing I've learned from this site is "Bullet fit is everything". So that's why I was concerned about the dimensions. Thanks Moonman.

[R.M.]

Reaming the cylinder out to a couple of thou over groove diameter sure wouldn't hurt. I think they do that thinking it'll reduce pressures or something. Maybe a lawyer thing too.

[Hellgate]

Most of my chambers in both colt & Remington clones come out at about .448 so your chambers are pretty undersized. Reaming should do wonders. You'll notice a little more recoil when fired. After I reamed one of my .44 "Navies" it kicked a little more than its brother. I do not notice it during a Cowboy Action match. All my guns work with the .454 LEE or Lyman round balls.

[bob208]

ream or bore the chambers out to .448-449/ use .451 balls. that should get it shooting. if you lived a little closer we could do it here and try it out.

[Ohio Rusty]

If the cylinders measure .442, .445 ball moulds are available. Maybe someoen can send you some .445's to try. They should be a tight fit.
Ohio Rusty><>

[IROCZ]

ream or bore the chambers out to .448-449/ use .451 balls. that should get it shooting. if you lived a little closer we could do it here and try it out.

Hey Bob, I was thinking of getting out the lapping compound, or the Brownells catalog and trying it myself.

[IROCZ]

If the cylinders measure .442, .445 ball moulds are available. Maybe someoen can send you some .445's to try. They should be a tight fit.
Ohio Rusty><>

Hey Rusty, The .445 balls would still rattle down the .447 bore I would think. The .451's press fit just fine into the small cylinder. Thanks for the reply.

[bob208]

well you could make a lap and have at it but .006-.007 x 6 would be a lot of lapping.

[KCSO]

You need to have the chambers reamed a relativly simple operation. As to the shooting high you willneed a higher front sight if you want to be dead on at 25 yards as these were battle sighted to hit a torso at 100 yards.

[IROCZ]

well you could make a lap and have at it but .006-.007 x 6 would be a lot of lapping.
Yes it does, I'm thinking a med grit flex hone from Brownells. I have always had good luck with Brownells. Thanks.

[IROCZ]

You need to have the chambers reamed a relativly simple operation. As to the shooting high you willneed a higher front sight if you want to be dead on at 25 yards as these were battle sighted to hit a torso at 100 yards.

That will be my next project on this piece. All the replacement front sights appear too short. After I get it to the point of shooting into a group, as opposed the pattern its providing now.

[uncowboy]

cylindersmith.com Cas does excellent work and is cheap to boot. he has done several for me and my friends. great work. J.Michael

[IROCZ]

Thanks Uncowboy, I checked his site out and it seems he only works on cartridge revolver cylinders, and only .45's. I'm thinking the cylinder hone might be the way to go on this one. I just ordered the new nipples from TOW. The next call will be to Brownells.

[IROCZ]

Well I got the nipples from T.O.W. And I'm looking at buying the reamer. I'm thinking .449 should fill up that .447 grove correctly. Any thoughts or opinions on the bullet to bore size fit? They have reamers in several diameters.

[fouronesix]

Not a lot of thought about it but consider that in revolvers, that bullet has to span a gap then hit a forcing cone (funnel) before getting into the bore. It could be counterproductive to size much larger than groove diameter. It's different from a captive chamber/throat design. Very critical to accuracy is alignment between the cylinder throats and the bore.

[Omnivore]

Those are some very severe drag lines, running completely around that cylinder. Something is (or was) definitely wrong there.

That should never happen, though I once saw a Colt Walker at a gun show that had been "tuned by a professional gunsmith" and it looked about like that. The bolt released almost immediately after it unlocked, so on half-cock you were constantly dragging the bolt.

I see a 44 Colt "Navy" like that, and I think "Pietta". Then again I've been known to think wrong.

[IROCZ]

Was wrong. It was never actually fired but was played with to death. All the internals including the hammer have been replaced and tuned. It no longer drops early.