TEST 5 of Hubel-Blazing-Dixie-Greg-FH-inspired loads; 12 and 20ga w pics!!!

[cpileri]

Test 5 of Greg-Turbo-Tommygirl-FH-SuperBlazing-Dixie-Hawglips-inspired loads in NEF USH: 12ga and 20ga loads

I really should entitle this thread as above, since I took so much from these folks. I don’t think the title bar will allow me all those characters, though. In any case, if you gave me direct info or inspiration in any form, THANK YOU!

Also, I added a new characteristic for the 12ga loads, Power Category. Basically, in the interest of safety I will detail the pressure and velocity if known and categorize the load as:
“normal” (safe in all MODERN shotguns in good working condition, under 13.5kpsi w typical shotgun pressure curve),
“Blazing” (safe in modern shotguns in good working order with muzzle thickness minimum .91”, under 13.5kpsi but longer pressure curve),
“barely From H_ll” (safe in USH and other shotguns with breech 1.2” diameter and muzzle minimum 1” diameter in good working condition. From 13.5-16.5kpsi AND longer pressure curve),
and
“FH” or “from H_ll” (safe only in highly modified Mauser/rolling block mega-strong actions w custom heavy barrels etc as in ‘you would know if you have one’-strength guns. From 16.5kpsi up to 25kpsi and UPWARDS. Don’t expect too many of these).

Date: 14 Oct 2013
Elevation: 764ft
Temp: 73degF
Wind: 5-10mph SSE
Humidity: 88% (intermittent showers)
Platform: either,
NEF/H&R Ultra Slug Hunter, Bore: .731, lands .721”; chamber reamed to 3.5”, 24” fully rifled bbl, forcing cone polished and smoothly blends w beginning of rifling, (chamber cast pics available) stock and forearm weighted: balance point ~1inch forward of trigger guard, total weight 12+lbs w/ scope, hammer w/ offset spur installed
with Scope: el cheapo BSA 1x25 red dot w 3 MOA dot (have Bushnell TRS-25 to install, but haven’t yet)
So, keep in mind, I am shooting using a cheapie scope, with a red dot on an orange target, on a bright Texas day. So I cant even see the dot once it is over the orange tape. A better scope set up, and accuracy might be even better.
Notes: this weighted, heavy, gun was fired from seated “double gun” position (hand under forearm and resting hand/wrist on stand, gun to shoulder, body leaning in; pulling snugly both down and into shoulder. No shooting jacket nor shoulder pad though- too hot outside!) Buttstock has really squishy pad on it (*). As before, muzzle flipped a lot and stock slipped down off shoulder w each shot of heavy loads; but still absolutely no discomfort at all.
(*)this pad: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00081Q7E4/ref=oh_details_o04_s01_i02?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Or
in 20ga, two regular ol’guns- very un-special:
Stevens Model 94, series K 3” chamber, smoothebore, cylinder (backbored out the choke), 28” bbl measuring 1.151” at breech and 0.768” at muzzle. Did install open iron sights on it front and rear.
Or
H&R pardner 3’ chamber (iron receiver, I think, not the rifle one-357mag/44mag and shotgun only), cylinder bore (backbored as above) 21”bbl measuring 1.11” at breech and 0.745” at muzzle, front bead sight only.

Whether I test them in the USH (rifled), or in which 20ga, will be noted in the text.

Target distance: mostly 50 yds (laser verified) unless otherwise specified, tested the TSS Shot at 30 yds though.

Chamber cast note: used Cerrosafe which, for anyone who doesn’t know, an alloy of 42.5% Bismuth, 8.5% cadmium, 37.7% lead, 11.3% Tin which melts somewhere btw 158-190degF and then shrinks and then expands again over time; like this:
2 minutes - .0004"
6 minutes - .0007"
30 minutes - .0009"
1 hour +/- .0000"
2 hours + .0016"
5 hours + .0018"
7 hours + .0019"
10 hours + .0019"
24 hours + .0022"
96 hours + .0025"
200 hours + .0025"
500 hours + .0025"

Took all measurements at approx the . 60 . minute mark, of course.
Turns out forcing cone has a steeper “cone part’ and then a leading “pilot area” just before the rifling begins.
Chamber AOL (from base of rim/breechface to rifling): 112 mm
Chamber length (from base of rim to beginning of forcing cone: 96mm (just shy of 3.75 inches).
Steep “Cone part” of forcing cone: 7mm
“Pilot area” of forcing cone: 9mm

Here are the pics of the chamber cast:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?209132-Test3-Hubel-FH-BlazingSabot-inspired-loads-and-pictures&p=2338792&viewfull=1#post2338792

Next batch of loads similar to above, plus extra filler wads as required to make the 3.5’ length, but in 3.5” RMC brass cases where possible, with OAL to engage rifling as described here:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?207869-Test-of-Hubel-Sabot-and-other-ammo-with-pics&p=2330155&viewfull=1#post2330155

More later...

[bikerbeans]

C-

Where did you hide the target pics?

BB

[cpileri]

Here they come:
Load: 12ga 3.5” hubel sabot
Power Category: FH
Velocity and pressure: ?unknown? (but 55gr Steel gives ~2000fps)
Hull: 3.5” Rocky Mtn Ctg brass
Primer: 209-A
Powder & Charge: 56gr A.Steel
Wad column: x12x, cork/felt to height, tap in Hubel Sabot (very snug fit)
Load: Hubel Sabot loaded w 440gr lead .578 minie ball
Overshot (if any) & Crimp: none
Notes: looking for accuracy w the 3.5” chamber, hoping matching hull length will help w that. Will take these out to 50yds, too. These are a really tight hull fit in the RMC brass, no crimping needed. In fact, even though its hard, load the slug into the sabot first, then tap into hull. Otherwise I had a tough time getting the minie ball to seat into bottom of sabot. THESE ARE A WINNER AT 50yds. Pics are of target and the recovered sabots: one sabot opened perfectly, one had slightly curled in petal. One, which was seated deep (to care mouth rim) got severely mangled and twisted. From now on, seat these OUT far , about halfway.
84326

[cpileri]

The above pic looks big, but its about a 3 inch group at 50yds; in the rain.
Here are the recovered sabot:
84327

[cpileri]

Load: 12ga Greg 1043
Power Category: normal
Velocity and pressure: 1050fps/10.2Kpsi
Hull: Fio 3.5”
Primer: Fio 616
Powder & Charge: 54gr IMR 4227
Wad column: x12x, 3/32cork, .17Hard Nitro Card
Load: 1043gr hardcast lead slug, alox lubed, rolled in hBN
Overshot (if any) & Crimp: roll
Notes: this is not a new load, except the change to 3.5” hull; but this test will be out at 50 yds. Its already my ‘go to’ load for 30yds. Shot great, no pain at all in this big weighted gun. Accuracy at 50 yds ~ 3-4in. Love these. My gun loves fullbore slugs, as evidenced by the failure of the sabots (except the Hubels, for whatever reason) to group.
84328

[cpileri]

Load: 12ga Greg 880 (3-4 variations *)
Power Category: Barely From H_ll (*)
Velocity and pressure: 47gr Lil’Gun= 1320fps/13.3Kpsi, 70gr 4227=1419fps/14.2Kpsi, 63gr 4759=1500fps/15.2Kpsi
Hull: Fed 3”
Primer: Fed 209-A
Powder & Charge: 3 tested: 47gr Lil’Gun, 60gr and 62gr 4759
Wad column: x12x, cork, hard NC
Load: 880gr HC lead slug
Overshot (if any) & Crimp: roll
Notes: I just wonder what the 1500fps load on this will be like. That’s just shy of 4400fpe! I just have to try it. (*) A “normal” load w this slug and components would be 28.5gr Longshot= 1054fps/8.3Kpsi. The 47gr Lil’gun and 60gr and 62gr 4759 loads crimped well w Precision Reloading roll crimper. I really need a roll crimper with a hollowed out middle to be able to load more pointy slugs (especially see 20ga notes). These all shot AWESOME!! The LilGun load was snappier, but no discomfort at all.
84329

[cpileri]

the 880 w 62gr powder, all shot this good. Spot on and ~1in at 50yds!!!
84330

[cpileri]

and the 880s w Lil Gun
84331

[cpileri]

Load: 12ga Greg “glued” CSD wad
Power Category: Barely From H_ll
Velocity and pressure: 50gr-57.5gr Lil’Gun (57.5gr Lil’Gun=1625fps/14.8Kpsi)
Hull: Fio 3”
Primer: Fio 616
Powder & Charge: 51.6gr Lil’Gun
Wad column: CSD wad (unslit) w/ 32ga .125NC in bottom of cup, then 2x20ga .25” fiber under slug. All components glued together
Load: 625gr slug (~16ga diameter), knurled to grip wad cup, also glued in
Overshot (if any) & Crimp: roll
Notes: I tried this one in a prior test and had a wad-slug separation resulting in a flier. I spoke to Greg, who suggested rolling the slugs on a rough file to knurl the sides; I added the glue. These nice flat tipped (wide meplat) slugs crimped well w/ 51.6gr Lil’gun and the PR roll crimper. I dunno, I guess these just aren’t going to be the load for my gun. Too bad, cuz it’s a neat slug, heavy and hard. Just cant get a good group in my USH.
target posted. Some were clean misses at 50yds.
i am going to keep trying w these, as they are neat slugs and other shooters are getting good accuracy w these in other guns.
84333

[cpileri]

Load: 12ga BPI 1&3/8oz DGS slug
Power Category: normal
Velocity and pressure: 40gr Steel (1555fps/9.6kpsi)
Hull: Fio 3.5”
Primer: 209-A
Powder & Charge: 45gr Steel
Wad column: factory attached wad OR same height achieved w x12x,1/8”cork, 2x1/3” fiber filler,1/4”HCW
Load: 1&3/8oz DGS thunder slug (Guilandi style)
Overshot (if any) & Crimp: roll
Notes: Both factory wad and alternate wad column crimped well w PR roll crimper, as long as enough hull is left for the crimp, otherwise the somewhat pointy shape of the slug would beg me to get a roll crimper w a hollowed out middle. Very impressed w the group here, and the Steel powder burned clean, much cleaner than IMR 4227 or even Blue Dot.
84332
Approx 1.5-2in group at 50yds.

[cpileri]

Load: 12ga THUG slug
Power Category: Normal
Velocity and pressure: unknown, but normal (other slug loads equivalent more than within SAAMI)
Hull: Fed 3”
Primer: 209-A
Powder & Charge: 40gr Blue Dot
Wad column: factory attached wad OR same height achieved w x12x,1/8 cork, 1x1/2”fiber wad, HCW, NC
Load: 1&1/8oz THUG (brenneke style) slug
Overshot (if any) & Crimp: roll
Notes: With the nice flat meplat, these roll crimped easily. Shot well to. I recovered on lsug, and estimate its performance against dirt and rocks as being BHN hardness at least 15.
84334

[cpileri]

Just for fun, these are the DDupleks slugs, the Latvian ammo.
84335

[cpileri]

20ga Loads: used the Savage in all except once where noted below. The gun shoots high. And is not really intended as a slug gun. I think I am going to file the notch deeper in the rear sight to get these down lower. Some loads showed potential, others…well, read the notes.

Load: 20ga DGS 2.75” (5+ variations)
Power Category: normal
Velocity and pressure: unknown (*)Herco (21gr=1400fps/10.1kpsi)
Hull: Fio 2.75”
Primer: Fio 616
Powder & Charge: 20gr Herco
Wad column: attached to DGS slug by factory
Load: 7/8oz (382gr) DGS slug
Overshot (if any) & Crimp: roll
Notes: (*) according to BPI anyway. Other loads include: Blue Dot 27gr (=1500fps), IMR 4756 (23gr=1350fps, 30gr=1510fps), 25gr Longshot=1530fps/10.5kpsi, 28gr longshot=1625fps/11.1kpsi and Herco (21gr=1400fps/10.1kpsi). These were easy to shoot. High of course.
84336

[cpileri]

Load: 20ga Ajay 3” (several variations)
Power Category: Blazing
Velocity and pressure: 31.6gr Steel=1523fps, 38.5gr 2400=1282fps/39.5gr 2400=1353fps, Blue dot:23-23.6gr=1069-1117fps AND (again blue dot:) 33-33.5gr=1491fps-1515fps, 4759: 58.6gr=1705fps (all velocities from 455-465gr slugs, so consider that when I test w 415gr slugs but same powder charge as Ajay used in 450+’s)
Hull: Fio 3”
Primer: 209-A
Powder & Charge: 31.6gr Steel, 38.5gr-39.5gr 2400, Blue dot:23-23.6gr AND 33-33.5gr, 4759: 58.6gr
Wad column: 28ga HCW into base of wad (over powder, if you will), then Commander or CSD wad depending on slug, 28ga HCW’s to raise slug to height
Load: 450gr .570minie ball in Commander wad, or 415gr .535 minie in CSD wad
Overshot (if any) & Crimp: fold
Notes: I am short on 3” 20ga hulls, so will test as many of these variations as I can. All these spitzer (‘pointy’) nosed slugs were severely deformed by my roll crimping efforts. I tried placing a spacer and pushing reeeeeally hard to no avail. I need a roll crimper w a hollow middle to allow proper spitzer loading w roll crimps. I reinforced the crimps, such as they were, w glue. Just to hold the slug down near the powder. Way too blazing for my guns. First shot in the savage knocked front handguard off the barrel latch, and opened the action spontaneously. One more time: same thing, and now the handguard is loose a little. Ok, try the H&R Pardner, blew open action and ejected the hull- hey, I made an auto ejector. Ok, these are too hot for these actions. I need a new, stronger 20ga (likely a savage 220 bolt). Group was tight, though high, for what its worth; esp from a smoothebore at 50yds!
84337

[cpileri]

So the Ajay loads have group potential, just not in these cheap guns. Which, to be fair, were never meant to be slug guns. Here are the primers from these auto-ejecting loads;
84338

[cpileri]

Load: 20ga Hogtamer’s original
Power Category: normal
Velocity and pressure: unknown, but 29gr longshot w 382gr slug gives 1650fps/11.5kpsi; and Ajay tested a .575rb w 33.5gr Longshot for 1831fps; so this is within normal
Hull: 2.75”
Primer: 209
Powder & Charge: 31gr longshot
Wad column: .125HCW over powder, then (obsolete “lage” wad) which has a plastic cage in the cup to support the ball
Load: .570 lead round ball (279gr)
Overshot (if any) & Crimp: roll or fold
Notes: Lage wads, generously donated by Hogtamer. See below for my attempt to replicate any success this load may have w available components. Pretty snappy load actually, says my shoulder.
84339

[cpileri]

Load: 20ga Hogtamer’s modified (2 variations)
Power Category: normal
Velocity and pressure: unknown as described above
Hull: 2.75”
Primer: 209
Powder & Charge: 31gr Longshot
Wad column: variation 1: 28ga HCW into bottom of Lage wad (over powder), otherwise no changes; or
Var 2: 28ga HCW in bottom of wad (overpowder), commander wad, 28ga HCWs to raise ball
Load: .570rb
Overshot (if any) & Crimp: roll or fold
Notes: still snappy. Not sure any improvement in accuracy over the Lage wad.
84340

[cpileri]

Load: 20ga THUG slug
Power Category: unknown, but normal
Velocity and pressure: unknown, (22gr Blue Dot propels 1oz shot 1150-1200fps/9.5-11.1kpsi)
Hull: mixed straight wall 2.75”
Primer: fio 616
Powder & Charge: 22ga Blue Dot
Wad column: factory attached wad OR same height achieved w x20x,1/4cork,1xfelt,NC
Load: 7/8oz THUG (brenneke style) slug
Overshot (if any) & Crimp: roll and fold
Notes: Note, although they roll crimp well, this load wad column (both factory and my alternate) is just too long for the FOLD crimp. Need to reduce by 1/8”-to-1/4” if fold crimping. Easier on shoulder than I expected.
84341

[cpileri]

Load: 20ga TSS heavyweight
Power Category: normal
Velocity and pressure: confidential (*)
Hull: federal 3”
Primer: Fed 209-A
Powder & Charge: confidential (*)
Wad column: Confidential(*)
Load: 1.5oz of super dense tungsten shot
Overshot (if any) & Crimp: OSC, roll
Notes: this was basically a copy of Federal’s heavyweight turkey load, using 1.5oz of dense tungsten no.9 shot. Although I promised not to release the load data, if you go to the link for the Helarco wads posted in this forum, (*)the load data there is right in the ballpark. One pellet hit square in the neck at 30yds. With a tighter choke (these guns are cylinder bore), this is a viable turkey load. Sorry at all the secrecy, but I’m half-Sicilian, so I KNOW the importance of keeping a secret. If anyone gives me info they want to keep tight, it will be kept tight.
84342

(*)here http://www.kammeret.no/bilder/albums/userpics/11108/VP92_data.pdf

[cpileri]

And for fun, a factory federal Tru-ball load w hBN tapped into the open space near the crimp. Why not, right?
84345

[cpileri]

So, all in all, the 20ga was somewhat disappointing: there is something just so satisfying about HITTING what you aim at. but some of these showed definite potential if i can lower my POI by deepening the rear sight notch.
Or by getting another 20ga- someday soon.
The 12ga was a pleasure as always. Those 880's w a 1 inch touchign group were superb. Very fun!
i know i left off information, so please let me knwo what you think or ask any questions!
C-

[Hogtamer]

I found best results w/the 20 ga loads out of IC barrel. And of course the 12's were out of rifled barrel. Best hold off those boomer 12 loads Carl, we like having you around...[smilie=l:

[cpileri]

I still think the 570-cal rb in a wad is the way to go w these 20ga smoothies, just need to find the best combo.i.e. wads and card fillers to go w the ball. i do have some .60 and .610 balls, so may try those too.
C-

[cpileri]

Here are a few recovered components, collection was limited as i was standing in the rain and well, just not interested as i would have otherwise been. I'll get more later on a dry day.
From left to right, more or less: a few cork and felt wads, one of the VP92 wads from the tunsgten 20ga load, a wad from the federal truball; then a 20ga brenneke slug w wads still screwed into base, behind that a mylar wrap from the tungsten load. Next is a THUG slug and behind it is a hull from the Latvian ammo. Then one of the CSD wads w rifling present and next to it one of the 16ga slugs that went inside it. Last is a recovered 1043gr slug.
84386

[Greg5278]

Carl, how about using the .610" Ball and teflon patching it to bore Diameter?
Greg

[jmort]

Nice thread. I just re-read it from top to bottom twice. Lot of good info. In fact nothing but good info, no "filler." I'm not seeing such good information anywhere else but here. Thanks

[cpileri]

I do have some, and was thinking abt that. Teflon plumbers tape, a mylar wrap, or paper patch. Woudl eithe rpunch a hole in a 20ga hard card or use Cream Of Wheat under the ball for support.

Yes, lots of ideas to get these round balls to work.

Which is too bad, since the heavier (400+gr) conical slugs shot the tightest group even though they disassembled my guns spontaneously (not catastrophically, though). I'd love to use them, but i think either a custom Ithaca or the Savage 220 is the 20ga of choice for heavier slugs.

I did file the rear notch, as described, and painted the exposed aluminum black again, so hopefully I cn get these to shoot POA. That will be Test 6.
C-