Which would you go with? 1:48" or 1:60"? For round ball?

[Dthunter]

Hi guys!

I want to shoot round balls primarily. Have any of you guys compared accuracy differences between the twist rates?
I know the theories state that a slower twist is supposed to be better for a round ball.

The T/C hawken has a 1:48" twist rate.
And the Lyman Great Plains Rifle has a 1:60" twist rate.

What do you think of these two rifles?

What other manufacuters out there that produce good muzzleloaders at an affordable price.
My idea of affordable is around $800.00.

Is there a great difference in potential accuracy, or is it more "theoretical" at best?

I tend to push accuracy as much as possible. Its my nature I guess. I would like to get sub 2" groups at 100 regularily or better.

I like the thoughts of the Hawken twist rate being suitable for conicals as well, but I have inline muzzleloaders I normally use for those bullets. Whats your thoughts on this?

I have hunted with inline muzzleloaders for more than 20 years, but havent explored the round ball shooters yet. I think it could be fun.

Thankyou for your input guys!

[johnson1942]

the deer creek, i think that was their name, made .50/s in 1/60 twist and they would take any charge and always cut center at 100 yards. i had 3 of them. he told me by phone it was the best twist for the .50. i found the 1/72 twist for .50/s worked well but harder to find the right load. ive beem told by eastern us shooters that 1/56 works very well for .50/s. if your talking .45 1/48 to 1/56 or 60 works well. the .45 seems easier to work up a load on. .58 works very well with 1/72. 66 works for the .54.if you want a custom barrel made reasonable and done right give the oregon barrel co. a try. they made a .50 in 1/28 for me that i shoot a cast bullet in 36 inches long. and when you tell them .50 thats what it came out right on .50. at first i was unsure of their leaded steel barrels but the gun is so reliably accurate im sold on their barrels. good luck in your quest and choose carefully and have fun.

[GARD72977]

I am no expert by any means but from my research the slower the twist the more powder it takes to get accuracy. Im not sure if one tiwst is more accurate than another but if you are wanting power for hunting or knocking down steel targets then the slower twist should be flatter and have more knockdown with the most accurate load.

[SamTexas49]

Either twist will work, more can depend on the depth of the rifling to better grab the patch material.

[mooman76]

If you think you might want to shoot conicals, go with 1/48 but if you know you want RBs only go with the 1/60. 1/48 will do both but it's more or less a compromise. won't shoot either best but will shoot both reasonably well or as good as most can shoot anyway.

[Anonym]

Mooman said it. The 1:60 will really shoot the roundballs best, but may not stabilize a heavier conical. The 1:48 was a compromise and will shoot both okay, but aren't necessarily the best for either.

My slow twist 50 cal Green Mountain LOVES roundball. Never tried conicals yet. My slow twist 54 cal Sharon also LOVES roundball, but is no slouch with maxiballs either. I would go slow for the best roundball and see which conical works as well. Might have to go with a l8ghter conical, but worth it if it's primarily a roundball shooter.

[waksupi]

1-60, and 1-66 are my preferred round ball twists.

[Rattus58]

Hi guys!

I want to shoot round balls primarily. Have any of you guys compared accuracy differences between the twist rates?
I know the theories state that a slower twist is supposed to be better for a round ball.

The T/C hawken has a 1:48" twist rate.
And the Lyman Great Plains Rifle has a 1:60" twist rate.

What do you think of these two rifles?

What other manufacuters out there that produce good muzzleloaders at an affordable price.
My idea of affordable is around $800.00.

Is there a great difference in potential accuracy, or is it more "theoretical" at best?

I tend to push accuracy as much as possible. Its my nature I guess. I would like to get sub 2" groups at 100 regularily or better.

I like the thoughts of the Hawken twist rate being suitable for conicals as well, but I have inline muzzleloaders I normally use for those bullets. Whats your thoughts on this?

I have hunted with inline muzzleloaders for more than 20 years, but havent explored the round ball shooters yet. I think it could be fun.

Thankyou for your input guys!

I'm finding that 1-70 twist is much more accurate than 1-48 in my 58's especially. Smaller diameter bore I think that 1-48 might work and especially with shorter barrels in all cases that I have experienced. I can suggest that if you are going to use a round ball, you use an over powder wad before loading the patched ball if you want absolute accuracy all the time... :grin:

[Whiterabbit]

the slower the better, for me. I want to hunt wit mine, so the more velocity I need to find the sweet spot, the better!

[357mags]

I've got an old Renegade 54cal, 1:48"twist that loves round ball!

[johnson1942]

rattus 58: what kind of wad are talking about because i want to try it. felt or fiber or poly? i have a good rounball .45 but you may even emprove it. please reply, thanks beforehand.

[Rattus58]

rattus 58: what kind of wad are talking about because i want to try it. felt or fiber or poly? i have a good rounball .45 but you may even emprove it. please reply, thanks beforehand.I use felt wads for my roundballs now but I've used or started with walters card wads that I use with my conicals. It's probably just my imagination working overtime, but I believe a felt wad better than the hard card wad with the round ball. Accuracy dramatically improved with my 58 caliber Investarms when I started using over powder wads at the suggestion of some old geezer who was watching me shoot one day while I was having problems with loads.

[johnson1942]

thanks, i have a good .45 cutter that fits my swageing press. now i have to find some right diam. felt. thanks again

[Rattus58]

thanks, i have a good .45 cutter that fits my swageing press. now i have to find some right diam. felt. thanks again:grin: I be thinking you have the diameter with the cutter... I'm thinking about getting a cutter for my 41, 54, and 58's. I need to learn a little more about felt... you can find it all over the place... :grin:

[fouronesix]

The twist rate for PRB is truly a $64k question. If you think about it, a more or less perfect sphere really can't go aerodynamically unstable. I think the idea with them is shot to shot consistency. As they leave the muzzle they need to have a little bit of spin to maintain the shot to shot consistency of flight and ideally that spin is plumb the axis of flight. Volumes have been written and 1000s of hours spent discussing the subject.

My theory about PRBs is that spin rate has less to do with accuracy while shot to shot internal ballistic consistency has more to do with it. Patch tears or leaks differently shot to shot, faster twist rifling may put more stress on the patch thus leading to inconsistency of patch performance, groove depth may play a role, number of grooves may play a role and so on.

That doesn't mean that a faster than "normal" twist can't shoot PRBs accurately or that shallow grooved bores can't shoot accurately. Some of the best PRB groups I've ever shot with a 45 cal ML have been out of a 48" twist bore. But I have shot some cruddy groups also. The faster than "normal" twist may require EVERYTHING be just right. Some of the best PRB groups I've ever shot in a 54 cal ML with a 66" twist have been out of a fairly shallow groove bore. But I've never shot really cruddy groups out of the shallow groove 66" twist bore. Maybe that indicates the slower twist is a little less critical for slight load variations or variations in fouling, in other words a little more forgiving.

One other generality I've found (and it may be just that, an unsubstantiated generality) is that within a reasonable range, the more grooves the better for accuracy or at least fairly predictable and good accuracy- with 5,6,7 or 8 grooves working better than 3 or 4 grooves in all calibers from 45 through 58. Not sure exactly why that is.

And my "Unified Theory of PRB Relativity" would go something like:
If you want to shoot long shot strings with reasonable accuracy without cleaning after every shot- go with a slightly slower twist and a slightly looser bore fit. For ultimate accuracy- go with a slightly faster twist, clean between shots, use a tighter fit that may require a short starter and maybe even add an overpowder felt wad.

Hah, if it were only that simple!

[johnson1942]

the very best grouping shot after shot roundball gun was one i cleaned up and made look nice belonged to a dad of a friend of mine. it was a cabellas thompson half stock copy. it was .45 cal and i wish i knew the twist. it had grooves only about 4 thousands deep and get this 12 lands and grooves equal space, same width for lands and groove. i just used a pillow ticking patch and .445 roundball. back then it was pyrodox. at 100 yards it was one tight group with no flyers. by the way does any one know a barrel maker who does 12 lands and 12 grooves? ive always wanted to make a barrel like that, could never find any one to do it. their was a johnson barrel co. 25 years ago and he told me he made 2 barrels for a muzzle loader shooter that had 40 lands and grooves about 3 thousands deep and he said the shooter told him it was very accurate. he closed his doors years ago and went to work for a custom rifle make in rapid city. has any one else had experience with a 12 groove barrel? thanks before hand. oh yes i dont remember the name of the manufacture on the gun. i just know it came from cabellas and looked like a thompson.

[waksupi]

the slower the better, for me. I want to hunt wit mine, so the more velocity I need to find the sweet spot, the better!

Man, do I have a rifle you need to own. 1-120 Forsyth rifling. Takes around 130 gr. 3F to make it start to perform, and is the best long range RB rifle I have. Problem is, I just don't care for this particular rifle!

[StrawHat]

Man, do I have a rifle you need to own. 1-120 Forsyth rifling. Takes around 130 gr. 3F to make it start to perform, and is the best long range RB rifle I have. Problem is, I just don't care for this particular rifle!


I have a 45 caliber barrel that is rifled 1 turn in 120 inches. Im getting the necessary parts to build an English Sporting Rifle. The research I have done indicates loads between 120 and 200 grains of powder for the patched round ball.

The English have used slow twist barrel for Express type rifles for many years. It seems they wanted to extend the point blank range of their hunting rifles during the percussion era.

[Pb2au]

I own a Lyman Great Plains in 50, with the 1/60 twist and will testify to its accuracy with a patched round ball. There is a great amount of value for the price in that rifle.
It is always amusing to out shoot the commandos at the range with "LRP" bolt guns.
Plus it looks quite nice to boot.

[Hanshi]

Definitely for .50 and above the twists slower than 1-48" are to be preferred. 1-60" to 66" or thereabouts does fine. 1-48" usually does too but notice I said "usually". A .45 works well with 1-48" to 1-56" but .40 and below do very well with 1-48" twists. Of course any given barrel can easily prove the exception.

[Rattus58]

More than 90gr for a 45cal RB is just ridiculous. 120gr-180gr is where a .62cal slow twist should be. Especially since he'd likely need a 4 foot barrel to burn all the powder ... :grin:

[OverMax]

The Lyman series of rifles are indeed more historically correct verses the Thompson I would have to say. But the one perk that a Thompson Hawken/Renegade owner (had) was the availability of a after-market drop-in-barrel from Green Mountain Barrels. But Green Mountain has discontinued or slowed production of their Thompson traditional barrel selection recently. {so that perk is no longer.} And its now said Thompson manufacturing has or is about too discontinue their manufacturing of Traditional rifles altogether. Although I own a few T/C Traditional rifles and dearly like each of mine. Currently I would advise those looking to shoot a side hammer percussion or flint rifle. Perhaps its best to consider a Lyman for the time being. Just to much controversy going on recently concerning Thompson /Center's traditional line of rifles as I see it. I personally would prefer buying American. Even if I have to pay a little more for the product. But concerning this issue. Looks like I may be turning to Lyman next time around or may have a rifle custom built instead. As far as twist rates on manufactured rifles. 1-60 or 1-72 twist is best for Patched Round ball only in 50-54 cal. 1-48 is a compromise barrel twist rate for Round ball and Conical both. (shoots both but with so, so, accuracy to be expected.) If you get into patch ball shooting. You'll love it so much you'll probably put those old inlines way back in the closet and forget about having them.

[waksupi]

More than 90gr for a 45cal RB is just ridiculous. 120gr-180gr is where a .62cal slow twist should be.

I suggest you find a copy of "The Sporting Rifle and It's Projectiles", by Forsyth. It's available free online. You may change your perception for ultra slow rifled barrels.

[Ohio Rusty]

I had a hawken that was 1 in 48 and wouldn't shoot a round ball for ****. I could hit a for sale sign in maybe 1 out of 5 shots !! When I loaded buffalo bore conicals, I kept them all in a target the size of a coffee cup. I would definitely go with 1 in 60 as the slower twist was designed for round ball shooting.
Ohio Rusty ><>

[PTS]

For the price range you are considering you should look at Pedersoli’s. I own the Kentucky flinter in .50 cal. 1 in 48 twist. Shoots roundballs and conicals just fine. Killed deer with both. Look at their “Frontier Series”. If you go with a 1 in 60 (or so) twist be aware that you could still shoot Buffalo Ball-ets or Hornady Ball-ets anyway. Instead of a 190 grain ball, you would have a 245 grain ball-et. No wadding or patching needed. The “skirt” obturates into the rifling upon ignition of the charge. Quicker and easier loading than a ball.

[irishtoo]

if your committed to round ball the slower twist is advised, but i have a recent lyman gpr in .54. i bought it after reading many glowing reviews and it was lefthanded. i am very much NOT impressed. internal lock parts were rough and bent. i had to replace the fly and rebuild the lock. i would consider a used older version or the t/c. i have no experience with t/c products. B.T.W i have shot a few deer with a simple lead round ball and the damage is always impressive. all pass thru no recovered balls. good luck to you irishtoo

[OnHoPr]

The slower twist rates have always been advisable for the RB. But, if you ever wanted to shoot a conical then the 1 in 48" has been advisable with still good accuracy with the RB. Two inches at a 100 yards is real good shooting with the MZL, so that's good for hunting and probably competition. Idahoron uses a fast twist rate for his conicals and gets real good accuracy. With my TC 50/209 and 90 gr of Pdex Sel with a 1 in 28", I have shot a number one ragged hole groups at 50 yards with it using the PRB. I have never tested at 100 yards on paper though with that load to see if spin blew the group, but have gone hunting for deer with confidence to hit one at a hundred yards.

[hylander]

T/C hawken has a 1:48" twist rate.
Lyman Great Plains Rifle has a 1:60" twist rate

I have had both of these rifles in .50 cal., shooting BP for about 20yrs now.
The Lyman is hands down the best rifle for .50 cal and the best rifle period.
The Lyman is a quality built rifle, the T/C is built well but with a 1:48 it shoots RB and conicals but neither with
any great accuracy.
I would choose another Lyman Great Plains over any BP rifle.
For .50 Cal and RB you most definitely want a 1:60 or 1:66 twist.
This Lyman GP will get you less than 2" @ 100yds if you can shoot Irons that well.
However if you want to shoot conicals accurately you will need around a 1:28 to 1:32 twist, anything slower will not have good accuracy and the 1:60 will be pray and spray.

[Old Scribe]

The 1/60 twist is best for shooting RB. My 38" Colrain barrel loves 65 grains of 3f and will put a 2" pattern at 100 yards with ease, tho' the not-head behind the rifle doesn't always do it.

[HARRYMPOPE]

my .50 1-32 Lyman GP Hunter shoots patched ball very well.Not as good as a pure target rifle but 1"-1.5" at 50 yards with peeps.i have shot up to 90g of FFF(or Pyro-P) with 3"-3-1/2" grouping for 10 shots at 100 yards a couple times.The rifling is fairly deep and that is a greater factor as said earlier in the thread.

[10 ga]

1-60, and 1-66 are my preferred round ball twists.

What he said! :goodpost: Been there and ML shot RB, sabots and conicals out of all kinds of twist, ftom 1/72 to 1/20. For 50 cal ML the 1/60 to 1/66 twist is the best for RB. For bigger guns, 54 to 69, the 1/72 is best for RB. For 45 cal and smaller the faster 1/48 is better for RB. Hundred of years of experience by ML shooters aint wrong!

10 ga

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

Jacob & Samuel Hawken used 1:48" twist in their 45-50-54 caliber rifles as a rule. They also cut the rifling about .010"-012" deep. I base this statement on having handled all their old equipment when it came out of Gemmer's attic in 1968. The Hawken Shop in StL owned it for about forty years or so, before it was sold and shipped to WA.

[Hickory]

I'll answer the question in the subject line.
I'd go with the 1-66 twist and, I'd use it in a flintlock.

The one thing I hated about the evolution of muzzleloading was the inline.
A flintlock is not a handicap as some believe. All you need to remember is to keep your powder dry.

A flintlock can teach a person a lot of life lessons.
Like, you need to pay attention to details.
Is the inside of the barrel clean and dry?
Is the flash hole clear?
Is the flint sharp & at the proper angle?
Is the frizzen clean, dry and hard enough to produce the right amount of spark?
Is the pan clean, dry and charged?

Life is like a flintlock, when attention is paid to the details, it works every time.
When your not paying attention, you miss out on the big one.

[Lead Fred]

I want to shoot round balls primarily. Have any of you guys compared accuracy differences between the twist rates?

What do you think of these two rifles?

What other manufacuters out there that produce good muzzleloaders at an affordable price.
My idea of affordable is around $800.00.


For round ball, 1/60 to 1/66 are best hands down. 1/48 is a go between round ball & conicals.
As far as which rifle, third world production gun are NOT the way to go.

http://www.flintlocks.com/

For 800 smackers get one of Jim's kits. Just his lock & barrels are so much better than any production gun.

My 42 inch swamped Rice barrel has so much high tech in it, Id fill a page of text just telling you about them.
I will say it pushes a 45 cal ball 2033fps, which is faster than half the smokeless rifles I own.

I use Jim's Late Ketland lock. It is boasted as the fastest flintlock made. I had ole man Rice make it even faster.

84980