sabots

[snoopy]

Ok, so I went to walmart yesterday and bought some j thingies to shoot in my new [to me] inline. Now, according to some advice that I got on here, with the sabot, I can shoot .451 rb, for which I have a mold. I checked the j thingy diameter and this will work. What I also found was that 2 rb will fit in the sabot, protruding slightly past the end of the plastic. Now the wheels are turning, I am sure someone has tried this, any reccomendations? Do I need any kind of wad under the sabot or just ram it down on the powder? Wanna shoot this today if weather permits, at least with the j thingies. Thanks in advance.

[shredder]

My concern would be if the sabot held the RB firmly enough. If it comes loose in the barell you could be in for a nasty time. 2 balls is almost a guarantee that one will come loose and be an obstruction just ahead of the other. Nothing good will come of it.

My suggestion, which you are free to ignore,is to aboandon the 2 ball idea and stick to bullets designed to be held in that particular sabot. Fingers are nice to have.

[snoopy]

Definitely not gonna try it without some input from someone who has success doing it. Am I right about just ramming it home on top of the powder, no wad or patch needed?

[dondiego]

They are called jacketed bullets.

[Zymurgy50]

Just seat the sabot on top of the powder to begin. If accuracy is not up to snuff then try a felt or card wad on top of the powder.
If you want to try pure lead slugs either cast a .45 from pure lead or get some 45 maxi balls to use in the sabot.

[johnson1942]

if your going to hunt go back to walmart and get a couple of packs of sabots with bullets in them, they are ment for your most likely 1/28 twist inline. dont ram anything on your powder they only ram and tamp in the movies. set it on the powder but dont ram it. also try those power belts wallmart offers. dont put any thing between sabots or power belts. also no matter what kind of powder you use run one quite damp cotton patch down your barrel followed by two dry ones to clean your barrel between shots. it will be easier to load and more accurate. the crees used to load 3 patched balls ontop of each other when they went on a raid against the blackfoot as at close range it was deadly in a fight. you dont want a loose ball in your barrel, you would be lucky if you only bulge it but with modern steel it isnt usually a bulge it comes apart in splinters. learn all you can about muzzleloaders and have a lot of safe fun.

[snoopy]

The gun is 1/32 twist, and since I need a mold for .45 auto, can anybody recomend a style that will work reliably in my pistol and give decent performance in this application. I'm all about dual purpose if at all possible since I don't get to shoot as much as I'd like

[johnson1942]

even better, the 1/32 twist is made perfectly for sabots and a 250 grain .451 o.452 pistol bullets. round nose, square nose it wont make any diff. they will all shoot in that gun. should be a tack driver. i really like mmp sabots and you can buy them in bulk off of the internet but im sure their are other brands that shoot well. im sure you got your self a shooter.

[snoopy]

Well, didn't get to shoot today. But!, Did trade for another ML, this is getting nuts! Got a CVA stalker carbine in .50 cal. Its funny, I originally wanted a .45cal ml and now I've ended up w/2.50's and a .54..... I hope I'm not contagious

[w0fms]

My two older boys (now 11 and 12, but will be 12 and 13 by the competition time) are going to do the Iowa YHEC, so I bought a cheap CVA Wolf for practice. I have to admit, the goal is relatively close range on paper (25-100yd) and for me, inexpensive practice and paper punching.

I decided, hell, I'd try my Range Scrap/WW mixed "Recluse" 45-45-10 lubed, 240-ish gr. actual Lee 452-230-2R's (and that one I only have in a 2-cavity $20 mold) for .45 ACP in some Midway closeout Hornady Sabots. Went with 777 and a light load for paper.. settled on 70 gr of 777. After a couple of shots to adjust the sights -- well elevation only as I didn't bring the jeweler's sized screwdriver needed for windage on that Wolf -- and doing Kentucky windage to compensate ... I managed offhand, open sights not correctly adjusted for windage with it getting dark out, to put two right above touching the bulls eye touching each other-- almost hole in hole-- horizontally at 25 yds. Okay, it was only at 25 yds.. but it was my 6th and 7th shot ever from a muzzleloader.

What I am saying is that for practice ammo that mold in the smooth sabots in my cheap gun is all accurate as get go. I figured that these muzzleloaders would be tedious and inaccurate. But that's not the case.

A good quality HP .452 cal jacketed in that same sabot likely would rock, especially at the 90-100 gr of 777 load. Could I take a deer even with the "2R" roundball and light load? Probably. A cast HP conical in that sabot would also likely rock.

I figured it wouldn't work worth squat. But it did and that load is light enough for my 12 year old (the smaller one of the two.. they are adopted, and he's short the poor kid... his brother is huge by comparison at a year younger)... and it was far more accurate than the .490 patched round balls the instructors had them use (with even a lighter load of Pyrodex in a Thompson Center). Needless to say, I was extremely happy and surprised and see casting for Muzzleloaders specifically to eventually become a hobby of mine. It was far more fun and accurate than I ever expected it to be. I have to admit, that cloud of smoke is cool and addictive as well. Sending a pistol bullet downrange at 2x+ pistol speed and having it be more accurate... with black powder (substitute) as the propellent is pretty cool too..

But if you want to experiment with cast in Sabots, I can tell you the $20 mold Lee 452-230-2R's worked fine for accuracy at 70-80 gr of 777 in the Hornady sabot which seems similar to the MMP ones. I'd find a pistol bullet mold more appropriate for hunting, use softer lead for expansion and try it. I'm sure it would work fine. As for ball in a sabot... I can see where that could go wrong and I don't think the sabot would transfer the spin of the rifling of the ball. I suppose you could try it, but I'd work up from a light load...

[quilbilly]

You will have some experimenting to do. Each muzzleloader barrel seems to have a personality of its own with respect to sabots and lube. Some of my barrels have liked a bore greased after the sabot+boolit was seated. Others not. Some have liked a little lube on the sides of the sabot before seating. None have been accurate if any lube was in the cup of the sabot. All eventually were very accurate. One is so accurate at long ranges, it shoots better than I do so I named her Sweet Thing. Have fun!

[Wilkie]

The Lee .452-300 grain works great with harvester sabots over 100 grains Blackhorn in my gun.

[Lead melter]

Really all that is needed for those monster-sized whitetails [read as 100-200lbs] that reside in my neck of the woods is any 200-255 grain mold that will cast an honest .452" slug to fit in the sabot of choice. No lube needed if encased in that famous polymer sleeve.

However, each barrel is a bit different dimensionally, so the ability to size the boolit between .451" to .453" can be a boon. Sabots also vary in the petal dimensions, so measuring the petals and adding the diameter of the boolit in order to achieve a consistent projectile diameter will probably make your smokepole a better shooter. The key here is to be consistent with what you cram down its throat.

This all being said, I prefer to cast my M\L boolits of pure lead....it makes a nasty exit wound in whatever critter it hits. As to running the sabot\boolit combo at max velocity, well I never liked hot-rodding anything, so I personally keep my loads in the 70-80 grain 777 area.

Others may differ, but I don't believe there are different degrees of dead.

[w0fms]

I suspect that the 300 gr boolits would even be better. One thing I was going to try that I read if I had accuracy issues was wrapping the boolit with teflon pipe tape (in the direction opposite of the rifling) to get the diameter up 0.001-0.002" more if needed -- in a sabot, that would probably work fine if it came off with the sabot. It's an interesting problem, quite a bit different from centerfire pistol or rifle casting.. there are actually probably more valid options with muzzleloaders. Maybe I got lucky with my first try but I'm extremely pleased with the results.

[Lead melter]

The 300 grainers may in fact do a bit better, but it is possible that they may do worse in that particular rifle with the 1:32 twist rate. Each barrel has its own characteristics and some will not properly stabilize the boolit with that twist rate regardless of what Mr. Greenhill and his formula have to say on the matter. 'Tis better to have a bit more spin on the boolit than is needed than to have just barely enough to get by with. The Teflon tape idea could cause problems....after all, it is meant to seal leaks and you do want a good blood trail don't you. Har-har!

[snoopy]

Well, thanks again for all the info. Did get to shoot the other day, got 2in group with 80gr of 777 at 30 yd/ with the 240gr sabots. The 452 230 was the mold I had in the back of my mind for plinking. I think I probably could have done a little better with the gun if I'd had more time to experiment.

[OnHoPr]

With that 777 wet/dry patch after every shot. Seat the sabot/boolit combo with the same pressure (I used about 10 - 15 lbs to make sure the boolit is seated). Test in 5 gr increments with the powder. I didn't have any luck with 777 in my gun but others have had decent results (still could hit a deer with it), try different powders. Boolit/sabot combos can make a big difference, my gun prefers Harvester sabots. If that is the lee 452 230 if might have a touch to much of a bevel base for the sabot for accuracy. The 452 2281R, 252SWC, or 255RF would be easier on the sabot. When you get pass 90 gr you may need to stiffen your boolit pass Pb, (100 gr + powder 66/33 Pb/WW, 120 gr + 50/50 alloy to pure WW).

PLINKING!? If you hit a deer with one of those with 80 gr + to a hundred yards or so and 100 gr + to plus way pass a 100 yards you won't consider them plinkers anymore.

[snoopy]

OnHoPr, I know that may have came out strange, Plinking. I do like to hunt but I like to shoot more. I really need to make mold and accessory purchases wisely so I was looking for one that would feed good in my .45 pistol as well, hence plinking.I'm not a big fan of swc in 45auto although I know many have used them with satisfaction. Definitely gonna do some more experimenting,love that. AND Thanks again leadmelter, wOfms and everyone else!

[Wilkie]

I am having good luck with the Lee 230 grain TC in my ML. I use the harvester sabots designed for less than 300 grains. I am using 80 grains of Blackhorn 209. Makes for a fun "plinking" load. I also use the same bullet in my .45 pistol and my .45 Hipoint carbine. I have used this bullet in all sorts of different pistols without feeding issues.

[snoopy]

871438714287141Ok, here are some pics. Got to shoot the cva stalker carbine today, and I am very pleased! I know this is not very impressive to some, but being very new to mzloading and after a VERY long hiatus to shooting in general I am very happy with this gun. When I traded for it I had to work very hard on the barrel, very rusty. Got the lee 230 tc mold and used the sabot sleeves from wallyworld, tell me what you think and dont worry I have thick skin, lol! I did roll the loaded sabots around a little in the pan lube, not necessary, but it made me feel better, I dont get to shoot much so the flyers are self explanatory, ie flinch. The 25 yd group was w/o glasses, but I had to put them on at 50.87140 The archery target is my rest.:smile:

[mooman76]

Not bad at all. I've seen worse with people shooting modern rifles. You'll get better with a little practice. I couldn't get mine to shoot that good but I never tried any sabots.

[snoopy]

Thanks mooman, first time out with the gun and some of my first cast bullets. The 60 gr of powder was pleasant to shoot, I wish my eyes were better, maybe try 100yds. Maybe I'll get a rest for xmas haha. Hunting around here rarely calls for a shot past 50 and these bullets were putting some dents in my stop so I really don't see the need for anymore powder except for experimentation. Cant wait to get back home and do some more though the dog does'nt like it.

[rsrocket1]

Hello Snoopy,
I just bought a used CVA Optima Pro to tinker with muzzleloading. To minimize the cost of bullets, I tried using my TL452-230-TC's from my 1911 in TC sabots. To minimize the learning curve in dealing with BP, I bought Blackhorn 209 and fired them off with my W209 primers that I buy by the thousands for skeet shooting. This is not for hunting, just plinking for now. This is the first time I've shot a ML rifle. This is only at 25 yards and even at this close range, my front fiber covers most of the bullseye dot so when I work out to 50 and 100 yards, I'll use a scope. Cleanup with the BH209 powder was no different than through my Remington 788 .308 rifle with a little more care in cleaning the breech plug.
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj96/rsrocket1/CVA%20Optima%20Pro/FirstOuting_Bullets_zps4b65d937.png (http://s270.photobucket.com/user/rsrocket1/media/CVA%20Optima%20Pro/FirstOuting_Bullets_zps4b65d937.png.html)
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj96/rsrocket1/CVA%20Optima%20Pro/FirstOuting_Targets_zps50ae4a74.png (http://s270.photobucket.com/user/rsrocket1/media/CVA%20Optima%20Pro/FirstOuting_Targets_zps50ae4a74.png.html)

[AABEN]

I have had good luck using 44 200 SWC with a sabot with 80 gr of pyrodex P with 209 primer. I drop all my bullets in water so they are around 12. have shot clean throw deers with them. I use the Hornady sabot's that I bought 25 years ago.

[snoopy]

Good shootin rocket, same bullets I am using. Gotta get some more sleeves though. I drop mine on a very moist towel.

[firefly1957]

Some years ago a company made a product called the poly patch it held a round ball in a plastic wad so the shooter did not need to use a cloth patch. Problems came when the ball came loose and wad not all the way down the barrel at firing some guns were ruined and the product was removed from the market.

[jimbull34]

Glad I found this thread. I shoot a CVA Optima, 50 cal and make my own BP and bullets. I swage the from a 45 acp case with lead that I have melted down and ran thru my dies and this is what I got: I put them into sabots from Graf Brothers supply and they will give you a 1" pattern at 50 yards and a close to 2" pattern at 100 yards. Works for me, oh they weigh out at 335g.87567