Bolt won't close on Ruger American .308 win

[turmech]

I loaded some 308 rounds tonight for a my new Ruger American rifle and could not get the bolt to close. I initially thought I had the OAL to long, but the bolt handle won't even close on just the resized brass. They are trimmed so I am pretty sure that is not it. LC, WCC military brass won't close at all. I have a few commercial pieces of brass that the bolt will close on but it is somewhat difficult and scratches the shoulder of the brass in one spot pretty bad. Either the rifle is defective or my dies I guess. I will attempt to pick up a box of factory loads to see if they work before contacting Ruger.

Is it possible that a 308 win rifles camber could be cut to not accept the 7.62 NATO and still be considered correct?
Am I missing something?

This may not be exactly the correct section for this post. Sorry guys, I guess I am just really frustrated and looking for the most traffic.

[tomme boy]

How are your dies set up? If the brass did not come from your rifle, they will need to be FL sized. Screw the die down against the shell holder when the ram is all the way up. Now, screw it 1/2 turn down farther. Size a piece of brass and see if it will chamber. If it does not, check this. Size a piece of brass, before you lower the ram and lower the brass out of the die, look to see if you can see a gap between the bottom of the die and the shell holder. If there is, screw the die down a 1/4 more turn and size another piece of brass and check to see if that one will chamber. If it does not, then you may have to get a small base die or there is something wrong with the chamber.

[Love Life]

Do as pointed out above.

99% chance it is machine gun fired brass and may need to be run up in the sizing die twice.

[WILCO]

I guess I am just really frustrated and looking for the most traffic.

Hi Turmech!

Go back to square one. Read the directions that came with the die set.
Make sure all systems are go and then work through the steps with a "dummy" cartridge. It's not a hard fix. Do you have a reloading manual?

[WILCO]

This seems to be a common problem for the Ruger American Rifle.

Here's one thread:

http://rugerforum.net/ruger-bolt-action/78809-ruger-american-308-bolt-problem.html

Go back to square one. Make sure everything on your end is right. Failing that, contact Ruger.

Keep us posted.

[turmech]

As far as I know the dies are set correct. I did run a few LC, WCC, CBC, Win, PMC and FC through the sizing die again. It is a FL Lee die. The sell holder is making full contact with the base of the die. I ran the die in some more just to see if it would help. All head stamps except the LC will close. It takes some force and all headstamped brass will have 2 diagonal fairly deep scratches on the shoulders. The LC won't close at all. These again are just the resided brass no bullet now to cause the problem.

Love life mentioned it may be machine gun brass and it very well may be. I can't remember where I bought it from and to be honest I don't know much about machine gun brass. I have ran several pieces of the LC brass 2-3 times through the FL die and it does not seem to improve. Is there any other special requirements of reloading machine gun brass?

I don't know if the pic will show the marks left behind after cambering. EDIT pic is not really show the scratches on the shoulder

[375RUGER]

I will suggest, on the brass that does not chamber, too smoke an entire case all the way to the head. Try to close the bolt on it and when you extract it will show you where the interference is. This in case it is more than just the shoulder area.
If it is just the shoulder then you may need to anneal the necks so that the shoulder doesn't spring back. If you don't want to anneal you could try the Redding body die it will probably set the shoulder back. I'm using the Redding FL bushing die on my 1X LC brass and it sets the shoulder back and also sizes the body just above the case head where the machine gun brass has a tendency to bulge.

[btroj]

That sure looks like machine gun fired brass. The chamber on a machine gun is often a bit lose to ensure functioning. This means the case expands enough to make sizing it back down difficult.

Easiest solution is to just use the cases that will chamber. Use commercial brass and no problem.

[Cadillo]

You are going to need to size it in a small base sizing die. Machine guns, especially recoil operated ones, expand the case body a lot at the rear, where a standard sizer just can't get to. This is why most folks try very hard to avoid brass that has been fired in machine guns. Having said that, I've never had any issues using brass fired in full auto M-16's. They are gas operated and their extraction timing is the same as semi-auto guns.

My guess is that your problem is more a case body issue than a shoulder issue, especially given that you've adjusted the sizer to touch the shell holder, which is probably more than enough, if not excessive. If you are able to salvage it, I would expect these cases to fail earlier than the other non problematic brass due to work hardening caused by excessive expansion prior to resizing to correct dimensions.

I would consider scrapping the bad cases and do some reading on chamber headspace, cartridge headspace, and proper sizing die adjustment as relates to the relationship between these two numbers. You might save yourself some grief.

[bhn22]

Also check your case length to be sure it's in spec, but it sounds like either your brass or your dies are the issue. I take it factory ammo chambers perfectly in it?

[turmech]

I take it factory ammo chambers perfectly in it?

I honestly don't know. I have not bought any factory loads in a while and none for this rifle it is new. This was my first attempt to load for this rifle. My next step is to try some factory ammo and also see if these LC will camber in a friends 308. I might as well try some of my brass through his dies too. I certainly don't mind scrapping this brass and loading some other brass. I just am shocked that all the brass tried, regardless of head stamp, is kind of gouging the shoulders. But then again all the brass I have came from one source IIRC. It was a couple hundred mix brass bought in the SS section that was mostly LC. If I get the same marks on factory rounds I think I'll be sending it back to Ruger.

[HATCH]

Size the brass twice then check to see of the empty sized brass will fit.the chamber.
The few times that load rifle i always check everything twice.
I make dummy rounds for everything i load.

[Larry Gibson]

Picture is blurred; are those scratches or dents on the shoulder? Are they there after sizing or after chambering?

What case lube?

Size a LC case again w/o the decap rod in the die and try chambering it.

I have size lots (thousands probably)of LC, WCC, TW and Remington brass that were fired in M60s and M240s w/o any problems using RCBS, Lee and Bonanza Bench rest standard FL dies. Those cases were using in gas guns of all sorts, bolt actions and single shots; some with match spec tight chambers. I've never had to use a small base die.

Have you cleaned the chamber of the rifle really well? Many times there can still be chips from the chambering process in the chamber. If the scratches are from chambering up on the shoulder I'll bet that's part of the problem. A 45 cal bronze brush on a longer rod with lots of solvent will do the trick. Insert from breach end and twist in a clockwise direction vigorously. I even will use an electric drill at slow speed on the rod.


Larry Gibson

[runfiverun]

the case standing up looks like it was fired in a fluted chamber to me.
the scratches from the chambering is what I would be concerned about the most though.

i'd try using your friends die set first and see what you get, I have a lee die or two that are cut on the generous side and won't work with some of my rifles but will with some others.
I have a 7.65 die set in particular that won't size brass down enough to fit two of my rifles so I use it to pre-make brass from other cases then trim then re-size in my rcbs die set to fit those rifles.
I also use it to load for one rifle cut with a slightly larger chamber.

[geargnasher]

Machine guns extractors can also peel the rim back a bit. Someone in the link Wilco posted mentioned pulling the bolt and making sure the ejector would push down flush.

Figure out where the bind is (case head expansion? Rifle headspace too short?) and go from there. If the gun is headspaced too tightly but will chamber and fire factory ammo ok, just grind a little off the bottom of your sizing die. Also, RCBS and others make small-base dies for machine gun calibers.

Gear

[turmech]

Larry,
The die is a Lee FL sizer part of a 2 die set. The shell holder is Lee #2. The case lube Hornady one shot spray lube. I know my camera is not the best. The marks on the neck I would describe somewhere between a scratch and a gouge. I would not call it a dent (boy, I don't know if that description make it clearer or more vague, sorry). The mark forms a V with the point of the V being near the start of the neck and the opening near the start of the shoulder. These marks are not there after sizing only once chambered. The marks are more pronounced on the LC that the bolt won't close on, but are lightly there on all the different head stamp brass.

Thanks Larry, R5R, Gear, and all you for the ideas and things to try. I will let you know how it turns out.

[tomme boy]

That lube may be part of the problem. Spray one piece that is giving you trouble and don't wait for it to dry. Size it right away. Then check it to see if it chambers. Like I said earlier, make sure there is no space between the die and the shell holder with the ram at the top of the stroke. The press will flex that's why you have to check it withe the piece of brass in it.

[Love Life]

Get rid of the Hornady 1shot with your military (or any rifle) brass. It is the biggest turd pinched on the reloading community since...well...I'm not sure.

I've shot thousands of pieces of LC brass, and all it ever required was being sized in a FL die. I use unique case lube, and now a funky concoction that R5R hooked me up with.

You may need to use a small base die. Maybe not. If you want, I have a Redding bumb die you can use. You just have to cover shipping.

I'm thinking your chamber is bogus.

[BruceB]

Love Life and the others are absolutely correct re: that Hornady lube. I went for MANY years without sticking a case on my Dillon 550, and then had at least four or five in a matter of days when I began using the One-Shot.

I threw it away, and have since been using the Midway stuff in the spray bottle with perfect satisfaction..... and NO stuck cases, including thousands of once-fired military cases.

Small-base dies have not been necessary in my loading for numerous 5.56/.223 and 7.62/.308 rifles.... but I have them if needed.

[frankenfab]

Maybe the expander is pulling the shoulder on the upstroke.

[Larry Gibson]

Maybe the expander is pulling the shoulder on the upstroke.

My thoughts as a possible part of the problem. It's why I asked him to try a sized case w/o the decap rod in the die. Could several things going on at once here.

Larry Gibson

[turmech]

A little update if anyone is interested. I took my rifle and brass to a fiends house. He had a Lyman 308 case length gauge which my brass would not fit all the way in. We resized a few of my LC brass in his RCBS standard FL die. After resizing in his dies they would fit correctly in the case length gauge and in my rifle. After going through his dies the bolt handle was still not real easy to close, but acceptable in my opinion. I also tried several other head stamps which he had loaded for his guns which all worked OK some better than others. No more marks on the shoulders with his brass or my brass after going through his dies.

Funny thing is the LC brass would work in his rifle as it was sized through my dies. He loaned me the dies so I will reprocess all the brass and see how it goes.

To this point I think what is happening is my rifle has a tight chamber and my dies are fairly loosely sizing the brass, sort of a combination of problems. I say this because the case gauge shows them very slightly out of spec but they did chamber in another gun.

I will also try to resize with out the decapping pin in as that would seem to be possible as well.

[tomme boy]

I can't remember who makes them, but you can get shell holders that are different heights. It lets you adjust the shoulder for more or less headspace. The other thing you can do is if you have access to a lathe, is to take off about 0.010" off the bottom. Just make sure to radius the edge on the I.D. so as not to scratch the brass.

[turmech]

Did a little more experimenting and you guys are dead on. the lee dies would do fine without the expander.so taking the hint about the lube I lubed some with some lee case lube and bingo no more problems.I have used that hornady lube for 1000s of rounds but it sure would not work With the LC brass and lee dies

[turmech]

For the ease of use I really like the idea of spray on case lube. Is there one that works better than the hornady?

[mhp]

Friday I sighted in my new American using ammo I had loaded for a 308 cetme, three rounds the bolt would not close, the rest closed HARD. Yesterday I tried some once fired sized and trimmed brass in the rifle, they also closed hard. I had to set the shoulder back about a full turn before they chambered properly. Glad I had not primed them.

[dondiego]

For the ease of use I really like the idea of spray on case lube. Is there one that works better than the hornady?

I have had good results with the Dillon case lube. It comes in a pump spray bottle and is lanolin in alcohol.

[Love Life]

99% isopropyl alcohol, lanolin, castor oil, random 2 stroke oil.

Fill mason jar with bottle of alcohol.

Put on electric hot plate (LOW!!!!!!!!!) to warm up.
Once warm stir, in 3 honking spoons of lanolin. Adjust to how you want it to look, but 3 should cover it.

Once lanolin is incorporated you want to add your castor oil (1 tablespoon) and stir it in.
Once the castor oil is incorporated at 1 tbs of 2 stroke oil.

Stir, dump in spay bottle, add a stainless steel nut as a shaker. Done!!

Slick as snot. Requires the brass to be tumbled or washed in hot water and soap to be removed.

[turmech]

Thanks, I have seen that mentioned before on here. You saved me some digging through the site and the instructions you just gave seen simple enough. I will defiantly give it a try.

[Love Life]

Please use an electric hot plate. Do not use an open flame stove.

You may want to play with your amount of lanolin. I used 3 big tablespoons because I was sizing thousands of LC brass and needed the film strength... I think.

Just adjust the ingredients to suit your needs.

[Piedmont]

I like that Lee waxy case lube as well as anything. I was sizing down some jacketed bullets for a project a few years back and the Lee case lube outperformed Imperial Sizing Die Wax that everyone raves about (though both are good case lubes). Under the extra heavy load there was definitely less friction with the Lee.

[Love Life]

Lee is also good stuff.

I like Unique case lube. Smells nice and leaves the hands soft.

[Love Life]

Oh, if you go the lanolin route order it from member RandyRat here on the forum. I bought a pound for a very reasonable price shipped to my door. I thought I had enough to make enough case lube to last the rest of my life, but the wife found a recipe for hand cream and used up all my lanolin...

[country gent]

There are several issues here with factory tolerences that apply and could be affecting /causing this issue. Loading dies are held to maximum headspace dimensions almost always a + only - nothing dimension. Shell holders again are a plus only tolerence. Chambers are to the min side of things. So there is a chance shoulders arnt being set back as needed due to stack up of ttolerences. Throw in the fact this was fired in a diffrent chamber possibly a machine gun with larger than standard chamber and correct sizing becomes more of an issue. I would try removing .005-.010 from the bottom of the die ( can be removed from shell holder but then its a special set removed from die any shell holder will work). Doing this will allow for the shoulders to be bumped back and the body to be slightly sized down more as the body is tapered. Smoke or ink a case chamber and see where the bright spots are at. Lake City brass is tough it has been annealed once at the arsenal. WHat headstamp is on the LC cases? LC LC with + in a circle? Or is there a straight knurl around the case head sometimes with a NM headstamp? LC is standard head stamp with battle bullet, + in a circle is 173 grn special ball used for some matches and machine guns. NM or case head knurl is match ammo with non battle bullet ( Hollow point) normally M852. This was used alot for military teams and DCM CMP matches when ammo was issued to competitors for leg matches. Ive shot alot of the LC M852 over the years. Ink a case or 2 and see where its tight clean the chamber good, go slow pay attention to details and every little thing see what you actually have going on and then think through what needs to be done. I would buy a chamber brush for 308 wrap a patch around it and see what comes out. Then ink the case with a marker chamber and see what that tells you, then make an informed decission what to do.

[Jkallen83]

have you used calipers and check the size of your bullets? also checked the overall measurements of a loaded round? that should tell you everything you need to know. load a round and use calipers and measure every area of it and compare to the round specifications.

im willing to be you'll figure out really quick what the issue is. get some factory rounds and measure them, then measure ur reloads. then figure out what u need to do to make your reloads match the factory rounds, ASSUMING the factory rounds work in your gun and the gun is not "off".

[Dave L]

Throw away the Lee dies. I would guess you have a tight chamber which is OK if you use real dies, not Lee. RCBS, Redding, Lyman or even old herters dies are far and away better than Lee. You get what you pay for. JMHO

[jmort]

"Throw away the Lee dies"

That is some genius advice. Anyone who wants tho throw away Lee Precision Dies should just put them up for sale, they sell fast, and pay more money for other brands. It's like the old saw, "I'm moving away from this place, it's caused all my problems" and so you move, but you're still there. No problems solved. Same thing here, the same operator will will be at the helm of a different vessel. No problems solved.

[Old Caster]

If all the methods above don't solve the problem, check to make sure that the back of your chamber doesn't have a bur on it. If someone was pushing a cleaning rod from the rear and was pushing it all the way through and all the way out and hit the rear of the chamber with the rod because it wasn't centered when pushing it back in, it can make a mark that will cause it to seem like a tight chamber. Usually you can see it if you take the bolt out and just look at it from the rear with a good light.

[whelenshooter]

I recently bought a Ruger American in 243 Winchester. The chamber is tight as well. I had some cartridges I'd loaded for a Winchester 70 and was hoping beyond hope that they would chamber and not be too sloppy or fail to close. No such luck. Bolt came no where close to closing. So seeing as I no longer own the 70 I pulled the bullets and sized (with Lee dies) per the instructions (contact with shell holder then 1/4 to 1/3 turn more). Still wouldn't close on empty case but it was closer. So I turned the die a total of 1/2 turn and voila' it closed. I lubed the cases with Lee case lube.

Some of my 243 brass was formed from 7.62x51 LC brass (because I had a bunch and no 308 to shoot it in) in the model 70. However some of it was also commercial 243 and still had the same result. After I shot the above rounds I sized them using a Lee collet die and they chambered fine. Long story short the chambers on the American tend to be tight and other sites are talking about it too.

BTW I love the rifle. Sorry to say but it shoots as well as that Model 70 did with a bull barrel. Of course the same loose nut is shooting the rifle so it might not mean much. But it sure is lighter, less expensive and more fun to shoot, imho.

David

[Piedmont]

I think I remember CE Harris writing quite a while back that Lee intentionally does not make their dies on the tight end of specifications because this way they better fit the majority of rifles. He also said if the dies were not tight enough Lee would happily replace them with a tighter set.

So send those back to Lee with a detailed letter and I bet you will get a new sizer die that is tighter.

[turmech]

Thanks for all the help I think I got it figured out.

Looks like I am dealing with a couple of things. First and probably the biggest issue was the case lube. The expander on the lee dies was pulling the shoulders out slightly. This was not happening with the RCBS dies (I would guess just the different design expander). I was getting some resistance on the upstroke with the RCBS dies. At the suggestions posted earlier about the lube and sizing with out the expander in I finally got the hint and it all came together.

The specs of the 2 different dies sets and rifle were adding to this some. The camber is tight, the RCBS dies size the brass more than the Lees do. This does really make either one of them wrong just kind of combination of variable going on. The difference in the dies are evident when sizing. Meaning brass ran through the RCBS dies will not be touched if ran again in the Lee dies. Brass sized in the Lee dies will be sized more if ran again through the RCBS dies.

I lubed the cases with the Lee sizing lube and ran the LC brass twice through the Lee dies and as far as I know the problem is solved. I will know I guess for sure when I finally get to load some rounds and test the new rifle.

I have only been reloading a few year and am not as much of an old hand as some of you. I had use the original lube on several 1000s cases with RCBS and Lee dies. Both rifle and pistol brass. I have never had one stuck case or any problems like this. I have even converted .223 to 300 blackout with that lube. I never used military brass until lately. It is obvious now that there are better lubes. Lessen learned. It did cost me a little. Before I figured it out I ordered 100 pieces of Remington brass and a set of RCBS dies (no big deal though).

The new brass bring up another interesting question for me. Is the LC brass or Remington brass better for cast? I will probably shoot both cast and jacket in this rifle depending on the game or range. My first though is that the thicker LC brass neck might be tougher on cast. Up until now, with commercial brass I have use the Lee universal expander die to only bell the mouths of the necks. Given what I have now learned about the LC brass just belling the mouth seem like it may not be enough to prevent sizing down cast bullets.

[tomme boy]

When you get the new brass, DO NOT FL SIZE them. Just make sure the neck is round. The brass should already be undersized. That is a sure way to make the brass have a stretch mark by the base. Your Remington brass is good brass. The Winchester brass is where you might have a problem, it has very thin necks. I like Federal the best for all of my 308win.

[dragon813gt]

I know the OP has fixed his original problems. But I had the same issues w/ Lee dies and a M77 Hawkeye w/ LC brass. I wasn't setting the shoulder back enough. Luckily I caught it at the dummy round stage but I still had to go back and resize 100 cases. All it took as screwing the die in more. It was set up as per the instructions and I had used it to resize plenty of commercial cases before. Just figured I'd share because it's quick to try.