45 / 70 for White - tails

[Ben]

I own a Knight KP - 1, 45/70 single shot rifle. The rifle currently has a fixed power, Burris, 6 X scope ( not shown in the photo below ). I'm giving some thought to hunting white - tail deer with this rifle.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/45%20-%2070/78654.jpg

I've been shooting the Gould 325 gr. HP with different quantities of 2400. Some of the groups fired were impressive, some not so impressive.

I loaded 21 grs. of 2400 with the Gould Bullet and took 10 ea of them to the range for testing. It was a pleasant surprise. Here is the actual 3 shot group that I shot at 50 yards. ( I know , many of you will say that a 3 shot group proves nothing......problem is that it is real hard to get a deer to stand still down here in Alabama for 10 rounds to be fired )

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/008-40.jpg

Here is the Gould HP, mine are sized .460" and weigh approx. 325 grs.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/007-43.jpg

Here are photos of a couple of loaded rounds.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/010-28.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/009-37.jpg

[Smoke4320]

from What I see you have a nice shooting rig there.. should do just fine.. good looking bullets too
Good luck hunting

[starmac]

It is the one shot group that is important in the hunting world.

I am curious, why a 6X scope on a 45/70, maybe I am just backwards, but I prefer a low fixed power on them.

[Djones]

your combo will do the trick. Good luck and thanks for sharing. Make sure you let us know how you do after season!

[Doc_Stihl]

You might want to rethink the hollow point. A flat nose at 1200 fps will do a real nice job. That hollow point might make a mess of an exit. That's my $.02. If cast up soft and driven slow it might work well.

I shot a 130lb doe last year at 12 paces with a 45-70 using a wide flat nose bullet @ 1300 fps and it make a half in hole in and a half in hole out. Everything inside the hide was jellied pretty good though.

[Ben]

It is the one shot group that is important in the hunting world.

I am curious, why a 6X scope on a 45/70, maybe I am just backwards, but I prefer a low fixed power on them.

When I got ready to field test the rifle, the 6 X was in my " scope pile ", so I put it on the rifle.

I've since acquired a Burris 1X - 5 X Variable that will most likely be put on my 45 / 70. For range testing of different loads the 6X does minimize site error however.

Ben

[Duckiller]

Sinc white tails are smaller than bison it will probably take them down.

[irishtoo]

my 45-70 will be use for deer and bear in western pa this year. i am interested in your final loading and the end results on the deer. thanks

[44minimum]

If all of your 3 shot groups look like that one, I can't see any reason in the world why you wouldn't want to take it deer hunting. Although I agree, a lower power scope would likely be more useful.

[grumman581]

A .45-70 is more than enough for any whitetail deer. Personally, I would not use hollowpoints though. An added bonus is that you will also have enough gun for even a large hog, although a lot of hog hunters like to have a backup handgun (especially if their rifle is only a single shot). I use a Glock 20 (10mm) for backup with full power loads.

[No_1]

You should do just fine using that combo for deer smacking. Good luck and don't forget to post pics!

[Rick Hodges]

The hollow points will be just fine.
The Gould bullets were made for deer with the 45/70. I have used Remington Jword 300 gr. hollow points at an actual 1880 fps from my guide gun and it is an impressive Whitetail deer stopper. Even with a hard on shoulder shot it is not overly destructive.
I think you will like the results.

[2AMMD]

Nice shot group. The 45-70 rifle killed deer, buffalo,bear, and everything else in North America in the beginning, and thereafter, and still does. Might even be a little too much for white tail deer with hollow point (meat damage), but soft cast lead be will more than enough. My opinion only.
2AMMD

[badge176]

I concur with Rick Hodges above... "I have used Remington Jword 300 gr. hollow points at an actual 1880 fps from my guide gun and it is an impressive Whitetail deer stopper. Even with a hard on shoulder shot it is not overly destructive."

I have dropped several MN White tails with the Rem 300g JHP and they all went down in their tracks. Since those were factory loads I assume they were "trapdoor-mild". I too have a 1.5-5x scope on each of my .45-70s for woods hunting and having rung the range gong at 200 yds (with like 15 inches of hold over!) it carriers plenty of energy a long way!

[45 2.1]

Here is the actual 3 shot group that I shot at 50 yards. ( I know , many of you will say that a 3 shot group proves nothing......problem is that it is real hard to get a deer to stand still down here in Alabama for 10 rounds to be fired )

Most of the fine folks that state that don't seem to understand that if the first three don't do something good, then the rest are a cr@p shoot................

[Ben]

Most of the fine folks that state that don't seem to understand that if the first three don't do something good, then the rest are a cr@p shoot................

Well spoken my friend !

[Ben]

Certainly, many thanks,

Ben

[TXGunNut]

I like that boolit, Ben. My rifle doesn't....so far. I have a 35 Rem T/C Contender that only fires three shot groups. They're all small, just know better than to hurt myself proving something I already know. Looks to me like all you need is a sharp knife and a cooler full of ice.

[JesterGrin_1]

Nope sorry the 45-70 is too light and too slow it will just bounce off the Deer. lol. :)

Ben you already knew it would work lol.

I do not have the Gould 325 gr. But I have used the Ranch Dog 350 Gr to Great Effect on both Deer and Hogs. But I have not fired any that slow. Mine were in the 1950 FPS range. Of which I am when I have time going to try some with Unique and get them down into the 12OO-1300 FPS range.

[Mk42gunner]

Ben,

I think your load should do fine on Whitetails- depending on your alloy, of course. A good 6X such as your Burris will be fine also.

I have never got Missouri Whitetails to stand still for more than one shot to the vitals...

Robert

[oldfart1956]

Ben I can't fathom why your load wouldn't work. Any reasonable load will do the job, and it doesn't need to beat you senseless to do it. I'm firing a 320gr. roundball out of a smoothbore (65gr-3fg) and it isn't breaking 900f.p.s. and I have yet to see a Pa. white tail that can take a broadside and survive. As a matter of fact I've used the same load and went thru 2 deer at once (on 3 occasions) and have yet to find and recover the ball. Velocity is highly over-rated. Audie...the Oldfart..

[725]

Of course the only real question is if you like spicy or sweet BBQ sauce?

[Rick R]

I do not have the Gould 325 gr. But I have used the Ranch Dog 350 Gr to Great Effect on both Deer and Hogs. But I have not fired any that slow. Mine were in the 1950 FPS range. Of which I am when I have time going to try some with Unique and get them down into the 12OO-1300 FPS range.

I've got the NOE copy of the Ranch Dog bullet with the hollow point option. I'll be using the flat point at @ 1,800fps this season and my wife will be using the 330gr hollow point version over enough 2400 to get @ 1,400fps.

We'll see who fills the freezer first. :grin:

[w5pv]

I saw this video of a guy shooting what was suppose to be an Alaska Brown bear with a 45-70,you could see the spray from the boolit passing through.It looked like a front shot the bear was standing.I don't know the distance it was shot.It was impressive to me. I realize the picture could have been edited to make it look like anything that they wanted.

[bhn22]

Deer are exceptionally impressed by 45-70s.

[btroj]

Wish my Gould HP cast that big.

If a 45-70 isn't enough gun for deer then you need to re-evaluate most of life.

Good luck Ben! I don't think deer will be happy with you. Be sure to post photos.

[white eagle]

three shot groups for a hunting piece is more than adequate
don't see to many benchrest shooters haulin' a 45-70 out
looks as though you made a fine choice best of luck to ya

[Ben]

I may change the scope over to my Burris 1X - 5x variable and " head to the woods."

[Corbi]

I'm deer hunting with a 45/70 this fall. It poll axes what ever it hits.

That load are shooting should work real well.

Corbi

[Ben]

I don't own a " chrony ".
I wonder what my 21 grs. of 2400 with the 325 gr. Gould HP is actually clocking ?

Ben

[btroj]

In the 1250 to 1350 range I bet. My 405 with 24 gr goes 1350. Your charge, and bullet, are lighter so I think 1250 is a good estimate.

Let me put it this way- how fast is it going? Fast enough.

[Ben]

btroj

Let me put it this way- how fast is it going? Fast enough.

That's also my thoughts on the subject.

A brick doesn't have to be traveling Mach III to inflict damage.

Ben

[btroj]

Bet that will open up a deer like a can opener.

[xacex]

To much gun for a whitetail if you ask me. I took a black-tail yesterday with a 300 Blackout pistol and it was plenty. In fact it jellied the lungs, and blew out the front quarter on the way out. Save that 45-70 with the 6x for elk season.

[EMC45]

Last 3 deer I killed were with a 45-70 and the Lee 405gr. Over 14.5gr-15gr. Unique. Never chronoed them. They kill I know that much.

[starmac]

To much gun for a whitetail if you ask me. I took a black-tail yesterday with a 300 Blackout pistol and it was plenty. In fact it jellied the lungs, and blew out the front quarter on the way out. Save that 45-70 with the 6x for elk season.

Would you consider a 50 cal muzzle loader too much gun?? Them slow shooting 45/70 just work.

[btroj]

I have shot 3 deer with my 45-70. Hardly too much gun. Far better in my opinion than most of the normal deer rifles put there.
Big hole in, big hole out. Deer dies.

Too much? Nope.

[OnHoPr]

One thing I have noticed or recollected over time is that most big bore big boolit projectiles have rarely failed on game in the boiler room at they're general intended distances. That loading doesn't look like the exception. IMO with a lot of sporter barrels the three shot group is very adequate for testing and provides less quandary. Just for an example, how many shots do you plan on shooting a deer with that weapon?

[milkman]

Ben,
I use pure lead in my 45-70 at 1400 fps with no leading and it really smacks the deer. I have had really good luck with Herco in my rifle.

[jhalcott]

I use air cooled clip on wheel weights for my alloy. Gas checks and enough powder to get 12-1400 fps with what ever bullet I'm using. I have molds from 300 to 450 grains. I do not HP them, I find the HP's to be too destructive for MY tastes. I HAVE soft pointed some of them though! I have a 15" TC Contender and a 24" Siamese bolt 45-70. There is no doubt that the 45-70 will kill a deer. Once you learn its trajectory, long range is very doable.! My Contender wears a nice 4x scope. I find the 2x scopes make the target LOOK smaller.

[Char-Gar]

I have killed quite few deer over the years with the 45-70. First I used Winchester 86 with the Gould HP and later a Ruger 3 with several bullets. Any fair hit with any decent bullet will produce a dead deer on the ground with out trailing.

You have a very good combination.

[John Allen]

I have never used a hollow point 45/70 on deer but see no reason why it would not be devastating. I do like the way the bullets look.

[sharpsguy]

What caliber is your Sharps?

[sharpsguy]

My Sharps 45-70 shooting the 340 grain Gould bullet over 70 grains of 3f goes 1457 fps over an Oehler 35P. It is absolutely devastating on deer and will destroy the on side shoulder if you hit it. I actually prefer the 480 FN Lyman 457121 at 1240 fps, as it goes all the way through and doesn't destroy nearly as much meat. The Gould is an accurate bullet and does a tremendous amount of damage, too much on deer for me to use it for hunting.

[375H&HGuy]

I used the Gould express cast of 20/1 alloy pushed to 1310 Fps out of a 45-70 Handi Rifle to cleanly take two whitetail deer last year during our primitive season. The ranges were 30 yards and 70 yards. The Gould works like a charm on deer, and from my limited experience there is little to no meat damage. The Gould produced a caliber sized entry hole and a quarter sized exit.

From my testing in wet packs prior to the hunt, the Gould would lose the nose like a Nosler Partition and the shank would keep going. This had me concerned about meat loss but real world results put me at ease. The Gould will be back in the field with me again this year. I think the trick is to not push the Gould too fast. At just over 1300 fps it has worked well for me.

I have a fixed 2.5 scope on my rifle and limit my shots to 100 yards and in.

[Ben]

I used the Gould express cast of 20/1 alloy pushed to 1310 Fps out of a 45-70 Handi Rifle to cleanly take two whitetail deer last year during our primitive season. The ranges were 30 yards and 70 yards. The Gould works like a charm on deer, and from my limited experience there is little to no meat damage. The Gould produced a caliber sized entry hole and a quarter sized exit.

From my testing in wet packs prior to the hunt, the Gould would lose the nose like a Nosler Partition and the shank would keep going. This had me concerned about meat loss but real world results put me at ease. The Gould will be back in the field with me again this year. I think the trick is to not push the Gould too fast. At just over 1300 fps it has worked well for me.

I have a fixed 2.5 scope on my rifle and limit my shots to 100 yards and in.

That is pretty much my views on the Gould also.

Thanks for your input.

Ben

[monge]

make sure there not another deer standing next to the one your shooting at you will kill them both with one shot!

[ghh3rd]

I have a 45-70 Guide Gun with a 4x Nikon that I took out many times over a couple of years hoping for a shot at a deer or hog -- no opportunity either year unfortunately. It actually had frost on it once here in Florida while up in a tree! The 45-70 is taking a back seat this year for a new Rem 700 in 30-06, but I will miss having the 45-70 on my lap...

Randy

[Clay M]

I really wanted the 457122 Gould mold to use with my Sharps saddle rifle with a load of black powder. It has been unavailable for months and the season is here so it won't be in the cards for this year.I cast some Saeco #17 350 GC bullets with wheelweights .I have a load of 43 grs of Rel7 I and going to sight in today with my Ruger #1 If I kill a nice big buck I will post the pictures and report the results of the load.I have the Leupold VX-3 1.5X5 heavy duplex on the rifle . This is my favorite scope with the .45/70 in the thick brush.I can see the reticle up until dark.

[Clay M]

Sighted the gun in. Lots of unburned powder in the barrel.May have to go up a few grains.No leading,no real recoil either.Shoots good at 50yds which is the range I will be using it to hunt.

[grumman581]

I have a 45-70 Guide Gun with a 4x Nikon that I took out many times over a couple of years hoping for a shot at a deer or hog -- no opportunity either year unfortunately. It actually had frost on it once here in Florida while up in a tree! The 45-70 is taking a back seat this year for a new Rem 700 in 30-06, but I will miss having the 45-70 on my lap...


So, instead of not getting a shot with a .45-70, you'll be not getting a shot with a .30-06? Kind of sounds like some of the hunting that I did in my younger days. :)

[badguybuster]

13 grains of unique behind a 300 grain cast lead does great work on white tails and coyotes out to 100 yards or so

[nanuk]

I own a Knight KP - 1, 45/70 single shot rifle. .... I'm giving some thought to hunting white - tail deer with this rifle.


sometimes I wonder if Ben is making a rhetorical statement..... As I am ABSOLUTELY SURE Ben KNOWS the answers

[375H&HGuy]

I wanted to update my earlier post as I took doe number 3 yesterday morning with the 45-70 Handi Rifle and the 330 Gould Express. The Gould is cast of 20/1 alloy and pushed at 1310 fps with IMR 3031. The shot was an undisturbed, broadside shot at 50 yards. It was a classic behind the shoulder, heart/lung shot. The entrance was basically 1/2 inch and the exit was slightly larger than a quarter. There was virtually no meat damage. The odd thing is that this doe wheeled and ran following the shot and we found her piled up 120 yards into the woods. The previous two deer that I shot last year with this load dropped at the shot. This clearly illustrates to me that where the shooting of live game goes there are no absolutes. I am considering upping the muzzle velocity of this load to the neighborhood of 1550 to 1600 and doing some wet pack testing. I may be wrong but I think that the original black powder express loads for this boolit were in the 1500 to 1600 fps range. I don't consider this an instance of boolit failure, but it is 180 degrees from my earlier observations. Any thoughts?

[JesterGrin_1]

I wanted to update my earlier post as I took doe number 3 yesterday morning with the 45-70 Handi Rifle and the 330 Gould Express. The Gould is cast of 20/1 alloy and pushed at 1310 fps with IMR 3031. The shot was an undisturbed, broadside shot at 50 yards. It was a classic behind the shoulder, heart/lung shot. The entrance was basically 1/2 inch and the exit was slightly larger than a quarter. There was virtually no meat damage. The odd thing is that this doe wheeled and ran following the shot and we found her piled up 120 yards into the woods. The previous two deer that I shot last year with this load dropped at the shot. This clearly illustrates to me that where the shooting of live game goes there are no absolutes. I am considering upping the muzzle velocity of this load to the neighborhood of 1550 to 1600 and doing some wet pack testing. I may be wrong but I think that the original black powder express loads for this boolit were in the 1500 to 1600 fps range. I don't consider this an instance of boolit failure, but it is 180 degrees from my earlier observations. Any thoughts?

Yes but a bit of a Rant. Faster does not mean better. You shot the Doe at 50 yards so if you did up the speed then it would be about the same speed at 100 yards. I have learned that going to fast is not good either.

Now for the Rant lol. Things like this teach us that Animals do not know they are dead till they are so. They might fall DRT or as your case they could run an extended distance without rhyme or reason. If you are hunting in a cold climate try and shoot right when you see the game exhale that way they will not have fresh oxygen in there system to help them run any distance.

Now just think if you were hunting Dangerous game like a Grizzly or a Big Brown Bear or even some in Africa. You might make a perfect shot but what you are shooting at may have just enough time left on his clock to take you out as well.


You made good shot placement on the Animal so you did your part correctly it is the Animal that can do unexpected things.


I will stop the rant there or it will get lengthy lol.

[taco650]

To much gun for a whitetail if you ask me. I took a black-tail yesterday with a 300 Blackout pistol and it was plenty. In fact it jellied the lungs, and blew out the front quarter on the way out. Save that 45-70 with the 6x for elk season.

FYI, no wild elk in AL and no elk season either. Elk hunting is a "west of the Mississippi" thing unfortunately.

Nice looking loads Ben and yes they'll be fine for deer. But I think you already know that ;-).

[Ben]

taco650

Ha.......that's funny.

Yes, we are certainly short on Elk around here. However we've got scads of deer. Maybe I can do something to reduce those #'s a bit.

Ben

[JesterGrin_1]

taco650

Ha.......that's funny.

Yes, we are certainly short on Elk around here. However we've got scads of deer. Maybe I can do something to reduce those #'s a bit.

Ben

Good Luck Ben.

There are so many Deer in South TEXAS that in some neighborhoods you have to stop to let the Deer Cross unless of course they wish to stand there in the middle of the road for a bit. One thing we do not have is a lack of Deer. But there is a lack of places to hunt without spending a fortune to hunt Dogs with Horns lol. But then again I would much rather take a Hog. :). Bring that thing back to camp quarter it out and throw a Ham right into the Smoker. :).

Dang I need to find a way to get away and do some Hunting. :). But it would be nice if the temps would get below 80F and not Raining lol.

[taco650]

I don't own a " chrony ".
I wonder what my 21 grs. of 2400 with the 325 gr. Gould HP is actually clocking ?

Ben

Lyman 45th edition lists the #457191 (292gr) with 24gr 2400 at 1497fps and the #457124 (385gr) with 22gr 2400 at 1230fps. These were from a 1886 Winchester w/26" barrel and 1-22" twist. I didn't see where you listed the length of your barrel but I'm guess you're in the 1300-1350fps range.

[grumman581]

There are so many Deer in South TEXAS that in some neighborhoods you have to stop to let the Deer Cross unless of course they wish to stand there in the middle of the road for a bit.

And in some neighborhoods, the deer actually use the crosswalks. Not very challenging when the deer are that tame.

[grumman581]

To much gun for a whitetail if you ask me. I took a black-tail yesterday with a 300 Blackout pistol and it was plenty. In fact it jellied the lungs, and blew out the front quarter on the way out. Save that 45-70 with the 6x for elk season.

One of the advantages of handloading is the ability to tailor you load to what you are shooting. Depending upon the rifle, you can load it up to a shoulder punishing load that you could use on any dangerous game in North America or down to something you could probably take a rabbit without excessive meat damage. Loading it for a white tail just means duplicating a .45LC or .44mag round. A shotgun powder works great for that.

[JesterGrin_1]

And in some neighborhoods, the deer actually use the crosswalks. Not very challenging when the deer are that tame.

Yep and it is so nice to have some Big Buck yell at you like it is there personal side walk lol. But then again Ten or more points to my single little pocket knife does not seem like I would come out ahead lol.

[Brett Ross]

Ok my brother is looking to take his 1884 trapdoor deer hunting this year. It is a fairly new gun to him and I need to work up a load. We have shot is using 12g of Trail Boss behind the lee 405g hollow base bullet and found that accurate. As TB is a low velocity powder, I was looking for opinions on other smokeless powders, which may be more suitable to hunting. I would like to stay away from black as we may not be able to do a decent cleaning were we will be hunting. I have been searching around the site a bit and found what appear to be some sound info (as always), but thought this may be a perfect spot for this question.

[ammohead]

taco650,

Kentucky has a limited draw bull elk season and I believe Pa may as well. Elk are making a good comeback East of the Big Muddy. Bugle magazine of the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation has good write-ups on the eastern elk hunting. Long live the wapiti!

[Poppaclutch]

I read somewhere that the specs for the original 45-70 Gov't. cartridge stated that it had to have sufficient energy to kill a horse at 800 yards. That's something to ponder.

[Geppetto]

taco650,

Elk are making a good comeback East of the Big Muddy.
(slight rant follows)
It would be great if we could have an elk season in Wisconsin. The introduced herds up north were really doing pretty well from my understanding...That is, until they reintroduced the wolf, and basically flushed the elk herd. So now we have lotteries for wolf tags...I would so rather hunt an elk than a wolf...

[taco650]

taco650,

Kentucky has a limited draw bull elk season and I believe Pa may as well. Elk are making a good comeback East of the Big Muddy. Bugle magazine of the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation has good write-ups on the eastern elk hunting. Long live the wapiti!

Glad to hear this.