A beginner's guide to revolver accuracy

[crabo]

I am a newbie. (there, I said it) I have been casting bullets for only a short time, but I have found some things that I believe are quite beneficial to finding accuracy with revolvers. I have asked a lot of questions and gleaned most of these things from the writing of this forum. I then put them to the test in my shooting I have really enjoyed reading all the different discussions about accuracy, but I wish I could have seen a simple list of things that put things together for me at a beginner’s level. It is easy to get overwhelmed when you are getting started.

Please feel free to contribute or disagree. This list is not intended to be the end all discussion of revolver accuracy, but to give the newbie a roadmap that hits the high points. Maybe someone would like to do a list for auto pistols, rifles, and lever guns.

Crabo

[crabo]

A beginner’s guide to ……revolver accuracy

1. Start with a bullet that has a reputation for being a good bullet. A few examples are: the 250 K in 44, the H&G 68 in .45 acp, and the H&G 51 in 357. Is this bullet going to be used as a hunting, target, plinking, or combat load? This will be a factor in what bullet design you decide to use. You might want a round nose bullet to use in a speedloader or a swc for hunting. I have found that a plain base bullet will often shoot better than a bevel based bullet in the same design. Wheel weights are great raw material for casting revolver bullets.

2. Make sure that your lead and your molds are hot enough. Many of the more experienced casters run their pots at maximum heat. You can preheat your molds on a hotplate while your pot is coming up to temperature. I cut a wood block to hold my mold handles so the mold can sit flat on the plate while it preheats.

3. Start with powders that are known to give good accuracy with cast bullets. 2400, AA#9, and 296 are good powders for max loads. Bullseye, 231, and Unique are good powders for midrange and target loads. Work up your loads in increments of .3 of a grain of powder. You should be able to see trends in the groups. You can always try more powders if these don’t work for you.

4. Start with a good lube. There are many good recipes for lube, but if you buy a good one to start with, you can eliminate a variable while you are beginning. After you are doing well in your casting and sizing, then it would be time to experiment with different lubes if you want. Your budget will have to decide what method of lubing and sizing you are going to use.

5. Check the barrel with a push through slug to see if there are any restrictions, particularly where the barrel is screwed into the frame. If there is a restriction, firelapp using LBT’s techniques until the restriction is gone. Slug the barrel to see what size it is. A bullet one thousandth over bore size often works well.

6. The cylinder exit hole should not be smaller than the size of the bullet you are sending down range. Have a gunsmith open up the cylinder holes so your bullets are not swaged down before they enter the barrel. This is also something you can do yourself. The ultimate boolit size is that which requires felt finger pressure friction when pushed through the Largest cylinder exit. The size chosen should not be so large as to cause a loaded cartridge to have any felt friction when placed into the Smallest cylinder

7. At this point you need to decide what your accuracy goals are. Will you only shoot at combat distances, or are you going to shoot at longer ranges, or is the ultimate goal to shoot silhouette at 100 or 200 meters?

8. Test your loads by shooting your gun off the bench. If at all possible, put optics on the gun that you will be testing. The optics can help you remove human error while you shoot for groups. You can take the optics off after testing if you want. You may find that the point of impact often varies when shooting from the bench and shooting offhand. You should shoot groups at the distances you intend to shoot. You may find that many bullet/powder combinations will fall apart at 50 yards and beyond.

9. Keep targets and accurate records. Check and see if groups are round, or elongated. The shape of the groups can be indicators of problems with grip and technique. I also think you should consider adding a chronograph to you toolkit. Knowing your velocity is an important ingredient in working up loads. I don’t have one yet, but I will in the future.

10. Enjoy yourself. There is quite a bit of satisfaction in shooting the bullets you cast, not to mention the savings. I load and cast so I can shoot more for the money I spend. I like being able to shoot a bucket full of ammo instead of a couple boxes of store bought bullets.

[felix]

Crabo, that is very good. Add to paragraph 6: The ultimate boolit size is that which requires felt finger pressure friction when pushed through the Largest cylinder exit. The size chosen should not be so large as to cause a loaded cartridge to have any felt friction when placed into the Smallest cylinder. ... felix

[dubber123]

Excellent post, this will help alot of guys getting started. I might add not to limit yourself to a certain velocity range when working up loads. I have found 2 great loads lately, one well slower than I would have tried, and one quite a bit faster. Both loads were discovered at the prompting of others on this board.

[MT Gianni]

Cull any bullets with flaws. Wrinkles, defective bases, and side gaps have no place in accuracy testing.
Practice a consistent grip. Do not vary your grip when you find what works. Practice at home holding and pointing and empty unloaded gun until you can hold the sights steady for an extended time without wavering. We all have a pulse but working those muscles strengthens them.
Gianni

[44man]

One thing not mentioned on many posts is that you must lose all fear of recoil. You have to hold the sights on the target and break the trigger without moving or the best load in the world will not work. Even offhand, the sights must paint the target in as small an area as possible for each of us depending on age, strength, etc, and the trigger break must come without anticipating recoil and dumping the gun. You can't hold tight in the target offhand but by controlling fear, you will be surprised how good you will shoot.
Never just yank the trigger when the sights cross the bullseye either or you will shoot high. Flinching makes the shots go low.
You must learn trigger control, if you are off target, hold what you have and as you get back to center, add more pressure over and over until the trigger breaks without you knowing when. Never MAKE the gun shoot. That only works with the steel shooting group that will shoot thousands of rounds a week. They don't contend with recoil and have learned not to flinch. With the practice they get, they can control when the gun fires. Most of us here can't do it and I know I can't so just practice the basics.

[Lloyd Smale]

Few other things that belong around #5 and #6 are alignement between the barrel and cyl when the gun is locked up and ready to fire. Quality and type of forcing cone and muzzle crown and the #1 most important aid to accuracy in my opinion a quality trigger. It must be fairly light and completely creap free.

Ive seen guns that shot loads and bullets i shook my head at right. Ive seen guns with mismatched sizes, poor alignment, and poor barrels give surpising reslults. But for the most part even if they do shoot well there on the finiky side. But if you cant get the trigger to break at just the exact time your sights are aligned you will NEVER shoot small groups consistantly.
I hear all the time that so and so shoots one inch groups with his out of the box ruger. What i find is that 99 percent of the time so and so shot one or two one inch groups with his stock ruger and its 7lb trigger and cant repeat them with me watching.
Shooting a one time one inch group does not constitude a one inch gun. I hear it all the time and i hear it even on this forum. Guys saying there stock ruger will shoot one inch groups at 50 yards. Let me tell you something. Ive shot many many stock and custom rugers and one that is capable of shooting one inch 50 yard groups EVERY time is one rare revolver and youd better lock it up before i steal it from you.
When i claim my gun will shoot one inch it had better do it for 12 shot groups and do it for an average of at least 3 12 shot groups. One 5 or 6 shot group at 50 yards is not going to tell you anything other then your having a good or bad day at the range. That means EVERY shot too. No throwing one flyer out of the group or allowing yourself to call one when shooting.
If you have to call a flyer you either need trigger work or need to work on your trigger skills. To me any gun and even any man thats good enough to shoot one inch 50 yards groups using open sights with these criteria are a very impressive thing. I wish i could. But to be honest i dont have a gun in the safe that i personaly can make do this.

So my point is when your setting your accuracy standards keep in mind that you need to be honest with yourself and understand that theres a BIG difference in what your going to see on paper then what alot of guys on computer fourms will tell you you should see. I get a real good laugh out of post that go. " Im so happy, I just bought me a new (fill in the blank) it was my first handgun and i took it out today with (fill in the blank) factory ammo and it shot one inch groups at 50 yards"

I dont care how good a gun is or what brand it is. If you are lucky enough to find factory ammo that shoots one inch groups at 50 yards your first outing with an out of the box ruger with virturally no shooting experience with a handgun you are surely making guys like me that shoot every day with custom guns look like a fool!!!!!!
Ive shot enough out of the box rugers to know that one that shoots under 2 inch at 25 yards with loads it likes is a good ruger. One inch 25 yard guns are exceptional and one in 50 yard guns are some kind of holy grail that a guy comes accross maybe once in there lifetime. People argue with my opinion all the time but im sorry. If you happen to not agree with this one your probably alot better at stroking a keyboard then you are a trigger ;) ;)

[Bret4207]

How would you guys feel about moving this to "Handguns" and making it a sticky?

[44man]

Lloyd, what you say is very true. It takes work on the gun and thousands of shots. Much work with boolits and loads and technique. I would never expect a beginner to do it. It is never done every day but if done enough, it can be claimed for the gun. My BFR's will regularly shoot under 1" at 50 but it took a LOT of work. The Ruger is a little harder to keep consistant. But I HAVE broken 1" at 100 yd's several times and many, many groups under 2". But nothing is set in stone and nothing can be duplicated at will. I have had answers to my posts where someone claimed they could shoot 1" at 100 yd's ON DEMAND with their Freedom.
We all know it can't be done! The potential might be there but the nut behind the gun might be loose any given day.
I have worked with big bore revolvers since 1956 and learned a lot but will never claim to do anything on demand. With enough good groups I know what the GUN can do but will never claim that I can do it all the time.
Now give me a single shot pistol and things change. I have many 200 yd groups 2" and under and my MOA 7br has shot 5 shots in .505 at 100 yd's. Will I do it all the time? NO, because I am not a machine. Can the gun itself do it? Yes, because I made it so.

[Crash_Corrigan]

I am just about crosseyed after reading Lloyd's post above. Please, I like what you say but please throw in a break once in a while to give my old tired eyes a rest.

Just an ending to a sentence then a double ENTER key will provide a welcome break and make it easier to follow.

Just like this. I ain't gonna cost you any paper! And we would love it.

Thanks,

Dan

[MT Gianni]

One more thought, watch the front sight not the target. Keep the focus there and the target out of focus slightly. G

[Newtire]

Good to hear a Ruger that gets em in 2" @ 25yds. is a good one. Mine does that on a regular basis. Now, 1" @ 50 yds. If I got that with my Ruger Auto Rifle, I'd be happy.

[44man]

I made a longer transfer bar for my Ruger so I could get the trigger to 1-1/2#. I also recut the forcing cone. A Ruger out of the box won't do it. The BFR's will once the trigger is worked on. I have put 5 shots in 9/16" at 50 yd's with mine. Cast boolits too.
I only shoot heavy loads for hunting, heavy boolits and near max loads. Never look down your nose at a good revolver.
I can't shoot fast, from the hip, quick draw or any of the fancy stuff. I shoot to hit deer, period.

[Buckshot]

............Great post and thread.

What Bret said:

Bret4207, "How would you guys feel about moving this to "Handguns" and making it a sticky?"

Would anyone mind?

.............Buckshot

[crabo]

I was hoping that we could leave it here for a couple of days before we move it, because I think it might get more exposure in this section. I was also hoping there would be some takers on coming up with simple lists for rifles and lever guns. I enjoy the heavy deep discussions that Felix and BA get into, but some of it I don't understand at this stage in my education. This type of a list would have helped me in the beginning.

This has been a lot of fun for me. It was really exciting to start shooting good groups with my S&W 8 3/8 586 and cast bullets. I know that the 2.5x8 Luepold I have on it at the moment, helps cut down on some of the shooter error when I shoot groups at 100 meters. I built a shooting box that holds a sandbag under the barrel/crane area and I can support both of my hands against the side of the box as I grip the gun

I realized that one of the most important reasons to shoot groups on paper, at any distance, is to have confidence in your dot. I want to know that my gun/load combination is capable of consistently hitting the target I am aiming at. That way, when I miss, I know that it was me and not the gun that has missed. Then I can work on technique with confidence knowing if I hold it right, stroke the trigger right, and keep a good sight picture, I will hit the target.

Thanks,

Crabo

[Lloyd Smale]

sorry when most were taking english class in school i was skipping and going hunting. But i broke it up just for you.
I am just about crosseyed after reading Lloyd's post above. Please, I like what you say but please throw in a break once in a while to give my old tired eyes a rest.

Just an ending to a sentence then a double ENTER key will provide a welcome break and make it easier to follow.

Just like this. I ain't gonna cost you any paper! And we would love it.

Thanks,

Dan

[wiljen]

Practice a consistent grip. Do not vary your grip when you find what works. Practice at home holding and pointing and empty unloaded gun until you can hold the sights steady for an extended time without wavering. We all have a pulse but working those muscles strengthens them.
Gianni

Loading your gun with SnapCaps for home practice helps protect the mechanism and also forces the user to be certain it is unloaded.

I keep a set for dry fire practice for all my guns.

For those who don't want to purchase snapcaps, they can be made simply. I load an empty case with a RN bullet and use a pencil eraser in the primer pocket. (The kind from mechanical pencils fit perfectly or require little trimming.) Then I paint the cartridges green with a sharpie for instant easy recognition. BTW, sharpie seems to color brass better than Nickel if you decide to go this route.

[Bass Ackward]

I was also hoping there would be some takers on coming up with simple lists for rifles and lever guns. I enjoy the heavy deep discussions that Felix and BA get into, but some of it I don't understand at this stage in my education. This type of a list would have helped me in the beginning. Crabo


Crabo,

The problem with beginners lists, is they are never complete. The best beginners list I ever saw was a Lyman Manual. It even has illustrations. It is a very good read. But .... it has to be read.

In the end, there are three steps on every "beginners" cast bullet list:
1. Research your objective.
2. Decide what you want to do.
3. Go do it.

The advanced list adds two more steps:
4. Figure out what went wrong.
5. Try again.

Everything you read on this board falls into one of those 5 steps. :grin:

[Bret4207]

Bass- Thats all true, but if we can lay down some grounds and make it a sticky for those that don't have the Lyman book yet, or can't afford/find the book, it'll help things along.

We'll leave this here for a while and then move and stick it.

[crabo]

"The problem with beginner's lists are that they are never complete."


I teach autobody in a high school. One of the things that I have learned is not to give too much infomation at one time. I often tell my students, "do this and then come get me" I then give them another step and tell them to come get me when they are finished with that step.

I enjoy teaching others. I tell my students that they can go as far as they want with it. Some do the minimum and some excell. I was looking for a place to start and then once they get past the basics, they can get their Masters and PHDs from the more advanced in this forum.

[Bass Ackward]

"The problem with beginner's lists are that they are never complete."


I teach autobody in a high school. One of the things that I have learned is not to give too much infomation at one time. I often tell my students, "do this and then come get me" I then give them another step and tell them to come get me when they are finished with that step.

I enjoy teaching others. I tell my students that they can go as far as they want with it. Some do the minimum and some excell. I was looking for a place to start and then once they get past the basics, they can get their Masters and PHDs from the more advanced in this forum.


Teach,

OK. But consider this.

Dealing with the small amount of information that is in front of you is exactly what this board is about. Ask one question, ask it under the appropriate section, and get an answer focused to the detail level of your question. Just EXACTLY your auto body example.

The information on this board has been dominated by basic information. There is a category for every point on your list with the first one starting to be about bullet design. It says quote, "Start right here when you buy a new mould or need help with design." If someone can't or won't read that, then they ain't going to search for a beginners list. Sorry. But if it makes you feel better, to make a list, please do so.

I look forward to you jumping in and providing clear and simple information when the individual questions are being asked if you believe that the basic level of information isn't being addressed well enough for that question. That is where you are really needed.

[BD]

A couple of things:

I think this would make a great "sticky" on the handguns forum, and I'd add a second with the basic list of how to "look" at a revolver when purchasing one.

The second thing is that I can't believe how you guys are picking on those Rugers! I've owned 4 or 5 of the Redhawks which would shoot a 1" group at 25 yards. In fact most of them could shoot two one inch groups out of the same cylinder. I think I went through five of them before I found one which would shoot a single 1 1/2" group instead of the two groups a few inches apart. The first cylinder full from my out of the box Dan Wesson was a real eye opener, and after a bit of work an entirely new range of possibilities became apparent.

Unfortunately by the time I figured out what exactly was involved in revolver accuracy I'd gotten to the age where I'm the limitation, not the gun. In my case it's probably time for optics. In any event, some basic guidelines might allow the younger guys to get to good mechanical accuracy before they get so old they have a hard time seeing the target at 100 yards.

BD

[PAPABEAR]

Gentlemen Another point to ponder. It has been my experience that the bore must be free from jacket material otherwise the cast bullet will tend to "skate" on this material instead of maintaing contact with the bore.
The oppisite of this is also true

I leaned this the hard way shooting IHMSA/NRA HUNER PISTOL back in the 80's:Fire:

[mag_01]

All good information ---- One thing I would add --- Sight picture and trigger control are two of the most important components of shooting well . If you have to let one go --- Trigger control is most important to good shooting --- I watched a young man shooting off the bench ---- He was not doing bad he cut a three foot group at 50 yards ( egg shaped ) --- I suggested that he concentrate on trigger control and his groups shrunk considerably. He would get his best sight picture and then jab at the trigger --- This young man was shooting a rifle off the bench.

My post pertains mainly to shooting a pistol standing up. ------ Mag_01

[mauser1959]

I have a real problem , I have been shooting both wheel guns since I was young and semi autos. I seem to have passed some of my bad habits on to my daughter. It would be very nice to find a very good instructive list of the way to shoot; such as I have changed my shooting stance since I started teaching her to shoot, and taught her to do the same; not always the wisest decision.


It would be very nice to be able to be able to build a good homebuilt type of ransom rest, It should be well within the abilities of most shooters to build. The randsom rest and thier need for each hand gun to have its own grip puts it out of the reach of a lot of us; but I believe that many of use with a bit of work could make a good duplicate that would work for the guns that we shoot the most often , and that would supply us with the data needed to know how our guns were shooting. I find it of interest that some of the old gun books have a simple rest to test out hand guns that require a set of grips to be made but the other mechanism is quite simple.


I have envisioned building a randsom rest starting with a discarded 4 footed kitche chair and going from there ; it would sure be nice to take my human element out of the reloading.

[spurrit]

Few other things that belong around #5 and #6 are alignement between the barrel and cyl when the gun is locked up and ready to fire. Quality and type of forcing cone and muzzle crown and the #1 most important aid to accuracy in my opinion a quality trigger. It must be fairly light and completely creap free.

Ive seen guns that shot loads and bullets i shook my head at right. Ive seen guns with mismatched sizes, poor alignment, and poor barrels give surpising reslults. But for the most part even if they do shoot well there on the finiky side. But if you cant get the trigger to break at just the exact time your sights are aligned you will NEVER shoot small groups consistantly.
I hear all the time that so and so shoots one inch groups with his out of the box ruger. What i find is that 99 percent of the time so and so shot one or two one inch groups with his stock ruger and its 7lb trigger and cant repeat them with me watching.
Shooting a one time one inch group does not constitude a one inch gun. I hear it all the time and i hear it even on this forum. Guys saying there stock ruger will shoot one inch groups at 50 yards. Let me tell you something. Ive shot many many stock and custom rugers and one that is capable of shooting one inch 50 yard groups EVERY time is one rare revolver and youd better lock it up before i steal it from you.
When i claim my gun will shoot one inch it had better do it for 12 shot groups and do it for an average of at least 3 12 shot groups. One 5 or 6 shot group at 50 yards is not going to tell you anything other then your having a good or bad day at the range. That means EVERY shot too. No throwing one flyer out of the group or allowing yourself to call one when shooting.
If you have to call a flyer you either need trigger work or need to work on your trigger skills. To me any gun and even any man thats good enough to shoot one inch 50 yards groups using open sights with these criteria are a very impressive thing. I wish i could. But to be honest i dont have a gun in the safe that i personaly can make do this.

So my point is when your setting your accuracy standards keep in mind that you need to be honest with yourself and understand that theres a BIG difference in what your going to see on paper then what alot of guys on computer fourms will tell you you should see. I get a real good laugh out of post that go. " Im so happy, I just bought me a new (fill in the blank) it was my first handgun and i took it out today with (fill in the blank) factory ammo and it shot one inch groups at 50 yards"

I dont care how good a gun is or what brand it is. If you are lucky enough to find factory ammo that shoots one inch groups at 50 yards your first outing with an out of the box ruger with virturally no shooting experience with a handgun you are surely making guys like me that shoot every day with custom guns look like a fool!!!!!!
Ive shot enough out of the box rugers to know that one that shoots under 2 inch at 25 yards with loads it likes is a good ruger. One inch 25 yard guns are exceptional and one in 50 yard guns are some kind of holy grail that a guy comes accross maybe once in there lifetime. People argue with my opinion all the time but im sorry. If you happen to not agree with this one your probably alot better at stroking a keyboard then you are a trigger ;) ;)

Lloyd,

I had been wondering when someone that's been here a while was gonna call ******** on that! I have 4 Ruger revolvers, at present, and I shoot them well and often. I know I certainly can't produce 1" 50 yard groups with them, and I figure the shooter that could is rare. Hell, for that matter, in this day and age, most folks couldn't do it with a benchrest rifle held in a vise!

By my figuring, if you're saying you can do this, you're:

A.) A damned liar

B.)My personal hero and a past or future olympian

C.)Too stupid to know better

OR, most likely,

D.) You have no idea how far 50 yards is. I see this all the time.

When I was guiding hunters, you simply wouldn't believe how few of them could estimate distance to the nearest 200 yards. If they made the shot, 50 yards was 300. If they missed, 200 was 800, and the 5 mph crosswind was a 40 mph gale.


Edited to add: I'm not saying this can't be done, or none of you can do it, but I take the claims of folks doing it at will with a shovel fulll of salt.

[Newtire]

I had been wondering when someone that's been here a while was gonna call ******** on that! I have 4 Ruger revolvers, at present, and I shoot them well and often. I know I certainly can't produce 1" 50 yard groups with them, and I figure the shooter that could is rare.

I agree that most people couldn't shoot a 1-inch group with an out-of-the-box to save their mother. I would be lucky to do that even once with a "tuned" pistol myself.

I have found one thing to be true-"The first liar don't stand a chance." There are going to be those days when you can't hit anything and those days when you do great. I have just learned to accept that but if I have some kind of technique and can figure out how I did a certain thing, that is what I am looking for.

I see alot of good advice here. I have found very little of "mainstream" load advice about this or that accurate load to be of much use to me. Case in point is my .32 revolvers. The loads I have found myself thru extrapolation &/or thru various loads listed by people here have been the best ones.

I read a thread here awhile back where someone was asking about which book to get and one of the group members here told him that this place was the book. This is about as true as it gets. After you have gotten to first base using one of the available books, then you proceed using information from a place like this one.

Just to say thanks to all those who have helped me along to make it more fun for me to shoot with what I have. Alot of good advice here for sure!

Thanks again. "Hi, I'm Newtire and I am a cast boolit-aholic"

[spurrit]

Newtire,

I think that too often, we simply give people a load that works for us without mentioning to them (beginners) that a great load in my 4 5/8" .45 Colt Vaquero might absolutely SUCK in their exact same gun. Hell, for that matter, we rarely point out that some guns just won't shoot a certain type, shape or weight of bullet. OR, they'll shoot all but one.

[unclebill]

this is a great thread!
i have decided to just get it over with and buy a ransom rest so i can truly see what my 6 handguns are really capable of.
p.s. i am pretty new at reloading and have never cast a single bullet.
dont hate me guys.

[crabo]

We won't hate you, but you had better get off this site if you don't want to start casting. It will get in your blood and the next thing you know, you be getting in on the group buys. Take my advice, stay out of that forum.

Crabo

[Newtire]

Please, I like what you say but please throw in a break once in a while to give my old tired eyes a rest.

Just an ending to a sentence then a double ENTER key will provide a welcome break and make it easier to follow.

Just like this. I ain't gonna cost you any paper! And we would love it.

Thanks,

Dan

Hey cc,

I agree on the long postings. Just highlight em and press "control C", paste it into Word & put in your own breaks. I like making the font bigger too. Today up at the range, just as I would get the perfect sight picture, I would have this twitch thing that comes back to those people who have had Belle's Palsy like me. I need all the help I can get some days.

[georgeld]

Great thread.
I agree with the one inch or one hole shooter by beginners. Just don't happen unless it's a fluke/one time.

About 6-7 yrs ago the CMP guys decided to have a pistol match. what ever you had, and wanted to shoot. Bunch of on the run targets, some rolled tires with target in the center, the main targets were 12-24 shots at 25, 50 and 75 yds. Measured on the range.

There was 34 of us shooters. I never figured I was better than just so so with a handgun. OM .30 carbine I got in '73 is what I've shot most. Possibly 10,000 rnds thru it. A good many at well over 100yds, a few times at a barrel full of rocks at 300yds across the pasture. amazing what you can hit after a few ranging shots.

Anyway, I was doing quite well, ticked at my partner because he couldn't hit his share when I was. At the long targets standing, taking our time. The second loading at 50yds I dropped a couple shells and when I leaned over to pick them up. Was baffled to see half dozen guys standing behind me watching over my shoulder at my shooting.

Nothing was less than 3-4" that I shot. I'm just not good enough to make inch groups not even at 25yds. But, when it was over with. I'd won every single target!! I'm still baffled at that. I never figured I was much good with a gun. These were just everyday shooters that wanted the fun of a pistol match to break up the CMP 200yd shooting. Some of us were burning out on the same old Sheet all the time.

One of the guys with a .44 Super and glass asked me to check out his gun because he had them all over a 4ft sq target. He was down to five shells left. Something like: 250gr w/25gr H110. Which I learned afterward was over max.

Anyway, I fired those five shots into about 3-4". This was after looking at his results and seeing that everything was good with the gun. At 75yds, he only hit the backboard three times out of 18 shots. Surely something had to be wrong with his gun, or sights. Most of the other shooters were watching me shoot his gun. When we walked to the 75yd target and there they were. All I could say was: "It's not your gun that's at fault".

A month or two later he told me the barrel had split and Ruger had replaced in n/c. There wasn't anything wrong with it that one time I shot it five shots.
I'm one that will p'o a lot of people because I just am not one that believe's in scopes on a handgun. Nothing personal against anyone. It's just one of the things I don't believe in doing.

Anyway, mostly what I'm trying to say with all this. Is in response to Lloyd's post about beginners and one inch 50yd groups. Out of this many shooters, my 3-6" groups won ALL the targets that day with many different type's of handguns, even half dozen with scopes.
Lloyd, you're right, it just don't happen.

[S.B.]

"The problem with beginner's lists are that they are never complete."


I teach autobody in a high school. One of the things that I have learned is not to give too much infomation at one time. I often tell my students, "do this and then come get me" I then give them another step and tell them to come get me when they are finished with that step.

I enjoy teaching others. I tell my students that they can go as far as they want with it. Some do the minimum and some excell. I was looking for a place to start and then once they get past the basics, they can get their Masters and PHDs from the more advanced in this forum.


That's what nice about the internet, you can save all the information and go back to it later for reference? So, pour the info on me, please!

[Echo]

Wonderful thread. About a year ago a fellow had a S&W 500 and was putting shots all over the 25 yd target. He & his 'coach' were clicking the sights a click or two, trying to shrink the groups (PATTERNS!). I asked if I could fire one round, to which he gladly agreed. I selected a rock out at the berm (about 60 yds) for an aiming spot - and hit it. (I don't always hit a rock at that range...) Of course, the recoil ended up at about 11 o'clock. I turned and pointed out that it wasn't the sights that were the problem, it was the nut that held the grips. As I was leaving, I suggested he focus on the front sight - and he started shooting groups. Big groups, but groups.

A little good coaching goes a long way...

EE

[spurrit]

I just have a hard time finding someone to coach me that knows more than I do. (Not that I know that much)

After a coupla months of shooting handgun,(been a rifle guy all my life) I was already outshooting the guys working at the indoor range, so they're really no help, unless I want to learn a bunch of drills. I'm more concerned with accuracy at long range. I'm just hoping I'll find some of the old guys in one of my clubs that really knows what's going on, and is willing to help.

[be603]

Here's link (http://blackeagle603.blogspot.com/2008/04/front-sight-preeeesssss.html) to a worthwhile basic handgun video I came across at Xavier's place a couple weeks back.

[Three44s]

Buy the book from Beartooth Bullets:


http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm

Acquire a .22 Lr gun as close as you can afford to your chosen hunting gun.

Shoot it till it has smoke wafting off of it!

Then go back to your big gun and use lighter loads first ..... gradually upgrade those handload's power by switching powder, primer and bullet choices.

Shooting technique:

Grip your gun THE SAME at all times ....... don't shift around.

If you are shooting a DA revolver ...... keep the web of your strong side hand against the the "memory hump".

Concentrate like .44 man said on the FRONT SIGHT! ....... that's why there is a shooting academy named ......... FRONT SIGHT!!!!

Dry fire .... to condition shooter and gun alike!!!!

Sight in your gun for a six O'clock hold ...... Ie. Pumkin on a post.

I was taught the following and it serves me well:

You must move .............. but do your best to move PREDICTABLY!!!

No side to side movement ....... just up and down ......... slowly ....... smoothly ......... and never above your target ...... below it and just up to it.

As the front sight aproaches it's zenith ..... top of stroke ...... tighten up on the trigger ...... SA OR DA ..... it's the same!!!!! After a while you will be able to predict trigger break ..... as it's a must for best shooting.

Now, the most important and often least listened to part: ........

Hold the "gain" on the trigger and let the muzzle settle and on the next rise ........ more pressure. It's not a race to see how soon you can fire ......... It's about releasing the trigger SPOT ON!

Don't count on building Rome in ONE DAY ........... it won't happen ........ start close and get REAL comfortable with a small target.

Golf balls are my chosen reactive target ........ takes a licken and keeps on .............

Just my 2 bits worth.

Three 44s

[spurrit]

444,

Among my favorite reactive targets: Lollipops with the sticks stuck in holes in a board, eggs(really cool), cans of cheap pop(preferably well shaken), and bottles of water.

[Wicky]

Guys, top thread. just saved me asking a question about the cylinder for my super blackhawk.
Thanks to one and all - this is what makes this forum the best on the web!!

[Three44s]

Tonight it was heads of cabbage that "went south" from my wife's garden!

Before I discovered golf balls ...... I shot cull apples ....... then went after the resulting pieces.

Pears are REALLY an "ear popper" ........... LOL!

Regards All

Three 44s

[Lloyd Smale]

just dont expect to quote your group sizes with that ransom rest. Most gun shoot completely different in a ransom rest. Ive seen guns that shot 3 inch out of a ransom rest do an inch off of bags and ive seen ones that shot terrible off bags do well in a ransom rest. A ransom rest may take the human error out of the picture when it comes to sight alignment but they dont allow a gun to reciol or vibrate like they will on bags or in field positions. thats why i like to work up loads on a bench with only a bag under my grip hand. I dont like the barrel or frame resting on anything. What that does for me is especially with fixed sighted guns it will allow the gun to hit poa very closely to what it will do in the field. If you have developed good trigger control your group sizes will be within a 1/4 inch of what they would be under perfect conditions with a ransom rest anyway. What your really missing out on with a ransom rest is trigger control practice. Theres no better place to develope perfect trigger control then sitting on a bench. you can consentrate on you trigger control every shot. Even someone that shoots as much as me needs that practice. After shooting a few thousand rounds off a bench you will go into the hunting field and when the shot comes your brain will take over and you will be alot more likely to do it right. Pulling a lever on a ransom rest is good for a guy writing a magazine article that doesnt want anyone to know he really cant shoot a handgun but to me thats about it.
this is a great thread!
i have decided to just get it over with and buy a ransom rest so i can truly see what my 6 handguns are really capable of.
p.s. i am pretty new at reloading and have never cast a single bullet.
dont hate me guys.

[spurrit]

I just thought of something else for a cool target. Ears of corn, lengthwise. I bet that'd be cool as hell, if you "cored" one with a .45 or an '06!

[HABCAN]

FWIW, here's the handout I used with newbie students back in the day......................

THE FIVE RULES OF FIVE,
OR
How to hit the same target TWICE.

The whole idea of shooting is to hit your target, right? The Hand Gun is the most difficult of all firearms to keep firmly aligned with its intended target because it is held in your HAND, the most flexible, wobbly part of your body. To hit a target multiple times, preferably in the same spot, the firearm must be aligned and braced exactly the same from shot to shot, just like an artillery piece or mortar that can repeatedly drop shells down a chimney at great range. Keep this analogy before you as we go through the following steps, for you want to conform your body into a similar solid platform. All the elements will work together to achieve this, and neglecting any one will affect all the others negatively. Consistency from shot to shot is required, and this is how you can achieve it.

First, an overview of the elements, which are Grip, Stance, Sighting, Trigger Control, and Delivery.

Grip. You must develop a certain strength in the grip of your hand on the handgun frame. It matters not how hard that grip is, only that it is consistent. I suggest you grip as hard as you are able, because that is a ‘lock’ point……………you cannot grip ‘harder’. Yes, as you progress, that grip will become stronger and stronger, but so long as you always grip as hard as you can, it will be consistent from shot to shot at that point in time. Now comes the difficult part. That ‘grip’ is with three fingers only! The thumb and index (trigger) finger MUST remain relaxed. Squeeze water out of that grip with three fingers and let the other two float as gently as a butterfly. Difficult, but not impossible. You should be able to do this after five minutes practice.

Stance. The most important part of ‘stance’ is PUSH. If you will learn to push the gun as hard as you can at the target, you will achieve another ‘lock’: you cannot push ‘harder, and you have eliminated the possibility of vertically stringing your shots on the target. You will probably notice that your gun muzzle is about 4” closer to the target than it was previously! Once you have established a ‘stance’ relative to your target, DO NOT MOVE until your firing sequence is finished. Once the mortar baseplate is sunk in the ground, moving it will change its Point Of Impact (POI). Similarly, ALL the parts of the cannon’s trail must stay put between shots. So do not fidgit between shots or during reloads.

Sighting. You must learn to concentrate upon the front sight ONLY. Let everything else appear blurry in your field of vision, but keep that front sight SHARP! Alignment of one sight with the other is important, but only a little compared to this. Think always “Front sight, front sight!”

Trigger. You must learn to press the rigger firmly straight back to the rear, as any twisting or sideplay will affect your POI and jerking or flinching is NOT control!

Delivery. You must learn to consciously forget a shot once you have fired it. You did the best you could for it, but now it is on its way and beyond any control. Observe its POI if you have time and make any necessary corrections for the NEXT shot, but once it’s gone, it’s GONE and you must concentrate on delivering the NEXT one, not worry about that LAST one.













GRIP.
1. PLACE the handgun in your hand, grasping it FIRMLY.
2. Squeeze the water out of it, maintaining the thumb/trigger-finger ‘butterfly’.
3. Align it with the wrist
4. Aligned with the forearm bones
5. Aligned with your sighting eye.

STANCE.
1. Face ~45 degs. to your Line Of Sight (LOS) to your target.
2. Set your feet parallel to each other, about shoulder-width apart.
3. Stretch the top of your erect head all the way up to God.
4. Without moving your head position, collapse your spine vertically.
5. To confirm your stance, close your eyes, get comfy, then open your eyes and adjust
your TRAILING foot to correct any windage errors and bring your piece back onto your
LOS.
5. Raise the handgun to your LOS and PUSH!!

SIGHTING.
1. Keep both eyes open at all times. Keep your head erect and look out of the middle of your
eyeball/eyeglass lens.
2. Properly align the sights with each other.
3. Align the sights to your Point Of Aim (POA).
4. Concentrate on FRONT sight ONLY!
5. To confirm your stance, close your eyes, get comfy, then open your eyes and adjust
your TRAILING foot to correct any windage errors and bring your piece back onto your
LOS.

DELIVERY.
1. Place pad of first joint of trigger-finger on trigger.
2. Check that there is airspace between that finger and the gun frame. DO IT!
3. DO NOT relax any part of ‘Stance’. Press trigger firmly straight back to the rear.
4. Control that press! Press when sights are on the target, or moving toward its center, NOT
away from it. Stop pressing if sights move off the target (as they will!). It’s called Trigger
Control!
5. Shot will fire as a ‘surprise break’. Consciously HOLD the trigger to the rear (Follow
Through) THEN release it.

Experienced shooters here may have other views, and we all learn from each other's experiences.

[cptkeybrd]

To the Teacher, bless you man for a excellent observation..The work that was done on the beginners list was perfect for a starter. Once reading it and observing the basics, they would search more info online like we do............ =]

[Scriptoe]

2 things........

Load consistently and shoot often.

The gun is what it is and is always going to do the same thing every time you pull the trigger. The only thing you can control is the ammo and your trigger finger.

Weigh every bullet, every load of powder, trim every case exactly the same way, use the same headstamps or even weigh the cases, measure the oal of every bullet, do every little move exactly the same way when handloading for accuracy.
SLOWLY creap up your load until your groups tighten, then start to loosen, then go back to when they were tight. You will find several places where the groups tighten, write all of those down. And remember, every barrel is different and will shoot different with different loads.

Get a feel for the gun, the only way to do that is to shoot it hundreds of times, thousands if you can. Get used to the gun, learn where the trigger breaks, get used to the recoil and sound. And don't get so caught up in shooting paper or you will get bored to death and your eyes will cross and head spin and you will give up.

Kill a bunch of pop/beer cans first. shoot at lilly pads on a pond or soft pieces of slate on a mud bank. Bust pop bottles while they float down the creek after a heavy rain or small flood. Stand clay pigeons on end on top of wooden fence posts, back off 40 paces bust them. ALWAYS know what's beyond your target!

You have to be able to plink BEFORE you can punch paper. And before you can ethicly hunt for that matter.

And remember, grouping a gun is fine and dandy and a good way to find a good match between bullet and barrel. But hitting the target is the basic goal.

A 6 shot 1 inch group at 50yds that is off 2 inches to the right equals 6 misses in my book.

[spurrit]

A 6 shot 1 inch group at 50yds that is off 2 inches to the right equals 6 misses in my book.

LOL. same here! Am I the only one that notices how often a gunwriter will brag about tight groups that are nowhere near the center of the target? No wonder they're always doing articles on followup shots and tracking!

[shorty500]

Re: point #4- bullet lube--- always remember what john linebaugh said----- "if it resembles a crayon that's probably all it's good for" soft and gooey does tend to make alot of difference.

[Rodfac]

Great thread.

For the over 50 crowd with less than perfect eyesight, here are a few pointers.

Glasses make a difference. I use the reading part of my bifocals to SEE the front sight. I was a commercial airline and military pilot for over 40 years and my glasses, when I finally had to get them, were all ground so that the bifocal is higher up on the lens than normal to allow me to see the instrument panel, not just some reading material in my lap. With their close in focal point, that's all I can see clearly. They will not focus on the target. When I first had trouble reading I bought Wally World cheaters for $5 and they worked, still do in fact. By accident one afternoon, I had them on when I went out to fire a test group. What a difference. The front sight was clear as a bell and the target a gentle blur as it should be. No shifting focus from target to front sight, just a nice clear post to concentrate alignment on. Cheater will work...I use them now for hi-power with the Springfield, the M1, and the AR.

Trigger control. In hi-power rifle match shooting, I add pressure to break the shot ONLY when the sights are moving back towards the center of the black. This is super important in off hand where the wobble pattern is so much larger. It works for handguns as well. Add pressure only when the sights are moving TOWARD the center of your aiming area.

Do not rush the shot, but keep steadily increasing pressure as the sights move TOWARD the center. Another way to shoot this is to mentally accept your wobble area. If you assume a target stance, and align the sights but make no attempt to shoot, you'll see the wobble area that you naturally have on any given day. You can't improve on it aside from changing body position. Accept that and note that it is generally in the black. All you have to do is allow the gun to fire while holding that wobble area and your shots WILL ALL BE IN THE BLACK.

Grip. I can change my zero's on any of my hi-power rifles by changing the amount of gripping pressure in either hand. That said, think how it affects a revolver...try it. Loose grip, strong grip and see the impact points change. So it's easy...use the SAME GRIP every time...both the strength of the grip and where on the gun you hold it. For most people, two handed stances shoot to a different location than a one hand hold. Find one that does not radically change your impact points. For me, it's a gentle cradling grip with my left hand and a strong man's handshake with my right...just short of a white knuckle, tremor. The key is to be able to use the trigger without affecting the grip.

Practice. Dry fire to help with trigger control and stance. Use a string as a target, aligning the sights on it. If you suspect that you are flinching or changing your grip as the gun approaches firing, dry fire on a blank piece of paper. Most people can shoot tighter groups on a blank page than on a black target dot. The reason is that on a blank page, you have only the front sight to see, no chance to sneak a peak at the bullseye. The result is a better breaking shot and positive training in trigger control.

Forget the ransom rest stuff. Test your loads during development by shooting from a natural field position. I like to sit with my back against a support, in a semi-reclining position, with the gun extended as far as I can reach between my knees. This gets the front sight as far from my 63 yo eyes as possible and is very stable. I get better results from this position than off sandbags. Too, it gives me trigger control practice and front sight work for each expensive shot. The zeros I get from this position match those I need for off hand game or target shooting. Keith's great book, "Sixguns" shows this position in his long range shooting chapter and it works. The more or less full reclining position assumed by the steel plated animal crowd is tougher to assume in the field, gets you a lifetime supply of chiggers and ticks here in KY, and has no applicability to hunting.

The only down side to the sitting reclining position is that revolver cylinder gap flash will smudge up your jeans on the left knee and it's virtually impossible to remove.

If you want to be a good pistol shot, use good ammunition, know what you gun likes as to cleaning, and practice on THE FRONT SIGHT. Accept the wobble area and allow the trigger to do the work WHEN IT WANTS TO, not when you think everything's perfect, "better make it go bang now".

Regards, Rodfac

[44man]

I need to amend a little. I haven't posted this thread for a while. Since I last did, I have shot several 7/16", 50 yards groups with my BFR's and many, many sub 1" groups on cans. etc at 100 yards, even with the Ruger. No I can't do it all the time but when my aim is off, the boolit goes where I call it. I have found the boolits and loads my revolvers like and from a good rest me, Whitworth and Bioman can outshoot a ransom rest every tick of the clock.
Revolver accuracy ALWAYS starts with the right boolits, loads and loading procedures for the gun. But this will not cure bad shooting habits or fear of recoil. The thing in a nutshell is that if your gun will not shoot, you can spend a lifetime with it and never get anywhere. You can have the best trigger control on earth and be locked solid on target but if the gun will not group, you will not shoot groups and will never improve.
Now to out of box Rugers. Bioman bought a new Ruger SBH hunter. To take it out of the box I did a 30 minute trigger job for zero creep and a 2# pull and mounted an Ultra Dot on it.
We went down to sight it and every group he shot as we adjusted the sight to 1" high at 50 yards was in 1/2". This was with the boolit and load for my SRH. A 330 gr WLNGC from my mold, 21 gr of 296 and the Fed 150 primer. He has killed a few deer with it and was confident enough to make a neck shot, dropping the deer right there.
Now here we go! :veryconfu If you can't shoot, how do you find a load? How do you know what you do at the loading bench is going to help? How do you test components and lubes? How do you know that the perfect load you rejected was not your fault? How do you know if your loading equipment can make good loads?
If you CAN shoot, but use the wrong loading procedures or the wrong boolits, etc, how can you shoot groups?
If you shoot a .38 real good and then go to a .44, .45 or a bigger gun and shoot very bad, is it the gun, loads or you?
How do we put all of this together to improve all shooters? How do we, sitting here at a keyboard, help someone across the world? I can tell a person what will shoot in his gun but if he can't shoot to start with, he will cuss me.
The top shooters in the country have the best guns and loads. They shoot hundreds of thousands of rounds a year. But notice none of them like recoil! That is out of our realm and pocket books. For many that can afford to shoot a lot, it is just making noise and shooting close range because everything is not put together.
First, a fellow needs to learn to shoot and to lose fear of recoil by shooting BIG stuff too. It does no good to stay with a .22, then go to a .475. But he MUST shoot the .475 too and apply what he learned with the .22. If he can't do it, nothing we say can help.
Once you have control of the gun and caliber, only then can you find accuracy. But if you don't have enough accuracy to start with, how do you know if you have gained control of the gun?
My head hurts! :bigsmyl2:

[wallenba]

Also keep in mind, especially older revolvers made without the benefit of CNC machines, that each cylinder chamber parks in front of the forcing cone imperceptively different. The result is that each chamber will hit just a little different than the other. Know your gun, and start on the same chamber each time you load and fire.

[spurrit]

The only down side to the sitting reclining position is that revolver cylinder gap flash will smudge up your jeans on the left knee and it's virtually impossible to remove.

Simple green and a fingernail brush to rub it in.

[wallenba]

Scriptoe, about post #45, another great tip for plinking is Ritz ( or cheaper) crackers. Nothing to police up, biodegradeable food for critters.

[spurrit]

My kid gets a kick out of shooting eggs, even with a .22. Cheap stick type lollipops make a neat reactive target, as well.

[happie2shoot]

I have shot two or three thousand of these

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_cricket

[Changeling]

I have shot two or three thousand of these

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_cricket

If you switch over to "stink bugs" I will be forever grateful !:mrgreen:

[rugerman1]

If you switch over to "stink bugs" I will be forever grateful !:mrgreen:

Western Pa is infested with them demon hellspawns of satan http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/14.gif

[tuckerdog]

I love this web site.! It took me a long time and lots of experimentation but I bought a superblackhawk took it to a smith had it tuned and couldnt hit spit started concentrating on consistant grip and trigger control.started hitting.

played w/different powders and lubes,and bullet alloys,[429421]setteled on 250 grns +/- .5grn finally from sandbag at 32 paces 1.320"if i do my part.the reason I set at 32 paces i at 25zero hit 3.5 hi,50 zero hit about same low so i split difference

load is 250 grn keith orange magic lube win cases&primers 19.8grn 2400 dont have crony but shoots good over that powder charge groups start to open up.
this forum helpedd in my work/play the key seems to b trigger control over any thing else:lovebooli

[spurrit]

If you switch over to "stink bugs" I will be forever grateful !:mrgreen:

Ever had a junebug land on your neck, inside your collar?

[44man]

LOL. same here! Am I the only one that notices how often a gunwriter will brag about tight groups that are nowhere near the center of the target? No wonder they're always doing articles on followup shots and tracking!
Group center means nothing at all when working or testing. Once the right load is found, sighting in is NEXT, not first.

[spurrit]

Actually, I do both at once, more or less. Once I have the gun shooting near the center, then I tighten up the groups all I can, then make any final adjustments. It doesn't help my groups at all when I'm on the edge of the paper.

[healey55]

Great thread.. agree with the guy who says plinking is the way to learn.. Most of us learned that way cause there really were no "ranges"

A gun writer that I respect came up with a theory that I find to be pretty close to making sense.

In the many years of testing guns and loads from sandbags and ransom rests and with a variety of shooters he came up with this...

That if you take any experienced shooter.. not supermen but ones with a lot of trigger time over the years... That if you take their five shot groups from sandbag rests and throw out the two worst shots...

That the group will be the exact same size that a ransom rest will give. In other words, the best group possible for that gun and load. It makes sense to me. He claims he has checked the theory many many times and it always works.

[Mntngoat]

We won't hate you, but you had better get off this site if you don't want to start casting. It will get in your blood and the next thing you know, you be getting in on the group buys. Take my advice, stay out of that forum.

Crabo


I agree, i started coming here to try and sell my left over used lead from bullet swaging. Now i have hoarded nearly 700 lbs of lead and am in line for 4 group buy molds. 2 in calibers i don't even own rifles for. YET



ML

[Dill45]

Coming from a novice shooter...(mind you this is all off a sand bag)

I've found shooting .22's and .38's is a lot easier than shooting big bore guns. I can easily step into my dad's Ruger single six or his Black Hawk in .357 and shoot 2-3 inches groups at 25 yards without much work up. But when I start shooting 45LC's in my Black Hawk, and light loads at that, I have to work through about 20 rounds before I can get my mind around it. (Used to be a lot more than that) As soon as I get in the mode I can shoot good groups. As I shoot I can physically see the groups getting smaller. By the time I've shot 3 or 4 cylinders I can get my Ruger, mind you this is out of the box no trigger job or sweet grips, to shoot around 1-1.25 inches at 25 yards from a bag. It takes an awfully long time to get there though. Shooting hot jacked loads, I just can't get them smaller than 2 inches. I know its me and I'm either anticipating the recoil or jerking it around.

Now the more interesting part I've found is...I have a S&W 500 revolver (8 3/8's with a Bushnell scope on it), and it has some mighty recoil to it. I shoot everything from very light loads to full house. The light loads I can shoot without much issue, around 1.5 inches at 50 yards. But when I start shooting the heavy loads I can't help but flinch, and I know I'm doing it. But at 25 yards it doesn't seem to show up...I have 2 loads that both can shoot under 1 inch. At 50 the groups open up a lot more to 2-4 inches (though the first time I took it out to 50 yards I shot groups that were around 1.5 inches, so I know the gun can do it!!!), usually closer to 4 and I figure this is the flinch doing it, but why is it not showing up at 25 yards?

I love shooting the 500, its just so much fun. My dad always asks why I shoot that cannon...the whole experience is just something else.

[John Van Gelder]

crabo

A good list.. An addition: a good thermostatically controlled lead pot is a benefit, different temperatures for different metals. Straight lead melts at about 800F, with the addition of other metals the melting temperature decreases. If the metal is not hot enough you do not get complete filling of the mold and voids in the bullet, if the metal is too hot the alloys tend to come out of solution.

Let me revise my initial statement..A very good list.. There are system available that will allow one to install optics on their gun with out having to make any permanent modifications, so if you want to carry that gun with iron sights the switch back is quick and painless.

There is no better indicator of what the potential of your loads than knowing you are on target with each shot, something that is much easier to accomplish with a scope.

The best for last..above all enjoy your self..

[Piedmont]

Gee whiz. Lead melts at 621 degrees farenheit.

[John Van Gelder]

Piedmont

I stand corrected, 621.5 F.. Sometimes my "old timers" disease kicks in ...

Thanks ~~ John

[Tommy Kelly]

Here's my findings on pistol accuracy. First I'm a gun nut and had handguns for years and never really learned to use them. In my opinion a handgun had only one purpose and it was for home protection or short range shooting. For years I shot handguns and hit close to my targets and was thinking that's all that could be expected from a handgun. Then one day I saw a tape with the proper stance for shooting a handgun. It explained the proper hold and stance and everything. I really watched it and paid attention. I watched it through several times and then went out and tried is just as instructed. I went to hitting almost every shot instead of hitting close. Now if I don't hit I know where I messed up the guns are extremely accurate and if you do your part they will do theirs. Seeing that tape and paying attention to every detail improved my handgun accuracy more than anything. Since that I have really enjoyed handguns and now have a nice group of them that I use regularly and shoot quite well with now. I enjoy plinking and have just about gone to strictly handguns for shooting fun.

[Crash_Corrigan]

I have 4 Ruger BH's. A 357, a 30 Carbine, a 45 Colt and my newest a .44 Special. With the first 3 the best I can do is a circular group of 2 to 4 inches of 24 rounds at 25 yds. I haven't worked up a decent load for the .44 yet and I only have about 100 rounds through this new gun so the jury is out on this one.

However I also have a Smith 586 with a six inch bbl and a Taurus 1911 in .45 ACP.
With these two guns I can consistently get 1 1/4 to 1 3/4 groups at 25 yds from sandbags. On a great day I can get sub inch groups with the Smith but I cannot predict on what day that will be. Firing 24 to 28 shot groups at 25 yds I get round groups of less than 2" with either of these guns.

I am always trying to improve my accuracy with these guns and I have found that the most important thing is trigger control and concentration on the front sight. That is assuming that the ammo is consistent and the best loading for that gun.

I have not bought factory ammo for any of my guns unless it was for CCW use. There I feel using factory ammo is required as it would give a plaintiff attorney less things to hang his hat on if I were to have to stop somebody with my gun.

The quality of my handloads after over 20 years of messing with them I have complete confidence in. I know they will go bang when the trigger is pulled and the powder charge will be consistent and correct. I spend a lot of time making sure that my ammo is the best I can make.

The only rounds that I have less confidence in are some of my 9 MM rounds made on a Dillon 550 B. I have had some problems in the past with the primer feed on that machine when I was churning out thousands of those rounds a week. Some of them have only a primer and no powder.

I found this out when my wife was firing my EAA Witness 9 MM. In the middle of a string of shots she had a round go POP instead of BANG and she failed to stop shooting to investigate. She fired another round and as the first round was a dud without powder it had stuck fast in the barrel. The 2nd round hit the first and caused the barrel to bulge, split from the chamber to the muzzle and some lube or whatever came back to hit her on the forehead and safety glasses.

Of course after this mishap she finally had enuf sense to stop shooting and put the gun down and asked me to investigate. I expect this was because of the **** that came back to hit her as well as the mini explosion at the end of her hand.

I had to send the bbl back to the maker for a removal of the old one and the installation of a new one. No other damage to the gun. Wife survived the mishap but we both learned a lesson. She needs to stop shooting when something goes awry and I need to slow down when making 9 MM rounds.

I have another 4 thousand 9 MM rounds made that are suspect and I will burn them up carefully and keep a range/squib rod and mallet handy for dud rounds.

I have 3 9 MM weapons and I have yet to find one that will consistently group less than 2" at 25 yds. Maybe it is the guns or the ammo or maybe both. The nine is a finicky round to load.

The OAL is critical and the casing size so small that the powder charge is also critical. Then of course I am using all kinds of casings that I find everywhere as few people bother to reload the 9 MM and they are all a mite different.

I ran a few hundred thru a Chrony once to see how my reloads were performing and the velocity readings were all over the place. I was getting readings from 850 to 1100 FPS from ammo which was loaded with the same boolits, lube and powder at the same time.

This is not conducive to good accuracy. I need to work on my 9 MM ammo. Maybe using the same brand of cases or whatever.

[Buddy]

I attended the WV Hunting and Fishing Show a few years ago. There was a Colt rep there with some SAA's for everyone to shoot. The targets were 6" plates @ 25yds. I observed about a dozen people trying to hit the plates before I decide to give it a try. I didn't see anyone hit more than 3 and one guy was so frustrated he swore he would never buy a Colt handgun. I stepped up to the firing line, picked up a hawgleg and thumbed 5 rounds in. I looked @ the rep and asked if a 6 o'clock hold was ok. He nodded a yes and I proceeded to knock over all 5 plates. Man, that felt good!

My favorite revolver is a DW744VH8. I can consistantly shoot 3" @ 100yds with it. It might shoot better than that but I can't.

My favorite visual effect target is a can of shaving cream. Don't try this up close if you don't have a razor handy.

[HDS]

Tested one of my cylinder throats today since I got leading problems. I did so by driving a CB sized to .430" through the barrel and then pushing that slug through a cylinder throat. It went, after I used all possible force I could to get it through.

What does that tell you guys about my barrel/cylinder throat sizes? This is a S&W 629 that was bought new.

[crabo]

You need to get some pin gauges and measure your throats. It sounds like they are too small.

[Quiet.and.simple]

Being a new guy here and reading the wealth of knowledge that people just toss around here is amazing. Up until a couple of weeks ago I never gave serious thought to loading my own, and now I'm chasing boolits to remake a .38/200 cartidge. You guys are inspiring.

[daniel lawecki]

Great post I shoot 44 mag 45lc your post is right on the mark a chrony is also a great tool

[44man]

Great thread.. agree with the guy who says plinking is the way to learn.. Most of us learned that way cause there really were no "ranges"

A gun writer that I respect came up with a theory that I find to be pretty close to making sense.

In the many years of testing guns and loads from sandbags and ransom rests and with a variety of shooters he came up with this...

That if you take any experienced shooter.. not supermen but ones with a lot of trigger time over the years... That if you take their five shot groups from sandbag rests and throw out the two worst shots...

That the group will be the exact same size that a ransom rest will give. In other words, the best group possible for that gun and load. It makes sense to me. He claims he has checked the theory many many times and it always works.
That would be Taffin!
Not to be here, we shoot load testing at 50 yards and count all shots. No cherry picking. Shots wide of the group have a reason so the problem is found. There is a reason for fliers and they can't be ignored.
Seems Taffin shoots 20 yards and cherry picks.
Once you have control, you can read a target and discover the problem. It could be you, the gun, the load, the alloy, the powder or primer. To ignore fliers means you lie to yourself. To ignore them and write about it means you lie to readers.

[crabo]

In my opinion, you need to count every one your pistol will hold. You should also mark the cylinders and see if a particular cylinder throws a shot outside the group. Fliers aren't always the result of poor marksmanship.

[44man]

In my opinion, you need to count every one your pistol will hold. You should also mark the cylinders and see if a particular cylinder throws a shot outside the group. Fliers aren't always the result of poor marksmanship.
Yeah, could have a gun problem. I have seen it, getting a few fliers from a chamber but after testing over and over with a marked chamber, I found it was me or the load.
Now one undersize throat can give you a headache but that is easily fixed.
Maybe I am lucky but all chambers have worked for me.
Been having a problem with the JRH that I don't get in the .475. The first shot of the day is usually off a little. Not always either.
I never clean the gun so it might be weather and what is left in the bore that one shot fixes. I am starting to think it dries out and being such a large bore it makes a difference. I can be 3" off at 100 yards just for 1 shot. It will not do it again all day.
Seems to be a time thing and how long the gun has sat in the safe. If I shoot every day the problem seems to go away.
Sometimes we just don't know!
When I shoot softer lead for hunting I always have 3 shots tight and 2 out, my 45-70 will do it all the time until I go back to my target alloy. The shots out are still center of deer to 100.
I oven harden the softer stuff and if I don't groups just get so large I could not tell a flier from a hole in the ground!

[paul h]

I finally got around to reading this thread. I think the three most important steps were skipped, and while they may not seem to need to be mentioned, if you don't follow them, everything else is for naught.

#1, Start with an accurate revolver. Not all revolvers are created equal, and if you have a gun that can't mechanically shoot well, you'll tear out your hair in frustration. I was fortunate to start my quest to shoot a revolver accurately with an accurate revolver. I also had the opposite experience with a gun that fealt great in my hands, but had some mechanical problems that made shooting small groups impossible, inspite of extensive load work and bullet testing. Seemingly minor issues like a barrel choke where the barrel screws into the frame can make a gun that should be able to shoot 1" at 25 yds, shoot 5" at 25 yds.

#2, Learn how to consistantly hold a revolver from a bench rest position. This is more difficult than with a rifle, but again, without a consistant hold shot to shot, you won't shoot small groups. No need for a ransom rest, just practice consistancy.

#3, Optical sights. Now matter how good your eyes, my distance vision is 20/15, optics are essential to the smallest possible groups. Not only do optics aid in clearly seing the target, they let you know whether or not your hold is steady. You might not know your hold is less than solid w/ irons, but magnify it 6-8 times and you'll see what I mean.

[blaster757]

hey guys I'm new to the site been shooting awhile ,buying my cast boolits and been thinking about casting my own, sounds like a good way to save some some money,retired now so any way to cut cost would be a good thing.I shoot some IDPA,IPSC also do some deer and hog hunting with handgun.already have some equip. Anyways good reading on the site so far and glad I found the site...

[S.B.]

Using my Hawkeye bore scope i inspected how well each cylinder lines up with barrel/forcing cone. I have just one cylinder that worries me a little, but it is not off center by much. How should i mark this one cylinder temporarily...Sharpie pen maybe. Where on cylinder should i mark permenatly if this certain cylinder were to shoot bad. I could leave this chamber empty when i shoot. Gun is Ruger Blackhawk 45LC.
If this handgun is used for hunting, I think you're making too much of this? Shoot it first to determine accuracey, before making rash judgements.
Steve

[DRNurse1]

Mr Mauser 1959:

My daughter has the bug. No cure that I know of so far, but plenty of range time may help relieve some of the symptoms. I think the best place to start is deciding what sort of shooting you want to do: plinking, hunting, personal protection, home defense, target or competition, sporting, etc. Next decide how much of an initial investment you can manage. Then you can shop for a firearm that meets your current needs.

The advanced marksmansip course is in the USAMU [U S Army Marksmanship Unit] Manual. It is available on line at: http://www.bullseyepistol.com/amucover.htm and is part of the Small Arms Firing School at Camp Perry every year.

A mentor will help A LOT because they can watch you and suggest immediate corrections to improve your shooting.


I have a real problem , I have been shooting both wheel guns since I was young and semi autos. I seem to have passed some of my bad habits on to my daughter. It would be very nice to find a very good instructive list of the way to shoot; such as I have changed my shooting stance since I started teaching her to shoot, and taught her to do the same; not always the wisest decision.

It would be very nice to be able to be able to build a good home-built type of ransom rest, It should be well within the abilities of most shooters to build. The ransom rest and their need for each hand gun to have its own grip puts it out of the reach of a lot of us; but I believe that many of use with a bit of work could make a good duplicate that would work for the guns that we shoot the most often , and that would supply us with the data needed to know how our guns were shooting. I find it of interest that some of the old gun books have a simple rest to test out hand guns that require a set of grips to be made but the other mechanism is quite simple.

I have envisioned building a ransom rest starting with a discarded 4 footed kitchen chair and going from there; it would sure be nice to take my human element out of the reloading.

[Arctic Blues]

Greetings Gentlemen!

I love this site. Best in the known universe!

What is the best method to accurise a super black hawk?
I recentaly accuired a used one and must do some work to it.
Guess I am just wired that way?

Where is the part about checking cylender alighnment?

Where is the part about lapping the tight spot in the barel?

Thank you all for your many years of expierance, maximum engineuity and paitence to try to teach a old dog some new tricks!

[detox]

Concentric brass and boolits is a good start. I check and segregate all my Remington brass for case wall runout with my Neco concentricity gauge. The thicker wall Starline brass should work well if it has a runout of less than .001". Use a good mould that will produce a more concentric boolit. I like the RCBS .357 Silouette mould. Use linotype alloy to fill the mould well. Use a lube that will sling off easily as it is fired. I like the soft SPG lube. Alliant 2400 is good powder.

A tight fitting cylinder that lines up well is a must. No tight spots in barrel except near muzzle. A good scope and trigger.

[S.B.]

Concentric brass and boolits is a good start. I check and segregate all my Remington brass for case wall runout with my Neco concentricity gauge. The thicker wall Starline brass should work well if it has a runout of less than .001". Use a good mould that will produce a more concentric boolit. I like the RCBS .357 Silouette mould. Use linotype alloy to fill the mould well. Use a lube that will sling off easily as it is fired. I like the soft SPG lube. Alliant 2400 is good powder.

A tight fitting cylinder that lines up well is a must. No tight spots in barrel except near muzzle. A good scope and trigger.

And just what persent better accuracy do you get doing your proceedure?
Steve

[detox]

And just what persent better accuracy do you get doing your proceedure?
Steve

Good accuracy starts with snug fitting and concentric ammo. This will reduce boolit wobble down range I am sure. A boolit that starts out strait ends up strait on target. I have never compaired so i have no percentages.

[detox]

Good cylinder chamber fit helps lots. The less expensive Lyman .357 Cowboy boolit fits my cylinder well (less freebore in cylinder throat) and shoots good in my S&W 686.

I copied and pasted this from LBT's website:

REVOLVER BULLETS
There are two factors that are mandatory in getting optimum revolver accuracy. They are named
below, along with our solutions.
1. The gun must have internal dimensions which maintain a tight grip on the bullet from the
instant it starts moving till it exits the muzzle.
2. The bullet must be of a design and diameter so the gun can keep that tight grip!
OUR SOLUTIONS
Notice that we offer an assortment of crimp to nose lengths, the object being to allow setting the
bullets out to approximately 1/32 inch from the end of the cylinder. This gives maximum powder
room, minimizes bullet jump to the rifling, and because it puts a heavy driving band out into the
cylinder throats, it prevents the bullet from tipping during take off, - IF THEY ARE FITTED
PRECISELY TO THE CYLINDER THROATS, WHICH IS POSSIBLE WITH LBT BECAUSE WE
OFFER ANY DIAMETER YOU NEED!
To determine the maximum nose length your revolver can handle, (if it isn't listed below) hold a
CRIMPED empty case firmly in the cylinder, then, with the depth gauge on a caliper, measure
inside the cylinder throat from the front down to the crimp. Our closest offering UNDER this
measurement is the correct nose length for your gun.
- Some of the more common measurements are:
All 357's will take a .35 nose length while S&W's and Dan Wessons cannot take longer, but
many other 357's have longer throats.
S&W and /Ruger Blackhawk's can use up to a .45 nose length in 41 calibers and longer.
Redhawks, Dan Wessons in those same calibers can handle .5 nose lengths.
The 454 in Freedom Arms guns takes a .4 nose with 454 brass or .5 with 45 colt brass.
The 50 S&W has unlimited room. 475 and 500 Linebaugh's take a .4 nose.
If you gun isn't in this list, measure as described above. Single shot handguns for the magnum
revolver cartridges do not require crimping or can be crimped, as desired, and most have long
tapered throats which dictate the best diameter to be such that the cases fill the chamber to a
close fit. This close fit holds the bullet base from expanding and going out of square, while
holding it in alignment while entering the rifling.
Internal dimensions of revolvers vary widely, and barrels tend to be very inferior inside, because
the cylinder to frame attachment threads can crush the barrel smaller at this point, and roll
engraving pressure deforms the inside of the barrel, as do sight and other attachment screws
and bands. Also, cylinder throats can vary several thousandths of an inch smaller or larger than
the barrels groove diameter. LBT is the only company to address these problems, by providing
the necessary measuring slugs and by training our customers to be expert in understanding,
measuring and repairing the problems, and in proper bullet fitting.

[77ruger]

Lot of good advise

[josper]

You need to get some pin gauges and measure your throats. It sounds like they are too small.
http://www.westportcorp.com/single-pins-class-z.html This link will show you a site to purchase your gage pins

[nickE10mm]

http://www.westportcorp.com/single-pins-class-z.html This link will show you a site to purchase your gage pins

Just remember, the gage pins will only tell you the LAND DIAMETER, not the groover diameter. They are great for measuring CYLINDER diameters but not so good for BARREL diameters. Of course, they will measure RELATIVE diameter of barrels which can give you thresholds but nothing exact for firelapping.... except for cylinders.

[josper]

For the use of gage pins read this. http://www.gunblast.com/FerminGarza-Firelapping.htm

[Smoke Jensen]

Ruger NM Single Six .32mag + 90gr swaged lead TC over 4gr Unique = One ragged hole off sandbag at 25 yards.

[tazman]

I used the wonderful information on this site to work up loads for my handguns. I will be doing the rifles later.
I wanted to thank all of you for the time and trouble you have taken to post all these years of experience in one place so we less knowledgeable people can learn from it.
I think I have put it to good use.
Recent post: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?230637-I-found-a-load-my-pistol-loves!

[Eliduc]

I made a longer transfer bar for my Ruger so I could get the trigger to 1-1/2#. I also recut the forcing cone. A Ruger out of the box won't do it. The BFR's will once the trigger is worked on. I have put 5 shots in 9/16" at 50 yd's with mine. Cast boolits too.
I only shoot heavy loads for hunting, heavy boolits and near max loads. Never look down your nose at a good revolver.
I can't shoot fast, from the hip, quick draw or any of the fancy stuff. I shoot to hit deer, period.

You guys are making me feel bad. I shot a 2 inch group at 25 yards with my Colt Army Special 38 the other day and was ecstatic ....until I came here.

[John Van Gelder]

Eliduc

2" at 25 yards, is still pretty good. Revolvers are capable of some very impressive accuracy, but most require some work. The enrty made by detox is a good example. There are a lot of variables, every handgun is a bit different. Sometimes you get a gun right out of the box that will really shoot. I bought a 7 1/2 Ruger Redhawk .44 magnum back in 1981, the only thing I did to that guns was to put on a set of the express sights, I used it to hunt marmots in the mountains when I lived in Alaska, from a rest I could regularly take marmots out to 100 yards, with cast bullets.

If you are trying for the best possible accuracy, I believe that a machine rest is a good investment.

[Sgt Petro]

Every time I acquire a new wheelgun I re-read this sticky just to make sure I'm not forgetting anything. Always helpful as usual.

[backhoe]

Ya know with all the info we have today and still have leading and accuracy woes I was just wondering,if the old guy's in the 1800 and early 1900"s had the same. Any 0ne know what alloy"s and what pressures they were running? Did they have to scrub lead too?

[44man]

Research my revolver shooting stuff. I have hundreds of groups at 100 yards under 1", many to 1/2" and groups at 500 yards of 2-1/2".

[philzilla]

Great info guys

[Shumkles]

Lots of interesting stuff I can use. thanks

[northernlead]

I have the 49th and 50th ,if anyone needs the 49th,I'll send it to you. pm me

[northernlead]

At my cousin's last year we were shooting 4 or 5 pistols,iam no great shot,so I asked him,a marine,whats my problem. He weigh it for a minute,and said shake my hand with the grip you use on your revolver's,so I shook his hand and he said to light.Grip pressure can make a difference.

[gray wolf]

Lloyd,

I had been wondering when someone that's been here a while was gonna call ******** on that! I have 4 Ruger revolvers, at present, and I shoot them well and often. I know I certainly can't produce 1" 50 yard groups with them, and I figure the shooter that could is rare. Hell, for that matter, in this day and age, most folks couldn't do it with a benchrest rifle held in a vise!

By my figuring, if you're saying you can do this, you're:

A.) A ****ed liar

B.)My personal hero and a past or future olympian

C.)Too stupid to know better

OR, most likely,

D.) You have no idea how far 50 yards is. I see this all the time.

Ruger super red hawk, different bullets, different loads.
Most guns can shoot,most people can't shoot them well.
213518

[lazs]

Since this is a cast bullet forum. I am gonna say that a revolver that has either really big throats or way too small (smaller than bore) throats or mismatched ones is simply not going to shoot accurately 99% of the time. My most accurate revolver is probly my Dan Wesson hv 44 mag with .429 throats and .429 bore... I have good days and bad days shooting. I test my loads and handguns at 25 yards from sandbags.

If my front sight is fuzzy... I will do poorly. this can be because the sun hits it hard or my eyes that day or just because it has a ramp front sight.. which is never as sharp as a patridge sight for me. Those glow tube horrors are hopeless for me.

It takes a lot of concentration to get a good 5 or six shot group. even if the gun and the load is perfect. I recognize human error and fatigue. I will quit shooting when my groups make no sense that day. I am a decent shot. I may have shot hundreds of thousands of handgun rounds in my life... I was a bit better when I was younger. My groups are rarely as good or consistent as Gray Wolfs ones above.. mostly I will have 3 or even 4 touching and a flier or two almost doubling the size. All else being equal the fliers are on me.

My goal is to find a good load for the gun not to see how consistent and immune to fatigue/recoil I am. A gunwriter (well several) lately said that in his experience a good shot will put 3 out of 5 (best 3) into a group from sandbags that is equal to a machines 5 shot group. this makes a lot of sense to me.

For my purposes this works really well. I am a plinker when not testing loads.. I shoot rocks and two liters and adult beverage cans at 20-100 or so yards with my handguns. If I hit a two liter at 100 yards once or twice out of six I feel pretty good... If I hit a gallon jug at that distance 5 out of six I feel pretty good.

For revolvers... My Dan Wesson 44 and my Smith 629 and my Python are all outstanding shooters with my cast bullets. None of my Rugers are as good.. they are good but not in the same league. Not saying some Ruger will not outshoot some Smith. To me.. the front sight simply has to be sharply focused.

lazs

[trentvb]

In reference to #1 on the front page of the thread, anyone know the go-to mold for 45 LC?

[Rubino1988]

A beginner’s guide to ……revolver accuracy

1. Start with a bullet that has a reputation for being a good bullet. A few examples are: the 250 K in 44, the H&G 68 in .45 acp, and the H&G 51 in 357. Is this bullet going to be used as a hunting, target, plinking, or combat load? This will be a factor in what bullet design you decide to use. You might want a round nose bullet to use in a speedloader or a swc for hunting. I have found that a plain base bullet will often shoot better than a bevel based bullet in the same design. Wheel weights are great raw material for casting revolver bullets.

2. Make sure that your lead and your molds are hot enough. Many of the more experienced casters run their pots at maximum heat. You can preheat your molds on a hotplate while your pot is coming up to temperature. I cut a wood block to hold my mold handles so the mold can sit flat on the plate while it preheats.

3. Start with powders that are known to give good accuracy with cast bullets. 2400, AA#9, and 296 are good powders for max loads. Bullseye, 231, and Unique are good powders for midrange and target loads. Work up your loads in increments of .3 of a grain of powder. You should be able to see trends in the groups. You can always try more powders if these don’t work for you.

4. Start with a good lube. There are many good recipes for lube, but if you buy a good one to start with, you can eliminate a variable while you are beginning. After you are doing well in your casting and sizing, then it would be time to experiment with different lubes if you want. Your budget will have to decide what method of lubing and sizing you are going to use.

5. Check the barrel with a push through slug to see if there are any restrictions, particularly where the barrel is screwed into the frame. If there is a restriction, firelapp using LBT’s techniques until the restriction is gone. Slug the barrel to see what size it is. A bullet one thousandth over bore size often works well.

6. The cylinder exit hole should not be smaller than the size of the bullet you are sending down range. Have a gunsmith open up the cylinder holes so your bullets are not swaged down before they enter the barrel. This is also something you can do yourself. The ultimate boolit size is that which requires felt finger pressure friction when pushed through the Largest cylinder exit. The size chosen should not be so large as to cause a loaded cartridge to have any felt friction when placed into the Smallest cylinder

7. At this point you need to decide what your accuracy goals are. Will you only shoot at combat distances, or are you going to shoot at longer ranges, or is the ultimate goal to shoot silhouette at 100 or 200 meters?

8. Test your loads by shooting your gun off the bench. If at all possible, put optics on the gun that you will be testing. The optics can help you remove human error while you shoot for groups. You can take the optics off after testing if you want. You may find that the point of impact often varies when shooting from the bench and shooting offhand. You should shoot groups at the distances you intend to shoot. You may find that many bullet/powder combinations will fall apart at 50 yards and beyond.

9. Keep targets and accurate records. Check and see if groups are round, or elongated. The shape of the groups can be indicators of problems with grip and technique. I also think you should consider adding a chronograph to you toolkit. Knowing your velocity is an important ingredient in working up loads. I don’t have one yet, but I will in the future.

10. Enjoy yourself. There is quite a bit of satisfaction in shooting the bullets you cast, not to mention the savings. I load and cast so I can shoot more for the money I spend. I like being able to shoot a bucket full of ammo instead of a couple boxes of store bought bullets. good info thank you!

[Rubino1988]

Good info thank you!

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I seldom shoot my pistols on the bench and I seldom shoot at paper beyond 25 yards. Often I shoot at a 6" gong at 50 yards and am satisfied with that accuracy wise because that is sufficient for deer hunting or defense. And I shoot only iron sights. Good off hand practical accuracy does the trick for me. A couple hundred rounds a month is enough to keep me sharp though more never hurts.