Granulation size question

[oneokie]

What problems if any would be encountered if one substitutes fffg for ffg? Would the charge weight need to be reduced?

[The Double D]

There is a difference on burn rates. The finer burns faster and will be more energetic. If you reduced the charge weight you have to deal the resulting increase in air space. That's less onerous than it sounds. I would be more inclined to change brands of FFg before changing granulations. Not all brands of the same granualtion shoot the same. Then if I didn't get the results I was looking for I might consider a finer or coarser granualtion.

[oneokie]

That's less onerous than it sounds.

Wouldn't overpowder wads take care of that?

Reason I ask is that I have quite a bit of the fffg.

What is different with the 'cartridge' powder granulation size? Have seen references to it being different somehow, but nothing specific.

Are there any good reference books that would help one understand the differences in burn rates between the different sizes of powder?

[Buckshot]

Wouldn't overpowder wads take care of that?

Reason I ask is that I have quite a bit of the fffg.

What is different with the 'cartridge' powder granulation size? Have seen references to it being different somehow, but nothing specific.

Are there any good reference books that would help one understand the differences in burn rates between the different sizes of powder?

Going from 2Fg to 3Fg of the same makers powder might not be a big issue, but it would also depend upon what cartridge and rifle it was being fired in.

Overpowder wads certainly could take up the airspace. That's exactly what the US Military arsenals did to take up the space in the 45-70 for the 55.0gr charges used in the carbines.

All the makers of BP use the granule size numeration (fastest to slowest) of 4F, 3F, 2F, 1F, and maybe 'C' for cannon powder. There is also a 1.5F used by a couple companies, but also 'Cartridge' can be figured in there for the 1.5F granulation. So far as I know there is no chart showing the pressure per measurement of each producers different granulations in comparison to other manufacturers powder. However each granulation is numbered via the screen sieve size it will not pass through, and the sieve size is inductry wide.

Since each one of the makers uses the same "F" designation, it would be neat if there was such a chart as burn rate by manufacturer. I do know that at one time, the Swiss BP was about the most energetic powder unit for unit comparison there was out there. It's still one of the best IMHO. I'd almost say that the Swiss 2Fg powder would equal the pressure of some Elephant 3Fg I have on hand.

..............Buckshot

[montana_charlie]

What is different with the 'cartridge' powder granulation size?
If you are asking about the powder named 'Cartidge' made by Goex...it is 2F powder that has been polished, graphite-coated, and more carefully screened to eliminate fines.

CM

[John Boy]

Here's the hold - pass percentages for Goex:
2Fg, regular production.
20 mesh - 79.2% retained
30 mesh - 20.8% retained

3Fg, regular production.
20 mesh - trace retained
30 mesh - 70.8% retained
40 mesh - 26.2% retained
Thru - 3.0%

Goex Cartridge, I understand, has granulation percentages between 2F and 3F

[shooter575]

Another thing to consider is every lot of powder is diffrent.Being made of natural ingredence no two supplyers will ever be exactly the same.I have just accepted it and work around.For example with batch of 2006 goex fff I am using now My point of impact changed...A bunch. My 50 yard 6:00 sight changed to be dead on at 100.This is with two diffrent guns using that powder.A 55 rifle in .58 and a .50 smith breechloading carbine. Same powder load,bullet etc.
I have allways had to do a bit of fudging when ever I get a new lot. +- 5% or so. But this one is the bigest change I have ever had. Stuff groups well,just shoots higher.
I feel sorry for guys that buy a can at a time.I buy in keg lots so I only need to resight every year or two.

[iron mule]

the basic rule or guide line is to use 3f in 40 cal or smaller 3f or 2f in 45 cal and 2f in larger cals this is just a basic general guide each gun and powder has it's on individual likes and dislikes ---- 3f does burn a might faster than 2f but the size of the grais is not the only thing that determines burn rate weight of bullet -- amount of compression or lack of---fouling of barrel -- and more all these effect burn rate and pressures of blak powder////mule

[oneokie]

You people are great!
Another question; What is the storage life of Black? Stored in a controlled environment? Less than 80* F and <50% humidity.

[shooter575]

That one is easy.....Forever or as close as we will ever get to it. I remember a show that that famious French diver [whats his name]raised a Bronze cannon fron the sea bed that had been spiked.Went down in the 1600s.Anyway they pulled the round and removed the powder and it would burn.
A shooting buddy came acress a lb og sporting powder from the 1890s He shot it up and it worked just fine.

[KCSO]

In the old Buckskin Report they ran a test one time and 90 grains of FFF gave the same velocity as 110 of FFg with the powder they tested. In an original Sharps 70 grains of FFF would back out the primer and 70 of FF would not with Goex. So triple has more oomph. But in certain guns FFF burns cleaner and cleans a little easier. I have shot FFF in my trapdoor when I got a buy on it I just swabbed a little more often and put a felt wad under the bullet.

Buckshot.

I had some FA made in the 80's and the carbine loads had a paper tube in them to take up the space.

[waksupi]

i did find out last weekend, Schutzen powder is apparently hotter than GOEX, or Elephant. I went to a turkey shoot, and took my English sportiong rifle. I hadn't shot it in over a year, having been using my smoothbores almost exclusively, so hadn't thought about workingup a load with the new powder. Accuracy was terrible with the Schutzen. I dropped the charge by eyeball, and things got better. I benched it on Sunday, and ended up a full ten grains less Schutzen powder, then Elephant, for the same accuracy level.

[MtGun44]

I traded into 4 lbs of GOEX FFFFg, which I believe is intended for flintlock
pan priming. I was hoping to use this in my two BP Colt revolver
replicas - 36 cal and 44 cal.

Any experience with this? Did I screw up and get something I can't
use? :neutral:

I'm guessing to start at maybe half the normal charge and see how
the performance is and increase slowly, maybe chrono to see what
sort of pressures I'm getting.

Any guidance? Can this produce dangerous pressures?

Can 4Fg be used in large caliber muzzle loading rifles (like .50)?

Thanks.

Bill

[KCSO]

Don't use the 4 f in revolvers. It is too fine and will back into the nipples and will cake like crazy. If it backs into the nipples you get woosh boom and the fouling after only 4 shots will be so hard and crusty it will ruin the accuracy.

[montana_charlie]

I traded into 4 lbs of GOEX FFFFg, which I believe is intended for flintlock pan priming.
Yep, that's what it is for...sorry.
CM

[MtGun44]

KCSO,

Thanks for the reply!
Sounds like you have tried to use FFFFg in revolvers. :)

I'm willing to experiment with lubes and loads and learn some of the same
lessons of fouling, lost accy, etc. The key question is -- it is unsafe?

:confused:

Could it be used in 38-55 cartridge loads safely? What about
.45 Colt loads? How about duplex loads in these calibers? I have
an original 50-70 RB and would like to use it in that, too.

I'm OK with failure, as long as it doesn't involve shrapnel or damage
to my guns.

I am not doubting that there are issues, but I have the stuff and
wouldn't mind fooling around and seeing if I can use it, as long as the
pressures won't be a problem.

OTOH, if somebody wants to buy some or all of it for a good price . . . . . :-D

Bill

[iron mule]

hello MTGUN44 as to the ffffg do not use it as the main charge for any gun muzzle loader or cartridge as you stated it is used to prime flintlocks about the only other use i can think for it would be in very small calibers or blanks/// you could use it in a duplex bp load example here only don not use this as a load work up to this 45-70 bp duplex would be 10 grns volume 4f under 55 grns volume 2f make sure no air space is left in the case remember this is just an example actual charge must be worked up for your gun and the cases you use/// also remember bp charges are by volume not by actual weight of charge /// i hope this helps----mule

[montana_charlie]

I have an original 50-70 RB and would like to use it in that, too.
If you are going to ask for information...and ignore it...then go ahead, Bud.
Load up that big fifty original with 70 grains of 4Fg and touch it off.

Maybe you'll prove that what everybody has been saying for a couple of centuries is just hogwash.
CM

[MtGun44]

Montana charlie -

I am sorry if I made you mad by asking for help. :confused:

You are telling me that everyone knows for a couple of centuries. I'm sorry,
but I didn't know what the issues are and was asking for help in understanding
what the rules are with different granulations of black powder.

I wonder why just a straight answer wouldn't work, and you feel the need
to use sarcasm?

I guess I need to imply from your respponse that FFFFg will cause
overpressures when used in cartridges, but I still wonder why someone
couldn't just give me a straight answer to what seemed like fairly simple
questions.

Sorry to bother you, by trying to learn more about using blackpowder. :-?

Bill

[testhop]

What problems if any would be encountered if one substitutes fffg for ffg? Would the charge weight need to be reduced?
:Fire: :coffee:
you never said if you was useing a m. l . but if you were i have used both 3f and 2f in my 50 cal T.C. hawken droping the load 10 grs before moveing up i couldnt see the advanage of useing the faster powder



tom:castmine:

[Boz330]

I don't know this from personal experience, but there is a gentleman on another forum that I frequent that works in the ballistic and explosives industry that addressed this. His company developed BP loads that would blow up a modern
AK-47. And IIRC it was using 4F. This was for a dirty tricks plan during Viet Nam.
If it were me I would be very hesitant to use it for full loads in anything. In duplexing there might be a problem with it getting in between the courser powder and not doing what you are looking for.
On the up side you now have a reason to get a flint lock. Or you could make firecrackers from it.

Bob

[montana_charlie]

I wonder why just a straight answer wouldn't work, and you feel the need to use sarcasm?
How's this for a straight answer, Bill?
You opened the subject by saying you believe 4Fg is intended as priming powder in flintlocks (Post #13). I answered by saying you are correct (Post #15).

How much straighter did you need it to be?
CM

[MtGun44]

"Intended for" ....

Some of the military surplus powders discussed are INTENDED for 20mm
cannons, or 50 BMG or 50 spotter rounds. The experienced users often
help new people to understand what OTHER uses these powders might be put
SAFELY to since they are cheaper than the alternative.

I still am not sure whether 4Fg is UNSAFE to use for a pistol cartridge,
a rifle cartridge or in a muzzle loading rifle or revolver. I did get some
useful feed back that there are likely to be fouling and accuracy issues,
much the same when using 50 BMG surplus powders for .30-30 or some
other cartridge.

I'm willing to risk making a gun harder to clean or possibly having difficulty
developing an accurate load. I am trying to understand if it is unsafe
to use 4Fg as a substitute for, say 3Fg powder in various applications.

It seems like a simple question. Is it unsafe to use 4 Fg in other applications,
or does it just require some adjustment in load levels or risk of poor
accuracy results and difficulty with fouling? I know that black powder is
different, and have seen article claiming that "quantity of powder is unimportant
since black powder can't generate unsafe pressures". I know I have
read that, but really don't know if it is true, either.

I guess I'm trying to figure out what I have done to get your
back up? :confused: I'm trying to get some information and somehow
I seem to have made you mad. I did not intend to, and am trying
hard not to cause any strife. I love this board and have always had lots
of friendly advice offered in the past.

Bill

[MtGun44]

Boz330,

Thanks for the info. If 4Fg will blow up a modern rifle, sounds like is acts
dramatically different than 3Fg, which is surprising, but what I was afraid
of. Perhaps there is some critical grain size below which you can't take
blackpowder and have it act as a propellant. Sounds like I need to sell
or trade it to a flintlock shooter or take your advice and make some
firecrackers out of it.

Bill

[Boz330]

I'll try to locate that post and link to it. The search funtion on that forum doesn't work for stored posts so not sure how much luck I'll have.

Bob

[MtGun44]

Boz330,

Thanks. I'd appreciate any additional info on the subject you know of.

Bill

[RBak]

I'm going to throw in my two cents FWIW......:roll:

I've been shooting Black Powder for well over fifty years, starting back in the 1950's when such things were not very popular at all and, although I have seen a lot of powders come and go, I have never seen FFFFg used for anything other than priming flintlocks.
With my own flintklocks, a one pound can of Goex FFFFg will last me well over a year but I shoot both caps and rocks, and I sometimes use 3Fg for priming.

Although I didn't see it happen, I did see the results of what happened when it was tried in a 1860 OA Colt......it "supposedly" fired fine, for the first and second shot, and then blew the cylinder on the third shot.
I did get to see the revolver, about a month later, and I only wish I had pictures.
(This was a few years ago before I got a digital camera, which I now take with me a lot more than I did that big ol' Cannon AE.)

The cylinder from the revolver, found a day after this happened, looked almost normal with the exception that the cylinder was empty, and there was a slight crack on both sides of the cylinder.
The barrel and the front of the frame was pointed down at an odd angle, and, thankfully, the shooter recieved only a "sprained / twisted" wrist since he was shooting one handed. All of this from what was supposed to be a 25gr charge!

Of course I asked the obivous question, "how did you mistake 4Fg for 3Fg?"...the answer was "it was no mistake, it was deliberate", because someone told him he could use it.

Was this a case of using the wrong powder, or did it all happen from "flash over"?

Personally, I don't know, although I have sat and listened to every possible scenario from those who calim to know more than the average dog.

Still yet, I would never use 4Fg in any cartridge case! And, I would recommend that nobody else does either.

Is it as dangerous as I think it might be? .........I'm not real sure. But I am sure that of all the powder that I have used over the years, FFFFg has my respect the most.

Russ....

[martinibelgian]

FWIW, W.W. Greener warns in his book specifically about realoading BP rounds with too fine a powder, stating that it could cause detontations and burst the barrel - he even included a pic...

[Boz330]

Spent some time trying to locate that post, but had no luck.

Gert, do you remember that post by fifthhorseman? Just looking for some back up, I'd forget my own name if it wasn't on my drivers license.
In any case I think there is enough info to show that it might be a bad idea.

Bob

[montana_charlie]

I seem to have made you mad.
Nope...not 'mad'...because I'm not that 'personally involved'.

It's just that everybody was telling you the same thing in (about) the same words, and you were still hanging on to using your priming powder for main charges. And...a 50 caliber rifle was even one of your projected 'victims'.

Many people feel that 2Fg is too fine for a fifty.

I just thought that I would come at you from an unexpected angle...to see if we could get you 'thinking' instead of 'dreaming'.

If the shock to your system was uncomfortable...it was much less debilitating than what a 50/70 full of 4Fg would have left you with...
CM

[MtGun44]

I thank the people that have given clear answers that 4Fg is unsafe.
I'll be sure not to use it for a main charge since there is good info
that it isn't safe. I looked at several blackpowder books and while
each had a section on what the different grades were used for, I
never found one that said anything in the FFFFg section that mentioned
not to use it for main charges. It is clear that the finer granulations
are faster burning by the intended applications, but it was never
just stated 'don't use for main charge' or anything like that. It seemed
like using Bullseye for a main charge, so I was leery of it, but wanted
to see if anyone had the facts. Thanks again.

As to the unclear answers - the hints and implied answers. They
still never answered the simple question of safety.

Bill

[martinibelgian]

Yup, 5thhorseman once put up a nice post on the subject, the man is 'of the trade', so would know what he is talking about... Don't have his post handy somewhere though.

[crossfireoops]

My baseline.......

If moving from a volumetric charge of 2FG to 3FG puts you at risk, .....the arm is unsafe with ANY BP.
............and 4FG is for priming Flinters,......ONLY.

GTC