10mm/.40

[domainfitz]

Can i use the same load data for 10mm and .40? Since the difference in bullet is .400 and .401. I should be able to shoot the 10mm through my .40 right? If i reload the 10mm bullet into a .40 case, there is no difference.

[6bg6ga]

Can i use the same load data for 10mm and .40? Since the difference in bullet is .400 and .401. I should be able to shoot the 10mm through my .40 right? If i reload the 10mm bullet into a .40 case, there is no difference.



Your wrong.. The 40 and the 10mm are both .400 The case length on the 10mm is .992 and the 40 is .850

You cannot interchange them. Keep the 40 in the 40 and the 10 in the 10 unless you would like to welcome trouble.

[500MAG]

The bullet may be the same but the load data for the two cartridges are different.

[6bg6ga]

Check out http://www.reloaderammo.com for some reliable loads for the 40 cal and the 10mm.

[6bg6ga]

The bullet may be the same but the load data for the two cartridges are different.

That is what I'm trying to say

[6bg6ga]

A load for a 40cal may be 180gr bullet 5.5 gr of bullseye and for the 10mm 180gr bullet 6.4 gr bullseye

[500MAG]

That is what I'm trying to say

Yes, the boolit is the same used in different cases for the 10mm and the 40 cal s&w. The load data is different for the same weight boolit in the two different caliber cases. The only thing that is the same is the boolit itself.

[500MAG]

A load for a 40cal may be 180gr bullet 5.5 gr of bullseye and for the 10mm 180gr bullet 6.4 gr bullseye

Yes, and that's close to max as far as lyman manual is concerned.

[6bg6ga]

Yes, and that's close to max as far as lyman manual is concerned.

Your correct at max. The proper way to do it is to start the load 10% or more under the max and watch for signs of pressure/ flattened primers, split cases and so forth.

I do NOT recommend lead for these loads UNLESS is says a lead bullet and even then I will reduce the load.

[Tar Heel]

Can i use the same load data for 10mm and .40? Since the difference in bullet is .400 and .401. I should be able to shoot the 10mm through my .40 right? If i reload the 10mm bullet into a .40 case, there is no difference.

NO! They are two different cartridges.

[6bg6ga]

83868

Picture of 40 cal and 10mm note* the difference in length

[grumman581]

You will probably not be able to chamber a 10mm cartridge in a .40SW firearm. I'm not going to say that it is *impossible* since a person could (at least theoretically) radically resize / taper crimp the loaded round down to the point where it might be able to chamber in a .40SW firearm. Basically something like the fact that a square peg will fit in a round hole with a big enough hammer. :)

For rounds that are the correct dimensions and for chambers that are also the correct dimensions, you will not be loading a 10mm cartridge into a .40SW chamber. A .40SW cartridge will physically fit in a 10mm chamber, but it will likely fall too far into the chamber for the firing pin to strike it. Now, with the Glock 10mm models, it is a slightly different story if you are loading the magazine. The extractor will hold a .40SW cartridge well enough that you can fire it in the 10mm chamber.

Assuming that you are using the same powder (type and weight) in both .40SW and 10mm, you should get less pressure in the 10mm and subsequently lower velocity due to the differences in case length. Given two loads that have identical velocities and bullet weights in .40SW and 10mm, the 10mm round will need slightly more powder. Even though many of the commercial 10mm rounds are only slightly faster than .40SW rounds, I would advise against taking 10mm load data and applying it directly to a .40SW load since it is going to result in more pressure. Whether that pressure is going to be more than you should be using for the .40SW firearm that you are using is something that you might find out rather spectacularly.

What type of .40SW firearm are you talking about?

[6bg6ga]

One last thing from me.... The 40 and the 10mm are very finiky as to the overall length and the crimp. I have seen guns blown up because of the fact the bullet moved ever so slightly and decreased the OAL thus resulting in a heck of a lot more pressure and boom the gun is gone. So, if you haven't loaded either I suggest that you have someone watch over you and check your work until you get the hang of it. So, make sure the crimp is tight and the length is right and you should be ok.

[domainfitz]

I understand the cases are different. But the boolit is the same right? So i can put .400 into a .40 s&w case. Thats what i'm needing to know. I'll use the .40 case in the .40 gun but just wan't completly sure about the dia of the bullet. I've reloaded about 500 rounds of .401. and i have some .400 hollow points i wanna load for my px4.

[500MAG]

I understand the cases are different. But the boolit is the same right? So i can put .400 into a .40 s&w case. Thats what i'm needing to know. I'll use the .40 case in the .40 gun but just wan't completly sure about the dia of the bullet. I've reloaded about 500 rounds of .401. and i have some .400 hollow points i wanna load for my px4.

Yes you can use the .400 in your 40 cal. Although, you may lead the heck out of your barrel. If the boolit diameter is too small it will cause leading. If it's an j-word it may not matter.

[grumman581]

Yes you can use the .400 in your 40 cal. Although, you may lead the heck out of your barrel. If the boolit diameter is too small it will cause leading. If it's an j-word it may not matter.

I don't reload using jacketed bullets, but from what I understand, aren't the jacketed bullets that you buy for the .40SW/10mm sized at .400 and the commercial lead bullets sized at .401?

[6bg6ga]

The poster didn't mention lead or jacketed bullets in his first post. Jacketed bullets run .400 and lead are usually .001 larger. Personally I will have a mold made to throw a .402 or a tad larger and then size it to .4015 or .402 Your not going to lead your barrel with a jacketed bullet of .400 diameter. Leading is going to be a combination of several factors first the barrel diameter and secondly the velocity of the bullet. Depending on HOW the barrel slugs a .401 or possibly even larger WILL be necessary in order to obtain a no leading condition. That plus reduced velocities. Now, a gas check could be applied to the bullet if the mold was designed for that. Keep the load below about 900fps and you should be ok. There are several loads listed with a 200gr lead bullet 200gre WST 3.5gr 760 fps and 200gr bullet WSF and 920 fps.

[domainfitz]

Sorry. The boolits are 135 grain jacketed hollow points from nosler.

[domainfitz]

One last thing from me.... The 40 and the 10mm are very finiky as to the overall length and the crimp. I have seen guns blown up because of the fact the bullet moved ever so slightly and decreased the OAL thus resulting in a heck of a lot more pressure and boom the gun is gone. So, if you haven't loaded either I suggest that you have someone watch over you and check your work until you get the hang of it. So, make sure the crimp is tight and the length is right and you should be ok.

I usually don't crimp the .40. Havn't had a problem with OAL's

[hawgfan]

I usually don't crimp the .40. Havn't had a problem with OAL's

I'm with you, I have never crimped any of my 40cal loads. I might be wrong by doing this, but I have never had a problem.

I have used used 10mm hollow points with my 40cal cases, you should be fine.

[6bg6ga]

Take an old fools advice here.... The bullet can and does move back into the case and this increases the pressure and will blow up the gun. I have seen a case of a blown up 40 cal due to the fact the loader didn't crimp his bullets. Don't be stupid here ....listen to older folks and practice proper loadning techniques.

This is a high pressure caliber.... take a look at the cup pressure in a reloading book. Its not forgiving like the old 45acp is.

Anything bullet wise that you reload in the 40 can be loaded into the 10mm. I just don't see the merit in using more powder in order to use the 135gr in the 10mm. A safe load for the 135gr in the 10mm should be something along the line of 7.6> gr of Bullseye or something along this line.

[r1kk1]

To add to the above post, I take my calipers to the range and check the overall length of what I load in the magazine, fire two or three and recheck overall length of the unfired cartridges in the magazine. If there is a change, I need a little more crimp. Load development can be tedious and take time. A crimp helps with firearm function in this case.

Take care

r1kk1

[domainfitz]

I'm with you, I have never crimped any of my 40cal loads. I might be wrong by doing this, but I have never had a problem.

I have used used 10mm hollow points with my 40cal cases, you should be fine.


Thanks

[6bg6ga]

To add to the above post, I take my calipers to the range and check the overall length of what I load in the magazine, fire two or three and recheck overall length of the unfired cartridges in the magazine. If there is a change, I need a little more crimp. Load development can be tedious and take time. A crimp helps with firearm function in this case.

Take care

r1kk1

Reloading using logic. Have done the same thing. When one finds that the bullet has shifted more crimp is needed.

[W.R.Buchanan]

domainfitz: You are playing with fire! Not crimping a bullet in a .40 S&W is downright dangerous! If the bullet is shifted back into the case only .020 it will cause a pressure spike you may not survive.

Of all the cartridges known to man this one is THE ONE you want to do correctly!

This is a high pressure round at 35,000 psi. It is also one of the, if not THE, most finicky rounds you can reload.

It is not one to "by gosh and by golly." And just because you haven't had any problems yet doesn't mean you should go looking for them.

You need to use Midrange loading data for this cartridge. The taper crimp should measure .417-.418 at the case mouth after crimp. OAL will vary due to the type and size of bullet you use, but will normally be between 1.115 and 1.135.

And just because someone agrees with you doesn't mean you're right. It just means there are more of you in the danger zone.

If you search this site form info on loading the .40S&W you will find lots and lots of data. I suggest you do that, and the fact that you didn't know the difference between .40 cal. and 10MM bullets leads me to believe you could use some education on this subject.

Randy

[domainfitz]

That's why i was asking. I keep my OAL around 1.125 and load on the lighter side cause i just started in order to "control" i guess you may say some of the danger. I have only made around 400 rounds. Instead of taper crimp wouldn't the Factory Crimp Die suffice?

[David2011]

Randy is absolutely correct in everything he said. All .40 S&W and 10mm should be taper crimped and checked with a micrometer for setup. There aren't any more demanding cartridges to have to get right every time. I've read reasonably well documented cases where law enforcement officers have had kabooms when they fired a rund that had been ejected and put back in the magazine time after time when they unloaded at the end of a shift. The constant reloading set the bullet back and when it was fired the pressure spike blew up the gun. Since this behavior usually affects the top two cartridges, the forensic exam found that the remaining cartridge also had bullet setback.

I never load my .40 to factory velocities. I've shot many tens of thousands of rounds through an STI in .40 and try to have a 180 grain boolit running about 945 FPS- plenty to make IPSC major but nowhere near maximum. If I want full power .40 S&W loads as for a defensive load, I buy defensive factory ammo.

David

[cgt]

I just loaded 50 rds of 40 at 5.5 to 5.6 unique powder. 180gr bullet jacketed hp from berry oal is 1.118 to 1.120
Im little long on oal. Should this load be ok?
Xd40 4"brl

[6bg6ga]

That's why i was asking. I keep my OAL around 1.125 and load on the lighter side cause i just started in order to "control" i guess you may say some of the danger. I have only made around 400 rounds. Instead of taper crimp wouldn't the Factory Crimp Die suffice?


Please do tell what exactly you have for a die set? On this cartridge the typical crimp die in a die set would be a taper crimp. As Randy and I have both tried to point out the 40cal isn't forgiving and is one round the totally needs to be respected and loaded correctly otherwise you have a bomb in your hand and possibly one that you will not walk away from.

For your understanding... a taper crimp is used in EVERY round that is meant for an semi automatic and a rolled crimp is used in say a 38 special that is being fired in a wheel gun.

Every every every round is crimped period unless you have a fond wish to meet your maker.

r1KK1, Randy, David and I have tried to point out the dangers in reloading the 40cal and 10mm.

This isn't the only cartridge that can get you into trouble. Anything with high cup pressures is an accident waiting to happen when not done correctly. My suggestion is this.... contact a friend or someone knowledgeable in reloading and have them teach you the correct ways of doing things.

[6bg6ga]

I just loaded 50 rds of 40 at 5.5 to 5.6 unique powder. 180gr bullet jacketed hp from berry oal is 1.118 to 1.120
Im little long on oal. Should this load be ok?
Xd40 4"brl

Maximum load would probably be in the 6.4 grain range with Unique. Now, this isn't a load that your going to start out with but rather you will start lower and go up a tenth of a grain at a time monitoring the pressure signs. OAL----- Some might disagree with my way but I go for fit in the magazine as well as chamber fit. Keep in mind the OAL lengths that are available in reloading handbooks. If you don't have a reloading handbook then purchase one. They aren't cheap but your life has to be worth something as well. You simple don't cut corners when it comes to reloading.


Being long..... well, it has to fit the chamber and also the magazine so if it does both then no problem. Having a slightly longer round lowers the pressure a little.

[cgt]

Agree on your comment. I habe lymans manual.

[r1kk1]

A crimp does several duties depending on the application it is used for. In semi-auto pistols, and rifles that utilize a magazine or magazine well, and tubular magazines in lever action rifles, it serves to control the overall length of a load. Recoil can dramatically shorten the overall length of the remaining unfired cartridges in the magazine. Think of the lever action rifle that incorporates a tubular magazine. Cartridges are stacked on top of each other. If you fully load the magazine, the first cartridge chambered will have the weight of all the others bearing down on it. Now fire the first cartridge and recoil will apply more force to the remaking unfired cartridges. If no crimp is used, the remaining cartridges will get shorter and shorter overall lengths until the last one is fired.

In firearms that utilize a magazine or magazine well, recoil on the remaining cartridges that are uncrimped can result in shortening the overall length as well.

A crimp can help protect the tips of bullets from the battering effects of recoil as well.

A crimp can help a revolver with hard recoiling rounds from the overall length of getting longer and tying the cylinder up. Been there, done that with 300 gr cast in 44 magnum.

A crimp can help with powder burn. I have seen powders shoot cleaner and with less what appears as unburned powder go away with enough crimp.

A crimp can help tighten up groups depending on the application.

A crimp can help with uniformity of your load using a chronograph. Try it.

I use a Lyman manual and it shows crimp diameter specs. I use this and then go to to the range to load test. The round needs to function reliably at first. The remaining rounds are checked for overall length and checked against the effects of recoil. I may need more or less crimp at this stage of testing. My chronograph readings are useful at gathering information as well as group size. The next stage I may need to increase the powder charge. I do the same stuff over again. Checking and rechecking. I may find a load using x powder, y primer and z bullet or I may not.

I know from loading the 40, it is NOT my favorite cartridge to load for. It can be finicky as the firearm is. I will not reuse Blue Dot powder in this cartridge as it was not a good choice with 180 grain cast bullets in MY firearm. Important because I'm loading for my firearm not anyone's else.

Use as much crimp as needed to get the job done.

The crimp has many roles. Just something to think about.

Take care and be safe,

r1kk1

[Mohillbilly]

9mm is a high pressure one as well , and subject to the set back also depending on what gun you use it in . THE key is what gun you are going to put what load in . I use ( and code ) 45 ACP in my Colt gold cup nat match , 1917 , And say my Freedom Arms 83 ACP cylinder . My 10mm/.40 S&W loads will blow lots of guns that I shoot safely . I have a Beretta , Ruger Buckeye (38-40 , 10 mm ) , and a LAR Grizzly with a 10 mm conversion . TC owners know about these sort of things too . My Grizzly shoots .45 Winchester magnum (Winmag) and the factory loads a canalure cases to prevent bullet set back during the pistols loading cycle .

[grumman581]

Please do tell what exactly you have for a die set?

Since he said "factory crimp die", he's probably talking about the Lee dies.

http://leeprecision.com/reloading-dies/hand-gun-dies/lee-carbide-factory-crimp-die

Personally, I like to use the Lee Factory Crimp Die since it allows me to separate the bullet seating operation from the crimping operation.

[domainfitz]

Please do tell what exactly you have for a die set? On this cartridge the typical crimp die in a die set would be a taper crimp. As Randy and I have both tried to point out the 40cal isn't forgiving and is one round the totally needs to be respected and loaded correctly otherwise you have a bomb in your hand and possibly one that you will not walk away from.

For your understanding... a taper crimp is used in EVERY round that is meant for an semi automatic and a rolled crimp is used in say a 38 special that is being fired in a wheel gun.

Every every every round is crimped period unless you have a fond wish to meet your maker.

r1KK1, Randy, David and I have tried to point out the dangers in reloading the 40cal and 10mm.

This isn't the only cartridge that can get you into trouble. Anything with high cup pressures is an accident waiting to happen when not done correctly. My suggestion is this.... contact a friend or someone knowledgeable in reloading and have them teach you the correct ways of doing things.

I have the lee 4 piece die set. Comes with the Resizer/deprimer, powder dispenser/flaring, seating die, and a Factory crimp die. I heard from somewhere that the seating die crimps also.

[grumman581]

I have the lee 4 piece die set. Comes with the Resizer/deprimer, powder dispenser/flaring, seating die, and a Factory crimp die. I heard from somewhere that the seating die crimps also.

Yes, the seating die can be setup to taper crime while it is pushing the bullet to the desired depth. I find that I get more lead shaved when that happens, so I prefer to set the depth in one stage and perform the crimp in another stage. Maybe if I only had 3-stage presses, I would feel differently. :)

[6bg6ga]

Since he said "factory crimp die", he's probably talking about the Lee dies.

http://leeprecision.com/reloading-dies/hand-gun-dies/lee-carbide-factory-crimp-die

Personally, I like to use the Lee Factory Crimp Die since it allows me to separate the bullet seating operation from the crimping operation.

I've never owned any Lee dies. I own RCBS and Dillon only. I prefer a separate seating and a separate crimping die and that way things get done correctly, accurately, and are consistant.

[David2011]

New .40 loaders: We're really glad you are participating here. We hope to prevent a disaster on your part. For an example of how touchy the .40 can be, this is one experience I had. A few years ago I had not had time to cast my own for an area USPSA match so I bought cast boolits at a local gun store. That' variable #1. I was also trying a new to me powder. That's variable #2. For all practical purposes, I was starting from scratch.

For USPSA/IPSC matches it's important to make major power factor with a little room (extra velocity) to spare so you don't get scored at minor power levels. The power factor is (weight x velocity divided by 1000) and the answer has to be 165 or greater. Making 164.999 does not get rounded up and scoring is at heavy penalties for not making major. For a 180 grain bullet that threshhold is 917 FPS- well below full house factory loads of about 1050 fps. I loaded up a ladder of cartridges at 0.2 grain intervals; five rounds of each charge. All loads were within the limits of the loading manual for a cast boolit using that powder. I began to fire the rounds over my chronograph and record the results. The set of rounds that were 0.6 grains below max hit the maximum factory velocity for a 180 grain jacket bullet. That was really unexpected. Had I not worked up and chrongraphed I could have been shooting dangerous loads, possibly more than the gun could handle. The gun is the STI in my avatar and is stronger than many .40s but that much overcharge could have been destructive to gun and shooter. I was saved by the chronograph.


I just loaded 50 rds of 40 at 5.5 to 5.6 unique powder. 180gr bullet jacketed hp from berry oal is 1.118 to 1.120
Im little long on oal. Should this load be ok?
Xd40 4"brl

Welcome to CastBoolits! Not sure why you think you're long on the OAL. No, I will not tell you you're OK on OAL. SAAMI specs and every loading manual I have specify 1.135". Bullets for the .40 should never be seated short. The OAL in.40 is critical to control the loaded volume inside the cartridge. Seating too deeply WILL cause excessive pressures. Loads are developed by the reloading manual publishers based on specific bullets. In some manuals a specific OAL is published for each different bullet, not exclusive to .40 S&W. This information is important and should be observed carefully. If the exact bullet you'e using is not listed you should work up a load carefully. For loading purposes, the Berry bullets mentioned are soft lead with a thin copper plating so can be treated as plain cast lead. They are not jacketed.

When developing a load for the .40 I ALWAYS use a chronograph. That is the only readily available way without high dollar equipment to know when a max load is being approached and even that is not perfect. Some light bullets are not long enough to have enough in the case and still meet the recommended OAL. If specific information is not avaiable on those bullets, do some comparative measuring of a typical 180 grain truncated cone against the bullet you're using to assure that the volume in the loaded cartridge is as least as much as the 180 grain TC would leave. Under length rounds can also cause feeding problems in some guns.



OAL----- Some might disagree with my way but I go for fit in the magazine as well as chamber fit. Keep in mind the OAL lengths that are available in reloading handbooks.

Agreed- good advice. The magazine will never tell you to load too short.


I have the lee 4 piece die set. Comes with the Resizer/deprimer, powder dispenser/flaring, seating die, and a Factory crimp die. I heard from somewhere that the seating die crimps also.

Maybe you heard that the seating die will crimp in the instructions. Please re-read them a few times. There is good caliber specific advice in them. If you use the seating die to crimp it will cause mysterious metal rings to form in the die because it squeezes the cartridge mouth down as the bullet is still being seated. There have been some problems observed from using the Lee Factory Crimp Die because it sizes the boolit (lead boolits whioch should be sized to .401) down as they pass through the carbide ring in the die. This can lead to accuracy and leading problems. Be sure to back off the seating die body so it doesn't crimp as you seat the bullet. Adjust the seting depth with the center stem only.

Be safe!
David

[454PB]

When crimping, there's another factor to consider. I (and I'm sure many others) get a lot of my empty brass from the range where I shoot, it's probably the most commonly abandoned case found. Most of us don't trim pistol brass, and that results in non-uniform crimps. My method is to set the crimping die deeply in the press and crimp as a separate boolit seating operation by "feel".

[6bg6ga]

New .40 loaders: We're really glad you are participating here. We hope to prevent a disaster on your part. For an example of how touchy the .40 can be, this is one experience I had. A few years ago I had not had time to cast my own for an area USPSA match so I bought cast boolits at a local gun store. That' variable #1. I was also trying a new to me powder. That's variable #2. For all practical purposes, I was starting from scratch.

For USPSA/IPSC matches it's important to make major power factor with a little room (extra velocity) to spare so you don't get scored at minor power levels. The power factor is (weight x velocity divided by 1000) and the answer has to be 165 or greater. Making 164.999 does not get rounded up and scoring is at heavy penalties for not making major. For a 180 grain bullet that threshhold is 917 FPS- well below full house factory loads of about 1050 fps. I loaded up a ladder of cartridges at 0.2 grain intervals; five rounds of each charge. All loads were within the limits of the loading manual for a cast boolit using that powder. I began to fire the rounds over my chronograph and record the results. The set of rounds that were 0.6 grains below max hit the maximum factory velocity for a 180 grain jacket bullet. That was really unexpected. Had I not worked up and chrongraphed I could have been shooting dangerous loads, possibly more than the gun could handle. The gun is the STI in my avatar and is stronger than many .40s but that much overcharge could have been destructive to gun and shooter. I was saved by the chronograph.



Welcome to CastBoolits! Not sure why you think you're long on the OAL. No, I will not tell you you're OK on OAL. SAAMI specs and every loading manual I have specify 1.135". Bullets for the .40 should never be seated short. The OAL in.40 is critical to control the loaded volume inside the cartridge. Seating too deeply WILL cause excessive pressures. Loads are developed by the reloading manual publishers based on specific bullets. In some manuals a specific OAL is published for each different bullet, not exclusive to .40 S&W. This information is important and should be observed carefully. If the exact bullet you'e using is not listed you should work up a load carefully. For loading purposes, the Berry bullets mentioned are soft lead with a thin copper plating so can be treated as plain cast lead. They are not jacketed.

When developing a load for the .40 I ALWAYS use a chronograph. That is the only readily available way without high dollar equipment to know when a max load is being approached and even that is not perfect. Some light bullets are not long enough to have enough in the case and still meet the recommended OAL. If specific information is not avaiable on those bullets, do some comparative measuring of a typical 180 grain truncated cone against the bullet you're using to assure that the volume in the loaded cartridge is as least as much as the 180 grain TC would leave. Under length rounds can also cause feeding problems in some guns.




Agreed- good advice. The magazine will never tell you to load too short.



Maybe you heard that the seating die will crimp in the instructions. Please re-read them a few times. There is good caliber specific advice in them. If you use the seating die to crimp it will cause mysterious metal rings to form in the die because it squeezes the cartridge mouth down as the bullet is still being seated. There have been some problems observed from using the Lee Factory Crimp Die because it sizes the boolit (lead boolits whioch should be sized to .401) down as they pass through the carbide ring in the die. This can lead to accuracy and leading problems. Be sure to back off the seating die body so it doesn't crimp as you seat the bullet. Adjust the seting depth with the center stem only.

Be safe!
David


You couldn't ask for a better post than this one. No one can say that this poster is lacking in experience and knowledge in reloading and his specific knowledge in the 40cal. It would be best to follow his advise.

[David2011]

6bg6ba,

Thanks! Congrats on your 1000th post and first boolit! You did it in just 3 years. Took me 6.

David

[domainfitz]

I really appreciate all the advice. I'm gonna read and re-read everything so i can soak it all in. I'm not reloading casted/lead boolits anymore until i get more accustomed. I didn't like the way they reloaded or shot. Most likely from my inexperience. It'd probably be best to do Jacketed to start i think at least. Where can i get a reasonable priced chrono?

[mold maker]

6bg6ba,

Thanks! Congrats on your 1000th post and first boolit! You did it in just 3 years. Took me 6.

David
What the heck? Every post of 6bg6ba, in this thread, is #1001.....

[grumman581]

What the heck? Every post of 6bg6ba, in this thread, is #1001.....

That's the way it works... It is not your post number, but rather your current post total.

It appears that I must have also hit 1000 today (or maybe last night).

[6bg6ga]

Here I thought I was seeing things... anyway thanks guys.

domainfitz, the OAL and tight crimp applies to jacketed bullets also. David2011 has put forth a lot of good information and I suggest that you print it off and keep it as a reference when reloading. Several others have mentioned a lot of good information with your best health and safety in mind. Its not a who is right kind of thing but rather caring people trying to keep a fellow gun nut from getting hurt.

[domainfitz]

Yes i appreciate it. One more thing. I just went out and test fired some rounds i made. 135 grain Nosler JHP. (yes i crimped). Using 4.2 grains of Titegroup powder which is on the low side according to the load data's i've read. They are at a OAL of 1.123-1.126. But they didn't chamber. I don't see why either. I gauge them with my barrel. I think maybe to much charge. They were loud. Louder than any other i've shot out of my gun. But accurate at least lol. Some cases jammed sideways while others did'nt come out at all.

[cgt]

Shot the 5.6 gr unique at 1.120 and was about max compared to factory loads. Was snappy too. I like my 5.3 or even lower to plink with.

[6bg6ga]

One thing to keep in mind is pressure can also increase when the charge is on the low side. This is why the reloading manual is a must buy or borrow or copy item. Just the right amount of powder is needed to be within the safe zone. Pressure ...watch the signs.

[domainfitz]

I have a manual. But it doesn't have the titegroup powder.

[r1kk1]

data.hodgdon.com

Take care

r1kk1

[6bg6ga]

I have a manual. But it doesn't have the titegroup powder.


Pull up a burn rate chart like this one

http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Burn%20Rates_121211.pdf

[domainfitz]

It's weird. The load data for my cartridge from that site says 5.8 grns min for the 135 grn boolit. But For the 150 grn its 5.1 grns. I thought that for the lighter boolit caused for a smaller charge.

[grumman581]

It's weird. The load data for my cartridge from that site says 5.8 grns min for the 135 grn boolit. But For the 150 grn its 5.1 grns. I thought that for the lighter boolit caused for a smaller charge.

Yes, to get the same velocity, a lighter bullet will need a lighter charge than a heavier bullet. But the heavier bullet is slower to accelerate and the chamber pressure will increase -- possibly to the point where it is beyond the specifications for that caliber.

[domainfitz]

Thats kind of contradictory. If the heavier bullet needs more chamber pressure then it will need a heavier charge than a lighter one. But the load data (data.hodgdon.com) show's opposite.

[grumman581]

Thats kind of contradictory. If the heavier bullet needs more chamber pressure then it will need a heavier charge than a lighter one. But the load data (data.hodgdon.com) show's opposite.

It's not a question of "needs", but rather what it "gets". A heavier bullet is slower to get moving and as such, pressure ends up building up more. As the bullet moves, there is more chamber / barrel volume available for the expanding powder, thus the pressure will go down. If the weight of the bullet is basically zero, you can generally get away with a cartridge full of powder since there is not obstruction preventing the powder from going out the end of the barrel immediately. Notice that I said "generally" -- I'm sure that there is some combination of fast powder / bottleneck cartridge / whatever that might be an exception.

[David2011]

Yes i appreciate it. One more thing. I just went out and test fired some rounds i made. 135 grain Nosler JHP. (yes i crimped). Using 4.2 grains of Titegroup powder which is on the low side according to the load data's i've read. They are at a OAL of 1.123-1.126. But they didn't chamber. I don't see why either. I gauge them with my barrel. I think maybe to much charge. They were loud. Louder than any other i've shot out of my gun. But accurate at least lol. Some cases jammed sideways while others did'nt come out at all.

Please stop trying to load for the .40 until you have the questions sorted out. At 4.2 grains of Titegroup too much charge is not the reason you're having chambering problems. Too much powder would make the bullet hard to seat. A few posts later you said tht your manual doesn't have Titegroup in it. I'm concerned where you got the information to load 4.2 grains of TG. I use a LOT of Titegroup so am very familiar with what it will and will not do in .40 S&W. We will help you figure this out but when you run into anything that isn't right, get answers from us. Don't just load and try it out. Get all of your answers lined out before shooting any more. This is a high pressure round that can destroy your gun, your hands, your eyes and possibly kill you. It's not the same as loading .45 ACP or .38 Special. There's a lot of experience following this thread.

Some cases jamming sideways and others not coming out at all are the symptoms of excessively light charges. That can be as dangerous as overcharges.

You said it was louder than any other you've shot out of the gun yrt the powder charge is ligt for the bullet weight. That could be a warning sign that should not be ignored. What kind of hearing protection are you using?

We need some information to help. There are some things that are very wrong.

1. Why are you loading to a shorter than SAAMI OAL?

2. What is the diameter of the mouth of the cartridge after crimping?

3. What is the case diameter 1/8" below the mouth?

4. Are you using the factory crimp die?

5. Have you adjusted the seating die so that it isn't crimping?

6. Could you post a picture of a loaded round that won't chamber?

Let us help you diagnose the problems.

David

[JakeBlanton]

According to the Lee reloading manual:

135 gr jacketed bullet
1.125" min OAL
5.8 gr Titegroup; 1155 fps
6.4 gr Titegroup; 1251 fps, 33,200 psi

4.2 gr might not be enough for the weight spring that your semi-auto has installed in it.

There's a lot of us who have experimented with very low velocity rounds for introducing new people to firearms, but when you go much below the published minimum, you run a risk of stovepipes and such in semi-auto. Revolvers and single shots are best for experimenting with very low velocity rounds. I've experimented with .38s and .357s and got them down to 400 fps and a bit less. With the difficult in finding .22LR rounds these days at a reasonable price, these low powered .38s and .357s make a cheap low recoil round for beginning shooters (kids or women).

[ElDorado]

I have a manual. But it doesn't have the titegroup powder.

Then why did you get titegroup powder?

If you have a manual, then sit down and read it and understand it. Don’t flip to the page with your cartridge and start reading, read it all. It will tell you how to do everything you need to do. If you are truly interested in reloading, reading the manual won’t bore you. If you find it impossible to sit down and work your way through it, then you probably won’t pay attention to your reloading, either. If you already read the manual, you wouldn’t be asking the questions that you are.

So you have a Nosler bullet? How about getting a Nosler manual?

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/397488/nosler-reloading-guide-7-reloading-manual
http://www.amazon.com/Nosler-50007-Reloading-Guide-Manual/dp/B00AM9UVHQ/

I like the Lyman manual – It has your 135 gr Nosler in it, sorry no titegroup.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/217655/lyman-reloading-handbook-49th-edition-reloading-manual-softcover
http://www.amazon.com/Lyman-49Th-Edition-Reloading-Handbook/dp/B001MYEU0E/

I started reloading with a Speer manual – it doesn’t have your bullet in it or any 135 gr for the 40 S&W, but they list titegroup loads.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/537267/speer-reloading-manual-14
http://www.amazon.com/Speer-9515-Reloading-Manual/dp/B001YB68SC/

Don’t read an article on the internet or listen to someone on youtube and then think you’re ready to start loading ammo. These manuals were written by people who have testing equipment and have performed the tests to know what they are talking about. They are not self-appointed experts; they are genuine experts.

If you want to educate yourself about reloading on the internet, go search “blows up gun” on youtube and watch all the guys who learned how to reload on the internet blow up their guns with double charges, squib loads, wrong powders, and loads they got from their buddies. That’s always a good lesson.

Looking forward to news of your success.

[6bg6ga]

Thats kind of contradictory. If the heavier bullet needs more chamber pressure then it will need a heavier charge than a lighter one. But the load data (data.hodgdon.com) show's opposite.

As the bullet weight increases the charge decreases. Some powder charges when on the low side can exhibit a high pressure condition and some don't. Sounds like your ok as far as pressure goes with the load you have. The problem is not enough recoil to work the slide thus a stovepipe. Two solutions here...1.) Don't go further and check pressures, shell casing signs and so forth and just throw a lighter recoil spring in the gun. 2.) Go further into the reality of loading and discover the why of the gun malfunctioning. 1.) Powder charge incorrect 2.) OAL wrong. 3.) crimp wrong. and possibly more but cannot tell because of a no picture post.

The heavier bullet builds up more pressure simply by the act that it hasn't moved. A lesser powder charge is needed simply because the bullet hasn't moved as fast as a lighter bullet would have and thus you have more pressure and this moves the bullet. So, if I understand this correctly the lighter bullet moves or leaves the cartridge sooner and pressure is lost so more powder is needed in order to obtain the velocity objective. The heavier bullet leaves slower and thus builds up a lot more pressure thus a smaller charge is needed in order to obtain ok cup pressure. Cup pressure will be higher with a heavier bullet and thus a slightly lower velocity than the lighter bullet. Its all pressures and velocities in this game with the object being to obtain an accurate load that is within the limits you need for your shooting needs without blowing your head off. Thus the friendly advice from us here on the forum.

[grumman581]

The heavier bullet builds up more pressure simply by the act that it hasn't moved. A lesser powder charge is needed simply because the bullet hasn't moved as fast as a lighter bullet would have and thus you have more pressure and this moves the bullet. So, if I understand this correctly the lighter bullet moves or leaves the cartridge sooner and pressure is lost so more powder is needed in order to obtain the velocity objective. The heavier bullet leaves slower and thus builds up a lot more pressure thus a smaller charge is needed in order to obtain ok cup pressure.

I suspect that many people who are new to reloading don't understand that upon ignition of the powder, the pressure that it develops is not instantaneous and that leads to their confusion. And when you add in the fact that the burn rates of the powders might significantly vary with the pressure that they are experiencing (i.e. the more pressure, the faster they burn, thus increasing the pressure even more), it's easy to see how they can get confused with everything happening all at once.


Powder ignites, starts to burn, pressure starts to build up.
Bullet start to move. Lighter bullet accelerates faster due to less inertia due to the lighter weight. It's also possible that the lighter bullet has less contact area with the barrel due to its smaller size (less weight = less size [generally]). This movement of the bullet increases the chamber volume, thus decreasing the pressure. Since the heavier bullet has not moved as far, the chamber volume is smaller and thus the chamber pressure is higher.
The powder is still burning, thus increasing the pressure. The larger expansion area behind the light bullet results in less of an increase in the chamber pressure than the one behind the larger bullet, plus the lighter bullet continues to accelerate faster, thus opening up even more expansion area behind it (as compared to the heavier bullet) thereby further decreasing the pressure that it is experiencing.
And when you combine this with a powder that burns better at higher pressures, you get even more pressure being generated by the heavier round.
This is also why that from a pressure standpoint, barrels can have thinner walls towards the muzzle end than they do at the chamber.


Hopefully this makes it a bit clearer for the OP.

[David2011]

Good post, Grumman.

David

[6bg6ga]

You made it clearer than I did Grumman, good job

[grumman581]

You made it clearer than I did Grumman, good job

I wasn't sure if I could quite manage it without a few diagrams... :)

Hopefully this helps the OP and I won't have to resort to drawing up a few drawings. It's one of those things that would be easy to explain in person in a few minutes with a blackboard...

Hmmm... I guess I'm showing my age when I refer to them as "blackboards" instead of "chalkboards"...

Do colleges even have actual slate blackboards anymore?

[hawgfan]

domainfitz - I agreed with an earlier poster about not crimping the 40sw, I want to say I was so wrong. After about 3 hours of reading last night, I found that all of the posters on this thread are giving you real good advice. I am now rethinking all of my 40 loads.

The only reason I said I don't crimp is because I shoot 600 rounds a week, which means I load 600 rounds a week and I have never crimped. I have been loading the 40 for 3 years now and have never had a problem, but after reading alot of different info last night it's apparent that I have no idea what I am doing lol. I consider myself real lucky that something hasn't happened, I have shot about 100,000 rounds in the past 3 years and all I can say is someone is looking after me.

I know you will be loading like a pro before you know it, just take your time and do it right. I know I will, NOW.

To everyone else who has been giving advice, THANKS.

[mckenziedrums]

It's funny... I learned to reload on 40 and I've yet to blow anything up. If you follow the recipes outlined in books you're going to be just fine. The Lee factory crimp die is a great way to get just enough crimp without deforming the bullets, so long as you adjust it right. If it's set right you'll notice just a light scuffing around the mouth of the case. Lots of guys will tell you that if you don't measure it you'll never know but you can certainly tell when it's applying just the right amount of crimp. If in doubt you can practice a bit with an empty case and a bullet... pull the bullet after crimping and if you're deforming it you've crimped too much. It should be in there pretty firm if you've applied enough crimp.

The 40 isn't any scarier than any other cartridge if you do your part. I've loaded it with Bullseye, Titegroup and for fun once I loaded up some 165g jacketed rounds with Longshot and managed 1280fps with no pressure signs on the brass. (Longer barreled XD40 for that one... your wrists WILL be sore after shooting it) I stuck with published loads and never started at the top range. The only powder I've ever loaded below listed minimum was Bullseye and that was one I started at minimum and worked down .1 gr at a time to see what the minimum that would cycle my gun would be. That resulted in me having a 40 load that feels like a 9mm and still does OK for short distance ringing of steel.

[David2011]

McKenzie,

I'm happy to hear that you haven't blown up anything yet. Did you read my earlier post about hitting max velocity while 0.6 grains below the recommended maximum charge of a powder I chose not to name? Staying within the book charges MIGHT be safe but clearly it is not a guarantee with every combination of powder and bullet.

Are you loading cast or jacketed bullets? Advising someone who is already having problems to not worry about measuring is never a good idea. As has been explained, the Lee Factory Crimp Die does have some potential problems, especially with cast boolits. I've been loading since the '70s and I trust my measuring devices more than my feel or eyeball. Bullseye is a fine powder and I've used a lot of it but I don't expect to load .40 with it. It is my personal preference to avoid Bullseye for high pressure cartridges such as the .40 and .357 Magnum.

David

[mckenziedrums]

Not everyone has the equipment to measure crimp with any kind of real accuracy... and while it's great if you can, it's not something that you HAVE to be able to do to load safely. Measuring OAL, powder charge, etc accurately is important but not getting the exact micron of crimp isn't the end of the world. Sorry but I see so many people talk like the 40 is just going to blow your gun up if you don't own machinists measuring tools when that just isn't the case. Stay within book numbers, start on the low side, and you'll be fine.

I load cast and jacketed in my 40 with equally good results. Obviously the loads change based on what projectile I'm working with at the time. I've got cast 40's that do about 850fps and the nice high velocity jacketed ones (I've since dialed those back to around 1150fps so I don't break my wrists shooting it)

One thing I will stress is the importance of a chrono... you don't know what your rounds are ACTUALLY doing without one.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Mckenzie: so you have a Chronograph, but no dial calipers? REALLY?

This is why you need to crimp! (See Pic) I picked this round off the ground two days ago at an IDPA shoot. The guy had repeated malfunctions with his reloaded ammo. He was lucky he didn't fire this one as it would have blown up his gun. Incidentally this round is still loaded! and the bullet is down in the case as far as it will go due to the powder level and the bullet moves freely in and out which leads me to believe the case had not even been resized. The bullet is being prevented from completely falling out of the case by a little bulge below the flare.

There is no crimp present, in fact the case is still flared. He didn't even know what a crimp was or how to do it. I am not making this up, this guy didn't know at all what he was doing. Crimping is common reloading practice and will be covered in any decent reloading manual which you also should have.

If a crimp wasn't standard practice then why is every factory round you shoot crimped?

If you don't have a set of dial calipers you can buy a set for <$25 at Harbor Freight. They are just as important a tool as reloading die, and way up the list from a chronograph. If you can't check your work you shouldn't be doing it because it is very dangerous to begin with and you kind of need to monitor certain things,,, crimp being one..

The .40 S&W is well known for being the most critical round to reload there is. I'm not saying it is a death trap, but it deserves respect and it also deserves all of the precautions that we have talked about above. Setting up a reloading machine to produce good quality ammo is not rocket science however there are certain parts of the process that should not be over looked because you think they are not important. Truly understanding all the functions will cure this, not truly understanding all the functions is why we are discussing this in the first place.[smilie=s: .

The idea that the crimp needs to be .417-418 to be correct is not some mysterious number divined from space or ****, it is the common book measurement that is given in most reloading manuals. It is .003-.005 less than a strait case with no crimp at all, and it needs to be there to help prevent the bullet from being set back into the case when it feeds from the magazine and violently hits the feed ramp.

Like the one in the picture. It didn't go into the chamber because the case mouth is still flared. As a result the bullet was set back when it hit the feed ramp when it attempted to feed.

He was very lucky it didn't feed. And so were the people standing near him.

There is a right way to do things, and then there are other ways. Reloading procedures have been established for decades, this is not the time to be deviating from them, and the .40 S&W is not the one to be testing the limits of in any event.

Do it right and live a long time.

One last thing. The round below was a nickel plated case that had been reloaded and tumbled many times as evidenced by the plating being worn off all of the sharp edges of the case. This guy had no idea where this case came from as he was reloading range pickups.. I might add that every dangerous, blown up, or highly questionable round I have ever found came off this range. I have a nice little collection.

Randy

[mckenziedrums]

My rounds are properly crimped... and I own several pairs of calipers. The cheap ones don't really give you the accuracy to measure crimp all that well. Yes, you'll get some measurements but if you don't have the precision to get exact measurements you can certainly tell a good crimp without them.

I never said you don't need to crimp and I agree that bullet set back is no bueno. What I don't agree with is all the scare tactics I see people use with .40 and powders like Bullseye. You can blow your gun up with ANY powder and with any cartridge. The advice given here is great but I just get irked when people make one cartridge out to be like a ticking time bomb waiting to blow up your gun. I've got some pictures of nice low pressure 45 colt rounds with the bullet almost hidden below the mouth of the case... that's just as likely to be a problem I'd say!

You CAN get the proper crimp by testing and finding the point at which you crimp TOO much and back off from there. It's not a precise measurement like you'd get from good measuring tools but it will serve its purpose.

[r1kk1]

Calipers and micrometers can be had cheap.
Specifications are found in several sources such as reloading data books.

Wow. That's all I can say is wow.

r1kk1

[domainfitz]

Please stop trying to load for the .40 until you have the questions sorted out. At 4.2 grains of Titegroup too much charge is not the reason you're having chambering problems. Too much powder would make the bullet hard to seat. A few posts later you said tht your manual doesn't have Titegroup in it. I'm concerned where you got the information to load 4.2 grains of TG. I use a LOT of Titegroup so am very familiar with what it will and will not do in .40 S&W. We will help you figure this out but when you run into anything that isn't right, get answers from us. Don't just load and try it out. Get all of your answers lined out before shooting any more. This is a high pressure round that can destroy your gun, your hands, your eyes and possibly kill you. It's not the same as loading .45 ACP or .38 Special. There's a lot of experience following this thread.

Some cases jamming sideways and others not coming out at all are the symptoms of excessively light charges. That can be as dangerous as overcharges.

You said it was louder than any other you've shot out of the gun yrt the powder charge is ligt for the bullet weight. That could be a warning sign that should not be ignored. What kind of hearing protection are you using?

We need some information to help. There are some things that are very wrong.

1. Why are you loading to a shorter than SAAMI OAL?

2. What is the diameter of the mouth of the cartridge after crimping?

3. What is the case diameter 1/8" below the mouth?

4. Are you using the factory crimp die?

5. Have you adjusted the seating die so that it isn't crimping?

6. Could you post a picture of a loaded round that won't chamber?

Let us help you diagnose the problems.

David



1. My oal isn't short. 1.123-1.126 is good. Calls for 1.125.
2.Dia of case mouth after crimping is around .412.
3. Dia of mouth 1/8th below is .420.
4. Yes i'm using the FCD
5. No i don't think the seating die is crimping
And 6.
84430

I believe everythings right with measurements, crimp, seating. I put the wrong charge in it. This weekend will prove worthy of putting all this advice into good measure.

[6bg6ga]

With respect to the caliper comment..... the $4 plastic calipers without the dial WILL measure just as accurately as the $200 calipers will. Being that I used to be a plant inspector I have many thousands of hours checking parts against blueprints. An expensive caliper in the hands of an inexperienced person will still yeald a defective measurement. Many people still try their darnest to grip a part as hard as they can to get the measurement they want or think they should have.

There is no scare tactic in this thread. A few of us are trying to open the eyes of some less experienced reloaders in the attempt to possibly save a life or two. Yes, the 40 is a cartridge that I for one respect highly because its not prone to giving second chances and I have seen this up close and personal having seen a few 40 go up in a puff of smoke so to speak. The thing about reloading is just about the time when you think you have things figured out you learn something new in other words I'm telling you that you don't have all the answers. Having reloaded thousands of rounds in the past 40+ years or better I would have jumped at the chance to learn something other than the hard way and your getting that chance in this thread. Both David and Randy have posted some super information only to have someone not be willing to accept it. My suggestion is this.... forget your pride and accept what they have posted as fact the way it needs to be done and simply do it the right way.

My god you need to sit down with someone and go thru the physics involved in the simple action of the shell being fired. This is a must do before you even think about trying to reload. Basic understanding of what is happening. You question reloading tables thinking they are wrong and what your concept of what is happening is correct?

[mckenziedrums]

Please don't think I don't appreciate the knowledge... I love learning the physics and science behind our hobby! I just prefer a more balanced approach to warning to be careful versus predictions of doom. I doubt all of us started with measuring our crimp and rather went by the axiom of "a firm crimp" ;)

[David2011]

1. My oal isn't short. 1.123-1.126 is good. Calls for 1.125.
2.Dia of case mouth after crimping is around .412.
3. Dia of mouth 1/8th below is .420.
4. Yes i'm using the FCD
5. No i don't think the seating die is crimping
And 6.
84430

I believe everythings right with measurements, crimp, seating. I put the wrong charge in it. This weekend will prove worthy of putting all this advice into good measure.

Domainfitz,

The crimp is excessive; so much so that I can see it in the photo. I've made the same mark on brass with a roll crimp die that I adjusted down too far on the first try. The SAAMI spec is .423" at the mouth and .4231" behind the mouth. (Like everyone can measure to .0001"! To .001" is plenty accurate.) You can back off on the crimp die until the crease goes away and then check your diameter.

Here's the SAAMI drawing for the .40 S&W: http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Pistol/40%20SandW.pdf

I checked three reloading manuals and they all show a mouth measurement of .423" as well. One of them did spec 1.125" OAL for bullets in your weight range. I rarely shoot anything other than a 180 grain TC in the STI so was focused on 1.135" for that bullet.

It sounds like you're well on your way to refining your .40 loads.

David

[domainfitz]

Thanks david.

[6bg6ga]

Thanks david.


I'm glad your getting it.


Checked a few of mine and they are to SAMMI spec.

[500MAG]

Did you go over the Glock bulge cases? Lol :popcorn:

[6bg6ga]

Please don't think I don't appreciate the knowledge... I love learning the physics and science behind our hobby! I just prefer a more balanced approach to warning to be careful versus predictions of doom. I doubt all of us started with measuring our crimp and rather went by the axiom of "a firm crimp" ;)

I don't think your seeing it yet. It started with a rather loose crimp where as the bullet was able to move in the shell casing. This caliber is NOT forgiving and needs to be done EXACTLY as stated in the SAMMI diagram on the 40 cal. It has progressed to the point of someone actually FOLLOWING the loading data as listed in reloading manuals.

Now, the predictions of doom are there to tell you what is going to happen if you blindly keep trying to reload the cartridge without the knowledge to do it correctly. Its up to you as its only your life, your gun. the safety of those around you thats at stake. No one seems to pay attention to the soft spoken "Be Carefull Dear" and maybe a pat on your back. You need a dose of reality when loading this round period.

I'm sorry you don't like it or the tone of my posts here. If I've accomplished possibly saving someones life here it was worth it. If I've irritated you enough that you start looking at the SAMMI diagram and reloading manuals it was worth it. If this post has made you think and educated you then my part, Davids, and Randys has done some good.

[6bg6ga]

Did you go over the Glock bulge cases? Lol :popcorn:


http://ultimatereloader.com/2012/05/06/reloading-40-sw-brass-considerations/

The link has some good information about the "Glock bulge" which is more typical with a Glock than other pistols. Full complete resizing is needed in order to restore the case to factory fresh state. Magma engineering makes a press and dies to combat this condition.

I have not however experienced this in my 40cal or my 10mm Glock. Both visual and measurement are recommended after firing your rounds or picking up someones drops on the range.

This also happens with the 9mm and other calibers. Yes, it does depend on the chamber of the particular gun as to if more complete sizing is needed.

[domainfitz]

Well the glock bulge isn't a effect that bothers my pistol. The case freely goes in amd come out of my barrel with ease. But I will be getting the bulgebuster and extra FCD.

[grumman581]

http://ultimatereloader.com/2012/05/06/reloading-40-sw-brass-considerations/

The link has some good information about the "Glock bulge" which is more typical with a Glock than other pistols. Full complete resizing is needed in order to restore the case to factory fresh state. Magma engineering makes a press and dies to combat this condition.
.

Resizing case and bullets (or removal of bullets from loaded rounds) is one of the reasons why it's nice to have a spare single stage press. A Lee bullet resizing die of the appropriate diameter works very well at removing the "Glock bulge" from the cases. You just put the case in upside down and push it through the die butt first instead of nose first like you do with the bullets in the Lee resizing dies.

[6bg6ga]

Well the glock bulge isn't a effect that bothers my pistol. The case freely goes in amd come out of my barrel with ease. But I will be getting the bulgebuster and extra FCD.

Have you checked your cases with a vernier or micrometer? I've checked mine:bigsmyl2:

[6bg6ga]

Resizing case and bullets (or removal of bullets from loaded rounds) is one of the reasons why it's nice to have a spare single stage press. A Lee bullet resizing die of the appropriate diameter works very well at removing the "Glock bulge" from the cases. You just put the case in upside down and push it through the die butt first instead of nose first like you do with the bullets in the Lee resizing dies.

Well stated 581. In addition to my 650 I have a Lyman T-mag turret press which is handy for 650 screw ups or doing just a few special rounds.

One should start reloading with a single stage press before purchasing any high output machine.

[r1kk1]

I doubt all of us started with measuring our crimp and rather went by the axiom of "a firm crimp" ;)

Actually SAAMI drawings are in most reloading data books. I spent time with calipers measuring things when I started reloading. I started with shotshells and didn't see a one piece wad for 12 gauge until mid 70s if I remember right. My uncle would grump at me if crimps were too deep. I read an interesting article on how crimps affect shotshell loads. Pressures can climb pretty high according to the article. My uncle measured and scrutinized everything I did on the bench. Fair enough.

I know what you mean by firm crimp for revolver rounds. I use enough crimp to get the job done without cylinder lockup and take my measurements there. I mark this down in my personal reloading log so I can set the crimp die up again or lock it down to a dedicated tool head.

Micrometers are a great tool to have too. I have a ball mic that is useful when I have a problem forming brass that will have thick necks. But I digress.

Take care

r1kk1

[grumman581]

Well stated 581. In addition to my 650 I have a Lyman T-mag turret press which is handy for 650 screw ups or doing just a few special rounds.

I have a Dillon 450 for my "high" volume reloading endeavors, a Lee 4-hole "Classic Turret Press" for low volume (e.g. rifle) reloading endeavors, and a RCBS JR-3 single stage press that is only used these days for resizing bullets, removing the "Glock Bulge" from brass, and removing bullets from loaded rounds.



One should start reloading with a single stage press before purchasing any high output machine.

Agreed... I started out with the RCBS JR-3 If nothing else, a single stage press makes you really appreciate the progressive press when you get it. :) I had found the JR-3 on Craigslist and it was pretty cheap. Previously, I had just been reloading .38 and .357 brass (for use in a .357 mag) with nothing more than a punch, hammer, and block of wood to remove the primers, a pair of channel-locks to seat the primers & bullets. Luckily, I was not pushing the limits on my loads, so the inconsistencies in my OALs did not have any adverse effects upon me. Or Darwin was just asleep on the job. Prior to lead bullets, I had reloaded with wax bullets. I think that is probably a good way for people to start since it's pretty difficult to exceed the pressure rating on chambers when you are shooting something as light as a wax bullet. Besides, with anything other than just a minimum amount of powder, the wax bullet basically vaporizes and all you gets is wax spray coming out the barrel. :)

[W.R.Buchanan]

OK where to start?

Grumman: In order to push thru size a .40 S&W case you use the Lee Deluxe Factory Crimp Die with the guts removed and push the case all the way thru the die. Or you can buy the more expensive Redding die to do the same thing. A case will NOT go all the way thru a normal sizing die since the head of the case is bigger than the die itself and won't compress. I tried this already and you just don't have arms big enough to do it.. The FCD draws the case down to .422-.423. This is a case prep operation followed by tumbling to remove all lube and make the cases look nice.

Then you size it with the normal sizing die to get bullet fit as part of the loading operation.

Domain fitz; good to see you are getting the idea. Your crimp is a little excessive. Remember that the case headspaces on the case mouth, and too small a case mouth will allow the case to be shoved forward into the throat of the chamber which will result in a pressure spike situation. .417-.418 is where you want to be.

The SAMMI Drawing does not show a crimped cartridge. Just measure a factory load you will see what I'm talking about. Also a case that is .423 on the OD is going to have zero press fit holding the bullet in place. That is a .401 bullet with .011 wall thickness on the brass. IE .401 + .011+.011 =.423. With a.400 bullet the bullet will fall out and the only thing holding it in is the crimp. And that isn't right either.

The case should be at about .417-.418 after the sizing die, and then there will be about .004 press on the bullet which bring the assembled cartridge back to .422-3 and will hold it in place. The function of the taper crimp is to further hold the bullet in place AND since it is a taper crimp and the front edge of the case is squished into the bullet it acts like a stop thus preventing bullet setback.

Mc Kenzie: the .40 S&W and 10MM cartridges are a the most critical cartridges there is to reload. This is due to the high pressures they run at and the non fully supported chambers they are fired from in automatic pistols. They run at nearly twice the chamber pressure as the .45 acp. and this is why they are deserving of close scrutiny when performing the reloading process. They are not like a .44 magnum cartridge where the revolvers chamber completely surrounds the base of the cartridge all the way to the rim and completely supports the round.

They are not inherently dangerous as long as attention to detail is adhered to. And no more than any other similar cartridge when loaded to mid range pressures and velocities. However when loaded to the upper limits and shot in most auto pistols, the small things can add up. Using bulged brass or brass that has been fired a few times can and does invite case failures. Hi end charges along with loose bullets that can be pushed back into the case is a disaster waiting to happen.

Certain cases should be avoided at all cost. These cases are early 1995-6 Federal cases marked FC and FC10. These cases have been responsible for many Glock Kabooms due to the shallow webs of the cases which allows no reinforcement at the critical unsupported area of virtually all auto pistols where the Feed Ramp intersects with the chamber. When the web blows out of these cases it will blow the magazine out of the gun and in some cases your hand along with it.

All that needs to be understood here is that this particular round deserves a lot more respect for the reloading process than virtually any other. It is not the best cartridge to learn reloading on. A much better one is the .45 ACP which is very forgiving of minor or even relatively major mistakes.

I have loaded thousands of .40 S&W cartridges, and I assure not all of them have been perfect. However I perform five times more QC inspections on the .40's I load than the .45's I load.

Things change during a reloading run and with this cartridge they can change enough to become a problem. Being setup correctly at the beginning is a big factor. However checking the setup frequently is also required to insure that your machine is not wandering around and changing the OAL or the crimp, or most importantly, the powder charge.

That's pretty much all I have to say on this subject, I have beat it to death on several threads on this site and everything has been covered many times.

But in closing here's a pic of what can happen if you don't pay attention. This one came from one of my IDPA shoots and the gun, a SA XD was destroyed, the slide blown off and the mag ejected. The guys hand was smacked pretty hard but didn't get hurt too bad.

This was caused by reloading one of the FC cases I mentioned above and the subsequent failure of that case when subjected to a stiff load..

Randy

[grumman581]

Grumman: In order to push thru size a .40 S&W case you use the Lee Deluxe Factory Crimp Die with the guts removed and push the case all the way thru the die. Or you can buy the more expensive Redding die to do the same thing. A case will NOT go all the way thru a normal sizing die since the head of the case is bigger than the die itself and won't compress. I tried this already and you just don't have arms big enough to do it.. The FCD draws the case down to .422-.423. This is a case prep operation followed by tumbling to remove all lube and make the cases look nice.

I haven't done it in awhile, so my memory might be a bit hazy on which die that I used for it. I think that for the 9mm brass, I used the .401 Lee Lube and Sizing Die and for the 10mm / .40 brass, I used the .427 Lee Lube and Sizing Die. They're slightly larger than the specs on the cartridges, but since there was noticeable resistance when the brass went through there, I figured it was helping out a bit. When I first decided to try this out, I wasn't aware that Lee made the FCDs and that you could disassemble them and run a case all the way through them.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Grumman: If you search Bulge Busting and/or Using Lee Factory Crimp dies for .40 S&W you will probably find something. I have written about doing it several times and even sold the pushers here at the site.

I stopped selling pushers when Lee came out with their Bulge Buster Kit a couple of years ago, since they could make them cheaper than I can. The BBkit includes the pusher an adapter that screws into the top of the die and a catch bottle. You use your Lee "Deluxe Factory Crimp Die" and remove the taper crimp sleeve and top cap and then replace it with the bottle adapter.

Note: that I keep saying "Deluxe" FCD. It is the one that has the carbide sizing ring in the base of the die. Otherwise it is simply a taper crimp die. It is not a collet style factory crimp die.

When you push the case all the way thru the die it squeezes the bulge down to .422-.423 which is about cylindrical. I also use some Dillon Case lube which makes the process a lot easier to do. Then tumble everything afterwards so the cases are clean to load.

I also keep saying that you must also run the cases thru the normal sizing die as part of the reloading operation. The De-Bulging operation only removes the bulge from the bottom area of the case above the extractor groove, or more properly the area coinciding with the loosest portion of the chamber, and does not prepare the case to hold a bullet. It is strictly a "Case Preparation Operation."

Loading bulged cases will increase the chance of case failure since the case is already stretched out and thus thinner in that area. Pushing the bulge back in place results in a stronger case. Still reloading multiple fired cases with hot loads is just not safe. With Mid Range Loads you can recycle them quite a few times, however you must inspect them each time and damn sure be on the lookout for FC and FC10 cases. They are not like .45 ACP's which you can reload pretty much indefinitely.

My Glock 21 has had exactly Two factory rounds fired thru it, the rest have been reloads done with range pick ups that I have reloaded.

In fact the whole reason I bought the gun in the first place was because of all the .45 ACP brass I had accumulated during range sweeps.

I had to reload it to shoot it all up. When I go to a shoot I take my sweeper and always leave with more brass than I shot up. I also have accumulated a large bucket of 9MM brass which is probably going to work its way into my program with a barrel for my G35.

I can't just throw it away, can I?

Randy

[grumman581]

Grumman: If you search Bulge Busting and/or Using Lee Factory Crimp dies for .40 S&W you will probably find something. I have written about doing it several times and even sold the pushers here at the site.

I stopped selling pushers when Lee came out with their Bulge Buster Kit a couple of years ago, since they could make them cheaper than I can. The BBkit includes the pusher an adapter that screws into the top of the die and a catch bottle. You use your Lee "Deluxe Factory Crimp Die" and remove the taper crimp sleeve and top cap and then replace it with the bottle adapter.

Note: that I keep saying "Deluxe" FCD. It is the one that has the carbide sizing ring in the base of the die. Otherwise it is simply a taper crimp die. It is not a collet style factory crimp die.

When you push the case all the way thru the die it squeezes the bulge down to .422-.423 which is about cylindrical. I also use some Dillon Case lube which makes the process a lot easier to do. Then tumble everything afterwards so the cases are clean to load.



That looks like it gets it a bit closer to the SAMMI specs than the bullet resizing dies that I have been using. I'll give it a try next time I have some to do. The method that I've been using could result in the cases being 0.003-0.004" larger in diameter than your method for the .40SW and 10mm. For the 9mm though, it would have been a bit worse at 0.010".

It looks like that even when using the Factory Crimp Die, you would need the pusher like what comes with the Lee Lube and Sizing Kit die.

I don't see a "Deluxe Factory Crimp Die" on the Lee web page, just a "Factory Crimp Die":

http://leeprecision.com/reloading-dies/hand-gun-dies/lee-carbide-factory-crimp-die

[W.R.Buchanan]

Grumman: The pusher comes in the bulge buster kit. All you have to make sure of is that the die has a carbide sizing ring in it, without it, it won't do anything. The die is NOW called the "Carbide Factory Crimp Die."

http://www.titanreloading.com/pistol-reloading-dies/lee-crimp-dies

Rather than rely on Lee itself, I'd call Titan Reloading, a sponsor of this site, and tell Dennis what you need.
He'll fix you up. Direct Phone # 1-262-244-7023.

Just remember you have to still use the normal full length sizing die before you put a bullet in the case. The FCD is ONLY a Case Prep Operation, not a loading operation.

Randy

[grumman581]

Grumman: The pusher comes in the bulge buster kit. All you have to make sure of is that the die has a carbide sizing ring in it, without it, it won't do anything. The die is NOW called the "Carbide Factory Crimp Die."

http://www.titanreloading.com/pistol-reloading-dies/lee-crimp-dies

Rather than rely on Lee itself, I'd call Titan Reloading, a sponsor of this site, and tell Dennis what you need.
He'll fix you up. Direct Phone # 1-262-244-7023.


From looking at the Lee web page about the Bulge Buster Kit, I'm just not sure that it does anything that I can't already do with a combination of my existing dies. From the photo on their page though, they seem to be running the brass through opening first whereas I'm running mine through base first. Theoretically, my way will potentially lengthen the case if you did it a lot of times. I figure that I'm safe though since from my understanding none of my Glocks (G20&G29) have chambers that are so unsupported as to cause the "Glock Bulge", thus I'm only fixing any extra brass that I get as range pickup.

http://leeprecision.com/bulge-buster-kit.html



Just remember you have to still use the normal full length sizing die before you put a bullet in the case. The FCD is ONLY a Case Prep Operation, not a loading operation.


Yes, I'm well aware of that. That's why I only do it on my single stage press.

[David2011]

For a while I used a Dillon sizing die with the decapper removed and a Lee boolit sizing stem in a Rock Chucker to push through size. I really got tired of the jolting it gave my whole body as the web passed through the die. Got lucky and won a Magma Case Master Jr. at a match. The first press I bought is still in the reloading room- a Jr-2. It's still useful at times and not worth enought to justify selling it but I might give it to a deserving young reloader some day. I'll have a single stage to supplement the progressives for as long as I can load and shoot.

Even with all of the warnings in this thread, there is a bright spot with the .40. I have had countless cases split after several reloadings. They don't last like .38 or .45 ACP. Nothing bad has happened as a result of the splitting. When dropped on a wood bench or counter top, the split cases make an unmistakably different ring than intact cartridges so they're pretty easy to find in a handful or even a bucket full of brass. I can even hear a split case in a load of brass in a Dillon media separator. Its pitch and ring are that different from good brass.

David

[W.R.Buchanan]

David: the Case Master is just a heavy duty version of the method we are talking about above. There is another machine called the Case Pro 100 which is a "roll sizer" which not only de-bulges the case, it also straitens out the rim, and the case is ready to load after.

http://www.casepro100.com/index.html

It is a little more expensive at about $700 for one caliber but if you are processing a lot of brass it would pay for itself pretty quickly. It is also much easier to operate, and it can be fully automated easily as well.

JMorris has one that is fully automated. and it pumps out about 60 +rounds a minute. It's quite the machine.

The point of all of this is to get people to take the extra step of debulging the .40S&W cases, which makes them much safer to load.

Randy

[David2011]

Randy,

Absolutely agreed. The Case Master Jr is an ordinary arbor press, probably 2 ton size to get the stroke it needs, with a simple hand operated case feeder and a honed out Dillon sizing die. Magma (from the horse's mouth) diamond hones the taper out of a Dillon carbide sizing die and mounts it in the press. The saving grace is that it was easy to adapt a Dillon case feeder to it.

Before I won the Case Master Jr. (a very expensive item for what it does IMO- don't think I would have ever purchased one) I roll sized with a friend's automated Case Pro. He had a geared motor and a Dillon case feeder on it. Very slick. He would have a brass rolling party every 4-6 weeks for a few of us that all shot .40 Limited USPSA.

My comment was really more about using the Dillon die in a manner other than intended. When the web passed through the restriction I had to put a lot of weight on it and it rattled my torso pretty hard as the web and rim snapped through the die.

The Case Master Jr. is not the easiest tool in the world to operate. I was surprised at how much force it takes to push the case through. I've been pondering putting an air cylinder on it along with safety valves that require both hands to be in safe places. Lanolin case lube definitely helps. The case and rim are both restored to the correct diameter but sizing is still required for proper neck tension.

David

[W.R.Buchanan]

I debulge my .40 cases with my Rockchucker press, the Lee die, and I made my pusher. I do it mouth first.

I have found that some cases are harder to push thru the die than others.

What I also found was that adjusting the die to where the press linkage was just starting to cam over just as the difficult portion of the case went thru the die made things a lot easier. This is where the press has it's highest degree of mechanical advantage.

The arbor press has the same amount of pressure thruout it's travel and the only thing that changes that is the position you have the handle in. IE: if you have the handle set up to where you are pulling down on it, (you can put your weight into it) you are going to get more leverage than if you have the handle set up to work at the top or very bottom of the handles travel.

There is a collar on the left side of the press that you take off and it allows you to pull the pinion gear shaft and handle out until it disengages the rack . Then you can position it anywhere you want.

You can also increase the length of the handle which increases the leverage but also increases the length that you must pull thru for a complete cycle. I have a 3 ft long piece of aluminum pipe on my arbor press which is the exact same Chinese Arbor Press that is used on the case master.

Obviously Dillon case lube helps as well.

Some cases take a lot more force to jam thru the die, and I don't know if it is because of really loose chamber they were fired in or the size of the web of the case or what. Obviously they are bigger than the other cases that go thru the die easier, but I don't know exactly why they are bigger.

Randy

[David2011]

Unfortunately the Case Master Jr. requires almost a full 180 degree throw from raising high enough to clear the case mouth when putting it in position to pushing it all the way through the sizing die. I have the handle pretty much at full length already and extending it would make it even more difficult to use. I've spent many hours analyzing how I could make it better. One thing other than the air cylinder that comes to mind it to put a sheave on it and make it foot operated with wire rope. While the finished results of the Case Master Jr. are excellent, it is probably the most difficult tool to use that Magma makes. I've talked to them on the phone about it and the bottom line is that it takes a lot of pressure to complete the stroke. When I run several hundred at a time I want to sit and operate it. It can be done; it just takes a lot of effort. I played with the projection of the punch to get the handle at the optimum angle and that helped to position it so that the handle is above level at the tight spot. That way I'm still pulling downward on it. From a sitting position, that was better for me than for the handle to be horizontal.

I adjusted the Rock Chucker to push the web though the die when the handle was at its best leverage which also put it about belt high on me so I had really good leverage. The unmodified Dillon die was just really tight. That's just a distant memory now, thank goodness. I imagine the Lee purpose built push through die is much better suited and smoother. It might be worth trying the Lee die in the Case Master Jr.

David

[David2011]

Picture worth 1000 words. . .

84718 84717

David

[W.R.Buchanan]

David: here's what the setup looks like with the Lee die. the reason why you are experiencing so much pressure with the unmodified Dillon die is because it is a full length sizing die and it is trying to squeeze the entire cartridge down to .about.418. The case head is normally larger than that.

The Lee FCD is only going to size the cases to about .422-423. The case head is smaller than that, so you don't have to squish it as well just the bulged portion of the case above the web.

Also try sending the brass thru the die mouth first. I realize the case master shoves them thru butt first but when you get a Lee die you can try it on your single stage press.

Randy