High Performance vs Quick and Cheap Buckshot: A Discussion

[RMc]

It seems most buckshot questions are aimed at producing quick and easy loads based on target load components. High performance buckshot queries seem to be in minority.

Which is most important to you?

Based on the answer given, what minimum pattern performance is acceptable to you at 25 and 40 yards?

What Buckshot pellet sizes do you load and why?

[cpileri]

Hmmm... i guess i'll start. I hope this is on target for what you're asking.

i do practice w whatever buckshot is around, I came into alot of Sellier and bellot 00buck once, the ones in clear hulls w cardboard wads and no shot cup. SO I practice w those. They pattern OK.

I dont hunt w buckshot, except I do plan to use the Dixie Tri-Ball this season- but I assume you want to talk standard buckshot sizes and not 60-caliber balls- so i load buckshot for defense. Against either 2- or big 4-legged attackers.

So I want all pellets in a 16-ish inch (torso sized) circle at defense ranges, say 25 yds. Therefore, i load or buy premium 00-buck for those, if remington still made their hevi-shot 00b I'd buy more. it was great but I only have one box left. Those hevi-pellets really stayed tight. The federal TAP ammo uses their flitecontrol wad and helps keep patterns very tight.

For predating varmints at night though, coyotes mainly, I load T-shot or F-shot (.20-.22 cal) which is not buckshot really, almost but not quite. but for these i like a little better spread, and I got a load that has a pretty decent pattern of 24-inches at 30 yds. More pellets keep holes in the pattern to a minimum, see pic here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?199731-Safety-of-hubel-Sabot-in-875-muzzle-thickness-barrel&p=2236512&viewfull=1#post2236512
its post number 36 in that thread, if the link doesnt work.
load was:
Load: 7
Hull: Fed 3” red
Primer: Fed 209
Powder & Charge: 28gr HS-6
Wad column: thin fiber filler wad, 2.75” TPS wad
Load: 48 pellets F-shot (~775gr)
Overshot (if any) & Crimp: clear OS disc, roll crimp


First I bought some of these:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?188019-How-they-cram-2-amp-1-4oz-into-a-3-quot-12ga-(w-pics)&highlight=


but then I decided to make some of my own. Not as much shot (1&7/8oz mine vs 2.25oz for Nitros) but cheaper by far!

Hope this is on target.
C-

[pipehand]

I haven't tested mine at 40 yards, but my cheap and easy .311" water dropped 9 pellet loads in a waa12 wad and a trap load of powder are patterning 8 inches at 25 yards out of a cylinder bore. The cheap winchester 9 pellet OO Buck (soft and unplated) loads are patterning 25 inches at the same distance. I wanted to try the Federal Flight controll Buckshot loads, but the $8.99 plus tax cost for 5 put me off.

Ajay posted some fast "high performance" buckshot loads a while back, but I didn't see any patterning tests.

RMc, is your performance criteria tight patterns, or speed? Sure would be nice to have both, but my limited experience shows hard pellets slow patterns great.

[RMc]

Ok guys, thanks for taking a shot at this - pun intended. Up front, my primary buckshot focus is hunting. On most forums, if you mention buckshot and deer hunting in the same sentence, folks seem to declare open season - and they're not talking about deer season.

This is changing somewhat with the growth of predator hunting east of the Mississippi river, the growth of 3 gun competition and a modest growth in standhunting with buckshot. However, I doubt we will see buckshot spotlighted in any Outdoor Channel deer hunting videos in the near future.

From my perspective, it seems the buckshot handloader has (or should have) a better idea of what an effective buckshot pattern looks like. Better phrased perhaps: What is your performance goal in putting together this kind of ammo?

I've pondered this question over the years. My first deer, taken back when the world was new, dropped to a staggered burst of 100 "rounds" (five short magnum #1B) - from stem to stern! I had no idea how my shotgun patterned then. The last deer I took with conventional buckshot fell to a single pattern directed to the head and neck. Both were running shots, the first at maybe 25 yards the latter at some 40 yards. I knew what the second load could deliver.

So I'm looking for your perspective - a handloaders perspective.

Kick this around guys...

[Hogtamer]

My "gold standard" for any load is lethality at 50 yds and buckshot is no exception. As a result I loaded many different sizes with many different powder- wad- hull -buffer-#of pellets- wraps-wad columns, shotcups- fixed chokes- choke tubes to no choke! you name it and I've tried it with 2 3/4 shells. It was a pretty expensive proposition as a tested lots of factory loadsfor comparison and bought lots of components and different brand buckshot - nickel and copper coated included. Let me first state that NONE of the factory loads of 00 or larger would consistently put even 1 pellet in a 12 " circle @ 50 yds out of a full choke 870 12 ga (fixed or screw in full). Some seem to get results with open chokes but that was not the case out of my guns. Secondly let me state that's it's not the # of pellets you load that counts, but how many are on target! That's all that counts. Eventually I was able to get 3 pellets on average (somtimes 4) of 00 size in a 12 in circle @ 50 yds, and 1 or 2 of 0000 size consistently. I will check my load data (tomorrow) before I post. I've got a couple of hundred loaded and packed away, will even range test again this weekend with some pics just to reassure myself!

[cpileri]

RMc,
did you recover any pellets from that last deer, the 'one shot' deer?
How many pellets hit and where did they hit?
Reason I ask is that w most deer i've seen taken by buckshot, only 3 actually, all were 12ga 9-pellet factory loads. On these only 4-5 pellets hit but at least one was in the vitals (one has a cluster of 4 all hit the neck, which practically decapitated the doe. That was an aimed neck shot at ~20 yds)

SO i look at it as a medium between turkey patterns and dove paterns: turkey go for a super-tight cluster for headshots, where doves get a wide pattern hoping a pellet or 2 hit it since that's all it takes usually.

With deer, you need enough chances (i.e. number of pellets) to score a lethal hit, but not so wide a pattern that not enough hit or none hit a vital area. CHoke, of course, affects pattern; but more dense pellets and tightly controlled release wads do alot.

i guess none of this info is really revolutionary, almost everyone knows these things. but you can handload the denser shot and correct wads (experiment w types and especially how far down you slit wads bought unslit) cheaper than factory ammo.

C-

[RMc]

C.

I fired with the barrel moving well ahead of and just below the nose. Six of the twelve balls struck the head and neck.

[jmort]

"Six of the twelve balls struck the head and neck."

What choke were you using? I've settled on #1 and 000 for now but I don't hunt. I have always used a cylinder bore, but from what I have seen/read I might be better off with a full choke. Just got a barrel with choke tubes. We shall see. I agree with the post that within reason, slower is better. Less recoil, and still works real good.

[RMc]

Full.

[jmort]

Makes sense.

[429421Cowboy]

I guess my standard for buckshot is lethality, since I don't really see the point in target shooting with buckshot, but do use it a lot for hunting. Don't take that as I don't pattern loads, I do shoot a lot for pattern and to check POA out of my gun, but I don't see the percentage in plinking with buckshot. So I would say carefully assembled loads that give effective deer and coyote stopping power and range are worth legions more to me than fast 'n dirty glorified trap loads with buck in them.
I have only just started to poke into loading my own buck, but have been using it for many years on deer and coyotes. Here in Mt there isn't a whole lot of a point to me in using slugs, since I could just use a rifle, or if in a weapons restricted area, my handgun or Hawkin gun if I wanted more range than buckshot. I also carry a 12 with buckshot for tracking wounded deer in the brush as my problem gun, and just had a 20" barrel threaded for choke tubes to put on my 870 to have a bit more manageable gun for packing all season with limited use, that i haven't had time to pattern yet but am excited about. Thus, buckshot is used to fill a niche in our hunting style, when we are driving deer in thick brush along our river bottom properties, and shots are typically 40/50 yards max. We take head shots, because we don't have very good luck running .36 caliber pellets through our meat grinder, and we prefer the bang-flop kills with buck over the poor bloodtrails left by body shot deer when using buckshot. So, my performance standard is 4+ pellets in a deer head size target at max range to be hunted.
At some point I am hoping to come up with a load that gives this performance in my new barrel + choke combo for hunting, then stick with that load for hunting and carry, and not really worry about it ever being a high volume practice load.

[Hogtamer]

You got it Cowboy! Hope to get out tomorrow and post pics and loads.

[dverna]

I am not a hunter. Buckshot loads are for 2 legged problems and in case a black bear gets too inquisitive around us.

So ranges will be short - under 30 yards. I bought a Lee mold to cast buckshot as I am not paying over $1/shot for factory loads. I have not unloaded all my stuff from my move last month so I have not loaded anything yet and have no data. My hope is to have 24" pattern at 25 yards. Not sure if this is doable so this thread is interesting. I also bought the Lyman 525 slug mold to play with.

I do not need "high performance" if that means high velocity. Pattern is more important to me, and I do not want excessive recoil.

Don Verna

[Hogtamer]

Don, I worked up a load of 8 - 00 pellets over 19.5 grn CLAYS that is light recoil but more lead on paper than a hot 12 pellet load. I'll look up the hull and wad I used and get back to you.

[RMc]

I am not a hunter. Buckshot loads are for 2 legged problems and in case a black bear gets too inquisitive around us.

My hope is to have 24" pattern at 25 yards. Not sure if this is doable so this thread is interesting. I also bought the Lyman 525 slug mold to play with.

I do not need "high performance" if that means high velocity. Pattern is more important to me, and I do not want excessive recoil.

Don Verna

Your goal of a 24" pattern at 25 yards is more than double the minimum pattern size I look for at that range. And yes, pattern is the builder's cornerstone for buckshot loads.

[RMc]

"Six of the twelve balls struck the head and neck."

What choke were you using? I've settled on #1 and 000 for now but I don't hunt. I have always used a cylinder bore, but from what I have seen/read I might be better off with a full choke. Just got a barrel with choke tubes. We shall see. I agree with the post that within reason, slower is better. Less recoil, and still works real good.

Most aftermarket "buckshot" constriction chokes are indeed built to "full" choke standards.

[RMc]

RMc,
did you recover any pellets from that last deer, the 'one shot' deer?
How many pellets hit and where did they hit?
Reason I ask is that w most deer i've seen taken by buckshot, only 3 actually, all were 12ga 9-pellet factory loads. On these only 4-5 pellets hit but at least one was in the vitals (one has a cluster of 4 all hit the neck, which practically decapitated the doe. That was an aimed neck shot at ~20 yds)

SO i look at it as a medium between turkey patterns and dove paterns: turkey go for a super-tight cluster for headshots, where doves get a wide pattern hoping a pellet or 2 hit it since that's all it takes usually.

With deer, you need enough chances (i.e. number of pellets) to score a lethal hit, but not so wide a pattern that not enough hit or none hit a vital area. CHoke, of course, affects pattern; but more dense pellets and tightly controlled release wads do alot.

i guess none of this info is really revolutionary, almost everyone knows these things. but you can handload the denser shot and correct wads (experiment w types and especially how far down you slit wads bought unslit) cheaper than factory ammo.

C-

So, at what point does a buckshot pattern become too tight?

[429421Cowboy]

So, at what point does a buckshot pattern become too tight?

I have wondered this myself at times, especially when the same guys that show rifle-like patterns of turkey loads that could hide behind a playing card, then complain when they miss or feather a bird.

[cpileri]

That's what i think anyway; too tight is when you basically have to aim like a rilfe, negating the benefit of having multiple chances to hit the target.
C-

[Hogtamer]

Here's a hunting load with great pattern @ 50 yds from FC 870, 28" brl: Fed hull, 209 primer, 33.5 gr Longshot, x12x OP wad from BPI, Remington SP 12 w/10 BPI 00 nickel plated pellets, buffer, OS card, crimp. Caution: weigh your buckshot from different manufacturers! Standard lead 00 weigh about 54 grns but these 00 are smaller and weigh 47 grns!84016

Here's a light load with 5 a great pattern!!! Straight wall 2 3/4" hull, 209 primer, 19 grn CLAYS, PT 1265 wad from BPI http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Non-toxic-Shot-Wads/products/395/
8 - 00 lead pellets, buffer, OS card, crimp.

I have loaded 12 pellet 00 boomers that actually didn't perform as well as either of above.

One big load that really shines is a straight walled 2 3/4" hull, 209 primer, 37 gr Longshot, x12x OP, thick Mylar wrap inserted with a 16 ga nitro card dropped in, 6 - .375 lead balls (0000 buck),
Grits or COW buffer, OS card, crimp.

All of these give best results out of full choke in my guns.

[OnHoPr]

Just like any other hunting scenario there are different uses of buckshot. Most any buckshot can be loaded into a simple shotcup load for HD for the specific or general firearm that would be serviceable. There are different hunting scenarios that require different buckshot performance. For example, I just watched a bunch of deer dog hunting vids on youtube, very interesting but far different from from my own scenario. There multiple shots were taken at running deer at quick guesstimated ranges to past 50 yards. For instance, bubbaroundtree has a 60 yard pattern challenge going on. Where and when I would use buckshot, 40 to 45 yards would be max because you couldn't get a shot pass that any way because of brush and viewing so you really wouldn't even be able to probably get more than two shots off anyways. So, I have 3 1/2" mags loaded to put minimum of 7 to 12 buckshot in a breadbasket at 40 yards for A single good lung or neck shot at a standing or slow to medium moving deer. I would like to tweak that a bit better though and get about 10 to 14 in a 12" circle or so for a good boiler room shot or a definite down neck shot out to 40 yards or a touch over if a quick misjudged range is taken in a hunting situation. Though after the under 40 yard shot was taken if I could get multiple shots off with the recoil that is happening with the 3 1/2" load and the deer was still on the move, well I would still blast. If I in an area where a few 50 yard shots are present a single projectile would be used.

[dverna]

Great info Hogtamer.

Thanks,

Don Verna

[ackleyman]

It seems most buckshot questions are aimed at producing quick and easy loads based on target load components. High performance buckshot queries seem to be in minority.

Which is most important to you?

Based on the answer given, what minimum pattern performance is acceptable to you at 25 and 40 yards?

What Buckshot pellet sizes do you load and why?

I started loading buckshot in the mid 80's for coyotes out West, mostly #4 and F Buck. I shot a lot of patterns out of many guns.

You will read a lot of BS from guys that have not done much testing on chokes. One thing that I can tell you is that shot gun shells are not very consistant on how they will throw a pattern. One shell might be stellar, and the next ho hum. I use the best of Ballistic products wads and filler, and will always shoot two or three patterns with a load before I sit down to load quantity.

Here is a short summary of what I have found in my experience. Full chokes will out perform modified almost 100% of the time and imp cylinder is very wide indeed. I found that in my 11/87, a Carlson's turkey choke will print 100% of the pattern in a 20" circle at 40 yds with ooo buck and 00 buck that is Remington 3" factory. The 000 is a tad tigher than the 00. My best #4 loads print 100% at 40 yds in a 20" circle, some will print all in a 15" circle.

Warning, you really need to shoot your shotgun to see where it prints when you get tight patterns. My rem's shoot low, and Beretta's shoot slightly left...shotgun fit is critical.

Federal Flite control wads are simply the shell to use in a cylinder bore and will significantly tighten a pattern Up to a full choke.

On Youtube, if you do a search on "Bubba Round Tree" you will get a good education on shooting and reloading buckshot. Don't get sidetracked by his Southern mannerisms, he will show you what is the real deal on molding and shooting buckshot.

Hope this helps

[encoreman]

Hey guys not trying to steal the thread but I have questions on loading buckshot. I have lots of Green dot and Rem STS and old Win super X hulls, I have 2 shot shell loading books and nothing real close to my components. I use CLaybuster WAA12 replacements. Any help would be appreciated, these will be for predators of differing numbers of legs. Mac