Pot and Ladle - good deals?

[icor1031]

This is what I have in my list:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000LEXR0K/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER
and
http://www.amazon.com/Casting-Ladle-Bottom-Pour-Rowell/dp/B001QUXBYU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1381336532&sr=8-1&keywords=rowell+%233+ladle


Can anyone suggest better deals?

Thanks!

[Wayne Smith]

You have adequate tools for melting down large amounts of alloy and pouring into ingots. You don't have the right stuff for melting ingots and pouring bullets. It all depends on what you are doing. The Rowell Ladel is either of 2.5 or 3lb capacity, way too much to make boolits. Your cast iron pot will need a turkey fryer type heat source to melt lead.

For making boolits you need the Lyman ladle or the RCBS ladle and an old 1qt sauce pan and you can melt lead in the sauce pan with a Coleman type stove. I use one of their propane stoves.

[Garyshome]

Looks kind of pricy to cheap old me. Maybe try garage/yard sales.

[grumman581]

I only buy Lodge cast iron cookware for actual cooking. It is definitely too good to be using for casting or smelting.

Are you looking to create a setup for smelting or casting? That size ladle is a bit large for casting (unless you are casting cannonballs, I guess). The #1 ladle is plenty for casting most bullets, even in 6-cavity molds. If you are smelting, what is your ingot size? It's nice to have a ladle that is large enough that you can cast a full (or multiples thereof) ingot in a single pour, although many of us get along well enough having to do multiple pours for each ingot (because we chose our ingot and ladle size incorrectly). It's mainly a cosmetic issue.

For smelting, I prefer a larger pot than what you linked to since you need room for all the clips from the wheel weights. For casting, I prefer a pot that is a bit taller and not as wide. As far as I'm concerned, you need a pot that will hold 20 lbs at the very least for casting bullets and even double that would not be unreasonable as long as it has a relatively smaller diameter and taller pot that what we normally see for cast iron cookware. Unfortunately, no one seems to make cast iron cookware in those proportions these days, so you end up either compromising or welding up your own pot out of large diameter pipe or an old 20-lb propane tank (for smelting, not casting).

Here's some cheaper cast iron choices:

http://www.academy.com/shop/browse/camping-outdoors-outdoor-cooking-camp-cookware/_/N-395477678

[icor1031]

You have adequate tools for melting down large amounts of alloy and pouring into ingots. You don't have the right stuff for melting ingots and pouring bullets. It all depends on what you are doing. The Rowell Ladel is either of 2.5 or 3lb capacity, way too much to make boolits. Your cast iron pot will need a turkey fryer type heat source to melt lead.

For making boolits you need the Lyman ladle or the RCBS ladle and an old 1qt sauce pan and you can melt lead in the sauce pan with a Coleman type stove. I use one of their propane stoves.

I'm making ingots.

You mentioned a turkey fryer... A propane burner is not a good way to heat the cast iron pot?

[icor1031]

If you are smelting, what is your ingot size? It's nice to have a ladle that is large enough that you can cast a full (or multiples thereof) ingot in a single pour, although many of us get along well enough having to do multiple pours for each ingot (because we chose our ingot and ladle size incorrectly). It's mainly a cosmetic issue.

I intended to use this:

http://www.adorama.com/LY2837794.html?gclid=CM3T4-CxiroCFWfhQgodOF4AGw

It should give me one full ingot per pour, right?

[KCSO]

I bought a cast iron pot and a ladle from the local thrift shop for $3.00, does the job just fine for smelting. For bullet casting I picked up used Lee pots at garage sales fro $10 each.

[grumman581]

I'm making ingots.

You mentioned a turkey fryer... A propane burner is not a good way to heat the cast iron pot?

People say "turkey fryer", but from a practical standpoint, they are just a particular style of propane burner that is for use outside. Personally, I prefer the banjo style burner. I have mine setup for natural gas instead of propane. It produces a lower flame height, but there are a lot more individual flames, so it seems to make up for it. If I want to, it's entirely possible to get it hot enough to melt zinc, but it takes longer, so the chance of accidentally getting a pot that hot is less in my opinion. Do you have access to a natural gas supply? If so, it will be definitely cheaper than the 20 lb propane tanks that you see for BBQ grills.

[grumman581]

I intended to use this:

http://www.adorama.com/LY2837794.html?gclid=CM3T4-CxiroCFWfhQgodOF4AGw

It should give me one full ingot per pour, right?

That particular mold has four 1-lb ingots in it. If you wanted to pour all four ingots in a single pour, I would suggest a Rowell #4 which will hold approximately 4.5 lbs. It also has a sliding sleeve on the handle which makes the pouring easier.

http://www.amazon.com/Casting-Ladle-Bottom-Pour-Rowell/dp/B001QUZBGG

You don't necessarily want to pour *all* of the lead out of your ladle. The purpose of the Rowell-type bottom source ladles is to be pouring the clean lead from the bottom and leave the dross that is floating on the top still in the ladle. As such, if I was pouring four 1-lb ingots at once, I would prefer a ladle that held a bit more than 4 lbs. The Rowell #3 would be plenty if you were only pouring 2 of the ingots at once. I would only use the Rowell #1 if I was casting bullets (or something else that needed less than 1 lb of lead at a time).

[icor1031]

People say "turkey fryer", but from a practical standpoint, they are just a particular style of propane burner that is for use outside. Personally, I prefer the banjo style burner. I have mine setup for natural gas instead of propane. It produces a lower flame height, but there are a lot more individual flames, so it seems to make up for it. If I want to, it's entirely possible to get it hot enough to melt zinc, but it takes longer, so the chance of accidentally getting a pot that hot is less in my opinion. Do you have access to a natural gas supply? If so, it will be definitely cheaper than the 20 lb propane tanks that you see for BBQ grills.

By the looks of it, a turkey fryer is no different except that it has a shield on the sides. I'm building an outdoor table specifically for casting. I can add a 'shield' to the sides and back, which should function almost the same way. And probably better, because the bottom is also protected.

Any reason not to do that? The burner I have is 7k BTU.

[icor1031]

Also, how did you get it set up for natural gas?

Thanks.

[grumman581]

By the looks of it, a turkey fryer is no different except that it has a shield on the sides. I'm building an outdoor table specifically for casting. I can add a 'shield' to the sides and back, which should function almost the same way. And probably better, because the bottom is also protected.

Any reason not to do that? The burner I have is 7k BTU.

Whether it has a shield around it does not make it a "turkey fryer".

It really depends upon who you are talking to and where they are in the country. Around here, it seems that people consider the "turkey fryers" to be the jet-type burners. Here's one example:

http://www.academy.com/shop/pdp/king-kooker-12-tripod-propane-jet-burner/pid-27735?N=578846088

Often these types of burners have a higher psi rating on their regulators than normal burners.

7K BTUs is a bit underpowered in my opinion. With proper shielding and insulation, it could work, but it is going to take a lot longer to heat up. Personally, I would not even consider 7K BTUs to be enough for cooking food *inside* my house. It might be perfectly acceptable though for a *casting* pot, but I would not personally use it for smelting. I prefer something a bit quicker to heat up.

The "banjo" burners that I prefer (which work with natural gas) look like this:

http://www.bayouclassicdepot.com/images/bcbg14_large_cast_propane_burner.jpg
http://www.amazon.com/Bayou-Classic-BG14-Banjo-Burner/dp/B0009JXYTG

Here's a similar one, but smaller and without the jets on the spokes of the "wheel":
http://www.academy.com/shop/pdp/king-kooker-6-low-pressure-replacement-burner/pid-27353?N=563837843&Ntt=burner&Ntk=All

Just remember, lead is a lot heavier than what many of the stands were designed to hold. Unless you positively know for a fact that the burner stand can support all that weight and is not going to tip over, I would suggest separating the concept of heat source from smelting pot support. One way of doing that is by stacking a couple of cinder blocks on each side and using solid metal square rods between them to support the smelting pot while just using the normal burner with its stand and sliding it under the horizontal metal rods. That way, the stand for the burner is not supporting the weight of the pot.

[grumman581]

Also, how did you get it set up for natural gas?


Natural gas requires a slightly larger gas jet. You can start with the existing gas jet to see how it works and if you don't like it, drill it out slightly. I believe that I used a 1/16" drill bit on mine originally. If you do it right, you'll get a nice blue flame. If not, it will be a bit yellow and probably smoke the bottom of your smelting pot.

For the actual gas supply, that's easy... Many gas meters have a small plug on one of the pipe elbows that is 1/4" NPT (the same as an shop air hose fitting). I removed the plug, installed a brass ball valve (like this (http://www.homedepot.com/p/Apollo-1-4-in-Brass-Ball-Valve-NPT-Full-Port-THD94A101/203019406?N=12kx#.UlW5zFO92_0)), utilizing nipples / adapters as appropriate, and then put a female air hose coupling (http://www.harborfreight.com/14-male-brass-industrial-coupler-68179.html) on the other end. The burner that I have was easy to adapt to 1/4" NPT which then adapted easily into a male quick connect fitting. I just use my shop air hose as a temporary gas hose. At the meter, I have my adapters set up so that the female quick connect fitting is pointing down so that no water gets in it when it rains. I don't rely on the quick connect fittings to be completely gas tight, thus the ball valve. The gas pressure is so low that all of this can be done without even turning the gas off to the meter.

[icor1031]

Natural gas requires a slightly larger gas jet. You can start with the existing gas jet to see how it works and if you don't like it, drill it out slightly. I believe that I used a 1/16" drill bit on mine originally. If you do it right, you'll get a nice blue flame. If not, it will be a bit yellow and probably smoke the bottom of your smelting pot.

For the actual gas supply, that's easy... Many gas meters have a small plug on one of the pipe elbows that is 1/4" NPT (the same as an shop air hose fitting). I removed the plug, installed a brass ball valve (like this (http://www.homedepot.com/p/Apollo-1-4-in-Brass-Ball-Valve-NPT-Full-Port-THD94A101/203019406?N=12kx#.UlW5zFO92_0)), utilizing nipples / adapters as appropriate, and then put a female air hose coupling (http://www.harborfreight.com/14-male-brass-industrial-coupler-68179.html) on the other end. The burner that I have was easy to adapt to 1/4" NPT which then adapted easily into a male quick connect fitting. I just use my shop air hose as a temporary gas hose. At the meter, I have my adapters set up so that the female quick connect fitting is pointing down so that no water gets in it when it rains. I don't rely on the quick connect fittings to be completely gas tight, thus the ball valve. The gas pressure is so low that all of this can be done without even turning the gas off to the meter.

I love your responses, thank you. Tonight, I took back my 7k burner.

[WilliamDahl]

I love your responses, thank you. Tonight, I took back my 7k burner.

Personally, I would shoot for something closer to 50K BTUs. An indoor cooktop is around 15,000 BTUs at most, if I remember correctly.

[grumman581]

Personally, I would shoot for something closer to 50K BTUs. An indoor cooktop is around 15,000 BTUs at most, if I remember correctly.

That's probably a good goal. Most of the BTU ratings for these types of burners are going to be for propane (LPG) and with the higher pressure, the BTU ratings are going to be a bit more than what you might get at normal natural gas pressures at your home.

Of course, another good thing about this type of burner setup is that it works great for searing / blackening steaks outside instead of inside. You don't flood your kitchen with the smoke and you can pump a lot of BTUs into the cast iron skillet that you are using for the searing / blackening, so if you like the center of your steaks nice and bloody while the outside is normal looking, it works great.

I have a Jenn-Air cooktop in my kitchen. The highest BTUs that I've seen on any of their models is an 18,000 BTU element. Most are 10,000 BTUs or so at the max.

I have no idea what the BTU rating is on my smelting burner. It originally was a fish fryer burner that someone had welded up for my father and is probably 40 years old. Just given the number of jets in the burner, I would have to guess that it was one of the ones that are rated close to 200K BTUs when using LPG and a high pressure regulator. If I hook it up to just an LPG tank without a regulator, I can easily get a 6-8 ft blast of flame rising up. Quite impressive at night.

[icor1031]

I found a used pot, but it's only about 5" deep. (It's wider than it is tall.)

From what I can tell, ladles are usually about 2" deep (at the bowl.) ... Should I get a deeper pot?


Thanks.

[grumman581]

I found a used pot, but it's only about 5" deep. (It's wider than it is tall.)

From what I can tell, ladles are usually about 2" deep (at the bowl.) ... Should I get a deeper pot?


Can you weld? If so, go to a steel supply place and see if they have any scrap pieces of pipe in the diameter and height that you want. Weld a piece of plate steel to the bottom. IF you can weld a leak-proof weld between the two, you will have something that is better than cast iron. Cast iron can crack in certain situations (rapid heating / cooling cycles or impact). I have never had it happen on a pot that I was using (and I have beat the spoon against the edge of the pot many times when I was cooking with cast iron), but I have seen reports by others that it has happened to them. I have seen cast iron sewage pipe with cracks in it though. For the most part, steel dents, cast iron cracks (given similar wall thicknesses). Also, if you later decide that you want to make a bottom pour pot, it's easier if it is made from steel than if it is made from cast iron. Steel is a LOT easier to weld than cast iron. Sure, it's possible to weld cast iron, but you need to really know what you are doing if you want the repair to last. I am not that level of welder. I am more of the "well, I think it is watertight -- oops, let's try again" level of welder. :)

Optimally, you want to have the smallest amount of your alloy exposed to air as possible. Oxidation occurs on the part of the molten alloy that is exposed to air. That is why I suggest having a pot that is deeper than it is wider IF you can find it. I suspect that this is more important for casting than for smelting. For smelting, you also have to consider how easy it is to remove the steel clips from your molten metal pool in your smelting pot. You end up compromising a bit just because you don't want to be smelting a small quantity of wheelweights at a time. Another thing to consider is that the total surface area of the pot affect the heat radiation / absorption / retention of the pot. If I remember correctly, the most efficient (i.e. minimum surface area for a given volume) is one in which the diameter of the cylinder is equal to the height of the cylinder (i.e. h=2r). Of course, in our particular use we have to take into account that the cylinder is changing height (and as such, volume) while we are using it, so making it a bit taller is not unreasonable.

If you are smelting a 5g bucket of wheelweights, you will probably decide that a larger pot is a lot more convenient than a smaller pot. :)

Where are you located? There might be some people here that are close to you that would allow you to get some ideas from their setup.

[icor1031]

Can you weld?

I'm afraid I can't weld, I haven't invested in those tools yet. IIRC it will take an investment of about $500 to be able to weld ... 18ga(?) steel.

Thanks for the info.

[jmort]

Another option is a 20 pound propane tank. I got a used one for $5.00. Detox thread is good and my inspiration.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?201327-My-Big-Cheap-Melting-Pot

[grumman581]

I'm afraid I can't weld, I haven't invested in those tools yet. IIRC it will take an investment of about $500 to be able to weld ... 18ga(?) steel.


Nawh, you can find a Lincoln stick welder for $100-150 on Craigslist quite often. I wouldn't attempt to weld 18-gauge steel with it though. I have trouble enough welding 16-gauge. I much prefer 1/8" or thicker metal to weld. For a smelting or casting pot, I would probably go with something more around 1/4-3/8" for the wall thickness of the pipe and bottom plate -- maybe even up to 1/2" if I stumbled across it.

Another thing that many people use for smelting is an old 20-lb propane (LPG) BBQ/grill tank. Periodically, they need a new hydrostatic inspection before they can be refilled, but the tanks are so low cost that it is not worth it. As such, they get retired as scrap metal and you can often get them for very little cost from a place that refills the cylinders. They already have a bottom, so you don't have to weld one on them, thus reducing the amount of work that you would need to do. You just need to empty any remaining gas from them, remove the valve, rinse them out with water to ensure that there is no gas left in them, and then use an abrasive wheel in your circular saw to cut the top out of them. If you decide you need some handles on this "pot", it's a lot easier to do than trying to weld a perfectly watertight bottom on a piece of pipe. The abrasive blades for a circular saw cost around $2 or so, IIRC.

[icor1031]

Nawh, you can find a Lincoln stick welder for $100-150 on Craigslist quite often.

But that's just the welder. It doesn't include the wire, brushes, coveralls, darkening helmet, gloves, metal clamps, etc. Hence, ~$500.

The welder I saw on harbor freight does 1/4" max. Do you know of any MIG for a decent price that do 1/2"?

[icor1031]

Another option is a 20 pound propane tank. I got a used one for $5.00. Detox thread is good and my inspiration.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?201327-My-Big-Cheap-Melting-Pot

Thanks for the idea.

[grumman581]

But that's just the welder. It doesn't include the wire, brushes, coveralls, darkening helmet, gloves, metal clamps, etc. Hence, ~$500.

The welder I saw on harbor freight does 1/4" max. Do you know of any MIG for a decent price that do 1/2"?

I've tried MIG, but I wasn't very good at it. Too much splatter for my taste.

Gloves? You need them for smelting anyway.
Wire? Well, I do stick welding, so it's electrodes and they're not very expensive. The guy that was selling the AC-225 that I bought even threw in a box of electrodes and other stuff with it.
Brushes? I buy them from Harbor Freight for cleaning the surface on my gas grill, so that works well enough.
Helmet? $50 for an auto darkening one, but a regular one is cheaper and probably came with the AC-225 kit that the person originally bought and he might throw it in.
Clamps? You should already have plenty of C-clamps if your garage is even moderately stocked.
Coveralls? Don't need them. A Harbor freight welding apron is good enough and it's nice to have when you are smelting anyway.

Just keep an eye out on Craigslist for an old Lincoln AC-225. Sure, any professional welder is going to look down his nose at them, but they were used/abused by students in a lot of shop classes over the years are are still going strong. They are extremely simple in design and there just is not much to go wrong on them. Sure, it would be nice to have a top of the line Miller unit, but I just don't do enough welding to make it worthwhile to spend that much money on one.

Where are you located? Many of us would be willing to help you out if you're local.

[jmort]

"Do you know of any MIG for a decent price that do 1/2"?"

This will do 1/2" but it is 220. And is $669.00. I would go for the 120 volt 140 HD which will do 1/4"
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Lincoln-Electric-Weld-Pak-180-HD-Wire-Feed-Welder-K2515-1/100670932#.UlhPAdJONas

If you go with the "Box" arc welder, get one that does AC/DC. The DC mode is nice.

[grumman581]

"Do you know of any MIG for a decent price that do 1/2"?"

This will do 1/2" but it is 220. And is $669.00. I would go for the 120 volt 140 HD which will do 1/4"
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Lincoln-Electric-Weld-Pak-180-HD-Wire-Feed-Welder-K2515-1/100670932#.UlhPAdJONas

If you go with the "Box" arc welder, get one that does AC/DC. The DC mode is nice.

Brand new, the Lincoln AC225 is $300 and the AC/DC is $487 at Home Depot. I will definitely admit that having DC capability is nice to have, but you just don't see them that often on Craigslist and they are definitely not as cheap as the AC model. It is a 220V model and you will need to probably install a new outlet in your garage for it, but if you are moderately comfortable at working with electricity, it's not very difficult to do.

I'm guessing that the OP is perhaps located in South Dakota (unless someone else is also using that same screen name on the web).