405 or 375?

[jim4065]

About convinced myself that I need a moose gun - God knows why. I'm getting very fond of single-shots (mostly 'cause you get a lot of barrel length in a "short" rifle).

Toss in a weakness for weird cartridges, and I'm looking at the Ruger #1 Tropical in 405 Winchester (doesn't hurt that they're relatively cheap right now). Question is: Would I be better off staying with a 375 H&H? You can get it in the same gun for about a $100 bump, and it sure has a lot more molds available. (I know - it's mould, but our spell checker prefers the American spelling).

Anyway, I haven't seen a lot of threads on the 405 - but was TR ever wrong? Waters says you can plink (or shoot deer) with 41 mag boolits, so all I'd really need is a GB on a 300 grain Loverin. Trying to be impartial here, and failing badly. :neutral:

[Scrounger]

Is a .405 better than a .444 Marlin? Serious question.

[jim4065]

My only complaint with the 444 is the 1 in 38 twist rate. If I could get a quicker twist I'd sure look real hard at a ss "Guide Gun" in 444. Already have a 310 gr 6 cavity Lee mould that really wants a 444, but I've heard they don't shoot heavy boolits.

[jim4065]

Shut my mouth - went to the Marlin factory website and they say they've got a 1 in 20" twist rate now.

[dubber123]

How about a #1 in 45-70? Tons of power, classic cartridge, BIG bore.

[Scrounger]

Shut my mouth - went to the Marlin factory website and they say they've got a 1 in 20" twist rate now.
They started making those 5 or 6 years ago. I have one.

[IcerUSA]

The older 444's shoot the 300-310 gn. boolits very nicely, just have to run them up around max load, mine where running about 2-2 1/2 " on the start loads from the Lee book down to around 1- 1 1/2 " with the max load in the powders I have tried .

Might be able to go upto the 335 gn. boolit but that might be a touch heavy in the slow twist , seems alot of shooters like the 285 gn. boolit in the 444 , and for plinking I shot some in the 240-250 gn. range and they did good also .

Just some food for thought.

Keith

[Four Fingers of Death]

If you are only going to shoot lead the 405 would outshine the 375H&H with heavier boolits I suppose. The 375 would run rings around the 405 with jacketed I'm thinking.

Now, I gotta go check out the Marlin site, dang it, you guys are always finding ways to get me to spend more money!!!!!

I just had a thought, Teddy R was the only person of note that I remember waxing lyrical about the 405 and he called it 'Big medicine', but squillions of people reckon the 375 is 'bad Medicine.'

Mick.

[jim4065]

OK. You've convinced me. Thanks? :???: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=84065390

[Boz330]

For a guy with 40 in his handle you gave in awfully easy:kidding:
How can you go wrong with a Ruger #1 in a 40 cal? Sorry I'm a sucker for a 40.
List; .40 ML Ohio Squirrel rifle
38-40 92 Winchester
38-40 Colt replica
40-65 1885 Wicnhester by CSA
40-82 1886 Winchester
40 & 10 mm Colt 1911s
Wish list;
40-70SS 1885 Winchester by CSA / w MVA Scope



Bob

[StrawHat]

AS 4fingermick said, the 405 is the one if all you will shoot is lead.

I have a Winchester 1895 and all it sees is lead and it is a hoot to shoot. I can't imagine a better cast boolit gun.

It may never see a jacketed bullet!

Actually Hornandy has a couple of good jacketed loads, at least that is what I am told.

Good Luck

[Boz330]

AS 4fingermick said, the 405 is the one if all you will shoot is lead.

I have a Winchester 1895 and all it sees is lead and it is a hoot to shoot. I can't imagine a better cast boolit gun.

It may never see a jacketed bullet!

Actually Hornandy has a couple of good jacketed loads, at least that is what I am told.

Good Luck


If it is a 40 or more you don't need anything but cast unless your going to take on a Rhino or Elephant.

Bob

[bobk]

Just a comment on the Hornady bullets. Or should I say, the pointy one. I got some of these when I ordered brass for my .405 project. Reading between the lines on a report on using the factory ammo on deer, I got the notion to check the expansion on these bullets. The .405 was not assembled, so I pressed my .50 inline into service. I wrapped the bullet in masking tape until it was about a .45, and then stuck it in a sabot. The load was 100 by volume of 777, which gave a Buffalo 325 sabot about 1700. I figured this would approximate a 150 yard impact velocity. Shot it into wet newspapers. Expansion was zilch. Filed the tip off of one, and it did expand a little, but nothing great. That's what led me here, to learn about proper boolits for my .405.
Bob K

[Ranch Dog]

OK. You've convinced me. Thanks? :???: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=84065390

I take it you bought this rifle? I've got a number of customers in Sweden shooting both my 265 and 300-grain bullets in 1:38 and 1:20 rifles and they are hulling out the moose. I don't think that there is a limit on the critters in Sweden. Might be like feral hogs in Texas...

[6pt-sika]

Jim4065 , I think you have a couple nice choices there !
And since I already own a bolt action 375 H&H MAG that would be what I would go with from your two choices !

However I wouldn't be shooting cast in my 375 H&H MAG , most likely the Nosler 260 grain Partition [smilie=1:

If I were of the opinion to go after bullwinkel with cast bullets I would most likely take one of my Marlin 1895's in 45-70 and stuffed with Ranch Dog's 425 grain GC bullet made from 50% WW's and 50% Lino . And maybe watercooled on top of that !!! But before I went I would try some pentration tests with straight WW's , Lyman #2 and the 50/50 load air cooled and water quenched .

Another selling point to me for the Marin 1895 is quicker second third and fourth shots . Now hopefully you won't need more then one , but we do not live in a perfect world [smilie=1:

[6pt-sika]

OK. You've convinced me. Thanks? :???: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=84065390

I didn't realize you had purchased a 444 Marlin , thats another nice choice ! And if I were you I would do the same things I suggested with the 45-70 but with this 444 and the Ranch Dog 300 grain bullet !!!

[Lloyd Smale]

405s are cool! Realisticaly a 444 will do more and give you the option of shooting pistol bullets for plinking and theres more 44 molds then about any other caliber. Ive noticed those prices on the 405 #1s espcially the stainless ones. Pretty good deal! But i just cant warm up to a stainless #1

[jtaylor1960]

Check with Bullshop on the 405.I saw a recent post about a cast bullet moose kill written by him. I believe he used a soft nose cast bullet.

[Bass Ackward]

I think the No 1s in 405s are 12 twist which is what kills that for me.

[Marlin Junky]

I think the No 1s in 405s are 12 twist which is what kills that for me.

Looks to be 14", Bass:

http://ruger.com/Firearms/FAProdSpecsView?model=11306

They're available in blued form too.

MJ

[405]

Oops, 444 got the bid!
Since the thread ended at the Buy-It-Now, might as well add a little about the 405 I have experience with. Like StrawHat's, it's in a Win 95 oldie. Don't know if it has "famous VIP" credentials pedigree or not but I'm pretty sure the 444 doesn't have any to the tune of old TR either. Shoot, it was developed for the Win 95... a completely different platform than say a Ruger #1 or a long mag Mauser bolt gun or even a modern type lever gun :). Also was intended for a little different purpose.

First- it is very easy to load for... both in jacketed and cast loads. In jacketed, I think Hornady is phasing out the 300 gr Spire Point but they still make the 300 gr Flat Point. Since a conventional cup core bullet like the Hornady is not known for being a really tough I imagine that the failure to mushroom in wet newspaper is more a function of low impact velocity than stout bullet construction. The Flat Point Hornady J bullet is probably a better choice anyway.... the 405 is not exactly a long range type cartridge. The meplat on the Flat Point should assist a little in shedding some energy even if it doesn't expand much. As far as cast bullets.... also very easy to load for. My 95 slugs at .414 groove diameter. A 300 gr. FP GC at about 18 BHN sized to .414 over a medium load of 5744 has been excellent and as a bonus has same point of impact as the Hornady J Bullet over a medium load of 4895. I think the 405 Win is a little under rated just as the 35 Win. is under rated.

[Lloyd Smale]

id like to see Ruger chamber the 444 in the #1. It would be the perfect compromise between the 405 and 4570. I just picked up a #1 in 4570. I was having problems finding one in 4570 and almost went the 405 route. Finally found what i was looking for. Biggest part of the decision for me was i allready have reloading and casting equipt. for the 4570 and dies molds ect for the 405 would have just been more expense. Still might have to look at one in the future. It would probably outshine both the 4570 and the 444 when the ranges are stretched a little.

[405 WCF]

I have both the 444 and the 405!
My 444 is the older 444SS with 1/38 micro groove barrel, and the 405 is an old original Winchester 1895.

The 444 is accurate with what ever I load it with.
Castbullets up to 350 grs shots great.
In my 444, you dont need to run heavy cast bullets at max velocity for good accuracy, just size them big, ( .432 ) and find the best powder for the load.
The most accurate bullet is the 300 gr bullet from Ranch-Dog, but the 350 gr MM bullet is very good to, under 2 in at 100 yards. ( with a Leupold VXII 2-7x33)

But my 405 is turning my hair grey.
Lead, lead, lead, only after a few rounds.
So, I had a smith to check the bore with a bore scope.
And he told me that it was a little rough, :(, so, I must go with jacketed, or switch barrel.
Well, a new barrel is expensive, and my wallet is thin, so the 405 will stay at home, at least untill my wallet is thicker.

[Four Fingers of Death]

But i just cant warm up to a stainless #1

Why not get a stainless one and buy/swap a walnut stock/forend, that would look cool.

[Lloyd Smale]

mick i have seen the stainless walnut ones and do like the looks better then the stainless laminate ones but to me a #1 is a classic design that just doesnt look right stainless. Its about like buy a stainless sharps. Rummor is that ruger is going to make a limited run of 1a in 2503000. Now that had me all in a sweat until i found out they were going to be stainless/walnut. Im a big enough fan of the 250 that i might have to make an exception and buy one but if they were blued #1 id have to break the credit card out for a couple of them.

[Boz330]

I have both the 444 and the 405!
My 444 is the older 444SS with 1/38 micro groove barrel, and the 405 is an old original Winchester 1895.

The 444 is accurate with what ever I load it with.
Castbullets up to 350 grs shots great.
In my 444, you dont need to run heavy cast bullets at max velocity for good accuracy, just size them big, ( .432 ) and find the best powder for the load.
The most accurate bullet is the 300 gr bullet from Ranch-Dog, but the 350 gr MM bullet is very good to, under 2 in at 100 yards. ( with a Leupold VXII 2-7x33)

But my 405 is turning my hair grey.
Lead, lead, lead, only after a few rounds.
So, I had a smith to check the bore with a bore scope.
And he told me that it was a little rough, :(, so, I must go with jacketed, or switch barrel.
Well, a new barrel is expensive, and my wallet is thin, so the 405 will stay at home, at least untill my wallet is thicker.

Have you thought about fire lapping it? If you need a bore scope to see the roughness, I would think it would be a perfect candidate. A whole lot cheaper than a barrel.

Bob

[405 WCF]

The smith said that it was rust in the barrel.:(
So, I dont think that a firelapping would do any difference.

[405]

405 WCF,
I hate it when that happens. Really no good solution. An original Win 95 in 405 by itself is a fairly valuable collector gun- even with a bore that fouls. Its value may actually go down if you have to re-barrel. Quite a decision I imagine. Then again a rough bore that fouls is not so much fun to shoot. I know I have a couple that way. One, a Win 1885 in 32-40, shoots great with a fairly heavy load of 5744 under a hard cast 190GC. But the dang cleaning session after 5-10 rounds takes an hour easy :(

The original 95 405 I have has a pristine bore. I feel extremely fortunate and lucky in finding it. It is easy to load for and shoots extremely well. At least I know what shooters and hunters had when they bought one new 100 years ago. Kind of a peek at history.

If you get a new, smooth barrel for the 95 405..... you will enjoy it... they are a kick to shoot!!! Good luck- which ever decision

[Boz330]

I'm not sure what it does to collector value but relining might be a good option. I had a 40-82 1886 Winny done a number of years ago and you can't hardly tell and it shoots pretty good although I haven't found the best load yet.

Bob

[Four Fingers of Death]

If the relining is not an option, you'd probably be better off selling it to a collector and buying another shooter. It'd be a shame though, you probably won't find another in 405 with a good barrel in a hurry, so maybe a No1 would be an option.

[405 WCF]

Well, I will keep my 405 as it is, and shot jacketed bullets.
If I become rich some day, I let a smit rebarrel it.

BTW: Will paperpatch lead less in a rusty, rough barrel?