Tell me why....

[Wilkie]

I have been reloading brass cartridges from .223 to 350 Win Mag. and everything in between for a while now. This muzzleload thing is an enigma. Why in the world can we not work up loads in these weapons using smokeless? I've seen the videos of the CVA guy loading up 100 grains of a pistol powder and blowing up a bunch of guns saying to never use smokeless....well duh. If I loaded up my .45 with that many grains of powder under a .452 bullet, it would blow up too. So I can load up a 500 grain bullet with 100 grains of bp in a .50 ML and no one even blinks. What are the pressures these guns are under? Surely we are up over 30,000 cup or more. I don't understand why.....I need help understanding what is really going on in my weapon.

[GARD72977]

There are plenty of handless guys that have tried this. I bet they would respond if they could type.

[aspangler]

Bp and BP substitutes are in reality low pressure loads when loaded correctly. Smokeless powder is a high pressure powder. The metal in the barrel of MOST ML rifles and pistols is a milder steel than that used in smokeless powder barrels. There are exceptions, the Savage ML is one and I think Remington made one designed for smokeless powder at one time. Not sure they still do. The steel in the barrel is the main reason you can't (or shouldn't) try to use smokeless in a ML. Hope this helps.

[Wilkie]

Bp and BP substitutes are in reality low pressure loads when loaded correctly. Smokeless powder is a high pressure powder. The metal in the barrel of MOST ML rifles and pistols is a milder steel than that used in smokeless powder barrels. There are exceptions, the Savage ML is one and I think Remington made one designed for smokeless powder at one time. Not sure they still do. The steel in the barrel is the main reason you can't (or shouldn't) try to use smokeless in a ML. Hope this helps.

A little bit. To be clear I will NEVER load with smokeless. I just want to understand what pressures the ML endures vs. my other weapons....I can't find any real info on pressures.

[GARD72977]

im not even buying it with the ones that are designed for smokless powder. Search Savage Muzzleloader accident. The pic are worse than a horror movie. You would be essentially reloading a cartridge in the field. You would have to take weighed powder charges with you. There are just too many things that could go wrong!

[dtknowles]

If you use a tool in a manner that is not approved by the designer and manufacturer do no be surprised if it fails. Been there, done that, got the trash to prove it. With a firearm the failure modes are very dangerous if not fatal.

I have seen a small amount of black powder pressure data and I don't remember seeing any pressures in the range you indicated but it was mostly black powder pistol cartridge data with pressures in the 15k to 20K range and I don't remember if it was PSI or CUP.

If you want to shoot smokeless in a ML buy one that was designed for smokeless. Even then you have to be careful about what powder you use.

Do you know someone who is loading the BP ML with smokeless?

A scientist or engineer might be able to design an experiment (carefully controlled) to certify a particular BP ML (specific make model and production lot) for use with a limited range of nitro loads after each gun was "Nitro Proofed." It is certainly not a simple start low and work up until you see pressure signs wildcat type of development. I would not be surprised if those hypothetical engineers might not blow up a couple nice guns before they get it right.

Tim

[Sergeant Earthworm]

Well, it's not quite so simple. I know shooters who load what were once BP cartridges with slow burning smokeless powder with no problems at all, but that does not mean it can be done with muzzleloaders. This is in part due to the fact that many muzzleloader barrels are made of steel with lower tensile strength and microscopic cracks and so are too weak to handle smokeless powder pressures.

Probably the more important reason is the physics involved with burn rate and pressure levels. The pressure curve of burning smokeless powder is very steep, while with BP and substitutes pressure builds more slowly. That is where the problem lies. Even a small charge of most smokeless powders produces maximum pressure very quickly. It isn't so much the amount of powder as it is the nearly-instantaneous pressure produced by smokeless that precludes its use in muzzleloaders.

And besides, with smokeless you don't get that lovely aroma of burning coal and sulfur.

[Wilkie]

Well, it's not quite so simple. I know shooters who load what were once BP cartridges with slow burning smokeless powder with no problems at all, but that does not mean it can be done with muzzleloaders. This is in part due to the fact that many muzzleloader barrels are made of steel with lower tensile strength and microscopic cracks and so are too weak to handle smokeless powder pressures.








Probably the more important reason is the physics involved with burn rate and pressure levels. The pressure curve of burning smokeless powder is very steep, while with BP and substitutes pressure builds more slowly. That is where the problem lies. Even a small charge of most smokeless powders produces maximum pressure very quickly. It isn't so much the amount of powder as it is the nearly-instantaneous pressure produced by smokeless that precludes its use in muzzleloaders.

And besides, with smokeless you don't get that lovely aroma of burning coal and sulfur.

So what is the biggest bullet you would load into a .50 cal with what load? Like was mentioned its not like I can look for pressure signs as I work up a load....If you want to smell of sulfur you should come to Thermopolis Wyoming. The hotel I'm in sits right on a sulfur hot springs.

[starmac]

One good reason I won't think about it is that there happens to be a threaded breech plug looking right at my face when I pull the trigger.

[waksupi]

If you use a tool in a manner that is not approved by the designer and manufacturer do no be surprised if it fails. Been there, done that, got the trash to prove it. With a firearm the failure modes are very dangerous if not fatal.

I have seen a small amount of black powder pressure data and I don't remember seeing any pressures in the range you indicated but it was mostly black powder pistol cartridge data with pressures in the 15k to 20K range and I don't remember if it was PSI or CUP.

If you want to shoot smokeless in a ML buy one that was designed for smokeless. Even then you have to be careful about what powder you use.

Do you know someone who is loading the BP ML with smokeless?

A scientist or engineer might be able to design an experiment (carefully controlled) to certify a particular BP ML (specific make model and production lot) for use with a limited range of nitro loads after each gun was "Nitro Proofed." It is certainly not a simple start low and work up until you see pressure signs wildcat type of development. I would not be surprised if those hypothetical engineers might not blow up a couple nice guns before they get it right.

Tim

Welcomed words of wisdom!

[bubba.50]

if ya really need all that extra power just shoot the appropriate & properly loaded cartridge gun. in the project yer proposin' there would be a lot of excitin' stuff goin' on right in front of yer nose with all that pressure jettin' out the nipple. in a side hammer it might even blow the hammer or parts thereof into yer sinuses. in an inline it might be the bolt slappin' ya upside the head. but, when all is said & done, it's your life/body parts at risk here. but please be considerate of any bystanders.

[Hellgate]

The pressures generated by BP & smokeless powders are far enough apart that in order to get accurate pressure measurements Lyman went to LUP (Lead Units of pressure) for BP and CUP (Copper Units of Pressure) for smokeless which are obviously not interchangeable. A crusher type instrument was used. I'm not sure if PSI can be used for both or not.

[Junior1942]

There are plenty of handless guys that have tried this. I bet they would respond if they could type.And lots of those handless guys are one-eyed..... There's a reason original muzzloading firearms are so scarce.

[FergusonTO35]

Sadly, right now BP substitute is the only powder you can find in most places around here. Even if I could use smokeless in my front stuffer I would save it for my cartridge guns. Sometimes I wish I could use smokeless powder, but then again I disdain sabots, pelletized powder, and scopes on muzzleloaders so why make an exception for smokeless powder? It's bad enough I'm stuck with BP substitute, which also necessitates the use of shotgun primers.

[451 Pete]

If you want to know a bit more about the pressure that black powder will develop get a copy of the "Lyman Black Powder and Loading Manual". Pressures are listed in PSI. Keep in mind that there is not a direct correlation to accurately convert from CUP to LUP ( lead units of pressure ) or to PSI only rough comparisons can be made. Even doing a rough comparison black powder loads are way below 30,000 CUP.

As others here have said smokeless and black powder develop pressure differently and softer metal used in black powder guns will stress from using smokeless. Smokeless seems to develop its pressure just ahead of the breech where black distributes the pressure over more of the barrel length. It may not be the catastrophic failure of a barrel today or tomorrow or even next week, but barrels not designed for smokeless powder will eventually fail. Knowing that, I can think of better ways to spend my day than wondering if today is the day my luck ran out. I also enjoy shooting these things way too much to have that on the back of my mind each time I pull the trigger. Only use black powder or black powder substitutes in black powder guns period.

Pete

[GARD72977]

This is the kind of suff that is going to get muzzleloaders on the evening news. New headline "Muzzleloaders BANNED" Maybe they will blame it on the liberals. "A bomb was taken to a local shooting range and all the people on the line were KILLED and some bystanders injured" Must have been a anti-gun fanatic.

[fouronesix]

Sadly, right now BP substitute is the only powder you can find in most places around here. Even if I could use smokeless in my front stuffer I would save it for my cartridge guns. Sometimes I wish I could use smokeless powder, but then again I disdain sabots, pelletized powder, and scopes on muzzleloaders so why make an exception for smokeless powder? It's bad enough I'm stuck with BP substitute, which also necessitates the use of shotgun primers.

You can get real BP shipped to your door for about the same if not less than local retail substitutes.

5 lb minimum for 22.30 per lb. or 10 lb minimum for 17.10 per lb. Go in with with another BP shooter and get 5 lb for 17.10 per lb. Shelf life for BP is at least a few hundred years.

[siamese4570]

When you get right down to it. BP is made using charcoal, some sort of nitrate and a bunch of other medieval stuff. Smokeless is nitroglycerin based. Smokeless is a much more powerful (weight to weight) explosive, consequently it generates much higher pressures. Muzzleloaders (new or old) are not designed for the high pressures generated by smokeless. I had a friend tell me he saw a guy using smokeless in a caplock gun once and the pressure generated was jetting enough gas back thru the nipple to half cock the hammer when the gun was fired. He didn't stay to watch. Also what fouronesix said, I just priced BP at grafs and even paying the hazmat fee, it was pretty reasonable.
siamese4570

[obssd1958]

Wilkie,

Here is a link to a discussion on the Muzzleloading forum about BP pressures and barrels -

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/233525/


Hope this helps!





Don

[John Allen]

Putting smokeless powder in a muzzleloader is just asking for a catastrophic failure. It might not be you that is injured but the guy next to you. I know if I saw this happening next to me there would be many not so nice words to be said.

[FergusonTO35]

I still have a couple cans of Pyrodex to use up, but when they're gone I'll place an order for the real stuff.

[fouronesix]

I don't think the OP was suggesting using smokeless in a muzzleloader but nonetheless the discussion is worthwhile. The physics, as others have pointed out, doesn't work right.

First, there is no comparison between the chemical energy stored in a given amount of BP to the same amount of smokeless. Second, there is no comparison between the progressive burn rate curves between the two powder types.

You can probably use a very small amount of smokeless in a traditional ML and get a way with it. I knew a fellow about 40 years ago doing it with Bullseye and he kept doing it no matter how I tried to convince him otherwise. The reality is that there is no advantage and a big potential downside- because to stay on the safe side of the progressive and very steep pressure curve of smokeless you actually end up with inferior ballistics.

The getting away with it while staying on the safe side of that very sharp pressure curve is THE problem. Example: Load a 400 grain bullet in a conventional ML on top of a small quantity of smokeless. Get a peak pressure of maybe 5-10k psi with muzzle velocity of maybe 700-800 fps (not too good as to objective and no where near what a safe load of BP could produce). Add only a grain or two (maybe even by mistake!) to that small charge and get a peak pressure of 30k+ psi and Kaboom! Either.... what's the point or that is the point.

[Wilkie]

I don't think the OP was suggesting using smokeless in a muzzleloader but nonetheless the discussion is worthwhile. The physics, as others have pointed out, doesn't work right.

First, there is no comparison between the chemical energy stored in a given amount of BP to the same amount of smokeless. Second, there is no comparison between the progressive burn rate curves between the two powder types.

You can probably use a very small amount of smokeless in a traditional ML and get a way with it. I knew a fellow about 40 years ago doing it with Bullseye and he kept doing it no matter how I tried to convince him otherwise. The reality is that there is no advantage and a big potential downside- because to stay on the safe side of the progressive and very steep pressure curve of smokeless you actually end up with inferior ballistics.

The getting away with it while staying on the safe side of that very sharp pressure curve is THE problem. Example: Load a 400 grain bullet in a conventional ML on top of a small quantity of smokeless. Get a peak pressure of maybe 5-10k psi with muzzle velocity of maybe 700-800 fps (not too good as to objective and no where near what a safe load of BP could produce). Add only a grain or two (maybe even by mistake!) to that small charge and get a peak pressure of 30k+ psi and Kaboom! Either.... what's the point or that is the point.

Thank you. You are right. I have no intentions of ever using smokeless in my ML. I'm just curious about the physics. I'm also curious how heavy of a bullet with what load you have used with ML. Thanks for the feedback!

[starmac]

Reading this thread makes me leary of buying a used muzzy. Who is to say that even though your buddy got by without ever having a problem a problem with the bullseye, that the threads in the breachplug are not stretched to the point of being a timebomb.

[KCSO]

#1 the nipple has to have a big enough hole to set off the charge and smokless pressures will eat that out in a big hurry.
#2 The nipple is held in with 3 or 4 threads usually 1/4-28 and that is all that stands between your head and the powder charge. This is adaquate for the 6-10,000 psi of a black powder charge and is NOT safe with the 15-30,000 from smokless.
#3 most of the cheap M/L on the market today are at best adaquate with black and some are down right dangersous with anything let alone smokless powder.

#4 If you want a gun to shoot smokless don't bother looking at muzzleloaders they aren't for you.

[Hanshi]

A little bit. To be clear I will NEVER load with smokeless. I just want to understand what pressures the ML endures vs. my other weapons....I can't find any real info on pressures.



Even heavy bp rifle loads in MLs have pressures 14,000 to 20,000 psi. Smokeless handguns often operate at double that and cf rifles at easily three to four times that pressure. Plus the burning characteristics and burn rate of black is totally unlike smokeless.

[fouronesix]

Thank you. You are right. I have no intentions of ever using smokeless in my ML. I'm just curious about the physics. I'm also curious how heavy of a bullet with what load you have used with ML. Thanks for the feedback!

I found long ago that because BP is relatively inefficient, the law of diminishing returns usually kicks in well before BP proof pressures are approached, (something like double ball/double charge type loads). I also found manufacturers suggested max is plenty. Even within safe pressure limits using BP charges, sometimes you can just tell by how much blow back through the vent or nipple is getting to be too much. Just the recoil will tell you about max loads in a 54 caliber T/C Renegade shooting a Maxiball and few people find a need to exceed those suggested max loads after trying a few. A chronograph used with BP will confirm you are within published parameters of velocity thus indirectly pressures.

I feel very comfortable with what T/C lists as their suggested max loads for both their 45 & 50 caliber Hawken models. And it turns out my best 50 cal accuracy is achieved with the Maxiball right at that suggested level. Additionally, along with the fine accuracy, I've found for example the 50 cal 370 gr Maxiball with a muzzle velocity of around 1400 fps is one effective game getter for deer, elk and black bear within reasonable ranges dictated by variable field conditions, iron sights, trajectory and accurate bullet placement on target. For me that is about 100 yards or less- with 50 yards being just about ideal. My best Maxiball load in a T/C 50 cal Hawken is... pure lead Maxiball, .050 card wad, 80 gr FFF ~1400 fps.

The T/C suggested max loads for the Roundball and Maxiball are (and have been since the early to mid 70s):
Hawken Model 45 & 50 (15/16" across the flats barrel)
Roundball max 110 FF
Maxiball max 100 FF

[Smoke4320]

I shoot a 58 cal 585 grain bullet out of a 1858 enfield
my 50 cal more modern CVA gets a 300 grain projectile .. Very accurate I might add

[johnson1942]

please dont go that way. one thing i found out researching actions for black powder cartridge rifles, the larger the bore the less the pressure. a 50/70 has less pressure than a 38/55 , but as far as muzzle loaders go every one agrees here stick with black or the subs. beside black powder is very very accurate. have fun and clean between rounds.

[fouronesix]

one thing i found out researching actions for black powder cartridge rifles, the larger the bore the less the pressure.

That's true all other things being equal. Ballistically, it's call the principle of expansion ratio and applies to both BP and smokeless.

[Wilkie]

Thank you all for the information! The more I learn about these Muzzleloaders the more fascinated I become and the more I want to know. Excellent feedback.

[Omnivore]

Besides just saying NEVER DO IT! and leaving the shooter to wonder why, this thread is a good source of info. Smokeless powder was developed, of course, at a time when all guns were using BP, and so some guns built for using BP were then used with the new smokeless loads. BUT, and there are several "but"s, some BP guns using the new smokeless loads did explode (smokeless technology started out being relatively primitive) AND in this case we're talking about metal cartridges, where bullet seating depth relative to the powder charge can be very precisely controlled and there is no reliance on a threaded breech plug to contain the pressure. Even today there are commercial smokeless loads being made for use in old guns originally loaded with BP in the same cartridge. 38 Special and 45-70 are but two examples, but even then the ammo makers will warn you over and over to make sure the firearm is in good condition and safe to shoot before using their products. In other words, even when everything has been tested over and over and tightly controlled; "Buyer Beware".

It very quickly became routine to have "Nitro Proofed" guns, verses the BP guns. Even today, you'll often see warnings on ammo boxes saying NEVER use smokeless loads in old Damascus shotgun barrels, for example, even though their "Dram Equivalent" specs suggest it would be OK. Dram (of black powder) equivalent performance is not dram equivalent pressure.

[quilbilly]

Chemically, black powder is considered a low velocity explosive. Smokeless powder is considered a medium to high velocity explosive when confined. When touched off, that is one of the reasons why black powder rifles sound so different from modern smokeless rifles even if muzzle velocities are similar.

[Wilkie]

From the pics that I've seen when failure occurs it looks like the barrels fail. I would have thought the breach plug would blow out first. This has been a very good post. Thank you all for the info.

[Boerrancher]

Wilkie, the maximum amount of pressure under optimal conditions is 36,000 PSI for black powder. No matter how much you use that 36k is all you are going to get. Smokeless powder can generate well over 100k PSI. As has been stated the working pressures in muzzle loaders is 15 to 20k. You could put 500 grains of black in a ML and not get anymore pressure. Under the right conditions 3 gr of the right smokeless powder can give you 40 to 60 kPSI

Best wishes,

Joe

[Geraldo]

Thank you. You are right. I have no intentions of ever using smokeless in my ML. I'm just curious about the physics. I'm also curious how heavy of a bullet with what load you have used with ML. Thanks for the feedback!

I don't know why you're curious about bullet weight, but you can find most of it easily enough. In my .54 I've loaded a 430gr Maxi Ball and up to 110gr of FFg Goex. In a very fast twist (1:18") .45 Green Mountain barrel I've used 425gr bullets and 80gr of FFg, but understand that it's not an ordinary barrel and it burns out nipples quickly.

[bob208]

to answer the op's question. there are just certain things in the universe you do not do. tug on superman's cape , pull the mask off the lone ranger , spit into the wind or use smokeless powder in a muzzle loader.

[aspangler]

Thank you. You are right. I have no intentions of ever using smokeless in my ML. I'm just curious about the physics. I'm also curious how heavy of a bullet with what load you have used with ML. Thanks for the feedback!

I have shot (one time) a 515 gr boolit over 90 gr ffg. Like I said, one time. My shoulder screamed "NO MORE!!!!"

[451 Pete]

In testing by the United States Navy between 1874 and 1878 and under laboratory conditions, tested and recorded pressure's using black powder exceeded 100,000 psi. , well above the safety limits of modern barrel steels. Now I am not saying that you can generate this kind of pressure with a barrel which has an open end for gas to escape allowing pressure to be relieved but black powder can generate a huge amount of pressure in something such as a barrel that has an obstruction blocking it, so don't ever think that just because a barrel is of modern manufacture or of modern quality steel as advertised by a manufacturer that any amount of black powder is safe or the barrel cannot ever be over loaded using any amount of black powder... you would be wrong.

Pete

[Rattus58]

There are plenty of handless guys that have tried this. I bet they would respond if they could type.Hahahaha..... yup... and one of my clients went to an NRA class to get his instructors certificate and this guy was using trailboss. When asked about it, the just said... "I'm using it aint I!!"

I've used smokeless in my Whites in conjunction with the developer of the rifle. Our loads were low pressure loads, a sealed breech kept at load limits less than those for trapdoor rifles. Pretty controlled.

Smokeless has lots of bad things going for it. Slower pressure buildup, longer pulse or wave or whatever they call it, and with a side lock, just think where the excess goes. Smokeless in a sidelock is absolutely foolhardy.

For other rifles that have stronger breech systems, you have two issues. One is the breech plug itself. Smokeless cuts metal as efficiently as a torch. Even with a locked breech, after that first shot it working towards weakening your breech plug. That's one. Two, most of you folks use sabots in them guns. I've got it that sabots create considerably more pressure than a lead conical thus possibly compounding the effects of the smokeless gas cutting and pressure effects. So here is my prescription... if you want to use smokeless, use it in a black powder clone... like a Ruger #1... :grin: Or Sharps....

Aloha... :cool: :grin:

[Col4570]

http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s452/livebattery/003-10.jpg (http://s1052.photobucket.com/user/livebattery/media/003-10.jpg.html)
This is a Barrel that failed under Proof test.As an illustration of what can happen with excess loading.

[Walter Laich]

got a link to a series of pic where a Savage bolt action ML blew. Graphic pic of what happened to his hand.

I think of it each time I go out to reload

Walt (still with all 10 fingers)

[M-Tecs]

Currently there are two types of muzzleloaders. The most common are black powder and black powder substitutes only. Smokeless is not safe in these due to design and material shortcomings. The design of the cap or primer system is not compatible with the higher pressure of smokeless loads. The same for the material used for barrels and breech plugs. The material is normally a leaded type of mild steel that is fine for black and sub but definitely not suitable for smokeless.

The second type are the smokeless type muzzleloaders like the Savage 10ML II or the semi-custom rifles like:
http://badbullmuzzleloaders.com/
http://www.smokelessmuzzleloading.com/
http://www.performancegunworks.com/Big-Dawg-Muzzleloaders.html
http://www.richardscustomrifles.com/custommuzzleloader.htm
http://www.prbullet.com/
http://www.dsscustomguns.com/custom-smokeless-muzzleloaders.aspx
http://www.swinglock.net/home.php


Good place to learn about smokeless ML’s
http://www.sav10ml.com/
http://www.chuckhawks.com/savage_ML_FAQ.htm
http://www.smokelessmz.com/
http://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/forum/
http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/

[Wilkie]

So I've been doing a lot of reading and research on smokeless and Holy Black. I agree with a lot of the previous posts. From what I can gather BP is very inefficient at making gas when it burns. Lots of material in the powder does not get turned into gas. I've seen efficiency of producing expansive gas of around 20%. Smokeless is super efficient at turning into a gas-close to 100% of the material turns to gas. Also, for the most part smokeless produces gobs more pressure when it is a compressed load. (There are exceptions in handloading but even these compressions are slight compared to ramming a bullet down a barrel with a ram rod) BP is very tolerant of compression and increases pressures slowly. Using a smokeless powder in a ML safely would require a precision with loading that is impossible due to the nature of how projectiles are loaded. If you are dumb enough to load smokeless in a ML the pressures of seating the bullet don't raise in a linear fashion. It's almost exponential. I'm not even convinced there is a safe point with any smokeless powder in a muzzleloader. The pressures that are created when using smokeless in a ML can exceed safety levels even for a modern rifle, little alone a cheap barrel made in Spain(which is where mine was made) So the take home message is NEVER use smokeless in a Muzzleloader!

[Wilkie]

By the way. Thanks for the feedback on this question. I love this forum!

[Hickory]

A little bit. To be clear I will NEVER load with smokeless. I just want to understand what pressures the ML endures vs. my other weapons....I can't find any real info on pressures.

I believe this is one of those "live and learn" situations in life we often hear about.

[M-Tecs]

Also, for the most part smokeless produces gobs more pressure when it is a compressed load. (There are exceptions in handloading but even these compressions are slight compared to ramming a bullet down a barrel with a ram rod) BP is very tolerant of compression and increases pressures slowly.

The only thing correct in your post above is to never use smokeless powder in a muzzle loader rated for black powder only. The rest of it at best is misinformation.

With a ramrod you are hard pressed to get sixty pounds compression. In a loading press you can generate a thousand + pounds of force.

Compressing smokeless have very little to do with the pressure of the load http://www.reloadbench.com/gloss/compress.html

Black Powder in a confined space (pressure vessel) will max out at about 36,000 PSI. I don’t know what the max is for smokeless is but I have seen tests as high as 179,000 psi.


Using a smokeless powder in a ML safely would require a precision with loading that is impossible due to the nature of how projectiles are loaded .


The original target guns of the 1880’s – early 1900 where breech loaded rifles with false muzzles loaded through the front to increase accuracy and precision. Look up Harry Pope rifles and accomplishments. They were also using smokeless in some of these. Today's smokeless muzzle loading crowd is using full formed bullets (no sabot) with incredible accuracy.

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2009/08/history-harry-pope.html

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2011/04/history-directions-for-handling-pope.html

http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/thread/13487/building-full-form-bullet-sizing

http://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1149608940


If you are dumb enough to load smokeless in a ML the pressures of seating the bullet don't raise in a linear fashion. It's almost exponential. I'm not even convinced there is a safe point with any smokeless powder in a muzzleloader .


These folks would disagree with you.

http://www.sav10ml.com/
https://s3.amazonaws.com/savagefiles/manuals/manual_muzzleloader_10mlii.pdf page 14 for smokeless loads
http://www.chuckhawks.com/savage_ML_FAQ.htm
http://www.smokelessmz.com/
http://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/forum/
http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/board/23/savage-smokeless-muzzleloading
http://badbullmuzzleloaders.com/
http://forum.snipershide.com/snipers-hide-bolt-action-rifles/55058-building-smokeless-muzzleloader-700-rem.html
http://www.dsscustomguns.com/custom-smokeless-muzzleloaders.aspx
http://www.chuckhawks.com/william_ball.htm
http://www.hankinscustomrifles.com/rifles.html
http://www.richardscustomrifles.com/custommuzzleloader.htm
http://www.performancegunworks.com/Big-Dawg-Muzzleloaders.html
http://www.swinglock.net/home.php
http://www.chuckhawks.com/difference_black_powders.htm

[XTR]

You can shoot smokeless in a Savage ML, or in a Remington with a barrel made for it, but put it into your TC or Knight and you're gonna blow it up. There are a lot of people who shoot smokeless MLs. (self) BUT, unlike loading a cartridge there is really no capacity limitation to keep you from being stupid, then again if you pour 70 grains of Unique into a 45-70 case you're gonna put on a show when you drop the hammer on that too.

If you go to http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/ there are actually a whole lot of pressure traces on smokeless loads in Savage MLIIs

If you feel that you are not able to adequately measure and pour powder you need to leave smokeless MLs alone. As for in the field loading. I carry my weighed charges in 7mmRM cases with foam earplugs in them. Pop the top and pour it in, push down a sabot with a cast bullet on top and I'm ready to shoot, again, no spit patching, fouling, and if I don't clean it for a yr, who cares.

Want to see pictures of an exploded 1911A1? Well, sorry didn't take any but I blew one of those up in 1989 or '90, it wasn't the pistols fault.

[mack1]

I have not read the entire thread so maby this has been mentioned but in a muzzleloader the boolet is stationary in the barrel like loading a bullet into the lands also the seal for the ignition is a problem, I think that is what ended the savage smokless.

[C. Latch]

Add me to the list of very satisfied Savage Smokeless customers. Been shooting mine for a decade now - including shooting the ramrod out of it over a very heavy charge of lil'gun back when that powder was the rage - with no damage yet. I'm largely convinced that the scare stories of savages blowing up are 100% due to operator error, and some of the high-profile cases may well have been intentional, by people out to smear the savage's reputation. Anyway, mine kills the snot out of deer. I certainly wouldn't try it with any other production muzzleloader, though.

[XTR]

I have no idea why Savage took the MLII out of production. I'm just glad I have one. They do have a lower threshold for dumbassery than a cartridge or a BP muzzle loader, but the gene pool needs a little chlorine now and again anyway.

[mooman76]

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/284246/ More this is why.

[nanuk]

I'd like to see Larry Gibson do some pressure trace experiments with his guns loaded with factory level loads, BP level loads and loads WITH BP, and then compare them.

[longbow]

I know you are asking a legitimate question and so far have received a lot of good answers but I can't help but add a bit.

As stated well by dtknowles ~ "...the tool was not designed for smokeless powder."

A mistake many people make is assuming...

"Surely we are up over 30,000 cup or more."

No we are not using BP in muzzleloaders!

A quick check in the Lyman Black Powder Handbook will tell you that. Pressures run about 1/2 that or less and are listed generally in LUP.

Back in the "old days" when I was young, information was not so easy to find. If you didn't have a Lyman Black Powder Handbook or Hodgdon handbook and if you didn't know anyone with a loading book with pressures listed and there was no local gun store that had one you were sort of out of luck.

However, now with the internet access we have, a few keystrokes will usually bring up enough information to give some guidance.

Within a few pages I turned up:

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/black-powder/95534-black-powder-pressures-velocity-chart.html
http://powderburns.tripod.com/powder.html
http://www.chuckhawks.com/unsafe_muzzleloaders.htm
http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-results_schedules/documents/pedersoli_proof_rules_and_allowable_limits_09-04.htm
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/281698/
http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=8018.0

Some BP cartridge gun pressures are up around 30,000 PSI but no muzzleloader data I have found so far.

No need for anyone to become a Darwin award recipient.

Not lecturing, just adding some reference for others.

Longbow

Yikes! Whilst I was typing the thread grew a lot! Probably much of the same as I have added. Now I have to re-read.

Hahahaha! My bad! I didn't type that slow, I missed a page... DOH!

[fouronesix]

While the academics of why are worth the study- and BTW well known and understood by those willing to study the ballistic data, I can't help but think that the original purpose of primitive weapons hunts and their set-aside season dates were for primitive weapons. If you want the technology to outrun the sport then it surely seems to be doing so to the detriment of the sport. If you want to shoot targets at long range with some smokeless "ML" contraption more power to you. If you want to partake in a primitive weapons season then use a primitive weapon. If you want to use a modern ML smokeless contraption that is no different than a high power center fire single shot then hunt during the regular high power center fire season. If you want to push the envelope and flirt with "Darwin" I have no problem with that either- just do it far away from me.

[XTR]

...I can't help but think that the original purpose of primitive weapons hunts and their set-aside season dates were for primitive weapons. If you want the technology to outrun the sport then it surely seems to be doing so to the detriment of the sport. If you want to shoot targets at long range with some smokeless "ML" contraption more power to you. If you want to partake in a primitive weapons season then use a primitive weapon. If you want to use a modern ML smokeless contraption that is no different than a high power center fire single shot then hunt during the regular high power center fire season. If you want to push the envelope and flirt with "Darwin" I have no problem with that either- just do it far away from me.


You may find that your concept of the reasons behind the "primitive" season is in error today. Whether it be modern inline MLs or crossbows both are now well accepted in many places and neither has resulted in the decimation of the deer population, quite the contrary. Maybe when the primitive seasons were started thirty odd yrs ago that was the point, and I understand that in some states out west there are still restrictions to keep it "primitive", but today in many parts of the US, esp in the east, the point is game management. No matter how "easy" you think it is there are still fewer hunters in ML and Archery than in rifle season. Here in TN archery and ML season is doe season, in MS they've completely done away with the ML requirement and only require that it be a single shot of .35 cal or larger I think, (which by the way has resulted in a HUGE resurgence of the 35 Whelen). The major benefit of these seasons is population control.

In the last three yrs I've harvested 4 does in ML season with a Knight rolllingblock, this yr I've switched to a Savage MLII. Loaded with a 250 Sabot over 70gr of IMR4198 it makes about 2400FPS and I can shoot dead hold all the way out to 200 yards with a 175 yard zero. It's +2 at 100 and about -2 at 200. I like it. I'll be carrying it on a Management area quota hunt next weekend. Hopefully I can tag two more.

As for flirting with Darwin, shooting a ML designed for smokeless is not, shooting smokeless in a firearm not designed for it is not just flirting, it's going to end badly.

[fouronesix]

You may find that your concept of the reasons behind the "primitive" season is in error today. Whether it be modern inline MLs or crossbows both are now well accepted in many places and neither has resulted in the decimation of the deer population, quite the contrary. Maybe when the primitive seasons were started thirty odd yrs ago that was the point, and I understand that in some states out west there are still restrictions to keep it "primitive", but today in many parts of the US, esp in the east, the point is game management. No matter how "easy" you think it is there are still fewer hunters in ML and Archery than in rifle season. Here in TN archery and ML season is doe season, in MS they've completely done away with the ML requirement and only require that it be a single shot of .35 cal or larger I think, (which by the way has resulted in a HUGE resurgence of the 35 Whelen). The major benefit of these seasons is population control.

In the last three yrs I've harvested 4 does in ML season with a Knight rolllingblock, this yr I've switched to a Savage MLII. Loaded with a 250 Sabot over 70gr of IMR4198 it makes about 2400FPS and I can shoot dead hold all the way out to 200 yards with a 175 yard zero. It's +2 at 100 and about -2 at 200. I like it. I'll be carrying it on a Management area quota hunt next weekend. Hopefully I can tag two more.

As for flirting with Darwin, shooting a ML designed for smokeless is not, shooting smokeless in a firearm not designed for it is not just flirting, it's going to end badly.

Nope, sorry no error. The original set aside early primitive weapons seasons were established to allow primitive weapons hunters a separate season apart from the high power hunters. It was originally lobbied and pressed politically and sold from the standpoint of PRIMITIVE, LIMITED EFFECTIVENESS hunting. Since then it has morphed into a gadget and technology race to simply TAKE ADVANTAGE and market and sell gadgets. It was never envisioned as a high powered single shot hunting opportunity type season. At least one State gave up fighting with having to re-write regs to keep up with the techno-race and went simply with a "Single Shot Whatever" reg. In those States that have too many deer in certain areas such means may be just another tool for herd reduction- not sport hunting, only depredation killing (or to some, simple target practice or bragging rights for total kill talley. Unfortunate that in those instances where deer are labeled and treated as vermin to a point where sport hunting and the basic hunter ethic is lost.

Simple as that.

[leeggen]

I have noticed that several people have given Wilkie a real thrashion for his info request. Several have staighted you'll blow your hand off or you'll get a breech plug in the face. Now my question is have any of you known, personally anyone that has been injurd by doing this???? Don't get me wrong I myself would not try this. I have shot really heavy slugs out of my 54TC using bp. I also noticed a couple on here that said they us FFF in their mz. I don't remember reading in the mz spec's that FFF was to be used. So are youany different than the guy trying smokeless??? Think about it, you are not f0llowing the rules either. But noone climbed your back about it or jumped to the conclussion like people did to Wilkie. He ask a simple question ,just for info., as I have done an got the same trashing.as I have gotten. My point is take the time to answer the question without jumping off the deep end. Wilkie what is comes down to is the steel in the mz just can't handle the fast increase in presure that smokless can do in comparson to bp. That is just the bottom line. IMO it is like loading a 3030 case full of bulseye in stead of 3031. The final results might not be so good, and the gamble to me is not worth it at might happen.just to see wh
CD

[johnson1942]

wilkie, a while back you asked, what is the biggest bullet and the powder you put behind it? i have a custom side lock i built my self. the barrel is 30 inches long and 1 and 1/8th diam. it is .50 cal. and 1/23 twist. i have shot alot a 720 grain paperpatch bullets in it with 110 grains of 2f black behind it. i now shoot 683 grain pp bullet with 100 grains of 2f black. its not even uncomfortable to shoot.i never felt it was unsafe to shoot. the barrel is modern rifle barrel steel. i gave my son a high end custom inline .50 cal muzzle loader that recommends smokeless powder. never felt comfortable with that. we shoot blackhorn 209 in it and it will never shoot smokeless. why chance it. the 209 powder give a 250 grain pistol bullet 2200 ft per sec. and is tack driveing accure. why go to smoke less. i use a light load of reloader 7 (37) grains in my 45/70 and feel good about that, it is a cpa modern steel gun. some people like to risk things in everything they do, i dont, the odds will catch up to you some day. a guy told me once, i always knew i was going to die, i just didnt know it was today.

[ShooterAZ]

I read an article by E.C. Harris on the Ruger Old Army. He stated that when Ruger was doing their proof testing that they used a full cylinders of Bullseye powder....and the gun held. I don't know if this is true or not, but the pressures must have been enormous if it is!

[swheeler]

I have been reloading brass cartridges from .223 to 350 Win Mag. and everything in between for a while now. This muzzleload thing is an enigma. Why in the world can we not work up loads in these weapons using smokeless? I've seen the videos of the CVA guy loading up 100 grains of a pistol powder and blowing up a bunch of guns saying to never use smokeless....well duh. If I loaded up my .45 with that many grains of powder under a .452 bullet, it would blow up too. So I can load up a 500 grain bullet with 100 grains of bp in a .50 ML and no one even blinks. What are the pressures these guns are under? Surely we are up over 30,000 cup or more. I don't understand why.....I need help understanding what is really going on in my weapon.

Just say no! What is a 350 Win Mag anyhoo????

[Tackleberry41]

I understand the OPs question. Why not? Okay well metallurgy seems to be one of the answers. There are some pretty questionable ML rifles out there. And unlike smokeless weapons dont seem to be any actual standards or testing done. From what I have read, they make a rifled tube and say you can put this much powder in it, tho they never actually tested it to say yea it will do it. I know my old CVA came with instructions saying 120gr of 3f substitute, not that you could hit the side of a house with it that way, but CVA said it was safe. And probably a good amount of that was burned outside the muzzle anyways.

Now most reloading manuals will show smokeless data thats well under the pressure limit for a 45 colt. I know some have stated the pressure wave is different, would agree with that. But if the metallurgy aspect is removed, a savage or custom gun built from a proper barrel blank. Or like many of us do put a conversion cylinder in a cap and ball revolver. Sticking with only properly weighed charges just like you would for say a 45 colt, not compressing the charge, is it still a trip to the hospital waiting to happen?

Lets say, end of world, no BP to be had, a modern well made cap and ball gun(Ruger), properly loaded smokeless (trail boss comes to mind). Completely unsafe at any speed?

[10 ga]

I have 6 ML designed specifically for smokeless powder. There is a world of difference in shooting BP/subs ML from smokeless ML. I would never shoot smokeless in a ML designed and intended for BP/subs. I have been present at 3 different catastrophic gun failures and 1 of them was with BP in a traditional ML and the other 2 were CF. All were bad. Smokeless ML are certainly safe if properly treated. All of the horrific failures of the smokeless ML that have been so publicized have been attributed to operator error. When properly used BP usually produces from 9K to 15K PSI in rifles of 40 to 69 cal. Years of testing have shown that appropriate smokeless loads produce from 15K to 45K PSI and some loads may be higher. Some powders are OK and some are not. As a response to tackleberry41, Trailboss is totally unsafe for any ML use as it is not intended for compressed loads and compression at loading is necessary for any safe ML shooting. Smokeless ML is not for everybody but for some of us it's the only way to go. Since I got my 1st Savage MLII in 07 I've shot a LOT of ml but very little BP. Best to all, 10

[dtknowles]

I understand the OPs question. Why not? ............
Lets say, end of world, no BP to be had, a modern well made cap and ball gun(Ruger), properly loaded smokeless (trail boss comes to mind). Completely unsafe at any speed?

A better question would be who would be willing to risk destroying a few good guns to show that it works or does not work. It would be a model specific development program. Buy 5 or so random Ruger Old Army revolvers, build a machine rest to hold the guns and put flack shields around the machine rest. Start working up loads, fired remotely from behind the flack shields, going all the way to what you decide is proof levels and beyond to failure. Pressure data and or strain gage measurements would be very valuable. Keep very good records, pictures, video, etc.

Is there a way to make it work safely, very likely, but no way to be sure until properly tested. Would I hold the gun and fire the first smokeless loads, never. Would I pursue this development, no point, no profit, of little value to shooters in general, much more interesting projects elsewhere. Trail Boss might or might not be a good choice, if things went well with Trail Boss and the development showed that you could not put enough Trail Boss in the chambers to hurt the gun, Woo Hoo, you could have a winner but Trail Boss produces higher pressures than other powders for the same velocity. Small charges of medium/fast pistol powder could get the ball out the barrel with very low pressures.

After all that you have only shown that it could be ok in Ruger Old Army revolvers and then thousands of more test would be needed to develop high confidence.

That is my thoughts on how it could be done and done right.

Oh, and if it all went well and a set of loads was developed that allowed the safe use of smokeless powder in Ruger Old Army revolvers someone would more than likely go outside the published data or accidentally double charge those big hole and blow up a gun and hurt themselves or someone would use the data and think they could do it to an import cap and ball revolver and blow up the gun, etc.

Tim

oh, by the way. End of the World, all we will have is home made back powder.