S&W Model 60

[Jeff82]

I'm thinking about getting an S&W model 60. I'm mostly interested in trying out a snubnose at the range. I'd plan on using light 357 loads. does anyone have any thoughts on this gun? For me these things seem to always come down to Ruger versus S&W.

Thanks,

--Jeff

[DaveCampbell]

The Model 60 will recoil more than the Rugers--it's a simple matter of physics; the Rugers are heavier. I have a '70s-vintage Model 60 that I carried for years. It's in semi-retirement now that I have a Model 340PD (a 13-ounce .357). I prefer the lighter model because I most often carry it in a pocket, sans holster, and the lighter gun doesn't print as much.

Take your own advice, if possible, and try each one at the range. The more informed you are, the better your choice will fit you.

-----------------------------------------------

Promoting and gun-buyback program because you think there are too many guns on the street is akin to castrating yourself because you don't like the neighbors' kids.

[codgerville@zianet.com]

I have a 3" Model 60 that I really like. I shoot medium power 357 loads in it, although I tried 38 Special a time or two but wasn't impressed with the accuracy with them. Very accurate with 357, and comfortable to shoot.

[Petrol & Powder]

Jeff82, your post doesn't give much of a clue about what you are seeking. I'm a big fan of snubnose revolvers but they aren't my first choice for a range/plinking gun. They're really not designed to be fun to shoot but rather more dedicated self-defense tools, a role I believe they excel at filling.
The model 60 is a stainless steel version of the blued steel model 36 "chief's special". The 2" guns are best suited as a concealable self defense tool and in that arena, I far prefer an internal hammer, DAO model such as a model 640, 442, 40 or 42. Others will certainly voice a different opinion and that's fine. The models with a 3" barrel are a little easier to shoot but at that barrel length I would just step up to a K-frame.
A good shooter can achieve excellent results with a snubnose J-frame but it is a demanding tool to master when compared to a K-frame S&W. The Rugers are outstanding guns and the SP-101 is a joy to shoot but a little heavy and large for pocket carry.
Another snubnose option that people often forget are the 2" barreled K-frames like the model 10, model 64 and if you can find one, the lightweight model 12.
Can you provide a little information about your quest? Self defense, concealed carry, plinking, just plain want one?

[Mk42gunner]

My thoughts on a S&W Model 60 in .357 Magnum? Carry a lot and shoot as little as possible.

I will admit that I have not fired one chambered in .357; but I have fired a 2" Model 36, and didn't particularly care for the recoil impulse, even with the Navy's issue 130 gr FMJ loads.

Robert

[Jeff82]

Thanks for the input.

My reason for wanting a Model 60 is that I think they would be challenging to shoot well on the pistol range. CCW is a second reason wanting a snubnose. My favorite CCW option currently is an NAA mini-magnum revolver. I'm also trying to round out my shooting experiences, and one of the things I've haven't spent much time with is J-frame revolvers. I really trry to stick to 0.357 for all of my shooting just standardize my casting/reloading operation. I'd probably work up mild loads for a snubnose revolver. I had thought about possibly going with a Ruger LCR in 357, but I'm not sure how well it would hold up to heavy volume use. I've heard they may have problems with flame cutting of the top strap over time.

Anyway, my interest in the Model 60 is threefold: shooting at the range, CCW and to round out my firearms experience.

[novalty]

I purchased a Ruger SP101 last year for my CCW and agree they aren't meant as a range play toy. The sites are better than some, but still find it is designed more for instinctual aiming--which makes sense as a confrontation in close quarters isn't going to lend itself to a lot of time working site alignment.

[KCSO]

357 won't be pleasant to shoot from the little guns but if you miss your target at close range you can always fry them with muzzleblast. I prefer accuracy to sheer power so i use 38 Special 158 grain hollow points at 750 fps in my little snubbie. I carry an airweight with the shrouded hammer as a back up. With practice they are accurate to 50 yards.

[Jeff82]

Interesting, I really wanted a Model 36 classic after seeing one at the gun shop, but didn't want to buy new die plates, dies and a lock-out to allow for 38 caliber reloading. So, that's why I'm looking at a Model 60.

I'm a big Ruger fan. I used to carry a Security-Six back in the eighties when I was a LEO (along with S&W K-frame 38s). Loved it. Now I shoot a 357 Blackhawk 6.5" and love it. Lately, I've been on the kick of wanting to only shoot the classic firearms of the past (model 10, 27s, 36s, etc) more than the best of current design and technology. But in the end, they still have to shoot well and comfortably at the range, hold up to heavy use, and fit into my reloading scheme. Not sure that makes any sense, but that's what I'm trying to think my way through.

[Petrol & Powder]

For a CCW the DAO J-frames are good fighting tools. They conceal well, are easy to use under stress and are very dependable. I'm in the camp with KCSO when it comes to snubnose revolvers and .357 loads. I prefer the old 38 Special 158 LHP +P "FBI" load even when I have the option of .357 magnum. I completely understand your desire to keep your reloading logistics simple and applaud that effort. Shooting .357 in a small revolver can be challenging but as you pointed out, you can load the cartridge on the mild side.
I will say that the Ruger SP-101 is extremely well made and If I had to go with .357 mag. in a small revolver, that would probably be near the top of my list. You can get a S&W model 640 in .357 and that wouldn't be a bad compromise but if you could tolerate just a little more weight and bulk,...how about a DAO, bobbed hammer on a 2.5" S&W model 19 or 66 ?
Just out of curiosity, what type of reloading press are you using?

[Jeff82]

For years I used a Lee single stage press to reload my 357s. I usually shoot 250 rounds per outing. So, casting, reloading and getting things turned around quickly became challenging. I now reload with a RCBS Pro-2000 progressive press manually indexed. I don't break any speed records with this, but it has sped up the process, and I think it also has been producing a better quality cartridge.

[Petrol & Powder]

The RCBS Pro-2000 is a good press. Like the Dillon 550 I use, the RCBS can quickly be re-configured but as you point out, it requires more than just dies to do so. With a single stage press, a simple spacer under the die lock ring was the solution but it's not that easy on a progressive press. Your plan to simplify all of your reloading by using .357 brass makes sense for your setup. A caliber conversion would be a solution if you really wanted to load 38 & .357 - but there would be some cost to that option.
Considering your duel goals of CCW & .357 magnum length cases, I think the SP101 with a spurless hammer would be my 1st choice (2.25" barrel and about 25 ounces) and a S&W model 640 (2.125" barrel, about 22.5 ounces and just a little shorter overall than the SP101). Both are strong revolvers that are chambered for the .357 mag cartridge that can be concealed.

[rintinglen]

Snubnosed 357 revolvers were created by orthopedic surgeons to drum up business. Buy a 38 and be happy.

3 or 4 7/8" washers, 1/8" thick will take care of the adjustment issue to allow you to reload 357 or 38 specials with the same die set. The 38 special is much less punishing. I have 6 2 inch snubbies, a 2 1/2 incher and a 3 incher--none are .357's. My .357s start at 4 inches, and really don't come into their own until they get up around 6 inches.

[Petrol & Powder]

Snubnosed 357 revolvers were created by orthopedic surgeons to drum up business. Buy a 38 and be happy.

.

/\ I KNEW IT! And if the orthopedic surgeons invented the .357 magnum snubby then the really greedy orthopedic surgeons invented the aluminum alloy/titanium cylinder .357 snubbies!!

[cwheel]

You all must have a newer version of the model 60, mine will only take 38spcl. Quite happy with this older one, shoots well to point of aim, easy to use as a CCW. I can shoot hundreds stout reloads in a session with no troubles. If I want recoil, I break out my little model 66 with a 2" barrel, after 20-30 shots with stout .357's, I'm more than ready to put it down for the day. A lite weight .357 in a model 60 has to kick like a mule with full power loads.
Chris

[Crash_Corrigan]

I had a Taurus Model 85 with the aluminum frame as a lightweight. I ground off the hammer spur and loaded with Federal 129 gr P+ loads in Hydra Shok configuration I had everything I needed in a self defense firearm. It was light, small, easily fit into a pocket, accurate out to 40 if I did my part and was comfortable to shoot even after 100 rounds. It was a great little gun.

Now I am older, slower, fatter and my eye is not as good.....so I carry a 1911 Taurus in .45 ACP loaded with Federal Hydra-Shok 230 GR self defense rounds.

The gun has one in the chamber and 7 in the magazine. On my belt are a pair of 10 round McCormick power mags. This gun is carried with a clip it device which allows inside the pants carry with a clip over the belt. Very comfortable and easily concealable even with the big 1911 frame. People should not piss off old guys as we can be really mean and nasty when provoked.

[Ohio Rusty]

I have and carry the S&W 360 ... the scandium .357 with the steel cylinder. It is definitely a bundle of bang !! I definitely do not feel under gunned and this is my main ccw carry gun. Lightweight, easy to carry, real easy to conceal in the belt or pocket and the .357 has one of the highest ratings when it comes to stopping a bad guy according to the FBI.
Ohio Rusty ><>

[Petrol & Powder]

I have no doubt concerning the effectiveness of the .357mag., it has an outstanding track record. I'm also very fond of snubnose revolvers as self defense tools. I prefer the 38 Special variety of snubnose for that job, but the original poster wanted: 1. A snubnose revolver & 2. One that could chamber a .357 magnum length cartridge. (to keep his reloading logistics simple) The SP101 would fill that need nicely but there are a lot of options out there.
Rintinglen offered both some comedy [smilie=s: and some sound reloading advice for the OP.
Personally, I'll stick with the 158gr LHP in 38 Special +P for serious social work. The .357 loadings can push a lighter bullet out of a 2" tube faster.......but it's just not for me.
A few years ago S&W made a Niteguard chambered in 38 Special that was basically a new version of the old model 12 with a better frame alloy, I really wish I could have snagged one of those. Oh well.
I've owned and shot a bunch of S&W, Colt and Ruger short barreled revolvers and there's a lot of cool stuff out there to fill that need. I carry a 442 but I really like the snubnose K-frames and SP101's when I can get away with them.
This is a good topic and I think the Original Poster would benefit from more input and I know I'd would be interested as well.:drinks:

[johniv]

I usually carry a Ruger SP101 3" in a belt holster everyday. I think the 101 is the lightest 357 that I want to shoot. I usually carry 38+p ammo and shoot this gun every week , about 50 to 100 rds handloads with 3.5 gr of Bullseye. ATT I have about 10,000 rds thru it, and it was used when I got it. The revolter shows "zero" wear that I can detect,BUT even in the 2,25" spurless version , I couldent carry this gun in my pocket, but a S&W mod 60 2" , maybe.
FWIW
John

[winelover]

My first snubbie purchased was a model 60 in 38 Spl. Learned a lot from it in terms of likes and dislikes. Made some modifications. Mostly to the grips. Made new ones out of Micarta, fashioned after a Bianchi shrouded design, and added a Tyler T-grip. Had to do something with that exposed hammer. Still too heavy for daily carry, IMO.


83984

83983



My latest , the model 642, addresses all the drawbacks of the model 60, including weight. It is a joy to carry and recoil is not much more in 38 Spl. Crimson Trace Laser Grips (old style) are a must for low light.


83985


The 357 (model 60) costs $250 more (retail), weighs in at 22.5 ozs. (about 1 1/2 times more) and doesn't come with shrouded hammer.


Winelover

[warboar_21]

I bought a 3" model 60 for the wife thinking she would be happy shooting it vs. the 6" model 66 that I currently have. She would complain about her pinky going numb and her palm hurting after a few cylinders of standard pressure 38s. She put the gun down and never wanted to shoot it anymore. It had the uncle mikes rubber grip on it so decided to try swapping out to the hogue grip. She still didn't like it. I decided I was going to get some use out of it and started shooting it. After putting around 50 rounds through it or so my ring and pinky finger were numb. They would stay numb for a week or so. I decided to trade it off for something useful after that. Traded it for a super red hawk in 480 Ruger and $100 in cash in my pocket.
I think the grip in the Ruger sp101 feels better than the smith personally. I could put a box of win white box 357 through it and have no complaints. Not the case with the smith.

[Jeff82]

How do the SP101 and the Model 60 compare in terms of size and trigger pull? Is is practical to use the Model 60 for pocket carry? It sounds like the SP101 is too big for pocket carry.

[Petrol & Powder]

How do the SP101 and the Model 60 compare in terms of size and trigger pull? Is is practical to use the Model 60 for pocket carry? It sounds like the SP101 is too big for pocket carry.

I've owned and shot both model 60's and SP101's. The out of the box trigger on both is rather heavy in my opinion; but they can be improved. The SP101 is slightly larger and noticeably heavier than the model 60. The SP101 is a good revolver but a tad large/heavy for pocket carry, In My Opinion.
The real issue is the hammer spur. I'm going to ruffle some feathers here but it needs to be said - hammer spurs and pocket carry do not work together. In fact, IMHO an exposed hammer on any small revolver used as a CCW is a bad idea. Snub nosed revolvers used for self defense should be DAO with internal hammers or bobbed "spurless" hammers. I'm sure someone will chime in and say they've carried a "fill in the blank" revolver in their pocket, with a hammer, for the last 120 years and it works fine for them.
For me, exposed hammers and pocket carry do not go together.
The spurless model of the SP101 would work but it is bigger and heavier than the S&W 640. The alloy framed, internal hammer Smith's such as the 642 or 442 models are both light weight and snag-proof but they are chambered for 38 Special only Which is fine in my opinion. The SP101 is a great revolver and very well made, just not as small as a S&W J-frame.

[Groo]

Groo here
I have both a 2 1/4 in SP101 and a 3in m-60 Pro.
Although I have shot 38's in them I now shoot only 357 short barrel or full up 357mags only.
If you use a grip that fits, the kick is not a problem.
I [due to too much magnum shooting with bad fitting grips] can't shoot any S&W wood grip.
All my guns have Rubber , Hogue , or Pachmayr grips [ usually pac's]
My SP101 I set up for a trail gun with gold front sight, laser grips and 4 port Magnaport system and do shoot 180-200 gr cast 357's.
The pro is easer to hit with due to the longer barrel and porting was not needed as the Pac's work well.

[Jeff82]

Thinking about this, I did some quick calculations on recoil force for an SP-101 using some loadings for 158-grain lead bullet and Bullseye powder. My Ruger Blackhawk will launch a 158-grain RNFP bullet at 1,160 fps. This equates to about 4.6 lbs of recoil force directed back into my hand. Ignoring things like how that recoil is directed, and Groo's excellent point about the quality of the grips, I'll use this figure as a point of comparison.

My Lee reloading manual gives a velocity of 838 fps for a minimum loading of Bullseye in a 357. The resulting recoil force should be about 4.1 lbs. This compares to about 3.8 f-lbs from a 38-special loaded to be max with Bullseye powder (velocity = 814 fps). Seems like the minimum loaded 357 cartridge would be about the same as a smartly loaded 38-special cartridge, and the recoil force would be less than my preferred Ruger Blackhawk loading.

These are just my musings, but does this make sense?

[km101]

I have tried the .357 loads in the J frame S&W s and I found that the muzzle blast and recoil were more than I liked even with Pachmyer grips. I shoot the 125 gr. JHP in .38 spl. in both my model 36 and my model 60. I get good velocity and good accuracy in both guns @ 15 yds.

And since these are CCW guns, I am not worried about anything past that distance. Most self defense shootings are 3's! 3 feet or less, 3 rounds or less, so I feel that the .38 loads have adequate stopping power and help minimize over penetration.

[Petrol & Powder]

Jeff82 - I'm not sure what those recoil numbers mean in the real world. I come from a long line of engineers and I understand quantifying a force in a measurable unit but I'm not convinced that has a lot of bearing in perceived recoil. Regardless of those numbers, the difference in recoil & velocity between a hot 38 Special +P 158 gr load and a severely downloaded .357 magnum 158 gr load fired from the same 2" barrel is likely to be negligible. The real difference is the 0.135" extra case length and the guns that can accept that longer cartridge. If you're going to download a .357 cartridge to damn near 38 +P velocity, why not just get a 38 Special revolver? There are a lot more options for guns if you drop your self imposed requirement for a .357 magnum capable snubnose.
I understand your desire to be able to load just one length cartridge (.357mag) but I think you're engaging in some serious personal justification to purchase a particular gun.

[hardy]

Hi Jeff,on the well known principle that one size doe,s NOT fit all it depends on how much range work or carry you intend.The Model 60s that I,ve owned have been very accurate but a PITA to shoot more than 30 or so rounds,these being 38 Special.The SP101 I can shoot all day with a mix of 38s and medium 357s.The hot 357s are no fun,2 chamberfuls being enough,BUT you,ll get lots more trigger time.As for CC, an inside the waist band rig will,IMHO,"print" the same as pocket carry.I don't like the idea of fumbling to get at your gun when the balloon goes up!Depends on the climate where you live,I understand.So,long story short,it depends on what your intentions are.My first Father-in-law asked me that.LOL Mike P.S. Others will be along soon with their opinions.Good Luck

[Jeff82]

I think I'm coming to the conclusion that I'm trying to get too many things out of one gun/caliber, and size versus ease of carry. The SP-101 seems the better choice, at least for comfort and all day shooting.

[luvtn]

I have had J frame sized charter arms .38's, I now have a Ruger SP-101. Recoil for me is not a problem. I carry and practice with 125 gr. JHP . When in the woods I carry 158 gr lswc over 13.5 grs of 2400. Although the Charters carried easier, I much prefer the Ruger.
luvtn

[Rodfac]

I've got a full steel frame S&W M60 with a 3" barrel and full length barrel lug. Full house loads with 158 gr JHP's are no fun, and a cpl cylinders of practice with them is about all anyone I know can handle. 125 grainers aren't much better...recoil with either is substantial, but manageable, and muzzle blast is a real eye-opener especially late in the day. That said, I've carried a M36 Smith with the same 3" barrel for years as my CCW. I used +P loads, 125 grainers in it and got good expansion at close in SD distances. I moved up to the M60 for its SS construction, a big plus here in the humidity of a KY summer, and for it's better penetration and enhanced expansion with .357 Magnum JHP's.

Neither gun is a pocket gun for weight and bulk issues unless you're a paratrooper!. For that matter, even the lightweight alloy framed hammerless models aren't all that useful from a pocket. If you haven't tried to draw and fire one, in a true time critical (inside 21 feet) close up SD practice session, you'll get a quick education in fumbling. For my money, a good OWB holster, built for the gun is the only answer. I've tried the IWB models and found them lacking...speed and safety are the primary issues, but even giving those issues a bye, I didn't find them that much better at concealment. Both IWB and OWB require some sort of clothing modification, whether it's a shirt tail out, or a jacket, to hide the weapon...and I'd opine that a pocket gun demands nearly the same...a big pocket with a dedicated pocket liner holster that will allow at least some sort of a draw without fumbling.

You pay your money and you take your choice, but for me, a good light weight OWB holster and a shirt tail out in hot weather, provides the best compromise: speed and easy access, with minimal printing. Here are the pics.

Best Regards, Rod

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii64/Rodfac/10-14-13001_zpscff840d5.jpg (http://s261.photobucket.com/user/Rodfac/media/10-14-13001_zpscff840d5.jpg.html)

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii64/Rodfac/Holster%20work/P1020395.jpg (http://s261.photobucket.com/user/Rodfac/media/Holster%20work/P1020395.jpg.html)

[bhn22]

I have a 649 in .357 mag. It is the stainless "Bodyguard" model, not to be confused with the el cheapo "Bodyguard" being reissued now. My gun is heavier than yours (so there!), and I have found that the best chance of controlling it with full power magnums lies in the grips. The 3 finger groove Uncle Mikes work great, they were designed for this gun in 357. Two finger groove grips are also available, and were standard on 38 Spl & smaller calibers. S&Ws compact two finger wooden "Combat" grips are nice to look at, but terrible to shoot. Pachmayrs "Compac" grip is probably the best compromise, and I've tried them all, or nearly so. As far as ammo goes, my gun is loaded with Winchesters 158 gr +P lead hollowpoint. I'd use Remingtons load too, but never Federals version, they seem to have difficulty with bullet hardness consistency, and often get their bullets too hard for reliable expansion in snubbies. I have shot a lot of Federal 158 gr 357 mag Hydrashocks in mine, and they shoot perfectly. Recoil is manageable with bigger grips like the 3 finger groove versions mentioned above, or the Compacs. With slick wood grips, I never knew which direction the muzzle would be pointing after a shot, so I gave them up. For all around range use, my choice is..... handloaded full wadcutters loaded to std 38 Spl velocities, around 850 FPS. Ed Harris was right!